Tully Mars

Lived in San Diego for a few years so I'm partial to the "Bolts," but I'm going to go out on a limb and pick the Pats. I'm guessing by about 3 TD's.

Anyone else care to guess the spread?

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Willravel

Chargers. If there's justice in the world, it'll be the Chargers.

Shauk

what he said.

I was born in San Diego so I'm rooting for them. Besides, they got a better looking uniform/logo anyway, and if I wanna see the NFL mass producing sportswear, I want it to be something that isn't ugly.

thespian86

Brady just got picked off by Jammer and I'm doing a dance.

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Tully Mars

If there's justice in the world? What make you think there's justice in this, or any other, world?

Must admit I'd really like to see the Chargers do it, but until there up by 28 with less then 3mins left I'm not believing anything. I simply watched too many times this season where the Pats were down big one minute, made a couple big plays and suddenly they're back in the black.

And they just scored while I typed.

I was wrong about the spread... wish I was wrong about the outcome.

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jorgelito

Congratulations to the big underdogs!!! Patriots are 18-0 and making history. I love it. We are defying all odds and haters and showing the world what football is all about. What a truly great organization that epitomizes the cerebral and teamwork aspects of the game of football. It is refreshing in an age of primadonnas and whiners all about "memememememememe".
I love the Patriots team mentality, discipline. They showed class all week not underestimating the Chargers or getting caught up in trash talk. Nothing but praise and respect for their opponents. Good to see Junior Seau get closer to his goal too.

That's retarded. Why do the Chargers need justice? What does justice have to do with football? If there's any REAL justice, then the world will issue a sincere heartfelt apology to the Patriots and fans.

Ilow

Justice? There is justice, the dumbass Chargers front office fired a coach who had gone 14-2 and secured home field advantage, and then had to go on the road for an AFC championship game. Oh, you were making a crafty remark about the Pats taping opposing coaches signals in the first quarter of the first game. original.
I love Patriots haters, so irrational. I wish they could just say "I like to have some variety, it's not as fun when the same team is in the AFC championship game five out of the last seven years..."

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Tully Mars

Issue an apology? For what? Everything I saw and read had them favored big time. Not sure I read where anyone here said anything really negative about the Pats. Simply seemed many were hoping the Bolts could pull off an upset. So now you have to apologize to the winner if you rooted for the loser? That seems somewhat retarded to me.

You're right about them being a respectful club. Never hear where they trash talk or complain about BS calls. Crap like that is why I was so happy to see the Cowboy lose last week. In fact, crap like that always makes me happy to watch the Cowboys lose.

Honestly I feel sorry for whatever team wins now in GB. Looks to me like all they're going to win is a trip to Az to have their asses handed to them in front of a world wide audience.

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Willravel

Um, okay here you go:

Dear Patriots, I'm sorry you're cheaters. Videotaping defensive signals from the NYJet's (even the Raiders could beat the Jets without cheating, btw) coaches violated league rules (according to Roger Goodell), and this is hardly the first time there has been evidence you've cheated. If you were as great as your fans purported, you wouldn't need to cheat to win, so I apologize on your behalf to all of the fans of the teams that don't cheat which you cheated.


Enjoy your hollow victories.

Fotzlid

lol

i love whiny anti-Pats internet postings.

repeat after me... "its only a game".

should be a good super bowl this year. the Giants played a great game against the Pats in week 16. looking forward to the rematch.

Willravel

Should you be saying this to the cheaters or the people complaining about the cheating? You know they get paid, right?

Fotzlid

doesnt matter if they're paid or not. its still only a game.

Willravel

What I mean is it's a game that people pay for. Would you really want to pay money to watch your team lose to a team that's cheating?

Fotzlid

personally, i've been to exactly 3 professional sporting events in the past 2 decades. the prices are just way too high to sit and watch a game. if other people want to spend their money on sports, then so be it. if they all went away tomorrow it'd bum me out but i'd find better ways to spend my time.

in the Pats case, the fans are still outraged so that is a good thing. the sports fans don't have to worry about other teams trying anything underhanded for awhile. if they hadn't gotten busted, who knows what other corners might have been shaved by them or other teams.
a black eye for the Pats, yes. overall a good thing for the NFL.

and just for the record, which team lost because of cheating?

Willravel

The Jets lost to the Pats in the game where the Pats were caught cheating, though the Pats likely would have won regardless. The real question is: when did they cheat and not get caught? 2002 when they beat the Raiders, perhaps?

Fotzlid

you're an intelligent guy. do you really want to get into supposition and conspiracy theories over a sporting event?

is it really worth it?

Willravel

I'm a Sharks fan. If I found out that I paid to go to a game where the Sharks lost to the Stars because the Stars cheated, I'd want the Stars punished or my money back. Is that really an unreasonable expectation? Sports sure are just games, but it's also a billion dollar industry and has millions of fans who take it seriously. Are their concerns negated by the fact that it's just a game?

Besides, while I may be an intelligent guy (thanks, btw), I also tend to fight for things on principle. This is about principle.

Shauk

So yeah, giants vs pats.

both a buncha pansy east coaster teams. Poor San Diego and Seattle didn't make it far enough to represent my regions :\

QQ i say. At least I can look forward to comercials and nipple slips.

Fotzlid

no, its not an unreasonable expectation. and no, its not about principle, its about beating a dead horse.

anyway....


Seattle aint got shit and San Diego is a bunch of poseurs.

j/k :P

i was rooting for Seattle. i like both the Seahawks and the Mariners.
want to borrow my Red Sox "There's Always Next Year" handbook? wont be needing it around here anymore.

Jadedfox

I really find it mind blowing that on a night that Tom Brady is absolutely shit (3 picks, one in the red zone) the Pats still win! They are just a damn good football team.

--jaded

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Tully Mars

Yeah, what he said.

I've been completely out of the loop for sometime. I completely missed the the whole "Pats cheated" story. NFL keep that pretty damn quite or what?

So here's to funny commercials and a Giants win. Though I thinks the odds for funny ads are far better then for the NYGs.

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jorgelito

Quoted for truth brother. Unbelievable how many people are still hating and whining about the Pat's. It's a damn shame. The Giant's are legit and I am certain the Pat's are aware of this and will prepare accordingly. I think it will be close and should be a great game.

Redlemon

The halftime entertainment is Tom Petty and the Heartbreakers. *shudders* I do NOT want to see his nipples.

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Rekna

Apparently Brady has been seen wearing a walking cast.... that could be a big deal in 2 weeks.

Oh yeah and if the pats do win their season should get an * just like Barry Bonds home run ball. They cheated and should have been banned from the playoffs.

Tully Mars

He is not a good looking guy. My wife and I were in the second row one year and she commented that he had a face for radio. But he is one hell of a musical story teller.

I agree. Had much more respect for the Pats prior to reading several articles about their cheatin' ways.

Don't think it was in the NFL's interest to "do the right thing." Much more profit to be had by sweeping this under the nearest rug.

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filtherton

Coaches have been covering their mouths whilst making calls for a long time- this might indicate that most coaches assumed they were in some way being videotaped. I think that it is safe to assume that most clubs cheat. The colts pipe in extra noise at their home games, where are the calls for asterisks for peyton manning's stats?

As much as i try not to care, the patriots seem like they're actually a pretty good team, despite the fact that they cheated in some possibly completely inconsequential way to beat one of the worst teams in the league. It seems a little silly to me to claim that somehow we should ignore the things that they've accomplished because we know for a fact that they cheated in a game that even their most vehement critics claim they would have won, especially in light of the likelihood that they weren't the only team who was cheating.

Tully Mars

Doesn't seem like it was one game. More like it was an on going behavior over several seasons. How many games? How many seasons? Not sure we'll ever know since the league destroyed the tapes. Still it was in clear violation of league rules.


Are there other teams that have been caught and fined by the NFL that I don't know about?

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filtherton

Just because the pats are the only ones who have been caught and fined doesn't mean that they're the only ones who cheated. Like i said, coaches have been covering their mouths to call plays for as long as i've been watching football. This would seem to imply that at least among coaches such underhandedness was assumed.

Maybe the jets' coaching staff were some of the few who didn't cover their mouths when they called plays. Maybe that's why they can't win- they're easy to cheat on.

Ilow

Probably not. He had serious ankle injury in his first postseason, and even had to sit at the end of the Pittsburgh game, when Bledsoe came in for the winning TD, and then returned two weeks later in the Super Bowl, and we all know how that turned out.

Oh, and calls for asterisks etc are utterly ludicrous. They paid their penance, to the tune of money and a major drat pick, and that's the end of it. The freakin Jets themselves were caught taping without permission and asked to leave by the Patriots. As far as the NFL sweeping it under the rug, that is also ridiculous. This administration has done nothing except impose maximum penalties and try to send a message to players and teams around the league, which is what they did in this case. Bill B. may have been utterly unapologetic, which did not win him many fans, but his contention that it was a technicality was sort of correct, when you consider that it is not illegal to tape from other areas in the stadium, only the sideline. Really, give asterisks to everyone, pretty much everyone knows how many steroids the 70's Steelers did, let's take their championships away, lets take away Manning's championship because of pumped in crowd noise, or Pittsburgh's because they intentionally didn't maintain their shitty field, or any team who has had anyone ever test positive for PEDs. Where does it end? It ends when people quit their bitching.

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Rekna

People rarely get caught cheating the first time they cheat. It is likely they were doing this for a long time and were finally caught. So the pats have had prior winning seasons that could very well be partially due to cheating. If they had been cheating in the past they would have made way more money then they were fined because of the cheating. To further help them by having prior winning seasons they were more likely to keep their good players while attaining others through free agency.

Can you imagine what would happen if the punishment for robbing a bank was $1000 and you got to keep any money you stole? If they cheated in prior seasons the fine and the draft pick were not nearly enough. If others are doing it I would support harsh punishments against them also. Also their coach should have a 5 year ban at least!

Ilow

Christ, if you're going to single out a team to bash them, at least get your facts straight so your argument holds together. The Patriots, as do all other teams in the NFL, have a strict salary cap restriction. It is a "hard cap." They cannot outspend every other team to land free agents, or keep their valuable players no matter how much revenue they accrue. The money they make goes to the Kraft family and other teams in the league via a complex revenue sharing agreement which is designed to maintain parity and benefit the small market teams. The late Lamar Hunt was a huge proponent of this. Yup, Kansas City, Buffalo, Carolina, your welcome. The Patriots broke the rules and were severely punished. There was very little chance that their taping actually helped them anyway, as nearly every team changes their signals every quarter or two, it was a matter of the Patriots leaving no stone unturned. I don't think it matters, for those who are haters, they will never be convinced and persuaded to not be.

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Rekna

Ok you are a free agent you have a choice between being on a winning team and getting 5 million a year from the team with an additional 2 million in endorsements. Or you can go to a losing team which pays 6 million a year. Which do you chose?

You have to remember that endorsements is a major income for many players. Being able to sell jerseys, balls, advertising etc.

Also there is a draw to being on a winning team in the first place.

Here is a hypothetical. When the Vikings had Moss they should have won the NFC championship (lost due to a missed chipshot). They were heavily favored to win the superbowl. If they had won the championship and the the superbowl would they have lost many of their key players? How often do you see key players leave the superbowl team (not including retiring).

A friend of mine was the starting center for the Steelers when they won the superbowl a few years ago. He stayed another year after winning. They had a losing season and he retired. This is what happens to losing teams.

Also do all teams pay at the salary cap?

From Wikipidedia

Willravel

I'm confused about accusations that other teams cheat considering that there's no evidence to support this. Supposition and guessing is not a good substitute for evidence. The Patriots were cheating, as was supported by evidence. Until evidence of other teams cheating is presented, it's illogical to assume that they cheat. For the time being, it's only logical to be under the impression that the Patriots cheat.

filtherton

Well, to extend that, it's only "logical" to assume that they cheated once, against a team everyone assumes that they would have beaten anyway.

All this talk of asterisks and widespread cheating necessarily relies on unproven accusations- pretending that what the patriots got caught and fined for was a big deal is kind of similar to joe buck's reaction to randy moss pretend-mooning the stands at lambeau. So it's a bit odd to see claims about league wide cheating get dismissed by asterisk proponents based on the idea that there isn't any evidence- there isn't any evidence that the pats have cheated in any way that wasn't completely inconsequential.

Willravel

So cheating is okay if you deem it inconsequential? Or it's okay if the team doing the cheating probably would have won with or without cheating? That hardly seems reasonable.

Cheating is cheating. No asterisks about it.

Here's something else to consider. In the September game between the Pats and Jets, the score was 38 to 14. That's a hell of a victory. Then the Pats get found out and the next time they play? 10 to 20. 1/2 is quite a bit closer than 1/2.7143. Isn't it possible that the cheating did, in fact, make a difference? Why would they even do it otherwise?

filtherton

No cheating is not okay, but when it doesn't have any bearing on the rest of anything, as most people would readily be willing to admit, then it doesn't matter.

I think there is a general "get away with what you can and pay the fine if you have to" philosophy that permeates much of the nfl. That's why it is expected that a defensive back will take a pass interference penalty rather than give up a touchdown. Knocking the receiver over so he can't catch the ball is cheating, but the penalty is preferable to getting scored on- that's how the game is played. Since such philosophies no doubt come from the coaches, it doesn't seem illogical to me to assume that the coaches aren't above it themselves.


Yes, it is possible that the jets could have beaten the patriots that first game if the patriots hadn't cheated, but it probably isn't very likely.

Willravel

I'm not suggesting that the Jets would have won, but the split may have differed. That was the difference I was referring to. Imagine losing by 1tb to the Patriots. Not bad.

Ilow

As I mentioned, there are too many individuals who have been caught cheating with Performance enhancing drugs to count, probably players on every single team at one time or another, but if you would like to discuss teams intentionally cheating, you need not look any further than the Denver Broncos, who for YEARS cheated in every single game, by virtue of intentionally violating the salary cap. They won Super Bowls and ere fined a ton of money, by a person who is considered by most to be a more lenient commissioner. Imagin if this happened on Goodell's watch?

Broncos Penalized Again for Salary Cap Violations
By Mark Maske
Washington Post Staff Writer
Friday, September 17, 2004; 5:37 PM
The penalties imposed Thursday on the Denver Broncos for violations of the league's rules regarding the disclosure of deferred compensation to players and the salary cap were the second sanctions against the team for similar infractions in less than three years.
In December 2001, the Broncos were fined $968,000 and lost a third-round pick in the 2002 draft for violations reportedly relating to $29 million in deferred payments to quarterback John Elway and running back Terrell Davis.
On Thursday, the league announced that the Broncos have been fined $950,000 and will lose a third-round selection in next year's draft for circumventing the salary cap between 1996 and '98. The penalties were set in an agreement between the league, the Players Association and the Broncos and resolve a case against the team brought before the sport's special master by the NFL's Management Council in January 2003, the league announced.
The penalties could be viewed as further vindication for Oakland Raiders owner Al Davis, who has said in the past that Broncos owner Pat Bowlen should be suspended for salary cap violations. Davis has contended that the Broncos' circumvention of the salary cap helped them win the Super Bowl in the 1997 and '98 seasons.
Bowlen said in a written statement released Thursday by the Broncos that the club gained no competitive advantage from these cap violations.
"The non-disclosures brought to my attention by the National Football League took place in the mid-1990s," Bowlen said. "We cooperated with the NFL throughout their examination of the situation. While I regret that the circumstances took place, it is important to note that there was no competitive advantage gained by our organization, nor was there any involvement or responsibility by anyone who is currently with the Broncos in any capacity.
"We accept our penalty, will pay our fine as directed and from this point on put the issue behind us. Our entire organization is working toward a great season in 2004."
Harold Henderson, the chairman of the Management Council and the NFL's executive vice president of labor relations, confirmed in a written statement released by the league that "the individuals responsible for the violations are no longer with the team" and that the Broncos "have been cooperative throughout the investigation." Henderson did not directly address the issue of whether the club gained a competitive advantage but said the Broncos circumvented the cap to help pay for costs related to the construction of Invesco Field at Mile High.
"The investigation resulted in the discovery of undisclosed agreements between the club and Broncos players during the same period [1996-1998] pursuant to which various players agreed to defer certain compensation in exchange for a commitment to pay interest on the deferred amounts," Henderson said in the statement. "These agreements were plainly designed to help the club cope with seasonal cash flow problems exacerbated by the Broncos' need to fund front-end expenditures associated with development of the new stadium in Denver."
The Broncos reportedly were responsible for about $100 million of the approximately $401 million cost of Invesco Field at Mile High, which opened in 2001 and replaced Mile High Stadium as the team's home.
This set of violations, the league said, was related both to agreements between the team and "several" unidentified players to defer salary payments with interest and to a 1997 agreement between the club and a former player to not waive the player prior to a certain date. "Both types of agreements raised salary cap accounting issues," the league said.
Henderson said of the agreement not to waive the player before a certain date: "That commitment had the effect of converting the player's roster bonus into a guarantee, which affected the timing of the salary cap treatment of a portion of the bonus."
Henderson said the league considered the settlement terms "satisfactory to resolve the dispute."
An unidentified agent for a former Broncos player will donate $100,000 to charity without admitting wrongdoing in the case, according to the league.

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Tully Mars

Hey everybody, another team cheated years ago, therefore precedence has been set and cheating is no big deal.

Now back to your regularly scheduled Super Bowl.

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Fotzlid

i am outraged. how could the league let them get away with just a financial slap on the wrist and the loss of a draft pick.there should be an asterisk next to those games in the books. as a matter of fact, they should have to give the rings back. who knows how many other games they won by breaking the rules like that.
damn cheaters.