NASCAR is NOT a SPORT!!!!
 

I'm sorry. It just isn't. I guess its like a game to me.

I used to love to play counter-strike. I was really good too. THen I heard people talk about how they were cyberathletes and all this crap. It didn't make them athletes.

Christ, even bowlers and golfers have to rely more on physical athleticism than racecar drivers.

It could be fun to you, and I guess I could consider it a game, but if our freaking fighter pilots aren't considered athletes (and they actually have to handle hardcore g-forces and that type of crap), how am I supposed to consider some fat / old racecar driver an athlete.

I'm done with this rant.
Wait till I start on golf.... though I do love that game.
Cheese

nice one hater.

it's not easy to spend 4+ hours in a hot car without an AC.

and if the car loses power steering, you will have to drive the whole race without power steering (you cant just quit the race!).

also, the fastest car on the track and the slowest car on the track is probably have a difference of 2 miles/hr or so.

sport (spôrt, sprt) n.
1.) a.) Physical activity that is governed by a set of rules or customs and often engaged in competitively.
b.) A particular form of this activity.
2.) An activity involving physical exertion and skill that is governed by a set of rules or customs and often undertaken competitively.
Does NASCAR require physical exertion? Yes.
Is it governed by a set of rules? Yes.
Is it undertaken competitively? Yes.
Therfore, NASCAR is a sport. Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it's not a sport.

I don't like soccer...can I not call it a sport anymore?

Uhhh, no, it's a sport (albeit a crappy one, sorry all you intnat'l fans, I just don't give a rat's arse about soccer).

archer, dj was mocking cheese :)

Dude, you forgot to mention g forces too. They can have a dramatic affect on a body too, especially after 4 hours.

cheese, the drivers in Nascar are in a LOT better physical condition than you think (and probably better than 75% of the population). the arm strength and endurance necessary to steer those cars (even with power steering) at 200mph for 4 continuous hours is demanding, to say the least. then you have all the footwork. even on a track like Taladega, which probably has the least amount of shifting necessary, these guys are on and off the clutch at least a dozen times every lap, or about every 40 seconds, give or take.

then there is the heat factor, as mentioned above.

you dont know what you are talking about.

many people dont have a clue on how much work goes into making one of these cars and how aerodynamic these are.

sometimes, a car going .10s of a minute faster can win the race.

there is a lot of work going into this and they have to practice also.

I love NASCAR, F1, and a lot of other racing series, but I don't look at them as sports for some reason.... It's racing, and it's in a league of it's own to me. Sorry, but you don't have to be in that great of shape to be a race car driver. These guys aren't even in as good a shape as me. They do need to be conditioned for the rigors of driving, but that's it. Although, they are in better shape than most people, but certainly not a basketball or football player.

Left, left, left, left.

Repeat five hundred times.

No thanks!

Hold up... let's not confuse 'SPORT' with 'ATHLETE'

Everyone is defining NASCAR as a 'sport' by citing athleticism. This is nice, but just cause someone is an ATHLETE doesn't mean he or she participates in a SPORT.

Why NASCAR is not a sport:
1. There are no set rules. Noone, including the participants, no if and when a race will end. This is because NASCAR is reluctant to end races under caution conditions. Sometimes they may just decide to through a red flag and stop the cars. Although unpopular, the rules should allow for the race to end under caution conditions - like any other sport, uniform rules.

2. There are no set rules. There are no set penalties for dealing with cheaters, and people seem to cheat every week. Usually, if you read every inch of the sports page, you will find that on Wednesday, NASCAR docks a team several points for this or that. It is not uniform, but arbitrary. Sports have rules, and enforce them. People seem very willing to cheat in NASCAR, and NASCAR is not willing to put a stop to it.

3. There are no set rules. Because racin' back to the start/finish line allows some competitors to get back on the lead lap, and is generally more excitin', NASCAR is reluctant to ban the practice. Again, noone really knows what the rules are.

4. I'm sure there are many, many others, but I don't follow it.

NASCAR is sports entertainment, just like wrestling. There are heros and villans (point-in-case, Kurt Busch, who drives like the late Earnhardt, but is somehow made a villian).

NASCAR is running a show, just like WWE is running a show. This is why they are reluctant to have actual rules - because you would need to enforce them. If Earnhardt Jr. runs an illegal set-up, you'd need to enforce it by taking away his race points and banning him from the next stop. But this would ruin the next show.

NASCAR is not a sport because it doesn't have uniform rules.

Part Two:

Still keeping SPORT and ATHLETE seperate because they ARE exclusive of each other.

If NASCAR drivers are athletes:
... so are fighter pilots and submariners.
... they are poor athletes. These guys, no matter the stress on their bodies, are not world-class track-and-filed athletes.
... so are the guys that race at your local dirt track every weekend. They shift just as much, probably more - and although their speeds aren't as high they don't have alot of the comforts.

I have no opinion on whether or not NASCAR drivers are athletes. This is because it depends on your definition of an athlete. If your definition is, say, "men and women who prepare for strenuous activity by training, both mentally and physically for the task at hand," then they are athletes. But so are alot of people. It's just a broad definition.

If your definition is more narrow, NASCAR drivers and submariners probably don't make the cut. This is okay to. It just depends on your definition.

I take it back. Many people don't know what kind of shape one must be in to play a 12 hour straight clan tournament for an fps game like counter strike. Being in my 20's, my back isn't quite what it used to be, and after 12 hours straight of sitting in an ergonomically incorrect position without a gelpad for my mouse, a lumbar support for my back, I am really starting to feel my age. I am SO very impressed with those older "cyber atheletes" that really must condition their hands so that they don't blister, do situps for back support, that can still manage to compete with the younger crowd. You also don't realize what kind of technological edge even the smallest configuration can give you. My team of computer mechanics has situated me next to a DS3 so that my ping time is miniscule. They have cooled my computer with a liquid nitrogen cooling unit and overclocked it by over 800 mhz. When I tire, they wipe the sweat from my brow, feed me water, and soda--the fuel of the cyberathelete--to keep me going.
In an intense night of cybergaming, I may have to go without soda for several rounds, even though I am tired. If a new video card comes available between tourneys, they rush out and grab the latest and greatest and then we swap it with the old card, after applying the latest heat sink and overclocking it, of course. Its tough to compete.
You guys really don't realize how in shape you have to be to compete at the top level.
I'd say the top cyberathlete is in better shape than 75% of the population. The difference between the best and the worst can be just a few frags. You have the bad boys, that talk shit and may be good for the drama of the sport. Then you have the quiet guys that just go out there and prove their worth with their play. Sometimes, the difference between winning and losing can come down to how much you can get out of your front side bus? Just the other day, I probably had a 2 fps edge over my opponets and was in first place, only to have my ram crap out on me in the last game because I had my bus speed set too high.


I know, sounds stupid, right?
Cheese

Yes, very stupid.

Oh, and completely different from NASCAR.

I also hate NECK-CAR. The mullet racing league.

If they mixed in a right turn now and again.... nah it'd still suck.

Notice how all NECKCAR drivers are called Kyle, Dale, Jeff or Bobby??

You're right. In one, you're sitting in a metal box.
In the other, you're staring at a plastic one.

Cheese

cheesemoney, I hate NASCAR too. I'm from New York, where nobody gives two shits about racing. Then I get stationed in Tennessee. Florida and Virginia for 8 years, and have had this argument about a thousand times with the rednecks I've met. I've been forced to watch a race (as part of a deal where some Billy Bob had to sit through a Yankees-Sox game, with running commentary by me) so we could each understand the other one's sport better. I have to admit, you DO need to be in great physical condition to drive in a race. NASCAR drivers are extremely susceptible to becoming dehydrated during a race. They are routinely subjected to hot in-car temperatures of up to 130 F and usually have a hard time replacing all the fluid and electrolytes they lose through sweat. A NASCAR driver can lose 3 quarts, or 6 pounds of fluid during a three-hour race, or as much as a professional football player can lose during a three-hour practice. I doubt ANY video gamer has ever dehydrated like that.

I agree with gov, much of NASCAR is set up, like Earnhardt Jr. winning at Daytona the year after his father died, the rule changes from race to race designed to keep some drivers down, others up, and the general way NASCAR is marketed.

I don't like NASCAR. I hate it. If it could disappear tomorrow, I'd be willing to give up the NHL in exchange so I'd never have to hear about this driver or see Calvin peeing on a number or Jeff Gordon on the Pepsi machine at the exchange. There are millions of people who agree with me. But that doesn't make it not a sport, cheese.

And please, STOP comparing it to playing video games. In fact, don't mention them again in this thread because it makes you sound juvenile and asinine.

-Mikey

Ahhhhhhh........what a terrible thread. Comparing playing video games to driver a car at 180+ mph for 3-4 hours.

Good thread Cheese

Did I dream that I just read this thread or is it for real.

I just have to say...Swing a Golf club...Or throw a bowling ball down an alley...Or have your little 12 hour gaming session,Then try racing a car in Nascar or any other racing series and tell me which takes more of being in top physical shape.

And comparing any sport to a video game...Well that's just...Stupid.

NACSAR probably puts the body through more punishment than any other sport.

the race ends when a car crosses the start-finish line on the final lap. they also end when rain comes in (but nascar warns at least 2 laps in advance of rain caused finishes). red flags are thrown when there is too much wreckage on the track for safe driving.

before the race, nascar tells the drivers the last lap where they would put the red flag down in case of a caution. after this lap expires, race will finish under yellow.

so, if the caution comes out after the preset lap #, the race WILL under caution.

it's pure judgemental, just like a baseball umpire calls a strike. can you pull up the same arguement for that?

also, look at where the umpire spots the ball in the NFL. it's judgemental and not always on the right spot. what about the fouls committed in nba? also a judgement call and some violations will be missed.


It's the lead car that determines whether or not to let another car get back on the lead lap. the leader usually ONLY allows cars that dont pose a challenge or are a member of the same team to pass when racing back to the caution.

yes, dale jr has been docked points and his crew chief fined for some minor violations. i dont think nascar has ever grounded a driver for minor violations on the car.

Not the same. The rules of baseball state that umpires call balls and stikes. Nascar just makes random judgement calls, with no rules to fall back on (there is not set procedure - in baseball it is understood (by rule) that the umpire will call balls and stikes, and will use his judgement).

In Nascar there are no rules for things that are NOT judgemental - like cheating.


Very much correct. But that is where the problem lies. Noone knows if racing back to the line will apply or not. This creates a potentially dangerous situation where some cars slow down and others speed up. But Nascar won't address it, they'd like as many cars as possible on the lead lap, it makes for a better show.

Not just Dale Jr. Almost every week someone is getting docked, and their crew chiefs are being fined. However, the owners normally pick up the fines, and the points aren't very severely cut. This is my biggest arguement - It cannot be a sport if teams as a whole conspire to break the rules, because the punishments are so insignificant, they don't even care. This makes it an exhibition, sports entertainment.

Then because of guys in the NFL football is just sports entertainment. See Julius Peppers.

Baseball would definately not be a sport. See: Ken Caminiti saying 75% of players use performance enhancing drugs. Or Ball Four where drug use is referred to many times.

How on earth did this thread get so far without a single George Carlin reference?

Jdoe

I seem to remember Julius Peppers, by rule, getting a four game suspension. He lost rookie of the year, which he would have won. His team missed the playoffs. He was embarrassed and chastised publically.

Every sport, job, or situation where there are humans will have cheaters. It's just a given. Nascar, however, has a culture of cheating that is not sport. Whole teams cheat -from the crew cheifs on down. I don't see them getting sidelined for four races, getting their points stripped, and getting their salaries taken for the events they missed.

These are real consequences for breaking rules. Nascar, nope, doesn't have them.


Ken Caminiti is a horse's ass. Please tell me we can all agree that we wouldn't take anything that he says for face value.

Again, cheating exists individually in every human pursuit. It is different in Nascar, for two reasons:
1. Whole teams cheat.
2. There are no severe consequences (rules) for doing so. Nascar is to scared to make them, let alone enforce them.

This undermines the credibility of Nascar as a 'sport'.

No sport
 

Despite the websters dictionary definition, I still can not bring myself to call Nascar a sport. When I am driving around in my car I do not consider myself an athlete, I am nothing more than a commuter.

Why is Nascar Sport's Entertainment?
Here is a nice, recent column:
http://www.montereyherald.com/mld/mo...ts/6610029.htm

Busch is NASCAR's newest villain
By SCOTT FOWLER
Charlotte Observer

BRISTOL, Tenn. - Kurt Busch is such a despised man among the NASCAR faithful right now that he even caused the fireworks to be booed Saturday night.

Have you ever seen 160,000 people boo while fireworks light up the sky? I hadn't either - not until Saturday night, when Busch was in Victory Lane and the boos of the fans couldn't be drowned out even by the firework explosions.

Busch is young, fast and controversial. Like it or not, he is NASCAR's newest villain. And he might as well like it.

Embrace the role, Kurt. Dale Earnhardt made a decent living playing it.

Racing - like wrestling and a great movie - always needs a good bad guy. But in NASCAR, there's been a black hole in the black hat lately.

Jeff Gordon got divorced, making him less perfect and more palatable. Tony Stewart got quiet and stopped winning races in bunches, making him an afterthought.

Somebody had to step into the void, and Busch stumbled into it this week with a series of defiant interviews. Then - and give him a ton of credit for this - he drove a superb race to win the Sharpie500 Saturday night in Bristol after a turmoil-filled week.

There was that one little problem Busch had with Sterling Marlin - the latest person Busch must apologize to after he accidentally wrecked Marlin in the 500. Marlin will have to get in line to be angry with Busch, however, who has performed the remarkable feat of being hit by a Jimmy Spencer punch eight days ago and nevertheless seeming like a bully.

"He's a cocky, arrogant punk," second-place finisher Kevin Harvick sneered about Busch after the race.

That comment smacks of the old story about a pot and a kettle. But Busch also angered some of the establishment racers with his comments about how flattening a fender - ruining another car's aerodynamics for your own benefit - is an accepted practice.

____________________________________________________

Remember when Vince McMahon swore for years up one side and down the other that (then) WWF wrestlin' was the real deal? That nothing was fixed? C'mon, you Nascar guys remember, you were watching.

This is Sport's Entertainment. It is marketed with Heros (Earnhardt, Jr - Stonecold) and Villans (Kurt Busch - Undertaker). There are "storylines" throughout, that build to a "climax". This isn't a pitcher battling a bater. This is soap opera stuff.

I posted the article above because I saw many like it after last weeks event. There is no discussion of 'points' or 'strategy' or anything else that factors into real sport. This is an article devoted to the entertainment side of Nascar. It serves no other purpose.

Nascar markets crashes. Crashes. Not "who will win the points." Fans cheer when people crash.

The author even admits Nascar has many "grey areas." This means no concrete rules.

I respect everyone's opinion on this board. Answer me one thing - why is it so important to everyone who is a Nascar fan that this be considered a sport?

so you're saying that nascar races are fixed?

if so, plz tell me how.


nascar has a lot of judgement calls.

how exactly are you gonna punish a guy that used an illegal spring to a guy whose wing was at an illegal angle?

it's a judgement call, but the races are not decided by judgement calls.

Whole teams cheat? They try to abide all rules, if they get caught with something is not like minor "this is off by a little" they fix it and come back. If it's something major, they're screwed for the entire weekend and lose points. That's a pretty severe consequences.

As for they don't make rules, neither does the NFL, NBA, MLB, NHL, even the NCAA. Someone messes up once and can the guys on ESPN look up in a rule book and report how long someone's going to be out? Nope. They need to wait a few weeks after the judgement, and the appeal to finally report how long someone's been suspended.

gov, that article can be written for any sport with a little bit of re-writing. You watch the NFL on ESPN or MNF's ad's and they'll have something very similar that tells why their game that week is going to be great and why you need to see it. It's basic marketing.

BTW, I'm not a NASCAR fan, but I still consider it a sport.

I totally agree. They work their asses off in NASCAR--it's okay if you don't like it, but you don't have to look down on it

I'll just be honest, i guess techinically it is a sport but i really don't enjoy watching it. There is just something about watching a bunch of racing cars go around a track over and over and over that seems to bore the crap out of me. But that's just me, i'm not really to into cars, so that's probably why.

I think you guys should just learn about f1 and leave nascar alone =P In reality though, yes race car drivers are atheletes. As much as boxers, distance runners, sprinters, football players; they are all atheletes. Race car drivers have to put up with dehydration due to heat and the physical force they exert from their body piloting a car in most cases above g loading of 2. (thats 2 times the regular force of gravity for you non math folks) I'm not exactly sure of the g loading that a nascar car can create but i figure around 2-3 for the speed they are going and the angle of the average oval. On the other hand open wheel cars will create 3-4gs around ovals and f1 cars around 4 gs per corner in most cases. Although its not comepletly consistant at these loadings (except for a f1 car where there are horizontal g forces applied constantly due to the cornering, acceleration and braking forces used) it is still a difficult job. (And my reasoning as to why f1 drivers are under a larger load is because oval drivers get breaks during the straight aways where there is not much g loading above 1 if any). Now f1 for example, the drivers are all on an extreme fitness training during the season, and have some
(if not the best) fitness trainers in the world working for them. Then there comes the mental aspect of racing. The most important of it all, in order for the physical part to work, you have to have an insane amount of concentration. To drive a car lap after lap on the very edge that a car can go for two to three hours is another difficult job. Thus when you combine the two i think of race drivers being just as atheltic as a baseball player who has to have the strength to hit a ball and the concentration to keep his eye on it and watch it connect to his bat.. Ok my rants over.


Oh and don't forget about motorcycle racers who throw their bodies around on a bike, they are atheletes too.

I think I will remain neutral in this... but honestly, left hand turns get rediculiously boring. Try and mix it up with some *gasp!* right hand turns.

nascar DOES go to 2 diff road courses twice a year.

Would be interesting to see nascar do some street parades.

that would be sweet (have you seen the dale jr commercial? where jr drops this guy off as a designated driver in the budweiser car?)

Sport or not theres entirely too much valuable network time devoted to a bunch of cars going around and around and around and around and around and around and around and around and around and around and around and around and around and around andaround around and around and around and around and around and around and around and around and around and around and around and around and around and around and around around and around and around and around and around and around and around and around and around and around and around and around and around and around and around around and around and around and around and around and around and around and around and around and around and around and around and around and around and around around and around and around and around and around and around and around and around and around and around and around and around and around and around and around around and around and around and around and around and around and around and around and around and around and around and around and around and around and around, get the idea?

I do not consider it a sport either, while the drivers may be some type of an athlete they are not involved in a sport in my opinion, however my lil anology at the end here calls it a sport, sorry its all i could think of

Non Athletic Sport Centered Around Rednecks

Hmm, let's see now, driving around and around and around and around isn't a sport. Then, let's see, the 4x100, 4x1600 and all other "track" relay events aren't sports either then, right?

I used to like Nascar, but, I agree with the rules stuff. Let's see, Jeff Gordon and Little E drop below the yellow line at Talledaga but nothing happens to them. Hmm, hereos and villians right? And don't give me that "They were pushed down" B.S. I watched the tape over and over and over and Little E was NOT pushed below the yellow line. The fact that he then went on to win the race made it even more galling.

The other thing that's really pissed me off is the Spencer/Busch fight. Busch talks trash, says on the radio he purposely tried to ruin Spencer's car by pushing in the fenders, shuts his car off in front of Spencer's trailer, mouths off (caught on the in car camera audio) and gets his lights punched out and Spencer gets suspended? WTF.

One last thing. If it's not sports entertainment, then why did Benny, Allen and "Wally the Washout" spend Bristol night talking about how mad everyone was going to get and how they were disappointed no one threw a hissy fit? Pure, unadulterated bullshit.

There's too much money involved right now. Sponsers pick the drivers now, not the team owners.

All superstars get excepted from rules, or some are especially watched in case of a rule infraction. This is not something that is isolated to just NASCAR. If NASCAR is sports entertainment, then so is the NHL and NFL, they market big hits and fights (more so the NHL) it's just smart business because this is what people want to see.

I'm not saying it's not a sport, i just don't particularly enjoy watching it. I do however like racing. (Just ask the local po-po they love chasing me.)

Jimmy Spencer's suspension
Vs.
Kevin Harvick's fine

Discuss

(Yes, that IS heavy sarcasm you detect!)

ok, from a non-American perspective... NASCAR is ridiculous.

its not televised here, unless theres a major accident (which seems to be a lot).

but all the other vision we see of it, is simply a massive pack of big cars racing around a track, in formation.

is there tactics, or strategy? or is it just to see who can last the longest driving around that track without crashing into the car next to him?

i'm sure that u remember harvick's suspension last year for an incident in the truck series.

harvick did not do any physical injury to ricky rudd.

There's more strategy when people think. In F1 the drivers are pushed to the limit, in NASCAR the cars are pushed to the limit. Another thing in NASCAR that interests people is the contact, Bristol is basically a big bumper car race. People also like watching NASCAR because they can see the whole race in the stands, not just a single turn.

No way. Rally racing puts you through WAY more hell than NASCAR. You're doing everything the NASCAR drivers are doing except you're driving over rough, boulder-strewn dirt or ice tracks that you've probably never seen before and are a hair away from crashing throughout the race. You're also taking huge jumps at 130+mph and dealing with the resulting crash back to earth. You're going faster on rough bumpy roads than most people ever go on pavement, and on top of all that, you don't HAVE power steering.

Then there's F1, which is as punishing as NASCAR, only you have to learn how to turn right AND your speeds are a good deal higher, meaning all the forces on your body are higher. Added to the fact that if you're a fatass you can't even fit in your car.

Oh and by the way, ever seen a Baja race? "Ironman" Stewart is getting up there in years but he's in better shape than most young guys. You try driving a bouncing, jumping truck at over 100 mph for 1,000 miles (that's more than 10 hours when you count pitstops, etc) on a narrow dirt barely-there track, taking a huge jump around every 3 minutes and in general getting the living hell beat out of you by your own truck, and then tell me how punishing NASCAR is ;)

NASCAR as a sport? Hmm, thats a tough one. I personally woulden't call it a "sport", then again neither is skateboarding, BMX biking, Street Luge or anything like that, in my opinion. All NASCAR is is a bunch of guys driving a car really fast around a track. Risky? Yes. But a sport? No, not to me.

It amazes me how little some of u guys know about NASCAR. Racing is a sport, and that includes NASCAR. Theres alot more to modern day NASCAR racing than cars goin round and round in circles like some narrowminded Ravens fan seems to think. I say watch 2 entire races and alot of your minds will change.

Im nogt even gonna start on the person who argued that there are no set rules.

Whether it's a sport or not is irrelevant.

one word: boring

give me, F1 or Rally

To those that say there is no strategy in nascar...have you ever really watched an entire race? Every pit stop is strategic call...how many races have been won and lost on fuel? How many races have been won or lost because of bad calls in the pits or pitting or not pitting at the right/wrong time? To me nascar IS about strategy.

I am sure that the speed skaters in the olympics would really appreciate some one telling them going around in circles isnt a sport. How about horse races? are those not considered a sport either? they go around in circles too.

No way NASCAR cars are pushed more than F1 cars.

F1 cars need to quite a number of shifts on each lap. They sustain higher natural forces. For example, Juan Montoya AVERAGED one hundred and sixty plus at Monza the other day. Think about it for a second, to average that speed when you spend alot of time in first gear going thirty miles an hour is extraordinary.

F1 drivers aren't just popping it into high gear and moving along. This stresses a car way more than NASCAR cars.

F1 has all of the best engine manufacturers in the world. The cars are the most technologically advanced. And their are few "limits" on what engineers can do in F1, unlke in NASCAR where everything is standard (or suppossed to be).

I also don't think NASCAR contains as much strategy as some people think. I believe the announcers create WAY more suspense then is actually warranted by saying guys a "short" on fuel when they really aren't that close. More importantly, so much strategy depends on when the full-course yellow is thrown, and you can't strategize for that. You are just lucky or unlucky depending on where you are on fuel when the yellow flag is thrown.

Finally, one more reason why I have trouble with NASCAR being a sport. Perhaps someone can 'splain this to me. What the hell is up with the announcers? Are these people bought and paid for by NASCAR? They certainly aren't impartial. They are never critical of NASCAR, they are almost always unwilling to criticize drivers, etc. Listening to these guys reminds me of listening to the old WWF play-by-play guys. Are these guys just a part of the show or something?

Don't start on anybody.

But if you think you can throughly explain to me that there are set rules you are more than welcome.

Apparently you haven't watched any of the specials, like Wally Dallenbach calling out NASCAR to own up and buy their own special care unit that would travel with NASCAR. These guys aren't paid for by NASCAR, they are former NASCAR drivers/crew chiefs, so they know how this stuff works.

So, you are saying that an athlete must be in good physical shape?
Have you looked at "Americas sport" baseball players lately?

and I've seen them criticize the punishments handed out by NASCAR like many people have done in this thread.

Is NASCAR even a sport?
 

Ok, so we can see it on ESPN, and they seen to call it a sport, but who are we kidding here? Is a NASCAR driver really an athlete?

Oy, here we go again. We've been over this, it takes quite a bit of endurance to go anywhere from 400 miles to 600 miles at a near constant speed from anywhere 120 mph to 195 mph. It also takes some strength to put that car in the preffered line, especially without power steering (when it goes). Most of us have established that a race-car driver is an athlete, but we're still debating over whether it's a sport. Oh, and it's on Fox, NBC, and TNT, not ESPN.

Anyone who thinks Nascar isn't a sport and the drivers aren't athletes has never paid any attention to Nascar. Granted, it is professional, probably more professional than any other sport but it is definitely sport. Watch a pit crew perform its orchestrated magic - you'll never see a Super Bowl offense work together as well as these guys do and, they never really know what to expect when called upon to do their thing. If you think drivers aren't athletes try keeping up with one of them for a day. Put your average pampered pro quarterback in Nomex and stick him into a car for three hours and see how well he holds up. Then there's the coach - Watch Tony Eury make more split-second decisions in three minutes that the Tuna and his forty assistants makes in an entire Sunday and most of those decisions can become matters of life or death in a split-second. Not a sport, if this isn't sport then it is life - speeded up several thousand times.

For all of you who think NASCAR isnt a sport obviously know nothing about it. I'd like to see you drive a 3500lb 700+ hp car with no power steering, and when its 100 degrees + in a Nascar with no head or leg room. Also there is many right hand turns in a race they do go around other cars you know, not just in a straight line. In order to go to the outside of a car you need to turn right. You also need to be smart to race because you need stradegy to win.

I'll jump in and quote Ernest Hemingway:

" There are only three sports-Mountain Climbing, Bullfighting, and Automobile Racing. All the rest are merely games."

So there.

I totally agree that NASCAR shouldn't be considered a sport. I don't see whats so challenging about driving around in circles for 3 hours straight. I understand that there are skill factors involved with drafting and and other things but if I want to watch racing, I watch real touring car racing where the steering wheel gets use of its 900 degrees of rotation. I saw a shirt on a website one time that was black and it had the nascar logo on it but instead of saying nascar, all it said was BORING. I wanted it so bad.

Saying auto racing, NASCAR included, isn't a sport or that it doesn't require athleticism in some way, shape, or form and that its just the fastest car going around in a circle is nothing more than a blaring sign of ignorance.

For those that are fond of denying the sporting authenticity of NASCAR, I challenge you to take a one week racing school course at an approved racing school (like the richard petty driving experience) and come back and say the same thing.

Until then, your statements are just statements of ignorance.

nobody ever addressed the other "circle" sports post I made....thats disappointing.

You've gotta be fucking kidding me.

Wrestling - Continuous movement and REAL physical exertion over the course of an average match (~5 minutes? I dunno, it's been a while since I wrestled)

Boxing - Much akin to wrestling, but harder, and longer.

Hockey - When you're so bagged physically and mentally after only 20 minutes of total ice time, tell me that NASCAR is harder when NASCAR lasts 4 hours

Do you like to back up your claims or just make ridiculous statements like that all the time?

"How fortunate for leaders that men do not think."
- Adolf Hitler

This is absolutely the dumbest thing I've ever heard anyone who isn't President say.

I'm weird in that I can watch NASCAR without wanting to blow my brains out. Fast cars are fun, and cool. I'll watch that on TV, whether it's in a movie, at TV show, or a big oval.

It's definitely NOT a sport.

It's not.

I mean it.

No way.

I'm sure it's hot in the car. It's hot in my car.

Hundreds of cars packed bumper-to-bumper with no turn signals, everyone's driving like a maniac?

That's Dallas traffic. And I have to pay for my car if it gets bumped.

And to say that NASCAR is more physically punishing than hockey, football, baseball, basketball, lacrosse, soccer, rugby, cricket, softball, air hockey, paintball, ultimate frisbee, field hockey, croquet, polo, water polo, marco polo, wrestling, women's collegiate basketball, women's professional basketball, YMCA youth league basketball and the Pro Bowl ...

Well that's just insulting.

In short, NASCAR is just like cheerleading.

If you put it on TV, I'll watch it. But it's never going to be a sport.

NEVER.

ever.

i agree with dksuddeth 100%. Yes maybe NASCAR isnt the most physically straining sport on earth....but there is a huge mental aspect of it required that a lot of people may not understand....now i cant say this with the 1st person knowledge that real drivers have....simply because im not one....but if there wasnt a huge part of it that was mental why would the drivers get so mad and upset if they get sent into the wall or get 2nd in a race.....or get last in a race....it doesnt matter because they are out there to do what every competetor in the world is trying to do..WIN!!...if you dont want to win...than you shouldnt be playing that sport...and when you think about it...mental strain causes the mind to worry and stress...which can result in things like fatigue...which is both a mental and PHYSICAL strain....i personally will always consider NASCAR a sport...thats just my opinion

We have a winner.

Too many words with too little seat time. The fittest go from yahoos & giggles to discovery to humbled in a couple days. It's a wonderful couple days, but with lessons.

If you haven't run hours around a road course at 9/10, going for consistency with that last .1s, be careful with further contributions. Ignorance is ugly however big the sign.

I like NASCAR and I watch it when I can but I dont know if making four left turn and a sport. Yes you have to be in shape and yes your mind has to be 110% into it but I still dont know. I would consider more of a sport then Golf, hell in that so called sport you can drive around in a cart drinking a beer and smoke a cigar, but that is a different tread. on second thought I would call it one. now lets see how many people read the whole thing

Go ahead and drive 150-200mph for an hour....see how you hold up. i'm not personally a big fan of NASCAR, but it is definitely a very intense sport for the drivers.

Since car racing is a sport, then are drag racers amatuer athletes?

There are plenty of... lets say activities that require alot of physical exertion. there are plenty that require mental toughness. I remeber hearing a story about an umm...flute playing woman(flutest?) on the CBC. It was about a camp she was attending where they would play for extreme lenghts of time and at the end of the day she would be exausted, arms burning and lips swollen. That takes alot out of you mentally and physicaly. Is she an athlete?

good ole dictionary.com

sport
#

1. Physical activity that is governed by a set of rules or customs and often engaged in competitively.
2. A particular form of this activity.

# An activity involving physical exertion and skill that is governed by a set of rules or customs and often undertaken competitively.
# An active pastime; recreation.

Under this its considered a sport. Many things can be considered a sport. The only problem i have with car racing is the pollution. Other than that who are we to judge other peoples pastimes?

For anyone that is even remotely interested in considering NASCAR a sport, lets take a look at how many things need to be done in 1 lap on a short track at, say martinsville speedway. Martinsville is a very short .5 mile oval track thats relatively flat.

At the drop of the green flag, two lines of cars are accelerating out of turn 4 to cross the start/finish line. Theres enough space down the stretch to accomodate MAYBE 4 cars, but to get out of 'line', thats the optimum place for a driver to be to maintain the fastest speed yet have the most control, is a sure way to drop back in spots. As you cross the start/finish line approaching 125-130 miles an hour you ease off the gas and apply the brake. Ease off the gas too fast and your car gets a much shorter rear end while everyone slams into you from behind. Don't ease off fast enough and you're in for an abrupt stop as you slam into the wall because you missed the turn. Too much brake into the turn will give you the breathtaking view of the car that WAS right behind you now t-boning you right in the drivers side door at 70 miles an hour. Too little brake in the turn and you'll slide UP the track towards the wall missing the turn while the entire line behind you dives for the inside track and passes you. Do that too many times and by lap 10 there won't be enough rubber left on your tires to make a pencil eraser. IF, I stress the word IF, you managed to make the turn without being passed you now must accelerate OUT of the turn and down the backstretch. I remind you, this NEXTEL cup car weighs 2 tons.....thats 4,000 pounds of metal being driven by a 720 horsepower engine and the harder you mash that gas pedal, the better your chances of spinning your tires instead of accelerating down the stretch, so do it right the first time. Make sure that as you're navigating this turn, braking into it, speeding out of it, that you don't hit anyone on the left or right of you. That will create a case of road rage the likes of which you've never seen and theres no parking lot to escape to.

So, in the distance of less than a 1/4 mile you've accelerated from 65 to 130 and then decelerated back to around 70 whipping the car through a hairpin turn of 180 degrees just to do the same thing again, and again, and again trying NOT to use up all your tires or burn out your brakes(because slowing down 2 tons of metal is about as easy as standing up to 100 mph hurricane winds). Do this for 500 laps, let me know if it was easy for you because if it was, I've got a job for you.

I started reading the thread but it was way too painfull, so i don tknow if this has been said yet.

It is a SPORT!
Do you have any Idea how much strategy is involved in Nascar racing.

There is blocking and passing of positions and you have tto help propel our teammates at 186 mph without projecting your car back and smashinginto others.

HAve you ever seen 3 of 4 cars riding side by side around a turn @ 185 mph?

do you realize what happens if they clip each others cars?

How about the coordination of teh pit crew? omg the guys are insane.

My son got me into Nascar; it is probably one of the most intense sports out there.

Yo, your dudeness. Used to drive Connecticut to Virginia in a non air conditioned car in August on a regular basis. That's 8 hours. Am I an athelete?

Not everythng difficult is a sport! I've been trying to figure out how Shrub won the election, but that won't win me any medals.

Not everything physically unpleasant is a sport, or there's be a competetive enema show on Fox.

NASCAR Drivers are not fat slobs. They are in good shape, but 500 miles in a circle? Forsooth, 'tis balmy as a light struck bat! The pit boss should get the winnings and hire a driver from that. It a competition, not a sport.

(Damn rednecks turning left for 4 hours so they can turn right the rest of the year.)

What it's called isn't important to me.
I grew up watching live drag, dirt track, stock, and modified racing. The NASCAR, Indy, and NHRA circuits are on the top eschelon of all that.

Automotive racing is part of my life.
And it's one of the few things involving competition that holds interest for me.

I never see a good reason to discuss semantics in any context.

I love ignorant people who think of NASCAR as nothing but rednecks.

Anyone who thinks NASCAR isn't a sport, is stupid. :|

Who cares if NASCAR is a sport or not - it is a form of entertainment just like Football, Baseball, Hockey (ah-hem...cough..cough), and Basketball are. There are a lot of perople out there who like to be entertained by fast cars with Tide logos on the hood going in circles and NASCAR serves that market well.

Now that I can get behind. While I personally have no use for motor racing, that does not mean that other people do not, and I can respect that.

However, as Rush Limbaugh is wont to say between pills, "Words Mean Things," so I get irritated when motor racing is called a sport. Though it may fit a strict definition of the word, I do not believe it fits the spirit.

Still, you like your racing, and that's great. My folks, who are northeast liberal intelligencia par excellance, are big NASCAR fans. Never have understood it.

I don't see NASCAR as a "sport" either. Other than the exiting, suspenceful anouncing, watching cars go round and round is boring as hell. I'll take F1 or rally racing anyday over left turn, left turn, left turn, left turn...bleh

It's a competition, but not a sport.

Anyone who makes broad generalizations doesn't have any credit and their arguments hold no weight.

:thumbsup:

If nascar is a sport, then so is poker! There's tons of those celebrity poker games on TV all the time.

There's strategy in poker, too.

You got to know when to hold ’em, know when to fold ’em,
Know when to walk away and know when to run.

There's strategy in Counter-strike, so that is a sport, too. So is Starcraft.

no, poker is a game, like chess or checkers. It requires ONLY strategic thinking and NOT 2.5 to 4 hours of physical activity other than shuffling, dealing, and throwing chips.

Then racing isn't a sport because it requires no physical activity other than pushing a gas pedal and turning a steering wheel!

Well, All I can say is my X-wife used to ask us all the time, Why the hell are you watching that stupid stuff..all they do is go around and around and around..

One year while on vacation, I took he to Pocono raceway..showed her how the team all worked together, to get cars prepared, how much work was involved and then the race..she was amazed..totally hooked on it after that...I think she ended up watching it more then me.

To me its a sport, I know I could never do the things the drivers or the pit crews do, hell I can't afford to lose 10 lbs of fluids a race..

I prefer it over F1 since atleast in Nascar there is no traction control, no computer controled engines, u don't sit in the pit box and adjust the car..when the car comes in for a pit stop is when u make the adjustments..and if they are wrong..well u have to wait till the next stop..not just keep making adjustments from a computer in F1

I'll refer you to my challenge here - http://officer.com/article/article.j...ion=1&id=21750

and my creative writing here. This is loosely based on my real experience in amateur racing.

http://www.tfproject.org/tfp/showpos...3&postcount=72

I never watched racing until about 5 years ago. Never was interested. I always thought that going around in circles for 3 and 4 hours would be a total borefest. Guess what I sat down and watched with hubby, I talked to him, drilled him with questions galore and read the articles in the papers. I've learned that it's more interesting to me than some other sports even.

The question has been raised that racing and specifically Nascar track racing isn't a sport because it's not physically demanding. Those guys go for 4 hours with nothing but a sip of water on the pit stops and no pee breaks. They're sitting in a tight seat for 4 hours straight in insulated fire suits and no A/C in the summer but the wind piped into their helmets. Sometimes I've heard that the temperatures inside their cars (not inside their firesuits even) can be over 100 degrees F in the summer races. Just one hour in temps like that in a insulated suit could break some people. They frequently suffer dehydration and fatigue. You try holding a wheel steady for 4 hours straight and breaking, shifting, and accelerating several times every minute. You try staying alert for any change in the track, in your car, and in the other racers cars for 4 hours straight. That is mentally demanding. You are constantly discussing strategy and how your car feels with your pit crew over the radio. The drivers have a LOT of work ahead of them. I've seen some drivers who had not been at the top of their game physically before a race then after a race taken to the medical center because they were so severely dehydrated. Then to top that off - you try going through a wreck. Those guys go through quite a beating then even with the restrants and roll cage.

Don't knock it till you try it. Watch it a while, read up on it, and try to understand what's going on. Then come back and discuss it more maturely.

I'm more of an F1 fan than a NASCAR girl myself...but I must say, if racing is not a sport, then why does Michael Schumacher train for it PHYSICALLY as if it were? He works out as much physically as any other professional athlete in another sport does.

Going through a race is mentally and physically exhausting. Imagine how you feel after four to six hours of driving. Now imagine doing that 4 to 6 hours at 100+ mph with other cars around you doing the same. Imagine trying to invoke some kind of strategy while doing so.

Racing is a sport.

Oh man. Nascar, as far as I can see, has been justified as a sport. But punishment? You could set a guy in a hot room just to dehydrate him, and he'd come out looking like the nascar driver. Nascar drivers do not compare to other athletes that play sports like rugby, football, or even soccer.

Edit: Did I just get trolled?

Why do those of us that do consider it a sport really care about the opinions of people who think its only "going around in cirlces"?

If they say that, they really dont know anything about the SPORT

Im still waiting on someone to tell me why horseracing is a sport if nascar isnt

Mexico’s Athlete of the Year (1999) to Race in NASCAR

Adrian Fernandez, world-famous race car driver, was voted Mexico’s Athlete of the Year in 1999. On Sunday March, 6, 2005, he will be racing in NASCAR’s first extra-US point race.

The salient point here is that a country that admires pure athletic ability and who honors its soccer players, for example, like minor deities, awarded the prized Athlete of the Year title to a race car driver. And he’ll be in a NASCAR vehicle tomorrow.

……………………..


from http://<br /> http://www.latinospo...Bio.html<br />

Adrian Fernandez Mier
Birth date: April 20, 1965
Birthplace: Mexico City, Mexico

Adrian Fernandez began his career by racing motorcross at age eight. He entered his first auto race in 1981 at the "24 Hours of Mexico" and at the age of 15 he made the permanent move to cars in 1982. From 1982 to 1984 Fernandez competed in the Formula Vee Championship taking the title in '83 and '84. He also raced in the Formula K Series in 1984, competing in that series through 1986. He finished in the top four in the standings all three years in Formula K.

In 1987 he ran one race in the Benelux Formula Ford 1600 Championship, one British RAC Formula Ford 1600 Championship race and competed in the Formula Ford Festival at Brands Hatch. From 1988-89 he ran the British RAC and Esso Formula Ford 1600 Championship series before moving to the International F3 Championship for 1990 and 1991. He captured the Formula 3 title in '91.
In 1992 Fernandez came to the United States to compete in the Firestone Indy Lights Championship (now the PPG-Dayton Indy Lights Championship). He finished third in the points winning four races, a rookie record, and took the "Indy Lights Rookie of the Year" honors and made more than two million dollars in prize earnings.

His talent apparent, Fernandez made the jump to CART cars in 1993 competing in five races for Galles Racing International. He ran his first full CART season in 1994 with Galles finishing 13th and capturing the "Marco Magania" and "Luchador Olmeca" awards and the "JAC" trophy for "Best Driver" outside Mexico. Competing again with Galles in 1995, Fernandez finished 12th in the standings placing in the top ten nine times.

Fernandez moved to Tasman Motorsports in 1996. He had six top ten finishes, including his first career CART victory, en route to a 12th place finish in the points. The win in Toronto made him the first Mexican to win a CART event since Hector Rebaque in 1982. However, 1997 was a disappointing season for Fernandez. The Tasman team ran a Lola chassis which failed to perform to expectations. Through force of will, determination and talent, Fernandez battled to three top ten finishes and 18th place in the PPG Cup standings.

Fernandez joined Patrick Racing for the 1998 season and proved his ability to challenge for the championship. He enjoyed 14 top ten finishes with eight top five placements and two victories, Japan and Mid-Ohio, en route to a fourth place showing in the PPG Cup race during the 1998 Fed Ex Championship. He captured his first career pole at Michigan and led the championship race for the first time in his career. However, it was his victory during the Miller Lite 200 that gave Patrick Racing one of its most memorable moments when Fernandez stood atop the podium next to his teammate Scott Pruett. Fernandez was also named the "Athlete of the Year" in Mexico.

In 1999, enjoying his most successful season in the CART series, Adrian Fernandez behind the wheel of the #40 Tecate/Quaker State Reynard Ford-Cosworth completed the year fourth in the championship battle although he lead the points series early in the season for the first time in his CART career. He won in Motegi, Japan at the Firestone Firehawk 500 and at the Marlboro 500 Speedway in Fontana, California. In addition, he was selected to participate in the IROC series during 1999 where he competed against other top-named drivers including NASCAR drivers Jeff Gordon, Terry Labonte and Dale Earnhardt. Fernandez solid racing career which began in 1993, now has 80 total starts in the series. Of those starts he has finished in the top ten 41 times throughout his seven-year career.
…………………………..

This is one of those instances where I’d like to suggest to my good friends who do not consider NASCAR racing an athletic or sporting event to please be willing to open up their definitions of athletics and sport just a bit to include folks who compete in areas other than the ones traditionally associated with “sports” in their minds.

You might gain something in the process and, for the life of me, I can't imagine what would be lost by expanding a personal definition...

All respect, Art, but I think that says more about the nature of Mexican Gov't in specific and Representative democracy in general. Naming a race car driver an athelete to please the populace doesn't make him an athelete any more than a crown and an English accent would make me Queen Elizabeth. It's the basic flaw of all democracies; if the majority is composed of baboons, they are still baboons, and being in the majority won't make them anything else.

Words mean things, and that is the problem here. Calling drivers atheletes is, to my mind, changing the definition of the word athelete. Do that enough, and, at length, we will no longer have a word for a person that tests their physical self against others doing the same.

So let me get this straight, TH - NASCAR is not about testing a physical self against others doing the same?

So the problem you are having is that there's a machine involved in this test?

I have a problem with calling NASCAR a sport when a machine ultimately determines the winner. In baseball, the pitcher controls the ball, the batter controls the bat. In NASCAR, the engine determines the winner, and if your engine messes up, you are screwed.
Hockey - you control the stick, the puck
Football - a quarterback throws the football
Soccer - a player kicks the ball
NASCAR - a car is used

a car may be used, but the thing does not drive itself. thats worse than apples and oranges. drivers screw up more than engines.

Art, it's not so much that a Machine is involved in the test as the machine is the largest part of the test. I view racing as a competition between mechanics, with the driver giving the product a brain. That is my principle argument.

So don't get me wrong, I think it is as fine and valid a competition as any. Indeed, one could, if one had a taste for it, put it on a par with sports, but when it is called a sport, that's a wrong to both racing and to sport.

That was very good, Cheese. Two points for you :) Actually, a lot can be said positive side for rodeo as well as Nascar, it just hasn't got the same level of mainstream support because the auto industry can really pump huge amounts of influence into auto racing, and machines turn a lot of guys cranks (if you forgive the metaphor). My take is that the whole shtick is simply more background noise or another layer of human interest and endeavor in our ever growing social foundation and if people can get a lot of fun and enjoyment out of it then good for them. Not my cup of tea but certainly not something I take issue with.

Tophat, I posted this thread in GD: http://www.tfproject.org/tfp/showthr...20#post1695720

I think the operative piece that responds to the situation at hand is:

"Even when I attend "sporting" events designed to highlight the unadorned facility of biology, I’m acutely aware of the artificial nature of play surfaces, implements of sport, the technology of gadgets that surround even the most "natural" activities, high-tech training tools, devices, diets, and medicine, bioengineered “athletes,” and environmental conditions that are intimately wrapped up in the relationship of humans and their culture/technologies."

Given that I see humanity as a bio/technological entity - I'd say our differences as regards the subject are a matter of degree and not of kind.

Always good to delve more deeply into a subject like this.
Thanks...

Driving on the street, even street racing at triple digits, provides no sense of what's required for a couple hours of full tilt competition against qualified opponents. Yes, even ovals are tough. The challenges change from road courses, but it's exhausting, requires precision, and is entirely unforgiving. That wall looks much different up close at speed.

Endurance, baja, and rally are a step beyond. The combination of physical and mental endurance for extended durations is unique, and what's required of any of the front-runners to have a career. The car is as important, but neither can show more than fluke wins without top performance from the other.

Nothing like the realization that a simple moment (fatique, mechanical, brain fade) can send you launching into the wall or weeds only to be picked up by the other guys you took with you. Watching thousand$ evaporate in an instant while hoping for as few injuries as possible only enhances the experience.

Tophat, you're really digging yourself in with the sophomoric bs. If you can come back from a week of driving school and run consecutive laps within 5 seconds of a related series average, and continue to fling this nonsense, then I'll upgrade my opinion to "stubborn".

Edit: Just to help frame the challenge, 5 seconds is easily a class off pace. Should be easy, right?

Definitely a sport