MontanaXVI

One thing I see is that trade review is set to commish.

In my experiences this needs to be owner votes. All it takes is the commish to push one trade through that someone doesn't like and all hell can break loose. At least with the owner votes the majority of the league has to vote against it for it do veto.


Why are passing TD only worth 5 points when all others are 6?


Also, we won't have a K this year?

__________________
Spank you very much

essendoubleop

My original thinking with the commissioner reviewing trades was that it would act as including both forms of vetoing trades. I'm assuming this will be an active league and if a few teams all share a concern about a possible trade, the commissioner can review it. In attempt to keep trades efficient, the review period is two days. That is likely not enough to expect at least 5 teams to log on, review trades, and for all of them to decide it is unfair and to protest a trade. It only takes a small number of teams to post their protests if there is a problem and the trade will be looked into. I think with this option, trades will run more smoothly and the protest process will be more transparent.

Passing TDs occur much more frequently than other TDs, placing an exaggerated importance on the QB position. Many fantasy football leagues have lower scoring for passing TDs. ESPN's and Yahoo's default settings are both 4 points.

No kickers this year. With 16 teams drafting for 13 rounds I figured that was an easy concession to make. They're so random and largely only consequential in close games that I think fantasy football will phase them out more and more.

35 DAYS LEFT!!!

Jetée

Oh, thank goodness it's only 13 rounds... I would have been fine with 12, but 13 is one more than the minimum I would have conceded to, so thank you.

__________________
As human beings, our greatness lies not so much in being able to remake the world (that is the myth of the Atomic Age) as in being able to remake ourselves.

—Mohandas K. Gandhi

MontanaXVI

I don't see how a TD being the same point value for passing vs running or receiving places an exaggerated importance on QB. The QB already has to throw for more yards to get a point for passing yards than a RB or WR has to for rushing or receiving to get points so doesn't it all equal out?

I don't agree with the default scoring being 4 either, TD is 6 points, let it be 6. The other points can all be up for question because it is something you are adding to make the fantasy aspect of it such as PPR, or receiving yards or even a bonus point after every 100 etc.



I still say league votes is the fairest way to go. If a guy doesn't like a trade let him hit the veto button and be done with it. He shouldn't have to go to the commish or post something up stating his opinions on it because that just opens up more criticism from those who are involved in the trade. I am just going from the majority of experiences in the past, if someone was to put up that they think trade XX is unfair then the owners involved usually then get into debate with that owner about why it isn't or is. If it is league votes each owner can cast their no vote, or just be silent and let it go if they feel it is fair, all the while remaining anonymous.

If 2 teams make a trade and I don't like player X, I voice my displeasure of the trade and you, as the commish, decide my reasons aren't valid you are in effect nullifying my vote, that shouldn't be the case. Each owner has their say on it no matter the reasons.

I have been in leagues where no other owner ever lets a trade go through, that's just the way it is, I may not want to lose ground on the first place team, or an opponent I am playing that week.

__________________
Spank you very much

Mister Coaster

It would appear I dropped the ball on this... looks like the league is full. If someone decides to drop out before the draft, I'll take the spot.

__________________
If you have any poo... fling it NOW!

MontanaXVI

Talk about dropping the ball.

I was trying to leave one league o join another and left the TFP league by mistake. Glad I got back in before anyone else joined up.

__________________
Spank you very much

Jetée

I have had a hard time refixing my team's identifying logo within Yahoo!, especially without completely destroying the logos of my other FF teams; can you only have one individual picture to identify your Yahoo! team(s), along with either using your avatar or one of those 10 generic helmets to show your team's individuality?

__________________
As human beings, our greatness lies not so much in being able to remake the world (that is the myth of the Atomic Age) as in being able to remake ourselves.

—Mohandas K. Gandhi

essendoubleop

Yeah, I was having this problem too. Apparently, you can only use one picture at a time for you Yahoo Sports leagues. Now my picture is the same for all the leagues but it's not too big a problem.

Jetée

Yeah, my avatar is still stuck in 2007 mode. I don't know what i was thinking even devoting more than an hour (more like three) customizing it.

I've updated my team picture now (hopefully it shows).

__________________
As human beings, our greatness lies not so much in being able to remake the world (that is the myth of the Atomic Age) as in being able to remake ourselves.

—Mohandas K. Gandhi

Mister Coaster

Burnt Toast dropped out and gave me a heads up, so I'm in!

My new name is The Long Bombs.

__________________
If you have any poo... fling it NOW!

crewsor

I just glanced at the settings. Looks like a lot of deviations from the standard ones. Not sure I understand why they're all necessary but I guess I can live with them. Just seems like a lot of unnecessary changes to me.

__________________
We all have wings, some of us just don't know why.

Mister Coaster

I think the defenseive scoring is pretty odd. It seems like if a QB is getting -1 for being sacked, the Defense should be getting +1, not +.5. Same with the interceptions, -2 for the QB but only +1 for the D? I don't get it.

It also seems extremely strange to have no Kicker. Field goals are a HUGELY important part of the actual game. How many games are decided by that last-second field goal? I feel they should at least play some role in fantasy. I know the K position in fantasy is something of a throw-away, but still.

__________________
If you have any poo... fling it NOW!

Jetée

Maybe we should hash out the details amongst ourselves of how much difference having 16 teams is going to affect the talent pool is going to have on our overall ability to accumulate points. Also make decisions/poll the value of whether "this should net this many points", or whether it is better off higher/lower.

I understand the reasoning in deduction of points slimming, but like Mister Coaster pointed out above, there are some discrepancies.

Also, it seems most of the discrepancies in default points-netting is being skewed to minimize the affect and effectiveness of any team's slotted DEF.

I personally like the position of DEF, because it seems over the years I'm only good at choosing the best ones. I can usually find myself owning Tampa, though last year, in two leagues, I owned both top-scoring Pitt. and Balt. DEF, which helped propel me into the championships.

So, other than that, most of the scoring seems suitable.

---------- Post added at 10:01 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:56 AM ----------

I do have a suggestion though, could you rachet up the points gained on a safety and blocked kicks?

Those are so rare and hard to come by in an entire season, maybe occurring 5 times on average for each instance throughout over 100 regular season games played.

I'd like to see a safety worth 3 or 4 points, and maybe a blocked kick worth the original 2 points (though I do think 1.5 suits better).

__________________
As human beings, our greatness lies not so much in being able to remake the world (that is the myth of the Atomic Age) as in being able to remake ourselves.

—Mohandas K. Gandhi

essendoubleop

I'll certainly look over the scoring settings again. I actually spent over an hour typing up why I set the scoring the way I did and finding statistical evidence from different fantasy leagues to back it up, before I came to the conclusion that it was turning into a colossal time dump for something of trivial importance. Now that I see there is some interest in looking into tinkering with the scoring system, I may break out the statistical war machine again.

In short, though, the goal of adjusting the scoring settings was to make it balanced so no position was disproportionately more important than another. In Yahoo standard leagues, you may as well call it Fantasy Quarterback. Whoever has the uber-quarterback for the season generally wins (barring no holes in their roster). Also, defenses are generally rewarded in fantasy football for sacks, interceptions, safeties, that sort of thing. However, not much weight is actually put into the most important defensive statistic--keeping the other team from scoring points. I toned down the "event" statistical categories and turned up the points awarded for points allowed. This way it's more of a reflection of the ability and performance of the real-life counterpart defense.

Regardless of whatever statistical methods are used in fantasy football, there is no advantage to any one team unless there is an owner who doesn't look over the scoring methodology pre-draft. For instance, in a PPR league, Houshmanzadeh would have a priority over someone like Berrian who catches less passes but for more yardage. With this league, I would say that there may be less of a need to load up at one position and to draft a balanced team.

Jetée

I didn't really think the QB was of much importance in standard-like settings; unless the position was garnering points every 10 yards like RBs and WRs, as well as getting the full value of a TD, well, then that'd have a different thing altogether. (as I see it, 4 points-TD, 1point-25 passing yards is conservative)


I do see your side on the defense argument, though. Personally, I love the defensive side of the ball; it always looks like an opportunity to sway the balance of the game for me and snatch away what looks like a runaway (ol'-school smash-mouth fanatic).

I mean, the most unregarded and unsexy team defense last year was Washington, and they finished overall as a top-5 DEF. I guess they really bogged down the other team, and bent, but never broke, allowing only field goals instead of TDs. Washington games, over the past four years I've noticed are never high-scoring affairs, for either team.
I mean, they lost to the Giants in the opener by a small margin (16-7, I think), then they beat both the Cardinals and Saints (2 of top 3 scoring leaders), and squeaked past the Browns and Lions, and Eagles, in what was probably the least interesting game ever witnessed, winning eventually to the tune of 10-7.


Although you say you want to emphasize the ability of a true defense to limit the amount of points gained, your score setting actually nets you fewer points than the standard Yahoo! settings in every category, save for shutouts. I'd say raise those back to standard, or +1 higher, if you tone down the "event" categories instead.

__________________
As human beings, our greatness lies not so much in being able to remake the world (that is the myth of the Atomic Age) as in being able to remake ourselves.

—Mohandas K. Gandhi

DDDDave

Just my 2 cents here so take it for what it's worth....

When you change up the scoring categories and values from the 'standard', it makes it difficult for regular players to 'figure out' what is most important. I know you are using your experience in prior leagues to create what you think is a more 'fair and balanced' scoring system. But in my experience this tends to just make it 'different' not neccesarily 'better'. Again, JMHO. It certainly gives the 'creator' a decided advantage in drafting because he knows what will be more important in the end.

Also 16 teams really spreads the talent extremely thin. As experienced players know, there are definitely different 'levels' of players at each position. Once all the players of a certain level are drafted the productivity level drops off markedly to the next level. Agreed, there are 30 teams and 30 QB's, but generally, no one is going to win the league with the 16th ranked QB. With 16 teams, the draft order becomes of paramount importance and that is always a random thing.

I was in a league last year with 16 teams that were divided into two conferences. Each conference had their own draft and the two conferences had a playoff at the end. Just something to think about. IMHO, it's more fun when everybody has a 'good' team and is not 'stuck' with also-ran players. Also with 16 teams there will not be many 'available' players to fill in in case of injury. Checking the waiver wire and picking up players is what makes FF fun.

Thanks for being the commish, it is a PITA sometimes. Good Luck, I'll be following this thread.

__________________
I am just a simple man trying to make my way in the universe...

"Go confidently in the direction of your dreams. Live the life you have imagined." - Thoreau

"Nothing great was ever accomplished without enthusiasm" - Emerson

Mister Coaster

essendoubleop, I see your point about rewarding a Defense for stopping the other team from scoring, but if that's your major way for the Defense to score points on fantasy, then just bumping that reward a point or 2 doesn't add up. For example, a Defense that limits the other team to 3 field goals (9 points) or just a single TD + PAT (7 points) would be considered a sparkling defensive performance, yet that is only good for 5, only ONE point higher than Yahoo's default. AND that's 2 points LESS than an interception that gets runback for a TD. Is a single "right place right time" play worth more than an entire game of keeping the other team out of the end zone?

I'm not necessarily saying that Yahoo's defaults are any better, but it is the system I have (most have) been playing under for several seasons. If you feel the need to change so many of the defaults, that's fine, but I'm not seeing the logic behind the values you have changed them to.

And I still cannot figure out why there is no kicker in the league... If points are being scored in a game, they need to be able to be claimed by a fantasy owner. It's that simple. If something like carrying the ball for 30 yards is worth 3 points, then something like a (potentially) game-winning field goal should be worth something too.

__________________
If you have any poo... fling it NOW!

crewsor

I have decided to bow out of this league. Hopefully it is early enough to replace me before the draft date. There are just too many differences from what I am used to. Thanks for your efforts Essendoubleop.

__________________
We all have wings, some of us just don't know why.

essendoubleop

Wow, talk about walking into a beehive; though, I am glad we're garnering a lot of discussion about the scoring now rather than later. With all the talk about the scoring settings, I'm expecting nobody to be griping about it come September. Speak your grievance now while we can still do something about it. My goal is to address the concerns of every owner and to find the right settings for this league that can be agreed upon by the most owners.

Notes:
1) Jetee: I think you are right about the defensive scoring probably needing to be raised higher. Take a look at the top 25 projected defenses scoring from last year compared to the top 25 projected quarterbacks scoring. The defenses scored roughly half of what the quarterbacks scored. The standard deviation is also much lower.

2)DDDave: That's a good point. There is definitely a few drawbacks to having an "original" scoring system. However, it could also be argued that those who have more of a history with Yahoo leagues will have an advantage over others. I've been playing Yahoo leagues (and others) for years and I have noticed a few trends that crop up in the winners (mainly top-shelf quarterbacks winning leagues, take a look at the differences between the top quarterbacks in scoring). There really is no way around it besides familiarizing yourself with the projected scoring "fan points" which can be found by clicking on the "PLAYERS" tab at the league home page and looking at the "fan points" column on the far right side. Notice which statistical categories are important to that position and draft based on their projected stats. Along those lines...

3) Return men. If you look at the return yardage points, you'll see a few running backs and receivers that are higher up than in other leagues. For instance, Steve Breaston's 3 TDs and 900+ return yards netted him 213 points compared to Donald Driver (148 points) even though they had comparable receiving numbers. Do you guys think this places too much of an added bonus to return game? Or do you think it will help expand the available scorers in a 16-team deep league where players like Johnnie Lee Higgins is a viable option? I would certainly be open to at least toning it down a bit.

4) Your point about the teams being unable to compete with the 16th ranked QB is a valid one. That's a good reason why balancing the positions is so important. Even if you get stuck with Chad Pennington, you can still win with a couple sure-fire RBs and a few sleepers at other positions. 16 teams (almost) ensures that every team will have two viable options to start at QB, or to make a trade if necessary. It's really the max size for a fantasy league.

5) Mister Coaster: You're right. The defense category still needs adjusting. Certainly, the points awarded for allowing points should be increased further. Do you suggest toning down the points awarded for a defensive TD as well? I would suggest accounting for YARDAGE allowed as well, but Yahoo doesn't list that as a possible statistical category.

6) I'M pretty firmly against having a roster position for kickers. But if enough owners are for it, we can add them too. I just think that they are too random to project and shouldn't be the deciding factor in close games. They're always drafted in the final round and could be another factor in the randomness of the draft order giving the final team the worst kicker (though they probably won't end up ranked in their slot anyways).

6) Also, the helmets have got to go. Put some interesting pictures up. Use it to create rivalries! One cool addition this year is rivalry week. With 16 teams playing 13 regular season games, we have to use unbalanced schedules which creates the opportunity for creating rivalries.

7) Playoffs look good to everybody? Half the league makes the playoffs, no bye-weeks. It would be cool to have a climbing ladder too but Yahoo doesn't allow for that.



24 DAYS LEFT!!!
(AND ONE SPOT AVAILABLE)

MontanaXVI

I too am going to pass, again for reasons mentioned above just too much for me.

Call me a fuddy duddy or stuck in my ways but I like what I am used to.

Sorry.

__________________
Spank you very much

essendoubleop

Are you sure you don't want to at least give it a shot and stick around? I remember some of the previous leagues having different rule setups.

Mister Coaster

Yeah... I think I'm out too. I was excited to land a spot when it opened up. But with THIS many changes I'm just left scratching my head. REAL games are decided on the kicking game, why not fantasy?

I'll give you a day or 2 to make some serious changes otherwise I'm gone.

SO... Call me a fuddy duddy or stuck in my ways but I like what I am used to.

Sorry.

__________________
If you have any poo... fling it NOW!

DDDDave

Snoop,

I don't want to rain on your parade but I too am going to have to drop out. I don't see how a straight 16 team league is going to work. Have you even considered bye weeks? How will the QB position work? QB's get hurt every week and yet you don't even have enough for each team to have 2. Are you telling me that one of my receiver positions will need to be a returner because of the extra weight placed there? How many top returners are there, like 3? No kicker????

Sorry.

__________________
I am just a simple man trying to make my way in the universe...

"Go confidently in the direction of your dreams. Live the life you have imagined." - Thoreau

"Nothing great was ever accomplished without enthusiasm" - Emerson

essendoubleop

Okay, so the take-home message thus far:

14 teams=fine. 16 teams=disaster.

Jimellow

In my experience, 14 teams are ideal for fantasy football. It allows each team to play each other once and thus provides an even playing field before the playoffs begin; providing you have the playoffs run through weeks 14-16.

__________________
Desperation is no excuse for lowering one's standards.

Jetée

I think 10-14 teams is fine. 8 is the minimum, which is what I was involved with last season (my rookie season) and I finished 2nd overall.

Noticing that we have twelve teams now, I think the four divisions works out perfectly.
We can have three teams in each division, and the winning divisional teams advance, with perhaps an option that of the eight remaining teams, the top two teams in terms of win-loss record also advance. Just a suggestion for now, because i have no idea if yahoo! has a way to implement this.
Although, there is a discrepancy in which one division has two teams, while the other has four; can this be amended?

__________________
As human beings, our greatness lies not so much in being able to remake the world (that is the myth of the Atomic Age) as in being able to remake ourselves.

—Mohandas K. Gandhi

essendoubleop

Yes, I will certainly balance the divisions after the draft. I'm not going to lock the league just yet, though I think we've given ample opportunity for anyone who has to wanted to join to do so.

4 DAYS LEFT

dougalputt

Ben Foster was a must since Van Der Sar is out

dksuddeth

Week one is over. whats everyone think so far? I'm having a blast for this being my first league.

__________________
"no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything. You cannot conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him."

Jetée

I highly over-rated my team. And I can't pick matchups to save my life.

Hopefully week 1 was an aberration for my running backs, but I highly doubt it. It seems as though Darren Sproles is my RB1 for the rest of the season.

__________________
As human beings, our greatness lies not so much in being able to remake the world (that is the myth of the Atomic Age) as in being able to remake ourselves.

—Mohandas K. Gandhi

essendoubleop

Yeah the first couple weeks are near impossible to gauge matchups (save the Rams and Lions). Sproles is looking to be an excellent pickup.

grumpyolddude

I'm trying really hard to not overreact to the first couple of weeks results. Can't let 2 games define a player's whole season. But if I get whacked by the league's hottest RB once more... hell, what CAN i do about that?

__________________
"Regret can be a harder pill to swallow than failure .With failure you at least know you gave it a chance..." David Howard

dksuddeth

week 2 in the books. what a weird week for injuries.

__________________
"no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything. You cannot conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him."

dksuddeth

week 3 just about done. what's everyone thinking?

__________________
"no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything. You cannot conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him."

Jetée

I still have no faith in my "elite" players, and I overthink the matchups, injuries, and my affinity for Leon Washington and Darren Sproles makes slating my roster each week nerve-wracking.

But, I'm having fun, and I guess that's what matters. Still, I'd like to cook up a better streak that involves more "W"'s than "L"'s.

I did like this coincidence last week: all NFC North teams (GB, Minn., Det., Chi.) won their respective games.

__________________
As human beings, our greatness lies not so much in being able to remake the world (that is the myth of the Atomic Age) as in being able to remake ourselves.

—Mohandas K. Gandhi

dksuddeth

what many may find unreal is that I would have gained more points if i'd played kyle orton and knowshon instead of Brees and kevin faulk.

__________________
"no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything. You cannot conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him."

Jetée

Yeah, it's weird. I knew I *should* have sat Frank Gore this past weekend, but everyone always says I'd be a fool to sit my first/second round pick at any point in the season. I would have won had I trusted my instinct, but I lost due to listening to the masses.

Also, had I not been insisted to lunch early, I would have subsitituted McFadden for Moreno in that game; I had a feeling he would be more productive. I lost that game as well.

Go with your gut. It'll help you more often and alleviate that feeling of regret you'd have with a tough game for your star player; better to see if you have a more favorable option elsewhere.

__________________
As human beings, our greatness lies not so much in being able to remake the world (that is the myth of the Atomic Age) as in being able to remake ourselves.

—Mohandas K. Gandhi

Cross-Over

You can't predict injury, so you assume Frank Gore would have played the whole game last week. That being said, you never bench your studs, especially after they run for 2 TDs and around 200 yards.

Wouldn't that feeling of regret been worse if Gore repeats his performance from the previous week while he is on your bench?

dksuddeth

looks like I owe the San Fran D/ST a round of beer.

__________________
"no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything. You cannot conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him."

dksuddeth

how many people have quit playing this league already?

__________________
"no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything. You cannot conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him."