cheesemoney

I'm sorry. It just isn't. I guess its like a game to me.

I used to love to play counter-strike. I was really good too. THen I heard people talk about how they were cyberathletes and all this crap. It didn't make them athletes.

Christ, even bowlers and golfers have to rely more on physical athleticism than racecar drivers.

It could be fun to you, and I guess I could consider it a game, but if our freaking fighter pilots aren't considered athletes (and they actually have to handle hardcore g-forces and that type of crap), how am I supposed to consider some fat / old racecar driver an athlete.

I'm done with this rant.
Wait till I start on golf.... though I do love that game.
Cheese

The_Dude

nice one hater.

it's not easy to spend 4+ hours in a hot car without an AC.

and if the car loses power steering, you will have to drive the whole race without power steering (you cant just quit the race!).

also, the fastest car on the track and the slowest car on the track is probably have a difference of 2 miles/hr or so.

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archer2371

sport (spôrt, sprt) n.
1.) a.) Physical activity that is governed by a set of rules or customs and often engaged in competitively.
b.) A particular form of this activity.
2.) An activity involving physical exertion and skill that is governed by a set of rules or customs and often undertaken competitively.
Does NASCAR require physical exertion? Yes.
Is it governed by a set of rules? Yes.
Is it undertaken competitively? Yes.
Therfore, NASCAR is a sport. Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it's not a sport.

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djtestudo

I don't like soccer...can I not call it a sport anymore?

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archer2371

Uhhh, no, it's a sport (albeit a crappy one, sorry all you intnat'l fans, I just don't give a rat's arse about soccer).

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"Hey Grif, Chupathingy...how bout that? I like it...got a ring to it."

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BigGov

archer, dj was mocking cheese

Dude, you forgot to mention g forces too. They can have a dramatic affect on a body too, especially after 4 hours.

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Sion

cheese, the drivers in Nascar are in a LOT better physical condition than you think (and probably better than 75% of the population). the arm strength and endurance necessary to steer those cars (even with power steering) at 200mph for 4 continuous hours is demanding, to say the least. then you have all the footwork. even on a track like Taladega, which probably has the least amount of shifting necessary, these guys are on and off the clutch at least a dozen times every lap, or about every 40 seconds, give or take.

then there is the heat factor, as mentioned above.

you dont know what you are talking about.

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The_Dude

many people dont have a clue on how much work goes into making one of these cars and how aerodynamic these are.

sometimes, a car going .10s of a minute faster can win the race.

there is a lot of work going into this and they have to practice also.

__________________
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sixate

I love NASCAR, F1, and a lot of other racing series, but I don't look at them as sports for some reason.... It's racing, and it's in a league of it's own to me. Sorry, but you don't have to be in that great of shape to be a race car driver. These guys aren't even in as good a shape as me. They do need to be conditioned for the rigors of driving, but that's it. Although, they are in better shape than most people, but certainly not a basketball or football player.

tinytim

Left, left, left, left.

Repeat five hundred times.

No thanks!

gov135

Hold up... let's not confuse 'SPORT' with 'ATHLETE'

Everyone is defining NASCAR as a 'sport' by citing athleticism. This is nice, but just cause someone is an ATHLETE doesn't mean he or she participates in a SPORT.

Why NASCAR is not a sport:
1. There are no set rules. Noone, including the participants, no if and when a race will end. This is because NASCAR is reluctant to end races under caution conditions. Sometimes they may just decide to through a red flag and stop the cars. Although unpopular, the rules should allow for the race to end under caution conditions - like any other sport, uniform rules.

2. There are no set rules. There are no set penalties for dealing with cheaters, and people seem to cheat every week. Usually, if you read every inch of the sports page, you will find that on Wednesday, NASCAR docks a team several points for this or that. It is not uniform, but arbitrary. Sports have rules, and enforce them. People seem very willing to cheat in NASCAR, and NASCAR is not willing to put a stop to it.

3. There are no set rules. Because racin' back to the start/finish line allows some competitors to get back on the lead lap, and is generally more excitin', NASCAR is reluctant to ban the practice. Again, noone really knows what the rules are.

4. I'm sure there are many, many others, but I don't follow it.

NASCAR is sports entertainment, just like wrestling. There are heros and villans (point-in-case, Kurt Busch, who drives like the late Earnhardt, but is somehow made a villian).

NASCAR is running a show, just like WWE is running a show. This is why they are reluctant to have actual rules - because you would need to enforce them. If Earnhardt Jr. runs an illegal set-up, you'd need to enforce it by taking away his race points and banning him from the next stop. But this would ruin the next show.

NASCAR is not a sport because it doesn't have uniform rules.

gov135

Part Two:

Still keeping SPORT and ATHLETE seperate because they ARE exclusive of each other.

If NASCAR drivers are athletes:
... so are fighter pilots and submariners.
... they are poor athletes. These guys, no matter the stress on their bodies, are not world-class track-and-filed athletes.
... so are the guys that race at your local dirt track every weekend. They shift just as much, probably more - and although their speeds aren't as high they don't have alot of the comforts.

I have no opinion on whether or not NASCAR drivers are athletes. This is because it depends on your definition of an athlete. If your definition is, say, "men and women who prepare for strenuous activity by training, both mentally and physically for the task at hand," then they are athletes. But so are alot of people. It's just a broad definition.

If your definition is more narrow, NASCAR drivers and submariners probably don't make the cut. This is okay to. It just depends on your definition.

cheesemoney

I take it back. Many people don't know what kind of shape one must be in to play a 12 hour straight clan tournament for an fps game like counter strike. Being in my 20's, my back isn't quite what it used to be, and after 12 hours straight of sitting in an ergonomically incorrect position without a gelpad for my mouse, a lumbar support for my back, I am really starting to feel my age. I am SO very impressed with those older "cyber atheletes" that really must condition their hands so that they don't blister, do situps for back support, that can still manage to compete with the younger crowd. You also don't realize what kind of technological edge even the smallest configuration can give you. My team of computer mechanics has situated me next to a DS3 so that my ping time is miniscule. They have cooled my computer with a liquid nitrogen cooling unit and overclocked it by over 800 mhz. When I tire, they wipe the sweat from my brow, feed me water, and soda--the fuel of the cyberathelete--to keep me going.
In an intense night of cybergaming, I may have to go without soda for several rounds, even though I am tired. If a new video card comes available between tourneys, they rush out and grab the latest and greatest and then we swap it with the old card, after applying the latest heat sink and overclocking it, of course. Its tough to compete.
You guys really don't realize how in shape you have to be to compete at the top level.
I'd say the top cyberathlete is in better shape than 75% of the population. The difference between the best and the worst can be just a few frags. You have the bad boys, that talk shit and may be good for the drama of the sport. Then you have the quiet guys that just go out there and prove their worth with their play. Sometimes, the difference between winning and losing can come down to how much you can get out of your front side bus? Just the other day, I probably had a 2 fps edge over my opponets and was in first place, only to have my ram crap out on me in the last game because I had my bus speed set too high.


I know, sounds stupid, right?
Cheese

BigGov

Yes, very stupid.

Oh, and completely different from NASCAR.

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One day an Englishman, a Scotsman, and an Irishman walked into a pub together. They each bought a pint of Guinness. Just as they were about to enjoy their creamy beverage, three flies landed in each of their pints. The Englishman pushed his beer away in disgust. The Scotsman fished the fly out of his beer and continued drinking it, as if nothing had happened. The Irishman, too, picked the fly out of his drink but then held it out over the beer and yelled "SPIT IT OUT, SPIT IT OUT, YOU BASTARD!"

HeAtHeN

I also hate NECK-CAR. The mullet racing league.

If they mixed in a right turn now and again.... nah it'd still suck.

Notice how all NECKCAR drivers are called Kyle, Dale, Jeff or Bobby??

__________________

cheesemoney

You're right. In one, you're sitting in a metal box.
In the other, you're staring at a plastic one.

Cheese

MikeyChalupa

cheesemoney, I hate NASCAR too. I'm from New York, where nobody gives two shits about racing. Then I get stationed in Tennessee. Florida and Virginia for 8 years, and have had this argument about a thousand times with the rednecks I've met. I've been forced to watch a race (as part of a deal where some Billy Bob had to sit through a Yankees-Sox game, with running commentary by me) so we could each understand the other one's sport better. I have to admit, you DO need to be in great physical condition to drive in a race. NASCAR drivers are extremely susceptible to becoming dehydrated during a race. They are routinely subjected to hot in-car temperatures of up to 130 F and usually have a hard time replacing all the fluid and electrolytes they lose through sweat. A NASCAR driver can lose 3 quarts, or 6 pounds of fluid during a three-hour race, or as much as a professional football player can lose during a three-hour practice. I doubt ANY video gamer has ever dehydrated like that.

I agree with gov, much of NASCAR is set up, like Earnhardt Jr. winning at Daytona the year after his father died, the rule changes from race to race designed to keep some drivers down, others up, and the general way NASCAR is marketed.

I don't like NASCAR. I hate it. If it could disappear tomorrow, I'd be willing to give up the NHL in exchange so I'd never have to hear about this driver or see Calvin peeing on a number or Jeff Gordon on the Pepsi machine at the exchange. There are millions of people who agree with me. But that doesn't make it not a sport, cheese.

And please, STOP comparing it to playing video games. In fact, don't mention them again in this thread because it makes you sound juvenile and asinine.

-Mikey

zipper

Ahhhhhhh........what a terrible thread. Comparing playing video games to driver a car at 180+ mph for 3-4 hours.

Good thread Cheese

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IC3

Did I dream that I just read this thread or is it for real.

I just have to say...Swing a Golf club...Or throw a bowling ball down an alley...Or have your little 12 hour gaming session,Then try racing a car in Nascar or any other racing series and tell me which takes more of being in top physical shape.

And comparing any sport to a video game...Well that's just...Stupid.

lions20

NACSAR probably puts the body through more punishment than any other sport.

The_Dude

the race ends when a car crosses the start-finish line on the final lap. they also end when rain comes in (but nascar warns at least 2 laps in advance of rain caused finishes). red flags are thrown when there is too much wreckage on the track for safe driving.

before the race, nascar tells the drivers the last lap where they would put the red flag down in case of a caution. after this lap expires, race will finish under yellow.

so, if the caution comes out after the preset lap #, the race WILL under caution.

it's pure judgemental, just like a baseball umpire calls a strike. can you pull up the same arguement for that?

also, look at where the umpire spots the ball in the NFL. it's judgemental and not always on the right spot. what about the fouls committed in nba? also a judgement call and some violations will be missed.


It's the lead car that determines whether or not to let another car get back on the lead lap. the leader usually ONLY allows cars that dont pose a challenge or are a member of the same team to pass when racing back to the caution.

yes, dale jr has been docked points and his crew chief fined for some minor violations. i dont think nascar has ever grounded a driver for minor violations on the car.

__________________
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gov135

Not the same. The rules of baseball state that umpires call balls and stikes. Nascar just makes random judgement calls, with no rules to fall back on (there is not set procedure - in baseball it is understood (by rule) that the umpire will call balls and stikes, and will use his judgement).

In Nascar there are no rules for things that are NOT judgemental - like cheating.


Very much correct. But that is where the problem lies. Noone knows if racing back to the line will apply or not. This creates a potentially dangerous situation where some cars slow down and others speed up. But Nascar won't address it, they'd like as many cars as possible on the lead lap, it makes for a better show.

Not just Dale Jr. Almost every week someone is getting docked, and their crew chiefs are being fined. However, the owners normally pick up the fines, and the points aren't very severely cut. This is my biggest arguement - It cannot be a sport if teams as a whole conspire to break the rules, because the punishments are so insignificant, they don't even care. This makes it an exhibition, sports entertainment.

BigGov

Then because of guys in the NFL football is just sports entertainment. See Julius Peppers.

Baseball would definately not be a sport. See: Ken Caminiti saying 75% of players use performance enhancing drugs. Or Ball Four where drug use is referred to many times.

__________________
One day an Englishman, a Scotsman, and an Irishman walked into a pub together. They each bought a pint of Guinness. Just as they were about to enjoy their creamy beverage, three flies landed in each of their pints. The Englishman pushed his beer away in disgust. The Scotsman fished the fly out of his beer and continued drinking it, as if nothing had happened. The Irishman, too, picked the fly out of his drink but then held it out over the beer and yelled "SPIT IT OUT, SPIT IT OUT, YOU BASTARD!"

Jdoe

How on earth did this thread get so far without a single George Carlin reference?

Jdoe

gov135

I seem to remember Julius Peppers, by rule, getting a four game suspension. He lost rookie of the year, which he would have won. His team missed the playoffs. He was embarrassed and chastised publically.

Every sport, job, or situation where there are humans will have cheaters. It's just a given. Nascar, however, has a culture of cheating that is not sport. Whole teams cheat -from the crew cheifs on down. I don't see them getting sidelined for four races, getting their points stripped, and getting their salaries taken for the events they missed.

These are real consequences for breaking rules. Nascar, nope, doesn't have them.


Ken Caminiti is a horse's ass. Please tell me we can all agree that we wouldn't take anything that he says for face value.

Again, cheating exists individually in every human pursuit. It is different in Nascar, for two reasons:
1. Whole teams cheat.
2. There are no severe consequences (rules) for doing so. Nascar is to scared to make them, let alone enforce them.

This undermines the credibility of Nascar as a 'sport'.

striker3303

Despite the websters dictionary definition, I still can not bring myself to call Nascar a sport. When I am driving around in my car I do not consider myself an athlete, I am nothing more than a commuter.

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gov135

Why is Nascar Sport's Entertainment?
Here is a nice, recent column:
http://www.montereyherald.com/mld/mo...ts/6610029.htm

Busch is NASCAR's newest villain
By SCOTT FOWLER
Charlotte Observer

BRISTOL, Tenn. - Kurt Busch is such a despised man among the NASCAR faithful right now that he even caused the fireworks to be booed Saturday night.

Have you ever seen 160,000 people boo while fireworks light up the sky? I hadn't either - not until Saturday night, when Busch was in Victory Lane and the boos of the fans couldn't be drowned out even by the firework explosions.

Busch is young, fast and controversial. Like it or not, he is NASCAR's newest villain. And he might as well like it.

Embrace the role, Kurt. Dale Earnhardt made a decent living playing it.

Racing - like wrestling and a great movie - always needs a good bad guy. But in NASCAR, there's been a black hole in the black hat lately.

Jeff Gordon got divorced, making him less perfect and more palatable. Tony Stewart got quiet and stopped winning races in bunches, making him an afterthought.

Somebody had to step into the void, and Busch stumbled into it this week with a series of defiant interviews. Then - and give him a ton of credit for this - he drove a superb race to win the Sharpie500 Saturday night in Bristol after a turmoil-filled week.

There was that one little problem Busch had with Sterling Marlin - the latest person Busch must apologize to after he accidentally wrecked Marlin in the 500. Marlin will have to get in line to be angry with Busch, however, who has performed the remarkable feat of being hit by a Jimmy Spencer punch eight days ago and nevertheless seeming like a bully.

"He's a cocky, arrogant punk," second-place finisher Kevin Harvick sneered about Busch after the race.

That comment smacks of the old story about a pot and a kettle. But Busch also angered some of the establishment racers with his comments about how flattening a fender - ruining another car's aerodynamics for your own benefit - is an accepted practice.

____________________________________________________

Remember when Vince McMahon swore for years up one side and down the other that (then) WWF wrestlin' was the real deal? That nothing was fixed? C'mon, you Nascar guys remember, you were watching.

This is Sport's Entertainment. It is marketed with Heros (Earnhardt, Jr - Stonecold) and Villans (Kurt Busch - Undertaker). There are "storylines" throughout, that build to a "climax". This isn't a pitcher battling a bater. This is soap opera stuff.

I posted the article above because I saw many like it after last weeks event. There is no discussion of 'points' or 'strategy' or anything else that factors into real sport. This is an article devoted to the entertainment side of Nascar. It serves no other purpose.

Nascar markets crashes. Crashes. Not "who will win the points." Fans cheer when people crash.

The author even admits Nascar has many "grey areas." This means no concrete rules.

I respect everyone's opinion on this board. Answer me one thing - why is it so important to everyone who is a Nascar fan that this be considered a sport?

The_Dude

so you're saying that nascar races are fixed?

if so, plz tell me how.


nascar has a lot of judgement calls.

how exactly are you gonna punish a guy that used an illegal spring to a guy whose wing was at an illegal angle?

it's a judgement call, but the races are not decided by judgement calls.

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BigGov

Whole teams cheat? They try to abide all rules, if they get caught with something is not like minor "this is off by a little" they fix it and come back. If it's something major, they're screwed for the entire weekend and lose points. That's a pretty severe consequences.

As for they don't make rules, neither does the NFL, NBA, MLB, NHL, even the NCAA. Someone messes up once and can the guys on ESPN look up in a rule book and report how long someone's going to be out? Nope. They need to wait a few weeks after the judgement, and the appeal to finally report how long someone's been suspended.

gov, that article can be written for any sport with a little bit of re-writing. You watch the NFL on ESPN or MNF's ad's and they'll have something very similar that tells why their game that week is going to be great and why you need to see it. It's basic marketing.

BTW, I'm not a NASCAR fan, but I still consider it a sport.

yoshi

I totally agree. They work their asses off in NASCAR--it's okay if you don't like it, but you don't have to look down on it

Mr. Spacemonkey

I'll just be honest, i guess techinically it is a sport but i really don't enjoy watching it. There is just something about watching a bunch of racing cars go around a track over and over and over that seems to bore the crap out of me. But that's just me, i'm not really to into cars, so that's probably why.

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Serpent

I think you guys should just learn about f1 and leave nascar alone =P In reality though, yes race car drivers are atheletes. As much as boxers, distance runners, sprinters, football players; they are all atheletes. Race car drivers have to put up with dehydration due to heat and the physical force they exert from their body piloting a car in most cases above g loading of 2. (thats 2 times the regular force of gravity for you non math folks) I'm not exactly sure of the g loading that a nascar car can create but i figure around 2-3 for the speed they are going and the angle of the average oval. On the other hand open wheel cars will create 3-4gs around ovals and f1 cars around 4 gs per corner in most cases. Although its not comepletly consistant at these loadings (except for a f1 car where there are horizontal g forces applied constantly due to the cornering, acceleration and braking forces used) it is still a difficult job. (And my reasoning as to why f1 drivers are under a larger load is because oval drivers get breaks during the straight aways where there is not much g loading above 1 if any). Now f1 for example, the drivers are all on an extreme fitness training during the season, and have some
(if not the best) fitness trainers in the world working for them. Then there comes the mental aspect of racing. The most important of it all, in order for the physical part to work, you have to have an insane amount of concentration. To drive a car lap after lap on the very edge that a car can go for two to three hours is another difficult job. Thus when you combine the two i think of race drivers being just as atheltic as a baseball player who has to have the strength to hit a ball and the concentration to keep his eye on it and watch it connect to his bat.. Ok my rants over.


Oh and don't forget about motorcycle racers who throw their bodies around on a bike, they are atheletes too.

nitrorclover

I think I will remain neutral in this... but honestly, left hand turns get rediculiously boring. Try and mix it up with some *gasp!* right hand turns.

The_Dude

nascar DOES go to 2 diff road courses twice a year.

__________________
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Serpent

Would be interesting to see nascar do some street parades.

The_Dude

that would be sweet (have you seen the dale jr commercial? where jr drops this guy off as a designated driver in the budweiser car?)

__________________
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crewsor

Sport or not theres entirely too much valuable network time devoted to a bunch of cars going around and around and around and around and around and around and around and around and around and around and around and around and around and around andaround around and around and around and around and around and around and around and around and around and around and around and around and around and around and around around and around and around and around and around and around and around and around and around and around and around and around and around and around and around around and around and around and around and around and around and around and around and around and around and around and around and around and around and around around and around and around and around and around and around and around and around and around and around and around and around and around and around and around around and around and around and around and around and around and around and around and around and around and around and around and around and around and around, get the idea?

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MontanaXVI

I do not consider it a sport either, while the drivers may be some type of an athlete they are not involved in a sport in my opinion, however my lil anology at the end here calls it a sport, sorry its all i could think of

Non Athletic Sport Centered Around Rednecks

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Dano069

Hmm, let's see now, driving around and around and around and around isn't a sport. Then, let's see, the 4x100, 4x1600 and all other "track" relay events aren't sports either then, right?

I used to like Nascar, but, I agree with the rules stuff. Let's see, Jeff Gordon and Little E drop below the yellow line at Talledaga but nothing happens to them. Hmm, hereos and villians right? And don't give me that "They were pushed down" B.S. I watched the tape over and over and over and Little E was NOT pushed below the yellow line. The fact that he then went on to win the race made it even more galling.

The other thing that's really pissed me off is the Spencer/Busch fight. Busch talks trash, says on the radio he purposely tried to ruin Spencer's car by pushing in the fenders, shuts his car off in front of Spencer's trailer, mouths off (caught on the in car camera audio) and gets his lights punched out and Spencer gets suspended? WTF.

One last thing. If it's not sports entertainment, then why did Benny, Allen and "Wally the Washout" spend Bristol night talking about how mad everyone was going to get and how they were disappointed no one threw a hissy fit? Pure, unadulterated bullshit.

There's too much money involved right now. Sponsers pick the drivers now, not the team owners.

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archer2371

All superstars get excepted from rules, or some are especially watched in case of a rule infraction. This is not something that is isolated to just NASCAR. If NASCAR is sports entertainment, then so is the NHL and NFL, they market big hits and fights (more so the NHL) it's just smart business because this is what people want to see.

__________________
"This ain't no Ice Cream Social!"

"Hey Grif, Chupathingy...how bout that? I like it...got a ring to it."

"I have no earthly idea what it is I just saw, or what this place is, or where in the hell O'Malley is! My only choice is to blame Grif for coming up with such a flawed plan. Stupid, stupid Grif."