If you actually read what I was saying.. I am saying that it is inferior to the way the world plays. THE US TEAM is focused on style and that's why we suck. there that should be a little more clear for you now.

If Warren Sapp did a premediated hit on some quarterback, the poor QB would probably be broken in half. Hell, Brian Dawkins could kill someone if he hit them from behind and they weren't ready of it at all.

I'd list the numerous players who have been driven off a football field either unconcious, or without feeling in some part of their body.

16 games might not be alot, but 365 days a year of training is unimaginable. Jerry Rice, has trained harder than that guy for 19 straight years. Just because someone doesn't play a game for 349 days out of year doesn't mean they don't work hard. Don't forget about Kory Stringer who died of heat exhaustion in training camp. Granted, his conditioning probably wasn't as good as that soccer player, because he needed to carry around 200 more pounds of muscle and had to hit people, while running.

Torn knee ligament means the same to every athlete.

Oh, you can't list all the injuries you can receive in Football. Hell, if you need proof, just look back to last year and Hollis Thomas who broke his foot because the Nuturf or whatever the hell the Eagles bought was installed poorly. "Tough"? Tough is Donovan McNabb who snaps, not breaks, SNAPS his ankle in a tackle that would have made Stretch Armstrong look away horror. What does McNabb do? Come back and throw for 400 yards and 4 TD's in the same game. Tough is Byron Leftwich who's leg hurt so bad he needed his linemen to pick him up and run him to the huddle. Tough is a young, promising Dennis Byrd who breaks his neck on a normal play.

Your list is slightly flawed.

1) Football is number one, it is a contact sport in the truest sense.

2) Hockey. The speed of the players, the strengh of players and a 100 mph puck rank it number 2.

3) Rugby. Rugby is not a true contact sport, but that isn't discrediting it at all.

4) Baseball. 4 Names, two from each spectrum. Clemens and Pedro. Piazza and Sosa. Throw in the shortstops and second basemen who have their knees aimed at every double play opportunity, and that is why this is ranked so high.

5) NASCAR and other racing. If Golf is qualified as a sport, racing is. Any sport where there is a possiblity of being slammed into a wall at a *recorded* 120 g's (Joe Nemachek I think...The_Dude would probably know for sure), or have your legs severed off (Alex Zenardi) not to mention the CART racers in Texas who after practice laps almost passed out because of the g forces on their bodies.

6) Soccer. Can have some truely painful moments, but far fewer than the other 5.

7) Tennis. Roddick/El Alineu, a 21-19 FIFTH set. It's surprising that neither one of them passed out in the middle of the final set.

8) Basketball. The toughest thing about basketball is taking a charge from Shaq.

9) Golf. While 36 holes in one day is extremely difficult, it happens rarely in pro golf, and is a stretch to even be included in this list.

Interesting discussion once again. Before I moved to Finland nearly 5 years ago, I found myself bored to tears by soccer. My favourite sports were: Basketball, Baseball, and Baseball in exactly that order. Hockey never interested me and never does.
Though we have basketball here it's at such a low level that I never cared to watch it. Used to pay ridicuous sums of money to watch NBA games. For lack of anything better to do I tried to learn something about soccer, first by kicking a ball around and then by learning the rules and watching the games. I was immediately hooked. I think many Americans don't understand the skill level of the top players, as we don't play often or at all. I think the rules confuse us, and I think as a mainly defensive game it is not in our culture. Pretty much the same as a pitchers duel in Baseball. It may be the best sort of game in the purest sense, but many people get tired of watching it. We want instant action, hence Basketball increasing in popularity since the 80's.

Well the skill level seems to have declined in Basketball over the last few years (Johnny can't shoot), and though I get sentimental about baseball (saw a great Yankee Met game while visiting NYC), it has gotten even slower than I remember (a true summer sport). I think more people would be into soccer if they had players they could identify with. I LOVE Real Madrid because they seem to have picked up all the best players in the world who I learned about from watching highlight reels. I suppose even now in th US you don't have so much of an opportunity to watch those...

WTF!!! have you ever even watched a rugby game!!

Rugby isn't a true CONTACT sport. It's violent to all hell, definately, but compared to football it's just different.

Contact in this case meaning guys running flat out into each other time after time. Rugby has alot of grabbing and such, followed by takedowns, which makes it violent, but not it's contact in the sense which I described it.

well soccer is a soft sport.......when you look at all the american sports it involves a bit of ruff and tumble and it is also is low scoring

i think the best points that were made were:

1. it's not a good betting sport... so true and once you think about it it makes sense. i have a ton of co-workers who only watch games they bet on. plus fantasy football, baseball and for a small part basketball have a ton of stats to follow. what stats are there in soccer besides. goals, assists, fake falls, grabbing your knee in pain, and whine to the official.

2. it's not a very good tv sport like hockey. both hockey and soccer need to be seen live. the human eye does a much better job tracking back and forth between individual players and the whole field.

3. in high school it will never supplant basketball which is during the same season. it might have a better shot going against baseball in the spring, and you might see some basketball players go out for soccer.

I find football (both rest of the word or brutish american style) incredibly boring and pointless personally. Hockey and baseball follow very closely on that list.
The only physical sport I like watching and playing is basketball, and I much prefer watching high school or college students play rather than over-paid NBA players. Outside of basketball, I would rather watch (or especially play) a good chess match than nearly any of the popular sporting events out there today.
I would watch old-school bare knuckled boxing if it was on Television though, and the Semi Truck Cab racing I saw on European televison was very interesting and so much more entertaing than nascar ever has been for me.

I'm still not sold on baseball being high on the toughest list.

Of the spring sports a kid could be playing in HS, on the mens side, i'd list it:

1. Lacrosse
2. Soccer
3. Track
4. Baseball

Unless you are the pitcher, there is just too much standing around in baseball. And pitchers get 4 days off between starts. Has anyone ever done a study on how much actual action is in a 3 hour major league game? I'll bet it's under 10 minutes.

Thanks for listening.

Yeah, yeah, and baseball players are fat, too, right?

It's pretty well known that major league pitching is generally in the 80 to 100 mph range. How fast do you think they throw the ball to each other? The truth is, an average person cannot even catch a ball thrown by a major league infielder. Forget about sliding and baserunning collisions, if a baseball hits you in the head, you're going down.

Bah, please. Anyone who denies hockey players being the toughest athletes needs they're head examined. These guys just flat out go for it.

These guys far and away play in the roughest sport around. 7 game playoff series. At least 2-3, somtimes 4 games a week. They play more hockey in 3 weeks then most football players play in an entire season. It's physical every night, they give 110% EVERY night.

Anyone who watches sports and actully watches hockey, or played hockey, instead of just looking at the scores, know this. Anyone.

Lacrosse is a close second. Turn on ESPN and watch these sports. These guys play a hell of alot rougher then any football players.

Whoa Kurant, we're judging the toughest SPORTS.

Hockey PLAYERS are either #1, or tied for #1 on the toughness scale. Lacrosse is further down the line, especially below football.

As for wwcd, do you have any idea what a baseball pitch does to an elbow? If you don't, look up Jose Rijos on Google. How his elbow is even functional anymore has doctors baffled.

Then there's the shortstop and second basemen and how for every double play attempt their knees have bullseyes on em.

And don't forget the everyday wear and tear. For most of baseball the body needs to do things it just shouldn't do. Factor in doing that for just a season, half a year, and the abuse goes sky high.

And enough with the football bashing because everyone that says it is being a hypocritical moron. Hate to pick on Kurant, but since he's the last one, he's going to be the scapegoat. "They play more hockey in 3 weeks then most football players play in an entire season. It's physical every night, they give 110% EVERY night." And a football player gives 110% every DAY in practice and in the games. All these position battles in football they don't flip a coin on, and many of the guys on special teams need to give it they're all in training camp and preseason so the coaches notice them.

And amazing how all the hypocrites forget the two-a-days out in 100 degree weather during training camp. Remember, two Jacksonville players have gone down in three days, and of course there's the tragic death of Korry Stringer. Most of which is caused by the mentality of football players where if you sit out you're a wuss.

And Lacrosse is not even close to second. Slam Ball on TNN is rougher. This isn't coming from a football fanboy either, I love Lacrosse and watched every episode of the MILL when it was covered on ESPN.

I love playing soccer. I grew up playing it and if I were in better shape and had more time I would love to play it now. That being said, I just don't enjoy watching it on t.v. I love basketball, football and baseball and I am learning about Hockey(growing up in Phoenix did not provide me with much opportunity to learn about hockey). All of these sports seem to translate better to the t.v. than soccer(with the possible exception of hockey). America is a t.v. society like it or not, and a sport's popularity is predicated on is watchability. Soccer may be the most played sport in the world, but a hell of a lot of people play racket ball and I have never seen it covered on ESPN.

Plus like a lot of people have said, American's view it as a "foreign sport" and we just prefer the things we created.

ok, so i guess that the topic of this thread has changed from US soccer, to the toughest sport.

first...
mate, i´m going to have to repeat djflish... you haven´t seen a rugby match.

toughest sports...

Rugby - full body contact, no protective armour, no helmets - rucks, mauls and scrums... take a look.

Hockey - fast and they´ve got weapons. and fighting seems to be encouraged.

American Football - sure they run at each other, but with all of that armour, all of those breaks in play, and millions of players, imo, it isn´t as tough as rugby, or hockey.

and has anyone here seen an AFL match... its not all that tough in terms of body contact, although there are no rules regarding such, but in terms of fitness, it is by far the toughest sport.

then, the rest....

and Halx, imo, baseball is tougher than golf, but only just....

Dude...
lol
don´t be silly, England can´t play cricket.
lol
(of course i´m only saying that because at the moment the poms are thrashing us in Rubgy)

ok, so i have a question regarding American team sports... especially the ´major´ sports.

would it be fair to say that Americans steer away from sports in which they would be challenged by other countries (and i mean from further abroad than Canada).

I don´t know of many American teams who regularly compete against other countries. I mean, in Cricket, teams play against many many other countries. This is obviously the same for Soccer, and Rubgy, and Hockey (field) and Netball.

sure, in individual sports, the US is an incredible competitor (just look at the Olympics), but why don´t they compete in international team sports?

is it just because the grass roots sports are mainly unique to the US?

(or am i just not aware of this aspect of American sport?)

Soccer is pretty popular in australia, only problem is we keep getting knocked out in world cup qualifiers >: |

I just read an article on espn saying that there were 79,000 fans at the MAN U vs. Juventus game they played at Giants Stadium. (link at bottom of post) Seems like soccer is popular.. even without Beckham being there..we just don't have the same quality game or god like players (yet) this is what I've been trying to point out. In the rest of the world soccer players are treated like our All Stars and beyond. Here they are just players. We need one breakout player that can change the game and you'll see more popularity. Babe Ruth changed baseball right? Then I'm sure that someone can transcend soccer.

All this talk about it being boring doesn't make much sense really. I'm a rabid baseball fan but let's face it.. baseball can be boring. I can't count how many 1-0 games I've seen in baseball. A homerun or a single won the game.. is that any different than a breakaway goal by a streaking forward? Not really...all in all I think it comes down to understanding the game and the fact that we don't have a soccer hero.LINK LINK LINK LINK LINK LINK LINK LINK LINK LINK LINK LINK

I hit you full out with football equipment on, I get up. I hit you full out with a rugby shirt on, I get up with a separated shoulder.

I've watched rugby, I'd love to have it be popular here because it's my kind of sport, slightly slower than football and it plays much more to my strengths so I could grab people and throw them around. But is it rougher? Well, if you play it like football, of course it's rougher because you're a moron playing football without pads. If you play it like rugby, then no, it's not.

Think I'm wrong? Watch the Eagles Brian Dawkins. Watch Ray Lewis. The pads doesn't make it any wussier, it enables the opposing people to actually get up.

With your argument about rugby being so rough, then basketball is higher than football because of Malone's elbows and O'Neal's fat ass.

You're right, Guccilvr. I was there at the Man. U. game against UV. Frankly, it beats the hell out of any football, basketball, or baseball game that I've ever been to. Was sitting in the third section, couldn't see the southeast portion of the field, but it was simply increadible. Drove ten hours to get there to just watch the game. Was superb.

Now, will I watch an MLS game on today? Uh, no. I tried to watch the All-Star game against Chivas(sp?), and it bored me to tears. With the TV angles and such, it isn't made for a TV audience. I'll stay awake till 4 AM to watch the World Cup because that's a 1/4 thing, but I won't watch the MLS. Now, look at football and basketball. I'd lmost rather sit home and watch those games on TV. It's as if they're made to be watched on TV. You don't have the players spread out over 1000 square yards. They're all within twenty yards. It's easier on the eyes.

As far as injuries, I believe soccer is actually the most dangerous sport as far as volume. In comparison to a sport like American Football, the severity of the injuries was quite mild.

Andrew.

If you think a pre-season warm-up game is incredible then you should check out a proper game! European derby games are probably the best, Arsenal v Spurs, Man Utd v Man City, Real Madrid v Barcelona, AC Milan v Inter... the atmospheres are just awesome!
Anybody who is not 100% convinced about football (sorry, 'soccer') should check out some of these games

Ok, I stopped reading most of this when someone posted there isnt enough ad breaks in soccer!
That's just it, you dont have the attention span, you need at least 37 stoppages a half to not lose interest. Which to me is stupid.
An american football game goes on for about 3 hours, but the game clock runs for 48 minutes? That is stupid, I'm sorry it is.

Comparing injuries between football and american football is stupid too. The sports are no way similar other than they are played on a field. But anyone who says you cant get hurt playing football, sorry soccer hasnt a fucking clue.

If you think soccer is boring to watch because no goals are scored well you missed the point really. Why does there have to be loads of goals for it to be entertaining? I've seen some outstanding matches finish 0-0. Scoring in NFL and NBA means a hell of a lot less than in soccer because the scores are so high.

The ignorance in the States towards soccer means it will probably never be a massive sport there. The few good players you have are trying desperatley to ply their trade in Europe. Brian McBride, Casey Keller and Brad Friedle are the only names that come to mind, but I think someone plays for Rangers too, his name escapes me.

Whoever said soccer isnt a betting sport you are so off it's not funny. It is a massive betting sport. No we dont have stats on yardage and crap because it has no merit in the game. I'm not going to bet on the NFL because frankly I know sweet fuck all about it. I do however know quite a bit about soccer and I certainly know enough info to place intelligent bets.

Ok, because I havent read all this thread and because it's late and because I'm quite pissed off with a lot of comments posted here I'm going to end this rant.

Ok, I just read this and I have to comment again.
This is exactly why I'm glad soccer isnt a big sport in North America. You want to bastardise the game to suit yourselves and then you think the whole world should follow. Eh no. I'm sorry.
The game is interesting as it is. Why change it?
I really do have to stop reading this now, before I lose my temper, which is pretty silly because this is only a thread on a web forum, but anyway.

Hurling and Gaelic Football are tougher sports than most a lot of the stuff mentioned here. You've just never heard of them.
Yes I am aware this is my third post in a row, and yes I am aware I said I wouldnt post anymore in the above posts, but meh what cha gonna do. :)

The other countries of the world have its best athletes playing these sports.

The US best athletes play basketball, American football, hockey (to a lesser extent) and baseball. If the best US athletes played soccer and the other sports...I truly believe that you would see Americans do so much better in these sports. Instead we send for the most part our 3rd and 4th level athletes to compete.


Art

The question was why the sport is not more popular in the US. someone gave an idea on how to make it more popular. They are not saying that it has to be this way but if you want the sport more popular in the US then you would probably need to change some of the rules.

So you know the US has bastardised some of the rules in Basketball to the International game and it did not ruin the sport here....but I guess the rest of the world is to rigid to change anything and does not want any real competition..;)


art

One of the most exciting aspects about soc-- football (that someone above suggested changing) is the fact that it's so low scoring. In football, when your opponent has a 2-0 lead on you, you know that you've got to fight like a fucking madman to hope to even get an equalizer, let alone try to win.

Whereas in basketball or american football, coming back from dozens of points behind is childs play. Hardly makes a single basket/touchdown such an exciting matter.

Coming from dozens of points behind in American football is not child's play.

Very few teams do this. College football this happens much more frequently but in the NFL it is not really realstic to be dozens of point behind and win.

Basketball is a totally different can of worms. Coming back from dozens of points happens more frequently but it is usually exciting in itself because it means one of the teams is shooting lights out on 3 pointers.

Also are you suggesting that teams who are dozens of points down in the two sports you named do not have to fight like fucking madmen to come back to win the game? Or do you suggest that one team usually just lies down and lets the other team score that many on a team?

Btw when you say dozens....do you mean 24+ as dozens would suggest?

Art

I'm saying that the effort involved in getting two goals in a match in football is much more than the effort in getting two baskets in a basketball match.

As such, comebacks are easier in basketball than football, and are not as exciting (to me).

You are talking two baskets now? Before it was dozens.

I mean you are talking apple and oranges when you are talking about scoring in three totally different points.

It is not any easier in Football to come back down from dozens of points in the NFL than it is in soccer. They are both exciting but each in its own way.

Lions down by 28....Rogers returns a punt 87 yards for a touchdown.

versus

Beckham taking a ball down the middle of the field passing to someone and then putting in a header.

Is either any less exciting? I would say not really. They both get your blood flowing....goose pimples down your arms and gives you hope.

I will not even comment on basketball because I do agree that coming back in that sport is relatively easy but it is still exciting nonetheless.


Art

Look, I'm not trying to start a flame war or anything, I'm just offering my opinions of why I think soccer is more exciting.

I was using "two baskets" as a one-for-one comparison, not a more accurate one (which may have been something like 10 baskets to one goal). As for American Football, I don't watch it enough to know exactly how difficult it is to get touchdowns, but scores are normally (with 7pt/a touchdown if I remember correctly) upwards of 30, which would imply about 4 or 5 touchdowns. Still higher scoring than your average football game.

Either way, I can understand that people find American football exciting, but I was chipping in my thoughts on football.

Part of it is mentality, back when I played soccer as a little kid, my friends used to insist that soccer was game invented by european housewives while their husbands went out and hunted, which I believe they stole from a T.V. show.
The other part of it is that simply wasn't big to start with, I grew up watching baseball, never watched basketball and I still watch baseball and still never watch basketball. It's hard to get people to just start getting interested in something, without a media blitz.
Then again, my Spanish teacher in High School used to play soccer professionally (outside the U.S.) and told of all the beatdowns he put on the other people, and of a fan being stabbed with a screwdriver for sitting in the wrong section (not even Red Sox/Yanks are that bad. I guess if soccer were more violent, it would appeal to more of the people here as well.

I dont understand something.

You are basing that the NFL is not exciting because you score 7 points instead of 1 at a time. Does it really matter how much a score is worth? What if soccer/football were worth 4 instead of 1? Would that make it any less exciting for you? Even though the only thing that is different is what something is worth.

If you want to say that soccer is more exciting than football because you believe so that is fine but you used things that are untrue when trying to back up why your "opinion" is correct.

Again you are comparing apples and oranges when trying to compare basketball and American football with soccer/football because the scoring is so different.

you would have been better comparing hockey with soccer but then you would defeat the purpose because at the end of the game with a team down by two things get very exciting..:)

Learn your sports before making comparsions it makes thing easier on everyone.


Art

I would say that the NFL team scores between 18-25 points per game. The better offenses score upwards of around 25-32 per game but it does not happen every game.

Now, I apologize if I'm misinterpreting your words, but you seem to coming across as fairly hostile, so I'm being defensive here:

I have admitted I'm not too familiar with American football, and I wasn't the first in this thread to offer basketball as another sport to compare football against. In that case, why bring up American Football? Why not compare Rugby (or Aussie rules Football) with American Football, and leave soccer alone?

The point that I was trying to make is that there were a few ways to make points in American football (field goal or touchdown), and that because of that discrepancy, it was possible for one team to quickly outdistance the other, while both are "scoring" at the same intervals. I do understand the need to differentiate between the two in terms of points, but that's yet another reason why I don't think American football should be compared to football, if you're not allowing basketball <-> football.

This statment is confusing...if you know a lot about football and know enough about soccer...why would that stop you from betting on football but keep on betting on soccer?

Please also take American Culture into consideration. Money is our driving force here. American sports, with their stats are betting games. Of course you can bet on soccer and so on, that's obvious...anyone can make it as simple as "If this team wins, I get the money, if that team wins you get the money", but the first thing you have to do is get people to watch and enjoy the teams. Soccer is not popular enough, and the action isn't quick enough to employ that philosophy.

Mind you I love soccer. The 1998 world cup, and Frances amazing run had me screaming for the 2002 world cup to come, but when I realize I had to wake up 7:00am in the morning to watch a game...that was annoying as hell. But there's not enough odds, and not enough scoring and stats to interest the US market.

People just accept that some things don't work some places.

Cricket will probably never be a major US sport, etc.

It doesn't catch on here because it's so slow compared to most of our other sports.

Baseball really isn't as popular as most people think anymore - football is pretty much in the door as the national game to watch.

Soccer is just a bit slow-paced for most normal Americans.

That being said, I love the game.

It's confusing because it's being read slightly out of context. I didn't quote the original post it was refering to which stated you cant bet on soccer because there are not enough stats, or something to that effect I can't remember the exact wording.

That, or, you mis-read what I wrote.

As for the rest of your post. Imo it's a sad state of affairs if the major driving force behind sport is money and not love of the game. Soccer may not be popular in the states regarding betting, but I'd say there is a good chance that it is one of the biggest things to bet on in Europe after Horse and Greyhound racing.

Cricket is only a major sport in a handful of countries to be honest.


- - - - - -

Soccer is not a slow game. Well it depends upon whose playing but in general the English and Spanish game is played at a quick pace and is quite attacking. Italian football is slower, where play builds up gradually before attacks.

Imo American Football is a far slower game. There's so many breaks how can the game ever really flow? It cant really. This is a major factor behind it not catching on well anywhere other than the states. Also people dont get the rules and well it was never marketed over here.


- - - - - -

Doesnt really say too much for America now does it? I know you cant tar everyone with the same brush but people that need violence in sport to be entertained are idiots. If you want to see people hitting each other watch a boxing match.
The majority of violence in football is between fans. There are some bitter rivalries out there. Lazio and Roma for example. Full of neo-nazi and facist bullshit, most of it coming from the Lazio side. Unfortunatley there is a hooligan element to football supporters, it's a very small minority, but they make enough noise and cause enough trouble for it to be in the limelight.
Also in Argentina and Brazil you get some serious fighting.

The pace slowly builds up. In close games there's nothing better than a come-back drive led by Brett Farve, or in the past John Elway. Also, that's in pro football where the play clock is 40 seconds long, in college it's only 25 seconds which can speed up the game considerably.

Holy shit. I do dig soccer (only in the world cup when it matters, though), but if the rest of the world dictated our music like they'd like to dictate our sports, we'd be listening to nothing but spice girls and crappy german techno--not like we're far from it, but holy christ. I'd be in hell listening to nothing but British radio. And even more hell getting stuck listening to Eastern Euro radio. Talk about lack of variety...
Cheese

And you wonder why it's popular there? Don't you see that it's popular were people bet on it? As I said, it's different for each country.

Money isn't the main reason, but realize it's that money that exposes those sports.

Also History is important for US sports. Baseball, Football, Baseketball...they are very known for being american and having the american history with them.

Why do people like Rugby? Because of the insane level of strategy?

Maybe that's another reason why we don't like soccer, because our world doesn't revolve around any sports, our major businesses won't shut down for any games, and we won't have a riot because there's a longstanding rivalry.

Hell, you go to Lambeau field decked head-to-toe in Bears clothing, you won't be smacked upside the head, you'll probably be given a brat or two, a couple of beers and some nice conversations with some good ol' people that realize that sports are for ENTERTAINMENT. Not for some political statement, or some idea that you're a lesser person because you're some other teams fan. The closest thing in America you ever get to that is in Philly if you go and piss off an Eagles fan. Then again, if you piss off anyone from Philly, there's the likelyhood you're going to get your ass kicked either way.

or raiders fans.