The Lightning Bolt, and unproven allegations of cheating - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

Strange Famous · 12-03-2008, 12:17 PM

I have two questions for people who have expressd views on this.

On what basis is it fair or justified to state that Usain Bolt is a cheat when he has never failed a drugs test (and been tested at least 6 times in 2008)

If you, in your heart, look at Bolt's performances and decided you believe he is a cheat - is there any point being a fan of track?

__

To me, until I see any evidence that he cheated, he's clean. The 100 Metres was one of the most electrifying things Ive ever seen - and no one (including all the drug cheats of the last 20 years) has ever run like that and blown away an Olympic field with that kind of power. The 200 Metres was even more impressive in a way, because we knew what Bolt was capable of and the anticipation was there that he could challenge one of the greatest records in track... I remember involuntarily standing as he came round the bend, not quite believing how far ahead of everyone he was... the commentator babbling at the end "into a 0.9 headwind, I dont believe it... (and then prompted by the editor in his earpiece no doubt) "Im sorry, I have no idea who finished second and third..."

I dont deny that there have been a lot of disappointments, especially in sprinting - but if this has left you so jaded that you cant simply let the magnificence of his achievment carry you away - what can you get from watching track?

__

To me, Bolt is one of the first athletes who kind of carries this personal myth, and you start to believe he could do things which are impossible (could he win the 400 too, did he really cross the line in the 4x100 M to hug Safa Powell before some of the other teams finish, were the US relay team really so scared of Bolt they threw the baton down rather than face him again in the final...)

dlish · 12-04-2008, 01:08 PM

SF..its easy..if its too good to be true..its usually not.

lets start with the long list of athletics drug cheats..all of them SPRINTERS. these are off the top of my head

ben johnson
justin gatlin
tim montgomery
marion jones
flo jo
carl lewis
dwayne chambers
linford christie

id rather be a pessimist than bury my head in the sand and say how good a particular tahlete is. id rather not bang someones drum if im even slightly unsure of their credibility.

sure, usain bolt has performed exceptionally. but are we sure its clean? i say no based on my research into the 100m world record progression.

of all the 13 times someone has run under 9.80, 7 of those times have been run this year. and all except one has been run in the last 3 years. theres definately something not right there.

we also have the issue with the progression itself. the shorter the distance, the quicker the progression plataeus. in the case of the 100m, the progression gradient has become steeper considerably. in the last 2 years alonethe world record progression has been reduced by 0.82%. that is daylight in terms of 100m sprinting (about 1m).

with the short distance, you would expect that the progression should only be a hundred of a second every few years or so. but the steep decline in World Records rings alarm bells. even marathon times are not reduced by those sorts of percentages.

i like to take my athletic sprinters with a grain of salt. and while i predicted usain bolt would win both 100m and 200m (check out jazz's beijing athletics thread)- powell is a choker and gay was injured.

i could also go into how lax jamaican drug testing is as opposed to other countries, and how there was no testing before this year! but i wont go there now.

the drug problem in sprinting is part of the reason why i love middle/long distance runners. legends like hicham el guerrouj, said aouita, nouredine morceli, haile gebrasellaise, sebastian coe, and my favourite kenyan, the legendary john ngugi have never been accused of doping. and all of these guys broke world records and championship records. they probably share 50 world records and world championship records between them, but there are no accusations of drug cheating. do you see why i take sprinting with a grain of salt?

with regards to the 400m - bolt himself said that he was too lazy to train for the 400, so it gives you an insight into the type of athlete he is.

yes i think time will show that usain is a drug cheat. the numbers themselves prove it. i dont need a test to tell me.

i do hope im wrong. i really do. ive lost sleep tossing and turning over this one.. it will be a sad day for athletics when the news breaks.

Strange Famous · 12-04-2008, 01:52 PM

If Usain Bolt was found to have cheated I doubt I'd bother to watch 2012.

But you use a phrase such as "the numbers prove he has cheated"... what kind of proof is this? He is too good so he must be a cheat? He was tested at the Olympics and he tested clean. That is the fact here.

highthief · 12-04-2008, 02:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dlish

sure, usain bolt has performed exceptionally. but are we sure its clean? i say no based on my research into the 100m world record progression.

of all the 13 times someone has run under 9.80, 7 of those times have been run this year. and all except one has been run in the last 3 years. theres definately something not right there.

we also have the issue with the progression itself. the shorter the distance, the quicker the progression plataeus. in the case of the 100m, the progression gradient has become steeper considerably. in the last 2 years alonethe world record progression has been reduced by 0.82%. that is daylight in terms of 100m sprinting (about 1m).

with the short distance, you would expect that the progression should only be a hundred of a second every few years or so. but the steep decline in World Records rings alarm bells. even marathon times are not reduced by those sorts of percentages.

Dont forget, however, that:

A) Bolt is a very young athlete. It's not unusual to see great progress in the late teen to early twenty years. It would be odd to see a mature runner make such advances, I agree.

B) His focus originally had been more 200/400 - with more concerted 100 training, of course he has improved in the last couple of years.

C) Physically, the guy is a freak. There's been no one with his frame who has really performed at this level.

He has been subjected to a very rigorous in and out of competition testing regime, as have the other Jamaican athletes. If even one of them (Powell or one of the others) tested positive I think we'd all be right to be more suspicious. Until something turns up, I'll give him the benefit of the doubt.

dlish · 12-04-2008, 06:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Strange Famous

If Usain Bolt was found to have cheated I doubt I'd bother to watch 2012.

But you use a phrase such as "the numbers prove he has cheated"... what kind of proof is this? He is too good so he must be a cheat? He was tested at the Olympics and he tested clean. That is the fact here.

im sorry that you only watch athletics once every 4 years... but if i were you i wouldnt particularly ruin it for myself put my eggs in one basket. you really are missing out on some good action. the olympics more than just about one athlete. drugs are and will always remain a part of drugs.

SF there are too many indicators that i have measured against that just do not measure up. i dont make statements like this lightly. ive been around running and swimming my whole life and ill tell you for certainty that every person involved in world has some sort of doubt but are too scared to say it because he's the golden boy. just like ben johnson. everyone knew he was on drugs, no one wanted to come out and say it. in fact out of the 100m lineup in the 88 olympics, i think 6 of them now have been busted for drugs at some point or other. ben, carl , dennis mitchell, linford, and two more that excape me.

his 10m splits for example. its all about speed endurance.in pure physics - the athlete that decelerates the least after reaching top speed will win. he is the ONLY athlete to ever reach his top speed and maintain it all the way through (except for the heroics and the chest thumping circus of the last 10 metres -if you interpolate the results, had he not thumped his chest he would have ran a 9.63 or 9.64 based on these splits. that means that he would have reduced the previous WR mark set in 2007 by asafa 11 months earlier by a whoppng 1.129%!!!!). these were his splits per 10m. most athletes reach top speed at around 40-60 metres. from there they decelerate because their speed endurance reduces. bolts' speed as you can see was maintained all the way through, which is quite unusual and unparralelled in history.

reaction time 0.165s
0-10m 1.85
10-20m 1.02
20-30 0.91
40-50m 0.87
50-60m 0.85
60-70m 0.82
70-80m 0.82
80-90m 0.82
90-100m 0.90

total 9.69

even powells run in 2005 of 9.77 decelarates considerably compares to this. the only person to keep their top speed at all for at least 20m is tim montgomery who is a proven drug cheat. even ben johnson deceleration is huge, and he was on drugs. you would think that the drug cheats would be able to maintain their speed endurance more than the clean one.

like i said, the numbers dont stack up... i still stand by my comments. i still think he's on drugs. you havent shown me anything to convince me he's not.

highthief - as a runner yourself, you would also know that runners and especially sprinters mature and improve and peak at around late twenties to early thirties. as opposed to say swimming where they reach that point at a much younger age (between 16-23.

he may well have been subjected to many drug tests, but whos to say that he's not using a masking agent thats not known yet. ben johnson didnt fail every test he took either. and with the questionable jamaican teams drug testing record, why wouldnt there be a question mark over not only bolt but asafa as well?

p.s. im not sure ill be able to reply to any of this because ill be flying in a few hours and ill be gone for a few days. ill still be able to check TFP from time to time though, so i welcome responses.

QuasiMondo · 12-04-2008, 08:17 PM

What a sad athletic world we're living in that when an athlete overperforms, his performance is suspected to be illegally enhanced.

They can test for masking agents. Case in point is the six NFL players who are fighting suspensions from the league for using a diuretic that masks the presence of steroids in their system. I can only assume that the drug testing program used by the IOC is much more thorough than the one used by the NFL.

Unless he tests positive for a performance enhancing drug or is proven through an investigation to have used performance enhancing drugs, it is unfair to label him a cheat. You're going to need more than just circumstantial evidence to convince me otherwise.

highthief · 12-05-2008, 03:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dlish

highthief - as a runner yourself, you would also know that runners and especially sprinters mature and improve and peak at around late twenties to early thirties. as opposed to say swimming where they reach that point at a much younger age (between 16-23.

Sprinters have tended to hit their peak between 25 and 27 - I'd bet most world records are set, for men, at that age. However, the most dramatic improvements for sprinters tend to occuer between the time they are teenagers and into their early twenties.

If Bolt's times improved in this fashion between the ages of 24 and 29, say, it would be very alarming. The fact that he improved his times substantially between 17 and 22 isn't particularly out of whack. He started from a pretty high standard to begin with, especially at 200.

Strange Famous · 12-05-2008, 03:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dlish

im sorry that you only watch athletics once every 4 years... but if i were you i wouldnt particularly ruin it for myself put my eggs in one basket. you really are missing out on some good action. the olympics more than just about one athlete. drugs are and will always remain a part of drugs.

SF there are too many indicators that i have measured against that just do not measure up. i dont make statements like this lightly. ive been around running and swimming my whole life and ill tell you for certainty that every person involved in world has some sort of doubt but are too scared to say it because he's the golden boy. just like ben johnson. everyone knew he was on drugs, no one wanted to come out and say it. in fact out of the 100m lineup in the 88 olympics, i think 6 of them now have been busted for drugs at some point or other. ben, carl , dennis mitchell, linford, and two more that excape me.

his 10m splits for example. its all about speed endurance.in pure physics - the athlete that decelerates the least after reaching top speed will win. he is the ONLY athlete to ever reach his top speed and maintain it all the way through (except for the heroics and the chest thumping circus of the last 10 metres -if you interpolate the results, had he not thumped his chest he would have ran a 9.63 or 9.64 based on these splits. that means that he would have reduced the previous WR mark set in 2007 by asafa 11 months earlier by a whoppng 1.129%!!!!). these were his splits per 10m. most athletes reach top speed at around 40-60 metres. from there they decelerate because their speed endurance reduces. bolts' speed as you can see was maintained all the way through, which is quite unusual and unparralelled in history.

reaction time 0.165s
0-10m 1.85
10-20m 1.02
20-30 0.91
40-50m 0.87
50-60m 0.85
60-70m 0.82
70-80m 0.82
80-90m 0.82
90-100m 0.90

total 9.69

even powells run in 2005 of 9.77 decelarates considerably compares to this. the only person to keep their top speed at all for at least 20m is tim montgomery who is a proven drug cheat. even ben johnson deceleration is huge, and he was on drugs. you would think that the drug cheats would be able to maintain their speed endurance more than the clean one.

like i said, the numbers dont stack up... i still stand by my comments. i still think he's on drugs. you havent shown me anything to convince me he's not.

highthief - as a runner yourself, you would also know that runners and especially sprinters mature and improve and peak at around late twenties to early thirties. as opposed to say swimming where they reach that point at a much younger age (between 16-23.

he may well have been subjected to many drug tests, but whos to say that he's not using a masking agent thats not known yet. ben johnson didnt fail every test he took either. and with the questionable jamaican teams drug testing record, why wouldnt there be a question mark over not only bolt but asafa as well?

p.s. im not sure ill be able to reply to any of this because ill be flying in a few hours and ill be gone for a few days. ill still be able to check TFP from time to time though, so i welcome responses.

Im not an avid fan of track, but I watch more than once every 4 years. I watch most major international meets, the world and european and commonwealth championships, and catch highlights when they are normal TV... I stated that I wouldnt watch 2012 for effect - since it is a big thing for UK.

Simply because what Usain Bolt did first in the 100, then confirmed in the 200 was one of the most electrifying and greatest things Ive seen in my life as a sports fan - and if it turned out to be a lie, this sport would be dead to me.

But I believe Usain is clean - he is simply one of those athletes that comes once in every 50 years (like Tiger, like Jordan, like Federer, like Pele, like Jem Mace - etc)

dlish · 12-14-2008, 01:41 PM

Will Anyone Ever Run A 3 Minute Mile? - TIME

some reading i was doing. interesting to see that although this may not be considered cheating now, but somewhere down the track it probably would. god knows if anyones taking advantage of it now.. do we assume that everyone is clean?

highthief - from recent memory id have to disagree with you. in the last say 10-15 years of 100m T&F, the athletes that performed the best were edging towards 30.

from the Lewis/Burrell/Mitchell era, to Christie, Greene, Bailey, have all been at their peak once they edged 30.

SF - all those names you mentioned are sportmen who either 1) play a team sport or 2) play a sport against a course.( i have no idea who jem mace is though.) the 100m is against other individuals. theres a big difference

Strange Famous · 12-14-2008, 01:54 PM

Jem Mace was the father of modern boxing.

I have to say that to me it doesnt seem that strange that Usain got so good so quick, he's had a lot of injuries and he's 22 - this is probably the first season he's been fully fit and had a fully developed body.

And the time he ran over the 100 isnt THAT outrageous - I believe Tyson Gay has run close to that (although with an illegal tail wind)

highthief · 12-14-2008, 02:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dlish

highthief - from recent memory id have to disagree with you. in the last say 10-15 years of 100m T&F, the athletes that performed the best were edging towards 30.

Bailey and Lewis were pushing 30 for their best performances, but Burrell, Boldon, Owens, Fredericks, Mitchell and yes, Ben Johnson were all several years younger.

dlish · 08-17-2009, 12:04 AM

bump.....*coug cough cough..CHOKE*

The_Jazz · 08-17-2009, 05:18 AM

Ah, I'd forgotten all about this thread.

Bolt did something amazing yesterday. I didn't get to watch (unfortunately the majority wanted to watch the PGA yesterday), and I haven't seen the video yet, but it's already been described to me as "the most powerful sprint ever filmed". Based on the facts that it's the biggest reduction of the 100M since electronic timing started and that he won by over .3, I'll accept that.

What I won't accept is that Bolt is 100% clean. The Jamacians are ahead of the curve with their drug regime. The testing is typically 2 to 3 years behind the drug producers, so assuming that anyone who passes a test is completely clean is just willful ignorance and hopeful thinking. Maybe Bolt is enough of a genetic freak to do this completely unaided, but I have to doubt it.

fresnelly · 08-17-2009, 05:42 AM

Speaking as a Canadian who had his heart crushed by Ben Johnson's failure, I strongly hope for Jamaica's sake that Bolt is legit. It would be devastating to their national pride if he was a cheat.

dlish · 08-17-2009, 06:03 AM

when drug cheats were breaking records by 0.01secs, its disheartening to believe that someone clean is breaking records by such vast numbers.

i remember watching the world championships in tokyo as a young teen, staying till the wee hours of the morning watching carl lewis run a 9.86 in what was the fastest 100m lineup ever thinking that his record would stand for decades.

Lewis who ended up being a drug cheat, has had his record annihalated time and time again by this younger generation.

i do hope he's clean, but sadly, even proven drug cheats claim they're clean. it's always their doctors/trainers/coach/mothers fault for giving them deer penis herbs for vitality into their breakfast cereal.

this can either be the greatest race ever, or the biggest bunch of doped up athletes ever. i'll take the latter.

Leto · 08-17-2009, 06:05 AM

Carl Lewis??? on dope? he cheated???? WTF. After he gloated over Ben Johnson. what an ass hat

ironman · 08-17-2009, 09:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Leto

Carl Lewis??? on dope? he cheated???? WTF. After he gloated over Ben Johnson. what an ass hat

I'd like to know where dlish is taking this accusations from, all I've been able to find is that he gave positive for drugs found on cough medicine before the 1998 Olympics. Carl was one of my personal heroes as I was growing up, and is hard to belive he was a Cheat. What are your sources Dlish?

Daniel_ · 08-17-2009, 09:43 AM

I don't know if Bolt has cheated, but in history I can confirm that many drugs are discovered to be performance enhancing long before a test for them exists, and therefore it is clearly possible that Bolt has found a new form of doping that is as yet undetectable.

This is why samples are frozen and retained for years in case new techniques come on board that allow old drugs and doping techniques to be detected.

The sheer magnitude of the record breaking margin in this case makes it seem very odd that he should achieve it without cheating.

The_Jazz · 08-17-2009, 09:45 AM

I'm sure that you and dlish are talking about the same incident. Unfortunately, it's pretty much accepted that the "inadvertent" ruling by the USOC was pretty much complete and utter bullshit.

Carl Lewis's positive test covered up - smh.com.au

The USOC has gotten better in recent years, but they spent well over a decade colluding with their top athletes. There are still systemic problems, in my opinion.

dippin · 08-17-2009, 10:39 AM

Is it possible to cheat and not be caught? Sure. You have billions being spent on discovering new drugs, and only a very small fraction of that on detecting them, so detection lags discovery significantly. Besides, even when they know how to test for the drugs, often the thresholds to be found guilty are so high that it is easy to play around them. So it is possible to dope up and never be caught.

But what I think it is fascinating is who the western media decides to paint as likely cheaters. Sports forums, blogs, sports radio and TV have all been speculating if Bolt uses drugs. Meanwhile, despite mountain evidence, Lance Armstrong is still considered clean and most media attacked the French labs, and Ive not seen anyone discussing Phelps...

The_Jazz · 08-17-2009, 11:25 AM

I go back and forth on Armstrong. I'm currently thinking "clean", mainly because he just did a mountain bike race in the US that he lost by 2 minutes 2 years ago. He beat the guy who beat him then by something like 20 minutes this year. Two years ago, he basically put down the Cheetos, got off the couch and still placed second. This year he trained. He also pioneered the "live low, train high" doctrine for cycling (distance runners, particularly East Africans, have been doing that very successfully for decades).

Phelps? I'm pretty sure he held age group national records as a kid and that he was the youngest swimmer ever on the Olympic team. He didn't exactly explode on the scene like Bolt. He's been a force for a long time. It's guys like him and Gebrselassie that are quite obviously the genetic freaks that some folks think Bolt is. I'm just not one of those.

ratbastid · 08-17-2009, 11:42 AM

I think we should have an all-drug league for pretty much all sports. Imagine super-enhanced dudes on teams sponsored by Merck and Glaxxo-SmithKline dunking on baskets 30 feet off the ground! Running the 100 meters in like 2 seconds! It'd be AWESOME!!

dippin · 08-17-2009, 11:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The_Jazz

I go back and forth on Armstrong. I'm currently thinking "clean", mainly because he just did a mountain bike race in the US that he lost by 2 minutes 2 years ago. He beat the guy who beat him then by something like 20 minutes this year. Two years ago, he basically put down the Cheetos, got off the couch and still placed second. This year he trained. He also pioneered the "live low, train high" doctrine for cycling (distance runners, particularly East Africans, have been doing that very successfully for decades).

Phelps? I'm pretty sure he held age group national records as a kid and that he was the youngest swimmer ever on the Olympic team. He didn't exactly explode on the scene like Bolt. He's been a force for a long time. It's guys like him and Gebrselassie that are quite obviously the genetic freaks that some folks think Bolt is. I'm just not one of those.

Bolt has been winning gold medals in youth championships since 2002. Im not saying he is clean. Im just wondering why the suspicions over him and not the others.

Meanwhile, there is quite a lot of evidence that Lance cheated. He trained with a notorious supplier of PEDs, several of his teammates tested positive, the 99 test came back positive when they finally devised a way to test for EPO, former masseuses and teammates have reported witnessing him use PEDs, etc. Not surprisingly, short after his retirement a large number of cyclists were caught cheating as well.

The_Jazz · 08-17-2009, 12:19 PM

Bolt won the 2002 Junior WC in the 200M, which is where someone with is body type is more prototypically successful. He's the tallest world record holder in the 100M by 2" (Carl Lewis). There's also quite a bit of rumor floating around the Jamacian team since they set so many records in Beijing. There's a conventional wisdom theory floating around that says that some of the lower echelon (i.e. not the medalists) are going to start testing positive soon since they're less likely to stay on the cutting edge and that the testing will catch up to them.

Like I said, I go back and forth on Lance. There's evidence both ways. Again as I said, my pendulumn has swung to "clean" for now. We'll see if it stays there. It rarely does for folks with as many suspicions cast upon him.

dippin · 08-17-2009, 12:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The_Jazz

Bolt won the 2002 Junior WC in the 200M, which is where someone with is body type is more prototypically successful. He's the tallest world record holder in the 100M by 2" (Carl Lewis). There's also quite a bit of rumor floating around the Jamacian team since they set so many records in Beijing. There's a conventional wisdom theory floating around that says that some of the lower echelon (i.e. not the medalists) are going to start testing positive soon since they're less likely to stay on the cutting edge and that the testing will catch up to them.

Like I said, I go back and forth on Lance. There's evidence both ways. Again as I said, my pendulumn has swung to "clean" for now. We'll see if it stays there. It rarely does for folks with as many suspicions cast upon him.

I understand your point, and I don't really question them. My point is more on the narrative of the cases, which I suspect is in large part driven by the American centered media and the American centered sponsors. It's like how the "East German swim team" meme has stuck around in sports mythology but not the BALCO era.

The_Jazz · 08-17-2009, 12:54 PM

What in the world are you talking about? The "East German swim team" isn't a myth. The East German Women's Swim Teams were quite possibly the dirtiest in history and were in part responsible for the advent of the World Doping Agency.

Manfred Ewald - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I'm not really sure what's meant by the BALCO referrence, since that's just one lab producing PED's, and the East Germans reputable had quite a few and worked with the Soviets.

If you're trying to make some argument that this is somehow an American-devised conspiracy theory, then I think you should look at who's posted in this thread. I'm pretty certain I'm the only American track fan here. There are lots of others, but I'm the only American one in this thread.

Strange Famous · 08-17-2009, 01:20 PM

As far as I am concerned believe are still innocent until proven guilty, not the other way round. The guy is tested all the time and has always been clean

And did anyone see the race last night?

Just cant get my head round what he did... cant get my head round how fast Tyson Gay ran and still wasnt close (I mean, yes Usain didnt ease down - but at 60 metres if Gay had come back at him I feel like Usain would have had another gear)

dippin · 08-17-2009, 02:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The_Jazz

What in the world are you talking about? The "East German swim team" isn't a myth. The East German Women's Swim Teams were quite possibly the dirtiest in history and were in part responsible for the advent of the World Doping Agency.

Manfred Ewald - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I'm not really sure what's meant by the BALCO referrence, since that's just one lab producing PED's, and the East Germans reputable had quite a few and worked with the Soviets.

If you're trying to make some argument that this is somehow an American-devised conspiracy theory, then I think you should look at who's posted in this thread. I'm pretty certain I'm the only American track fan here. There are lots of others, but I'm the only American one in this thread.

Never said that it wasn't true. But just as many scandals have come out on the American side.

The point isn't that it is a conspiracy. The point is that the sports media, and the sports sponsors, are mostly based in the US, and as such tend to give friendlier treatment to American athletes. Nothing to do with tfp either.

The_Jazz · 08-17-2009, 02:33 PM

I still don't get it. Track is basically ignored here, except for 2 weeks every four years. This didn't make the front page of any sports page I saw. Although Marion Jones did, but in a negative way.

And if you think that "most" of the track sponsors are in the US, you're a typical American.

dippin · 08-17-2009, 03:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The_Jazz

I still don't get it. Track is basically ignored here, except for 2 weeks every four years. This didn't make the front page of any sports page I saw. Although Marion Jones did, but in a negative way.

And if you think that "most" of the track sponsors are in the US, you're a typical American.

Im not American, and Im not talking exclusively about track.

My question was rather simple: what makes some athletes be treated like phenoms and some like likely drug abusers? Marion Jones was considered a phenom and given the benefit of the doubt for a very long time. Putting it in question form, who was the last American to immediately draw suspicion based on success alone?

And I couldn't help but notice that most athletes that come immediately under suspicion are not Americans. The Jamaican track team, the Chinese gymnasts, the Chinese swimmers, most cyclists not named Lance Armstrong, and so on.

I don't know the specific reason for that, but I think that as a trend it is undeniable that that happens, and one of the reasons I would venture is that most of the international sports media is based in the US, and most of the major sporting event sponsors too.

highthief · 08-17-2009, 03:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dippin

Bolt has been winning gold medals in youth championships since 2002. Im not saying he is clean. Im just wondering why the suspicions over him and not the others.

In the media it's because he's not American? And shouldn't the fingers be pointed at Tyson Gay also? He's freakishly fast too.

Seriously, Phelps should be getting the same treatment but he gets a pass. He's a nice, white American boy.

Bolt has been on the scene for several years getting progressively better. He's only 22, however - it's not like he's had a chance to run in previous Olympics.

---------- Post added at 06:40 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:37 PM ----------

Quote:

Originally Posted by dippin

My question was rather simple: what makes some athletes be treated like phenoms and some like likely drug abusers? Marion Jones was considered a phenom and given the benefit of the doubt for a very long time.

And Jones had so much smoke swirling around her - all her boyfriends and husbands were known users, etc. But until nearly the end, she did indeed get the benefit of the doubt.

allaboutmusic · 08-17-2009, 04:05 PM

As others have pointed out, while obviously Usain ran the fastest 100m ever recorded, the fact is that the whole final was extremely fast. Tyson Gay's time was within 2 hundredths of Usain's last world record. I'd like to think they are all clean, and the evidence so far says he is... but we may not know for a while.

Could there be other technologically related reasons that could be helping the athletes? Possibilities:

track technology - in the same way the pool in Beijing contributed to optimal swimming conditions
shoe technology - may be giving runners an advantage over years ago
training technology - for example, consumers have only been introduced to P90X and similar in the past decade or so. Jamaican trainers may have worked something out that others haven't in preparing their athletes, or warming up etc
nutrition technology - better food served in ways that help the athlete in their dietary approach
clothing technology - less air resistance, skin resistance and rubbing
evolution - human beings are getting taller, etc.

On the subject of evolution and genes etc, would genetic manipulation be considered doping? It could certainly be argued to be cheating.

Strange Famous · 08-18-2009, 10:24 AM

And talent... in my opinion Usain is a once in a generation simple freak who obeys different rules to mere mortals.

And Gay deserves credit... he ran an absolutely incredible time... its just a shame it was in the same race as Bolt.

No one accuses Bekele of cheating either and he's on ever 10,000 he's ever run in... the fact is that the 80's and 90's dida HUGE amout of damage to track... I think the Lightening Bolt is starting to repair that.

I dont know how many watched the race live, an how many of the people who did had the same reaction as me - just amazement, and then joy. I sat in my room literally laughing out loud because I couldnt belive what Bolt had done.

highthief · 08-20-2009, 04:34 PM

19:19 for the 200. Unreal.

This guy might, given a couple of years, go under 19 seconds for the 200. Amazing!

allaboutmusic · 08-20-2009, 11:16 PM

That 200m was unreal. Every stage of the race was absolutely astonishing.

Strange Famous · 08-21-2009, 12:43 AM

19.19!

nomcat · 08-21-2009, 01:53 AM

The man is a machine!

The_Jazz · 08-21-2009, 05:00 AM

That is the most powerful and well run 200 I've ever seen. Every segment was about as perfect as it could be. I knew the result before I watched the video, but it was obvious that he was going to get it when he exploded out of the turn. Wow.

highthief · 08-22-2009, 09:25 AM

So why are the American 4 x 100 relay teams inevitably incompetent? Has anyone dropped the stick, ran out their lanes, or otherwise screwed up as much as team USA? Both the US men and women are out ... again.

dlish · 08-22-2009, 12:09 PM

jazz, apparently he know it was going to be a quick time when he got out of the blocks quickly.he got the quickest reaction time of the lot. i dare say he would have been able to go under 19 if he was pushed all the way.

i still think that breaking the hundred by .11 is a bigger feat than breaking the 200 by .11.

someone care to tell me why in the last few years we've seen an influx of carribean athletes? the sprints used to be dominated by the americans, but it seems that the carribeans have taken that mantle. the way i see it is that anytime a particular nation has dominated a particular sport, like athletics, there is always a reason. The soviets, the chinese, the americans, now the carribeans. it's all too peculiar if you ask me.

12-03-2008, 12:17 PM	#1 (permalink)
Strange Famous follower of the child's crusade?	The Lightning Bolt, and unproven allegations of cheating I have two questions for people who have expressd views on this. On what basis is it fair or justified to state that Usain Bolt is a cheat when he has never failed a drugs test (and been tested at least 6 times in 2008) If you, in your heart, look at Bolt's performances and decided you believe he is a cheat - is there any point being a fan of track? __ To me, until I see any evidence that he cheated, he's clean. The 100 Metres was one of the most electrifying things Ive ever seen - and no one (including all the drug cheats of the last 20 years) has ever run like that and blown away an Olympic field with that kind of power. The 200 Metres was even more impressive in a way, because we knew what Bolt was capable of and the anticipation was there that he could challenge one of the greatest records in track... I remember involuntarily standing as he came round the bend, not quite believing how far ahead of everyone he was... the commentator babbling at the end "into a 0.9 headwind, I dont believe it... (and then prompted by the editor in his earpiece no doubt) "Im sorry, I have no idea who finished second and third..." I dont deny that there have been a lot of disappointments, especially in sprinting - but if this has left you so jaded that you cant simply let the magnificence of his achievment carry you away - what can you get from watching track? __ To me, Bolt is one of the first athletes who kind of carries this personal myth, and you start to believe he could do things which are impossible (could he win the 400 too, did he really cross the line in the 4x100 M to hug Safa Powell before some of the other teams finish, were the US relay team really so scared of Bolt they threw the baton down rather than face him again in the final...) __________________ "Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate, for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain without being uncovered." The Gospel of Thomas

12-04-2008, 01:08 PM	#2 (permalink)
dlish Currently sour but formerly Dlishs Super Moderator Location: Australia/UAE	SF..its easy..if its too good to be true..its usually not. lets start with the long list of athletics drug cheats..all of them SPRINTERS. these are off the top of my head ben johnson justin gatlin tim montgomery marion jones flo jo carl lewis dwayne chambers linford christie id rather be a pessimist than bury my head in the sand and say how good a particular tahlete is. id rather not bang someones drum if im even slightly unsure of their credibility. sure, usain bolt has performed exceptionally. but are we sure its clean? i say no based on my research into the 100m world record progression. of all the 13 times someone has run under 9.80, 7 of those times have been run this year. and all except one has been run in the last 3 years. theres definately something not right there. we also have the issue with the progression itself. the shorter the distance, the quicker the progression plataeus. in the case of the 100m, the progression gradient has become steeper considerably. in the last 2 years alonethe world record progression has been reduced by 0.82%. that is daylight in terms of 100m sprinting (about 1m). with the short distance, you would expect that the progression should only be a hundred of a second every few years or so. but the steep decline in World Records rings alarm bells. even marathon times are not reduced by those sorts of percentages. i like to take my athletic sprinters with a grain of salt. and while i predicted usain bolt would win both 100m and 200m (check out jazz's beijing athletics thread)- powell is a choker and gay was injured. i could also go into how lax jamaican drug testing is as opposed to other countries, and how there was no testing before this year! but i wont go there now. the drug problem in sprinting is part of the reason why i love middle/long distance runners. legends like hicham el guerrouj, said aouita, nouredine morceli, haile gebrasellaise, sebastian coe, and my favourite kenyan, the legendary john ngugi have never been accused of doping. and all of these guys broke world records and championship records. they probably share 50 world records and world championship records between them, but there are no accusations of drug cheating. do you see why i take sprinting with a grain of salt? with regards to the 400m - bolt himself said that he was too lazy to train for the 400, so it gives you an insight into the type of athlete he is. yes i think time will show that usain is a drug cheat. the numbers themselves prove it. i dont need a test to tell me. i do hope im wrong. i really do. ive lost sleep tossing and turning over this one.. it will be a sad day for athletics when the news breaks. __________________ An injustice anywhere, is an injustice everywhere I always sign my facebook comments with ()()===========(}. Does that make me gay? - Filthy

12-04-2008, 01:52 PM	#3 (permalink)
Strange Famous follower of the child's crusade?	If Usain Bolt was found to have cheated I doubt I'd bother to watch 2012. But you use a phrase such as "the numbers prove he has cheated"... what kind of proof is this? He is too good so he must be a cheat? He was tested at the Olympics and he tested clean. That is the fact here. __________________ "Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate, for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain without being uncovered." The Gospel of Thomas

12-04-2008, 08:17 PM	#6 (permalink)
QuasiMondo Wise-ass Latino Location: Pretoria (Tshwane), RSA	What a sad athletic world we're living in that when an athlete overperforms, his performance is suspected to be illegally enhanced. They can test for masking agents. Case in point is the six NFL players who are fighting suspensions from the league for using a diuretic that masks the presence of steroids in their system. I can only assume that the drug testing program used by the IOC is much more thorough than the one used by the NFL. Unless he tests positive for a performance enhancing drug or is proven through an investigation to have used performance enhancing drugs, it is unfair to label him a cheat. You're going to need more than just circumstantial evidence to convince me otherwise. __________________ Cameron originally envisioned the Terminator as a small, unremarkable man, giving it the ability to blend in more easily. As a result, his first choice for the part was Lance Henriksen. O. J. Simpson was on the shortlist but Cameron did not think that such a nice guy could be a ruthless killer. -From the Collector's Edition DVD of The Terminator

12-14-2008, 01:41 PM	#9 (permalink)
dlish Currently sour but formerly Dlishs Super Moderator Location: Australia/UAE	Will Anyone Ever Run A 3 Minute Mile? - TIME some reading i was doing. interesting to see that although this may not be considered cheating now, but somewhere down the track it probably would. god knows if anyones taking advantage of it now.. do we assume that everyone is clean? highthief - from recent memory id have to disagree with you. in the last say 10-15 years of 100m T&F, the athletes that performed the best were edging towards 30. from the Lewis/Burrell/Mitchell era, to Christie, Greene, Bailey, have all been at their peak once they edged 30. SF - all those names you mentioned are sportmen who either 1) play a team sport or 2) play a sport against a course.( i have no idea who jem mace is though.) the 100m is against other individuals. theres a big difference __________________ An injustice anywhere, is an injustice everywhere I always sign my facebook comments with ()()===========(}. Does that make me gay? - Filthy

12-14-2008, 01:54 PM	#10 (permalink)
Strange Famous follower of the child's crusade?	Jem Mace was the father of modern boxing. I have to say that to me it doesnt seem that strange that Usain got so good so quick, he's had a lot of injuries and he's 22 - this is probably the first season he's been fully fit and had a fully developed body. And the time he ran over the 100 isnt THAT outrageous - I believe Tyson Gay has run close to that (although with an illegal tail wind) __________________ "Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate, for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain without being uncovered." The Gospel of Thomas

08-17-2009, 12:04 AM	#12 (permalink)
dlish Currently sour but formerly Dlishs Super Moderator Location: Australia/UAE	bump.....coug cough cough..CHOKE __________________ An injustice anywhere, is an injustice everywhere I always sign my facebook comments with ()()===========(}. Does that make me gay? - Filthy

08-17-2009, 05:18 AM	#13 (permalink)
The_Jazz Asshole Administrator Location: Chicago	Ah, I'd forgotten all about this thread. Bolt did something amazing yesterday. I didn't get to watch (unfortunately the majority wanted to watch the PGA yesterday), and I haven't seen the video yet, but it's already been described to me as "the most powerful sprint ever filmed". Based on the facts that it's the biggest reduction of the 100M since electronic timing started and that he won by over .3, I'll accept that. What I won't accept is that Bolt is 100% clean. The Jamacians are ahead of the curve with their drug regime. The testing is typically 2 to 3 years behind the drug producers, so assuming that anyone who passes a test is completely clean is just willful ignorance and hopeful thinking. Maybe Bolt is enough of a genetic freak to do this completely unaided, but I have to doubt it. __________________ "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - B. Franklin "There ought to be limits to freedom." - George W. Bush "We have met the enemy and he is us." - Pogo

08-17-2009, 05:42 AM	#14 (permalink)
fresnelly Functionally Appropriate Location: Toronto	Speaking as a Canadian who had his heart crushed by Ben Johnson's failure, I strongly hope for Jamaica's sake that Bolt is legit. It would be devastating to their national pride if he was a cheat. __________________ Building an artificial intelligence that appreciates Mozart is easy. Building an A.I. that appreciates a theme restaurant is the real challenge - Kit Roebuck - Nine Planets Without Intelligent Life

08-17-2009, 06:03 AM	#15 (permalink)
dlish Currently sour but formerly Dlishs Super Moderator Location: Australia/UAE	when drug cheats were breaking records by 0.01secs, its disheartening to believe that someone clean is breaking records by such vast numbers. i remember watching the world championships in tokyo as a young teen, staying till the wee hours of the morning watching carl lewis run a 9.86 in what was the fastest 100m lineup ever thinking that his record would stand for decades. Lewis who ended up being a drug cheat, has had his record annihalated time and time again by this younger generation. i do hope he's clean, but sadly, even proven drug cheats claim they're clean. it's always their doctors/trainers/coach/mothers fault for giving them deer penis herbs for vitality into their breakfast cereal. this can either be the greatest race ever, or the biggest bunch of doped up athletes ever. i'll take the latter. __________________ An injustice anywhere, is an injustice everywhere I always sign my facebook comments with ()()===========(}. Does that make me gay? - Filthy

08-17-2009, 06:05 AM	#16 (permalink)
Leto Junkie Location: The Danforth	Carl Lewis??? on dope? he cheated???? WTF. After he gloated over Ben Johnson. what an ass hat __________________ You said you didn't give a fuck about hockey And I never saw someone say that before You held my hand and we walked home the long way You were loosening my grip on Bobby Orr http://dune.wikia.com/wiki/Leto_Atreides_I

08-17-2009, 09:43 AM	#18 (permalink)
Daniel_ Evil Priest: The Devil Made Me Do It! Location: Southern England	I don't know if Bolt has cheated, but in history I can confirm that many drugs are discovered to be performance enhancing long before a test for them exists, and therefore it is clearly possible that Bolt has found a new form of doping that is as yet undetectable. This is why samples are frozen and retained for years in case new techniques come on board that allow old drugs and doping techniques to be detected. The sheer magnitude of the record breaking margin in this case makes it seem very odd that he should achieve it without cheating. __________________ ╔═════════════════════════════════════════╗ Overhead, the Albatross hangs motionless upon the air, And deep beneath the rolling waves, In labyrinths of Coral Caves, The Echo of a distant time Comes willowing across the sand; And everthing is Green and Submarine ╚═════════════════════════════════════════╝

08-17-2009, 09:45 AM	#19 (permalink)
The_Jazz Asshole Administrator Location: Chicago	I'm sure that you and dlish are talking about the same incident. Unfortunately, it's pretty much accepted that the "inadvertent" ruling by the USOC was pretty much complete and utter bullshit. Carl Lewis's positive test covered up - smh.com.au The USOC has gotten better in recent years, but they spent well over a decade colluding with their top athletes. There are still systemic problems, in my opinion. __________________ "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - B. Franklin "There ought to be limits to freedom." - George W. Bush "We have met the enemy and he is us." - Pogo

08-17-2009, 10:39 AM	#20 (permalink)
dippin Crazy, indeed Location: the ether	Is it possible to cheat and not be caught? Sure. You have billions being spent on discovering new drugs, and only a very small fraction of that on detecting them, so detection lags discovery significantly. Besides, even when they know how to test for the drugs, often the thresholds to be found guilty are so high that it is easy to play around them. So it is possible to dope up and never be caught. But what I think it is fascinating is who the western media decides to paint as likely cheaters. Sports forums, blogs, sports radio and TV have all been speculating if Bolt uses drugs. Meanwhile, despite mountain evidence, Lance Armstrong is still considered clean and most media attacked the French labs, and Ive not seen anyone discussing Phelps...

08-17-2009, 11:25 AM	#21 (permalink)
The_Jazz Asshole Administrator Location: Chicago	I go back and forth on Armstrong. I'm currently thinking "clean", mainly because he just did a mountain bike race in the US that he lost by 2 minutes 2 years ago. He beat the guy who beat him then by something like 20 minutes this year. Two years ago, he basically put down the Cheetos, got off the couch and still placed second. This year he trained. He also pioneered the "live low, train high" doctrine for cycling (distance runners, particularly East Africans, have been doing that very successfully for decades). Phelps? I'm pretty sure he held age group national records as a kid and that he was the youngest swimmer ever on the Olympic team. He didn't exactly explode on the scene like Bolt. He's been a force for a long time. It's guys like him and Gebrselassie that are quite obviously the genetic freaks that some folks think Bolt is. I'm just not one of those. __________________ "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - B. Franklin "There ought to be limits to freedom." - George W. Bush "We have met the enemy and he is us." - Pogo

08-17-2009, 11:42 AM	#22 (permalink)
ratbastid Darth Papa Location: Yonder	I think we should have an all-drug league for pretty much all sports. Imagine super-enhanced dudes on teams sponsored by Merck and Glaxxo-SmithKline dunking on baskets 30 feet off the ground! Running the 100 meters in like 2 seconds! It'd be AWESOME!!

08-17-2009, 12:19 PM	#24 (permalink)
The_Jazz Asshole Administrator Location: Chicago	Bolt won the 2002 Junior WC in the 200M, which is where someone with is body type is more prototypically successful. He's the tallest world record holder in the 100M by 2" (Carl Lewis). There's also quite a bit of rumor floating around the Jamacian team since they set so many records in Beijing. There's a conventional wisdom theory floating around that says that some of the lower echelon (i.e. not the medalists) are going to start testing positive soon since they're less likely to stay on the cutting edge and that the testing will catch up to them. Like I said, I go back and forth on Lance. There's evidence both ways. Again as I said, my pendulumn has swung to "clean" for now. We'll see if it stays there. It rarely does for folks with as many suspicions cast upon him. __________________ "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - B. Franklin "There ought to be limits to freedom." - George W. Bush "We have met the enemy and he is us." - Pogo

08-17-2009, 12:54 PM	#26 (permalink)
The_Jazz Asshole Administrator Location: Chicago	What in the world are you talking about? The "East German swim team" isn't a myth. The East German Women's Swim Teams were quite possibly the dirtiest in history and were in part responsible for the advent of the World Doping Agency. Manfred Ewald - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia I'm not really sure what's meant by the BALCO referrence, since that's just one lab producing PED's, and the East Germans reputable had quite a few and worked with the Soviets. If you're trying to make some argument that this is somehow an American-devised conspiracy theory, then I think you should look at who's posted in this thread. I'm pretty certain I'm the only American track fan here. There are lots of others, but I'm the only American one in this thread. __________________ "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - B. Franklin "There ought to be limits to freedom." - George W. Bush "We have met the enemy and he is us." - Pogo

08-17-2009, 01:20 PM	#27 (permalink)
Strange Famous follower of the child's crusade?	As far as I am concerned believe are still innocent until proven guilty, not the other way round. The guy is tested all the time and has always been clean And did anyone see the race last night? Just cant get my head round what he did... cant get my head round how fast Tyson Gay ran and still wasnt close (I mean, yes Usain didnt ease down - but at 60 metres if Gay had come back at him I feel like Usain would have had another gear) __________________ "Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate, for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain without being uncovered." The Gospel of Thomas

08-17-2009, 02:33 PM	#29 (permalink)
The_Jazz Asshole Administrator Location: Chicago	I still don't get it. Track is basically ignored here, except for 2 weeks every four years. This didn't make the front page of any sports page I saw. Although Marion Jones did, but in a negative way. And if you think that "most" of the track sponsors are in the US, you're a typical American. __________________ "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - B. Franklin "There ought to be limits to freedom." - George W. Bush "We have met the enemy and he is us." - Pogo

08-17-2009, 04:05 PM	#32 (permalink)
allaboutmusic Aurally Fixated	As others have pointed out, while obviously Usain ran the fastest 100m ever recorded, the fact is that the whole final was extremely fast. Tyson Gay's time was within 2 hundredths of Usain's last world record. I'd like to think they are all clean, and the evidence so far says he is... but we may not know for a while. Could there be other technologically related reasons that could be helping the athletes? Possibilities: track technology - in the same way the pool in Beijing contributed to optimal swimming conditions shoe technology - may be giving runners an advantage over years ago training technology - for example, consumers have only been introduced to P90X and similar in the past decade or so. Jamaican trainers may have worked something out that others haven't in preparing their athletes, or warming up etc nutrition technology - better food served in ways that help the athlete in their dietary approach clothing technology - less air resistance, skin resistance and rubbing evolution - human beings are getting taller, etc. On the subject of evolution and genes etc, would genetic manipulation be considered doping? It could certainly be argued to be cheating.

08-18-2009, 10:24 AM	#33 (permalink)
Strange Famous follower of the child's crusade?	And talent... in my opinion Usain is a once in a generation simple freak who obeys different rules to mere mortals. And Gay deserves credit... he ran an absolutely incredible time... its just a shame it was in the same race as Bolt. No one accuses Bekele of cheating either and he's on ever 10,000 he's ever run in... the fact is that the 80's and 90's dida HUGE amout of damage to track... I think the Lightening Bolt is starting to repair that. I dont know how many watched the race live, an how many of the people who did had the same reaction as me - just amazement, and then joy. I sat in my room literally laughing out loud because I couldnt belive what Bolt had done. __________________ "Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate, for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain without being uncovered." The Gospel of Thomas

08-20-2009, 04:34 PM	#34 (permalink)
highthief Junkie Location: Ontario, Canada	19:19 for the 200. Unreal. This guy might, given a couple of years, go under 19 seconds for the 200. Amazing! __________________ Si vis pacem parabellum.

08-20-2009, 11:16 PM	#35 (permalink)
allaboutmusic Aurally Fixated	That 200m was unreal. Every stage of the race was absolutely astonishing.

08-21-2009, 12:43 AM	#36 (permalink)
Strange Famous follower of the child's crusade?	19.19! __________________ "Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate, for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain without being uncovered." The Gospel of Thomas

08-21-2009, 01:53 AM	#37 (permalink)
nomcat Twisted Location: UK	The man is a machine! __________________ There are many powers in the world, for good or for evil. Some are greater than I am. Against some I have not yet been measured. But my time is coming.

08-21-2009, 05:00 AM	#38 (permalink)
The_Jazz Asshole Administrator Location: Chicago	That is the most powerful and well run 200 I've ever seen. Every segment was about as perfect as it could be. I knew the result before I watched the video, but it was obvious that he was going to get it when he exploded out of the turn. Wow. __________________ "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - B. Franklin "There ought to be limits to freedom." - George W. Bush "We have met the enemy and he is us." - Pogo

08-22-2009, 09:25 AM	#39 (permalink)
highthief Junkie Location: Ontario, Canada	So why are the American 4 x 100 relay teams inevitably incompetent? Has anyone dropped the stick, ran out their lanes, or otherwise screwed up as much as team USA? Both the US men and women are out ... again. __________________ Si vis pacem parabellum.

08-22-2009, 12:09 PM	#40 (permalink)
dlish Currently sour but formerly Dlishs Super Moderator Location: Australia/UAE	jazz, apparently he know it was going to be a quick time when he got out of the blocks quickly.he got the quickest reaction time of the lot. i dare say he would have been able to go under 19 if he was pushed all the way. i still think that breaking the hundred by .11 is a bigger feat than breaking the 200 by .11. someone care to tell me why in the last few years we've seen an influx of carribean athletes? the sprints used to be dominated by the americans, but it seems that the carribeans have taken that mantle. the way i see it is that anytime a particular nation has dominated a particular sport, like athletics, there is always a reason. The soviets, the chinese, the americans, now the carribeans. it's all too peculiar if you ask me. __________________ An injustice anywhere, is an injustice everywhere I always sign my facebook comments with ()()===========(}. Does that make me gay? - Filthy