Why is Marion Jones going to jail? - Page 2 - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

The_Jazz · 01-15-2008, 06:51 AM

host, Scooter Libby and Marion Jones have a huge difference here - Jones was involved in identity theft. Most people convicted of identity theft serve time. In federal court that can draw a 2 year mandatory sentence, and it can even be prosecuted under the Patriot Act.

You're so caught up in drawing lines between Libby and Jones that you forgot the major difference. The check fraud case came to light when Tim Montgomery, her boyfriend at the time and the father of one of her children (not to mention the world record holder in the 100M), tried to pass a bad check. It turns out that Jones as well as the coach both of them shared was involved.

That local charge dovetailed with the BALCO investigation that had been underway for a few months at the time, but Jones was already under fire since her then-husband CJ Hunter (who is truly one of the world's biggest assholes in person, IMO) tested postive before the Sydney games.

This is an identity theft case with perjury aspects. The judge is well within his bounds to reject a plea deal if he feels that it does not fit the crime.

I don't understand how this has turned political, host. Because the judge was appointed by Bush? Because Libby was convicted of a similar crime? Give me a break. You're taking a small bit of the whole and trying to turn it into the main event.

Marion Jones suffered no injustice. She committed multiple crimes. Even worse, solely in my mind for the record, she cheated. She was one of the greatest natural talents ever in the sport, and she turned around and betrayed us all. I'm glad she's being punished. It really sucks for her kids, but that's life.

Strange Famous · 01-15-2008, 12:00 PM

Jailing women is not anti-sexism!

Feminism is about equality, not exactly equal treatment.

Men and women ARE different... physically and emotionally.

There are very few genuine female criminals. Nealy all "crime" committed by women is non-violent, and nearly all of that is driven by desperation, normally when held in the sway of the male controlled illegal drug industry.

There is a very small level of crime against children carried out by women, but very level compared to male crime. One prison would be adequate to hold all genuine female criminals in the US. Locking up women, again I will say - as if they were some kind of common thugs or swindlers - is an act of indecency.

Marion Jones took performance enhancing drugs, and lied about to a court that she should not have had to face, given that she was not an active athlete at the time. The whole system that put her were she is is cruel, malicious, chippy and vengeful and cheap.

On what grounds does the US State summon her to testify against oath???

What crime has she committed to force her to face cross-examination???

She is simply a ritual sacrifice, so that a sport which is full of drug use, right to its core, can cast aside a set number of people each year to carry on the pretence that it is clean. It is a pagan ceremony almost.

Ustwo · 01-15-2008, 12:10 PM

So if it were a male doing the same thing you wouldn't have a problem with it?

Strange Famous · 01-15-2008, 02:29 PM

It is less problematic to jail a man.

I still think it would be unfair... I dont want to see Barry Bonds go to jail for cheating either.

Charlatan · 01-15-2008, 02:32 PM

Marion Jones is not going to jail for cheating.

The_Jazz · 01-15-2008, 02:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Charlatan

Marion Jones is not going to jail for cheating.

Explicitely, you're right. However, the perjury charges are a part of the BALCO investigation, which is a direct result of her cheating. If she hadn't cheated using the BALCO products, she wouldn't be going to jail for perjury. She still would for check fraud, but she is, at least in part, going to jail for cheating.

That may be semantics, but it makes sense to me. More sense than Strange Famous saying that mothers shouldn't have to serve time anyway.

QuasiMondo · 01-15-2008, 03:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Strange Famous

Jailing women is not anti-sexism!

Feminism is about equality, not exactly equal treatment.

Men and women ARE different... physically and emotionally.

There are very few genuine female criminals. Nealy all "crime" committed by women is non-violent, and nearly all of that is driven by desperation, normally when held in the sway of the male controlled illegal drug industry.

There is a very small level of crime against children carried out by women, but very level compared to male crime. One prison would be adequate to hold all genuine female criminals in the US. Locking up women, again I will say - as if they were some kind of common thugs or swindlers - is an act of indecency.

Marion Jones took performance enhancing drugs, and lied about to a court that she should not have had to face, given that she was not an active athlete at the time. The whole system that put her were she is is cruel, malicious, chippy and vengeful and cheap.

On what grounds does the US State summon her to testify against oath???

What crime has she committed to force her to face cross-examination???

She is simply a ritual sacrifice, so that a sport which is full of drug use, right to its core, can cast aside a set number of people each year to carry on the pretence that it is clean. It is a pagan ceremony almost.

Perhaps a copy of the criminal indictment against Jones will clear up any confusion you have.

http://assets.espn.go.com/media/pdf/...jones_info.pdf

Have we forgotten that anabolic steroids are currently listed as Schedule III controlled substances under the Controlled Substances Act, which makes the possession of such substances without a prescription a federal crime punishable by up to seven years in prison?

Jinn · 01-15-2008, 03:09 PM

Quote:

There are very few genuine female criminals. Nealy all "crime" committed by women is non-violent, and nearly all of that is driven by desperation, normally when held in the sway of the male controlled illegal drug industry.

I can't even touch this, because you've worded it so carefully that you can back out claiming you were right no matter what facts arise to dispute your claim. I envy your use of "very few", "genuine", "non-violent", "nearly all" and "driven by desperation". It's very careful word smithing to disguise an otherwise unprovable tautology. After all, you can say male rapists are 'nearly all' driven by desperation; they were SO DESPERATE for sex!

Your comments are so trivial I can't help but believing that this thread, like the Hillary Clinton thread, are poisoned by your naive belief about the sanctity of women. It's no surprise you can't have a female President, and it's no surprise that you can't believe a 'poor lil Womiins' is being so mistreated by the evil evil government.

I'd have no problem if you just admitted you were an out-and-out sexist and defended from there, but instead you're trying to hide in a guise of 'equality but not equal treatment'!

This one in particular makes me laugh:

Quote:

One prison would be adequate to hold all genuine female criminals in the US.

I wish there was a better word than naive. Primitive, perhaps?

silent_jay · 01-15-2008, 05:35 PM

I learned in the 'boxing vs mma' thread, there is no use responding to SF as he'll just continue on his merry way with his thinking, no matter how many facts are presented or how much proof is presented to him.

That said I still enjoy reading your posts SF, you're good shit.

highthief · 01-15-2008, 06:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The_Jazz

The amazing confession from Carl Lewis won't be that he was doping - he was, everyone knew it, and he was smart enought to use state-of-the-art drugs that didn't have tests at the time - but that he's gay. THAT will shock the world and is just as true as the drug issue.

Doesn't everyone know Lewis is as queer as a 3 dollar bill?

I still remember the great decathlete Daley Thompson, at the closing ceremonies of the Olympics after he had won gold in his event and Lewis had won several track and field golds, walking around the track with a t-shirt saying "Second greatest gay athlete in the world!"

Priceless ...

Leto · 01-16-2008, 05:40 AM

no... I didn't know. Shows how tuned in I am.

The_Jazz · 01-16-2008, 05:59 AM

highthief, I think you forget that for 99% of Americans track and field only competes every 4 years. Major newspapers rarely carry any results from any European meets, and even then usually only the top 1 or 2 places.

Carl Lewis was that guy that you saw A LOT every 4 years who then fell off the face of the planet.

The best that Alan Webb can ever hope for is the same.

Shauk · 01-16-2008, 06:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JinnKai

I can't even touch this, because you've worded it so carefully that you can back out claiming you were right no matter what facts arise to dispute your claim. I envy your use of "very few", "genuine", "non-violent", "nearly all" and "driven by desperation". It's very careful word smithing to disguise an otherwise unprovable tautology. After all, you can say male rapists are 'nearly all' driven by desperation; they were SO DESPERATE for sex!

Your comments are so trivial I can't help but believing that this thread, like the Hillary Clinton thread, are poisoned by your naive belief about the sanctity of women. It's no surprise you can't have a female President, and it's no surprise that you can't believe a 'poor lil Womiins' is being so mistreated by the evil evil government.

I'd have no problem if you just admitted you were an out-and-out sexist and defended from there, but instead you're trying to hide in a guise of 'equality but not equal treatment'!

This one in particular makes me laugh:

I wish there was a better word than naive. Primitive, perhaps?

I think what SF said is just fine. What he wrote perfectly demonstrates the belief that he believes in the statistics that would show that women are the "exception to the rule"

that being said, equality rights are equality rights. If you have the capacity to pick up a knife and stab someone, for example, just like a man could, you should be able to expect the same result as a man would. And that means jail time.

on a more personal note, it also means, stop bitching at me to put the toilet seat down, I did my part by raising it. (I'm not a sexist, i'm just tired of stupid ass complaints)

Strange Famous · 01-16-2008, 10:37 AM

I would welcome a woman president.

I just dont think Hillary Clinton is electable as a person, not as a woman. It is a shame - Jinnkai - that you categorise as a woman first and a politician second. I think this is an injustice.

But to get back on track... Marion Jones is a threat to nobody, her so-called crimes have harmed nobody (she certainly wasnt the only athlete juicing - a huge minority of them are)... as I said before, I believe her punishment is a symbolic and pagan action. She is being thrown on the fire to maintain the image that US track is basically clean.

If she must be punished for the alleged crime of perjury, it would be far more appropriate to issue a community service order...she should speak to young athletes and tell them how drugs caught up with her and didnt help in the end, so that they can learn from her example.... it is savagery to place a vulnerable young women in jail when she has not committed a violent crime. (the cheque fraud is completelt understood to be her partners activity, she was not criminally involved in it).

It is a pretty strange thing to hear someone make the accusation that seeking to defend a woman from this kind of violence is some kind of sexism. It is nothing to do with being patronising or paternalistic, it is to do with having a basic sense of right and wrong.

If Marion Jones stabbed someone, we'd be having a different argument - but she has not. She took steroids, which were pushed on her against her will by the US Athletics industry and the constant pressure applied on here, and lied about in an courtroom who's legality I have already challenged.

The_Jazz · 01-16-2008, 11:37 AM

Strange Famous - how about if she stole someone's identity?

Because she did. She's going to jail, in part, because of a check fraud scheme involving her, her coach and Tim Montgomery.

QuasiMondo · 01-16-2008, 03:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Strange Famous

I would welcome a woman president.

I just dont think Hillary Clinton is electable as a person, not as a woman. It is a shame - Jinnkai - that you categorise as a woman first and a politician second. I think this is an injustice.

But to get back on track... Marion Jones is a threat to nobody, her so-called crimes have harmed nobody (she certainly wasnt the only athlete juicing - a huge minority of them are)... as I said before, I believe her punishment is a symbolic and pagan action. She is being thrown on the fire to maintain the image that US track is basically clean.

If she must be punished for the alleged crime of perjury, it would be far more appropriate to issue a community service order...she should speak to young athletes and tell them how drugs caught up with her and didnt help in the end, so that they can learn from her example.... it is savagery to place a vulnerable young women in jail when she has not committed a violent crime. (the cheque fraud is completelt understood to be her partners activity, she was not criminally involved in it).

It is a pretty strange thing to hear someone make the accusation that seeking to defend a woman from this kind of violence is some kind of sexism. It is nothing to do with being patronising or paternalistic, it is to do with having a basic sense of right and wrong.

If Marion Jones stabbed someone, we'd be having a different argument - but she has not. She took steroids, which were pushed on her against her will by the US Athletics industry and the constant pressure applied on here, and lied about in an courtroom who's legality I have already challenged.

She committed a crime. Whether the crime she committed is violent or not is inconsequential. I wish you would stop trying use that as a reason she shouldn't get jail time. This line of reasoning would lead me to think that you would protest jail sentences for all kinds of non violent crimes, including the white-collar fraud committed by head honchos who ran Enron and WorldCom.

She sure didn't seem very vulnerable when she defiantly boasted that she has never taken steroids and screamed from the mountaintop to look at the B sample when she did fail a drug test.

She is not a scapegoat, nor is she some kind of sacrificial lamb. Even if you could make a case that the government was trying to make an example out of her, it's more credible for us to believe they went after her because she's famous and well known. But that's not the reason the government went after her.

To say she was 'pushed' into using steroids is nothing but a poor excuse. It's no more justified than saying Barry Bonds was 'pushed' into using steroids because he was pressured into doing it after watching McGuire and Sosa battle for the single-season home run record. There's something to be said about taking responsibility for one's actions.

dlish · 01-18-2008, 11:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The_Jazz

highthief, I think you forget that for 99% of Americans track and field only competes every 4 years. Major newspapers rarely carry any results from any European meets, and even then usually only the top 1 or 2 places.

Carl Lewis was that guy that you saw A LOT every 4 years who then fell off the face of the planet.

jazz..

are u saying that he did this in order to get away from the drug testers?

as a kid carl lewis was my idol. he really was. but when i found out he was a drug cheat i lost any hope in the guy. its devastating.

just a question though..

1988 100m olympic final

ben johnson 1st
carl lewis - 2nd
linford christie - 3rd

who was fourth? dennis mitchell?

if that was the finish, wouldnt that make it the top 4 finishers being busted for drugs at some point in their careers?

anyone know the times and placing of the finalists in the 1988 olympic 100m?

The_Jazz · 01-18-2008, 11:27 AM

dlish - my point was more about American in general than Carl Lewis in particular. Carl definitely wanted more publicity, but couldn't overcome the inertia of the low public opinions of his sport. Jenny Finch for USA Softball is in the same boat.

I am almost positive that Mitchell/The Mean Machine was 4th. I'd have to look it up, but that sounds right.

highthief · 01-18-2008, 12:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dlish

anyone know the times and placing of the finalists in the 1988 olympic 100m?

I believe Desai Williams, who was also in the final and admitted to juicing, later said he knew that 7 of the 8 were on the juice, and I think the record bears this out. Johnson, Williams. Christie, Mitchell, Lewis - maybe Calvin Smith wasn't?

Strange Famous · 01-18-2008, 12:33 PM

And is Linford in jail?

Is Carl Lewis in jail?

That's kind of the point.

How many cases do you know where the prosecutor doesnt seek a jail sentence, but the judge gives the maximum sentence anyway?

highthief · 01-18-2008, 02:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Strange Famous

And is Linford in jail?

Is Carl Lewis in jail?

That's kind of the point.

How many cases do you know where the prosecutor doesnt seek a jail sentence, but the judge gives the maximum sentence anyway?

What part of "she went to jail for cheque fraud and perjury" is not getting through to you?

That's "kind of the point".

The_Jazz · 01-18-2008, 03:29 PM

Thank you, highthief. Perfect.

Strange Famous · 01-18-2008, 04:13 PM

I disagree completely.

The Prosecution did not seek jail time... and she has not been found guilty of fraud, and has not been charged with fraud. She lied to protect her partner, and then in court retracted this and told the truth.

In no court in any civilised nation in the world would this attract a 6 month prison sentence.

Because I think this does need to be stressed - people are throwing around accusations of fraud and identity theft.

Marion Jones has not been found guilty of fraud. She has not been sentenced for fraud. This is a simple case of a women lying to try and protect her partner... it is just unthinkable, especially when the lie is retracted - that this could be an offence that carries jail time. It is beyond belief. I mean, really... look at what has actually happened here and justify it is it is possible - rather than slinging around accusations that she has been sent to jail for cheque fraud, which is untrue.

She is going to jail because she is Marion Jones.

Simple as that.

If Mary Smith has a boyfriend involved in cheque fraud and lies about it to try and protect him, then tells the truth... she isnt going to jail. There is not even a question of her going to jail.

She is suffering for the corrupt and blighted sport that she represents.

We see examples of Olympic races almost full of drug cheats quoted here... in my opinion Marion Jones hardly tarnishes the sport, by using performance enhancing drugs she is a pretty accurate reflection of many champions,

This is what kills athletics for me.

I always really like watching Tirunesh Dibaba - but it is just at the point that any athlete that breaks out and does something great, that smashes a PB in a championship... you kind of always have the doubt in the back of your mind if they did it cleanly.

QuasiMondo · 01-18-2008, 08:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Strange Famous

And is Linford in jail?

Is Carl Lewis in jail?

That's kind of the point.

How many cases do you know where the prosecutor doesnt seek a jail sentence, but the judge gives the maximum sentence anyway?

Was Linford and Lewis being investigated by federal agents for any possible connection to illegal steroid distribution by BALCO? Did they knowingly make false statements that impeded the investigation into BALCO and illegal steroid distribution?

In a related case, former NFL defensive lineman Dana Stubblefield entered a guilty plea in a San Francisco court to charges that he made false statements to federal agents investigating his connections to BALCO and whether he knowingly used the performance enhancing drug known as 'the clear'. I'm sure he'll be getting six months prison time as well.

Quote:

Marion Jones has not been found guilty of fraud. She has not been sentenced for fraud. This is a simple case of a women lying to try and protect her partner... it is just unthinkable, especially when the lie is retracted - that this could be an offence that carries jail time. It is beyond belief. I mean, really... look at what has actually happened here and justify it is it is possible - rather than slinging around accusations that she has been sent to jail for cheque fraud, which is untrue

Making false statements to federal investigators will result in being charged with obstruction of justice. Lying while under oath will result in perjury. You do not have the right to make false statements to investigators, grand juries, or other law enforcement entities, whether you're protecting somebody or yourself (and if you have to protect yourself, that's what the Fifth Amendment of the U.S. Constitution is there for). You do not even have the right to remain silent unless the stuff you says is self-incriminatory. Greg Anderson's silence in protecting Barry Bonds is why he spent a year and a half in jail.

Quote:

If Mary Smith has a boyfriend involved in cheque fraud and lies about it to try and protect him, then tells the truth... she isnt going to jail. There is not even a question of her going to jail.

What good is it to tell the truth after you've already been caught in a lie?

Quote:

We see examples of Olympic races almost full of drug cheats quoted here... in my opinion Marion Jones hardly tarnishes the sport, by using performance enhancing drugs she is a pretty accurate reflection of many champions,

These 'drug cheats' were not connected with BALCO. These 'drug cheats' did not make false statements to investigators denying that they ever used 'the clear,' knowing that it was an illegal performance enhancing drug.

This is about one thing and one thing only, BALCO. It's n ot some kind of vast misogynist conspiracy, it's not some racist attempt to tear down a black woman, it is the end result of lying to the wrong people, namely federal agents.

This is the wrong case to stake your claim on.

Tophat665 · 01-19-2008, 08:18 AM

I think that the one point SF actually has here is that the prosecutors were not seeking jail time for any of this, and that it was imposed by the judge. SF could be right that there were racist or misogynistic motives in that part. There were also, likely, anti-athlete motives, anti-impunity motives, and anti-smug-fuck motives.

I honestly don't think that they can be picked out, and accusing the judge of one or any of them is so much whistling in the dark if one doesn't actually read his opinion (which I am not interested in this enough to do even if it were handed me.)

highthief · 01-19-2008, 12:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tophat665

I think that the one point SF actually has here is that the prosecutors were not seeking jail time for any of this, and that it was imposed by the judge. SF could be right that there were racist or misogynistic motives in that part. There were also, likely, anti-athlete motives, anti-impunity motives, and anti-smug-fuck motives.

I honestly don't think that they can be picked out, and accusing the judge of one or any of them is so much whistling in the dark if one doesn't actually read his opinion (which I am not interested in this enough to do even if it were handed me.)

You know what - people with high profiles sometimes get off (hello, OJ) and sometimes they get made an example of. Personally, I'm glad when an example is made of someone.

Just the other day, in the community I live in, Rob Ramage, former Captain of the Toronto Maple Leafs NHL team, was sentenced to 4 years in jail for his drunk-driving escapade that ended up killing a friend of his.

Ramage isn't black, he isn't a woman, but he got a pretty stiff sentence - and believe you me, in this hockey-crazed area, everyone is having second thoughts about getting behind the wheel after having a few if the courts are willing to put an NHL star away for so long.

Ilow · 01-19-2008, 12:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by highthief

You know what - people with high profiles sometimes get off (hello, OJ) and sometimes they get made an example of. Personally, I'm glad when an example is made of someone.

Just the other day, in the community I live in, Rob Ramage, former Captain of the Toronto Maple Leafs NHL team, was sentenced to 4 years in jail for his drunk-driving escapade that ended up killing a friend of his.

Ramage isn't black, he isn't a woman, but he got a pretty stiff sentence - and believe you me, in this hockey-crazed area, everyone is having second thoughts about getting behind the wheel after having a few if the courts are willing to put an NHL star away for so long.

Not to totally threadjack, but four years is a "stiff sentence" for killing someone, even involuntarily?? I was actually out a few weeks ago and a friend of a friend who had dome something similar (killed two friends in a drunk accident) and also done something like for or six years, and I found myself very pissed off that he was out drinking again and generally being an ass when his two friends were in the ground. It just seemed disrespectful. But back to my threadjack, I think that unless it is self defense or some really extenuating circumstances, four years for killing someone is kind of light. Probably seems that way to the victim's family, who will never see their son again...

QuasiMondo · 01-19-2008, 01:42 PM

Four years is light. Just ask former Yankees pitcher Jim Leyritz who is facing 15 years for DUI manslaughter.

OJ, on the other hand just had one of the baddest group of attorneys around versus the most incompetent group of prosecutors. Maybe it's just southern California prosecutors in general, but they have demonstrated a stunning inability to land a conviction in any high profile case. The Melendez Bros, Phil Specter, O.J. Simpson, Michael Jackson. Maybe Marion Jones should've moved to have her trial held in Los Angeles.

highthief · 01-19-2008, 05:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ilow

Not to totally threadjack, but four years is a "stiff sentence" for killing someone, even involuntarily?? I was actually out a few weeks ago and a friend of a friend who had dome something similar (killed two friends in a drunk accident) and also done something like for or six years, and I found myself very pissed off that he was out drinking again and generally being an ass when his two friends were in the ground. It just seemed disrespectful. But back to my threadjack, I think that unless it is self defense or some really extenuating circumstances, four years for killing someone is kind of light. Probably seems that way to the victim's family, who will never see their son again...

Sorry, but you need to know what other sentences are in this jurisdiction before you say that, and the circumstances of the particular case. It was a pretty significant sentence given those variables.

http://www.thestar.com/article/295218

Note the bit about it being one of the tougher sentences handed out to someone with no priors in these parts and despite the family of the deceased requesting leniency, he got significant time.

01-15-2008, 06:51 AM	#41 (permalink)
The_Jazz Asshole Administrator Location: Chicago	host, Scooter Libby and Marion Jones have a huge difference here - Jones was involved in identity theft. Most people convicted of identity theft serve time. In federal court that can draw a 2 year mandatory sentence, and it can even be prosecuted under the Patriot Act. You're so caught up in drawing lines between Libby and Jones that you forgot the major difference. The check fraud case came to light when Tim Montgomery, her boyfriend at the time and the father of one of her children (not to mention the world record holder in the 100M), tried to pass a bad check. It turns out that Jones as well as the coach both of them shared was involved. That local charge dovetailed with the BALCO investigation that had been underway for a few months at the time, but Jones was already under fire since her then-husband CJ Hunter (who is truly one of the world's biggest assholes in person, IMO) tested postive before the Sydney games. This is an identity theft case with perjury aspects. The judge is well within his bounds to reject a plea deal if he feels that it does not fit the crime. I don't understand how this has turned political, host. Because the judge was appointed by Bush? Because Libby was convicted of a similar crime? Give me a break. You're taking a small bit of the whole and trying to turn it into the main event. Marion Jones suffered no injustice. She committed multiple crimes. Even worse, solely in my mind for the record, she cheated. She was one of the greatest natural talents ever in the sport, and she turned around and betrayed us all. I'm glad she's being punished. It really sucks for her kids, but that's life. __________________ "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - B. Franklin "There ought to be limits to freedom." - George W. Bush "We have met the enemy and he is us." - Pogo

01-15-2008, 12:00 PM	#42 (permalink)
Strange Famous follower of the child's crusade?	Jailing women is not anti-sexism! Feminism is about equality, not exactly equal treatment. Men and women ARE different... physically and emotionally. There are very few genuine female criminals. Nealy all "crime" committed by women is non-violent, and nearly all of that is driven by desperation, normally when held in the sway of the male controlled illegal drug industry. There is a very small level of crime against children carried out by women, but very level compared to male crime. One prison would be adequate to hold all genuine female criminals in the US. Locking up women, again I will say - as if they were some kind of common thugs or swindlers - is an act of indecency. Marion Jones took performance enhancing drugs, and lied about to a court that she should not have had to face, given that she was not an active athlete at the time. The whole system that put her were she is is cruel, malicious, chippy and vengeful and cheap. On what grounds does the US State summon her to testify against oath??? What crime has she committed to force her to face cross-examination??? She is simply a ritual sacrifice, so that a sport which is full of drug use, right to its core, can cast aside a set number of people each year to carry on the pretence that it is clean. It is a pagan ceremony almost. __________________ "Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate, for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain without being uncovered." The Gospel of Thomas

01-15-2008, 12:10 PM	#43 (permalink)
Ustwo Pissing in the cornflakes	So if it were a male doing the same thing you wouldn't have a problem with it? __________________ Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

01-15-2008, 02:29 PM	#44 (permalink)
Strange Famous follower of the child's crusade?	It is less problematic to jail a man. I still think it would be unfair... I dont want to see Barry Bonds go to jail for cheating either. __________________ "Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate, for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain without being uncovered." The Gospel of Thomas

01-15-2008, 02:32 PM	#45 (permalink)
Charlatan Getting it. Super Moderator Location: Lion City	Marion Jones is not going to jail for cheating. __________________ "My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars." - Old Man Luedecke

01-15-2008, 05:35 PM	#49 (permalink)
silent_jay Her Jay Location: Ontario for now....	I learned in the 'boxing vs mma' thread, there is no use responding to SF as he'll just continue on his merry way with his thinking, no matter how many facts are presented or how much proof is presented to him. That said I still enjoy reading your posts SF, you're good shit. __________________ Absence makes the heart grow fonder

01-16-2008, 05:40 AM	#51 (permalink)
Leto Junkie Location: The Danforth	no... I didn't know. Shows how tuned in I am.

01-16-2008, 05:59 AM	#52 (permalink)
The_Jazz Asshole Administrator Location: Chicago	highthief, I think you forget that for 99% of Americans track and field only competes every 4 years. Major newspapers rarely carry any results from any European meets, and even then usually only the top 1 or 2 places. Carl Lewis was that guy that you saw A LOT every 4 years who then fell off the face of the planet. The best that Alan Webb can ever hope for is the same. __________________ "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - B. Franklin "There ought to be limits to freedom." - George W. Bush "We have met the enemy and he is us." - Pogo

01-16-2008, 10:37 AM	#54 (permalink)
Strange Famous follower of the child's crusade?	I would welcome a woman president. I just dont think Hillary Clinton is electable as a person, not as a woman. It is a shame - Jinnkai - that you categorise as a woman first and a politician second. I think this is an injustice. But to get back on track... Marion Jones is a threat to nobody, her so-called crimes have harmed nobody (she certainly wasnt the only athlete juicing - a huge minority of them are)... as I said before, I believe her punishment is a symbolic and pagan action. She is being thrown on the fire to maintain the image that US track is basically clean. If she must be punished for the alleged crime of perjury, it would be far more appropriate to issue a community service order...she should speak to young athletes and tell them how drugs caught up with her and didnt help in the end, so that they can learn from her example.... it is savagery to place a vulnerable young women in jail when she has not committed a violent crime. (the cheque fraud is completelt understood to be her partners activity, she was not criminally involved in it). It is a pretty strange thing to hear someone make the accusation that seeking to defend a woman from this kind of violence is some kind of sexism. It is nothing to do with being patronising or paternalistic, it is to do with having a basic sense of right and wrong. If Marion Jones stabbed someone, we'd be having a different argument - but she has not. She took steroids, which were pushed on her against her will by the US Athletics industry and the constant pressure applied on here, and lied about in an courtroom who's legality I have already challenged. __________________ "Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate, for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain without being uncovered." The Gospel of Thomas

01-16-2008, 11:37 AM	#55 (permalink)
The_Jazz Asshole Administrator Location: Chicago	Strange Famous - how about if she stole someone's identity? Because she did. She's going to jail, in part, because of a check fraud scheme involving her, her coach and Tim Montgomery. __________________ "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - B. Franklin "There ought to be limits to freedom." - George W. Bush "We have met the enemy and he is us." - Pogo

01-18-2008, 11:27 AM	#58 (permalink)
The_Jazz Asshole Administrator Location: Chicago	dlish - my point was more about American in general than Carl Lewis in particular. Carl definitely wanted more publicity, but couldn't overcome the inertia of the low public opinions of his sport. Jenny Finch for USA Softball is in the same boat. I am almost positive that Mitchell/The Mean Machine was 4th. I'd have to look it up, but that sounds right. __________________ "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - B. Franklin "There ought to be limits to freedom." - George W. Bush "We have met the enemy and he is us." - Pogo

01-18-2008, 12:33 PM	#60 (permalink)
Strange Famous follower of the child's crusade?	And is Linford in jail? Is Carl Lewis in jail? That's kind of the point. How many cases do you know where the prosecutor doesnt seek a jail sentence, but the judge gives the maximum sentence anyway? __________________ "Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate, for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain without being uncovered." The Gospel of Thomas

01-18-2008, 03:29 PM	#62 (permalink)
The_Jazz Asshole Administrator Location: Chicago	Thank you, highthief. Perfect. __________________ "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - B. Franklin "There ought to be limits to freedom." - George W. Bush "We have met the enemy and he is us." - Pogo

01-18-2008, 04:13 PM	#63 (permalink)
Strange Famous follower of the child's crusade?	I disagree completely. The Prosecution did not seek jail time... and she has not been found guilty of fraud, and has not been charged with fraud. She lied to protect her partner, and then in court retracted this and told the truth. In no court in any civilised nation in the world would this attract a 6 month prison sentence. Because I think this does need to be stressed - people are throwing around accusations of fraud and identity theft. Marion Jones has not been found guilty of fraud. She has not been sentenced for fraud. This is a simple case of a women lying to try and protect her partner... it is just unthinkable, especially when the lie is retracted - that this could be an offence that carries jail time. It is beyond belief. I mean, really... look at what has actually happened here and justify it is it is possible - rather than slinging around accusations that she has been sent to jail for cheque fraud, which is untrue. She is going to jail because she is Marion Jones. Simple as that. If Mary Smith has a boyfriend involved in cheque fraud and lies about it to try and protect him, then tells the truth... she isnt going to jail. There is not even a question of her going to jail. She is suffering for the corrupt and blighted sport that she represents. We see examples of Olympic races almost full of drug cheats quoted here... in my opinion Marion Jones hardly tarnishes the sport, by using performance enhancing drugs she is a pretty accurate reflection of many champions, This is what kills athletics for me. I always really like watching Tirunesh Dibaba - but it is just at the point that any athlete that breaks out and does something great, that smashes a PB in a championship... you kind of always have the doubt in the back of your mind if they did it cleanly. __________________ "Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate, for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain without being uncovered." The Gospel of Thomas

01-19-2008, 08:18 AM	#65 (permalink)
Tophat665 Minion of the scaléd ones Location: Northeast Jesusland	I think that the one point SF actually has here is that the prosecutors were not seeking jail time for any of this, and that it was imposed by the judge. SF could be right that there were racist or misogynistic motives in that part. There were also, likely, anti-athlete motives, anti-impunity motives, and anti-smug-fuck motives. I honestly don't think that they can be picked out, and accusing the judge of one or any of them is so much whistling in the dark if one doesn't actually read his opinion (which I am not interested in this enough to do even if it were handed me.) __________________ Light a man a fire, and he will be warm while it burns. Set a man on fire, and he will be warm for the rest of his life.

01-19-2008, 01:42 PM	#68 (permalink)
QuasiMondo Wise-ass Latino Location: Pretoria (Tshwane), RSA	Four years is light. Just ask former Yankees pitcher Jim Leyritz who is facing 15 years for DUI manslaughter. OJ, on the other hand just had one of the baddest group of attorneys around versus the most incompetent group of prosecutors. Maybe it's just southern California prosecutors in general, but they have demonstrated a stunning inability to land a conviction in any high profile case. The Melendez Bros, Phil Specter, O.J. Simpson, Michael Jackson. Maybe Marion Jones should've moved to have her trial held in Los Angeles. __________________ Cameron originally envisioned the Terminator as a small, unremarkable man, giving it the ability to blend in more easily. As a result, his first choice for the part was Lance Henriksen. O. J. Simpson was on the shortlist but Cameron did not think that such a nice guy could be a ruthless killer. -From the Collector's Edition DVD of The Terminator