Ilow

No need to be jealous, just because the Red Sox have more no-hitters in the last nine months than the D-backs have in their history. He's still young and inconsistent, but this shows why the Red Sox were reluctant to give him and Buchholtz up to get Santana. Besides, the dude's only been in remission from CANCER for a year. That's pretty good in my book. That Royals team has actually been pretty hot and had the reigning player of the week on it too, so you can't even dis him there.

__________________
"Religion is the one area of our discourse in which it is considered noble to pretend to be certain about things no human being could possibly be certain about"
--Sam Harris

Glory's Sun

Lester did what he should have been doing all along. He actually established a fastball. Kid has major problems with that. 2 more no-no's and the Sox will tie the Dodgers for most ever. I'd say there's a good chance.

Oh and we can't really forget Varitek in this either.. caught 4 no hitters.. that's quite the accomplishment.

kutulu

When I said average I didn't mean it as a knock against him. It's just that when you think of no-no's you think of the dominant aces. Nolan, Johnson, etc. Guys that pile up the strikeouts.

I will take back a little bit of it though. Lester is only 24. The fact that he has been able to put up league average numbers at young ages is great. He could probably have some very good peak years.

This certainly puts him in a select group of pitchers. Most of best pitchers of this generation (Clemens, Glavine, Maddox, Schilling) never got one.

Catchers can have a LOT to do with it.

Ilow

didn't mean to jump on you for the 'average' thing. it is weird how anabel sanchez can get one but schilling and pedro can't. so much is luck. what isn't luck is that Varitek caught 4 of them, tha dude takes his job seriously!

__________________
"Religion is the one area of our discourse in which it is considered noble to pretend to be certain about things no human being could possibly be certain about"
--Sam Harris

kutulu

I remember the Sanchez game, that was against the DBacks. At least Sanchez had a really good year in 2006.

Jose Jimenez threw one against the DBacks in a year when he had an ERA of 5.85. That one was against Randy Johnson, he lost 1-0, going the distance and striking out 14. Talk about a mismatch. That's why we play the games.

Fotzlid

My opinion of Lester has changed since watching him toss the 8 innings of no hit ball against the Jays (which they should have let him finish), then his no hitter last night. He definately throws better when he is working quickly.

kutulu

Working quickly can go hand in hand with pitching a great game. If you are throwing well, you get in a rhythm.

Ilow

plus you keep the defense interested and on their toes, which comes in handy.

__________________
"Religion is the one area of our discourse in which it is considered noble to pretend to be certain about things no human being could possibly be certain about"
--Sam Harris

pan6467

I have always preferred pitching duels over slugfests. It just seems that there is a lot less hitting and run production going on this year. It also seems that a lot of "older" guys are falling apart and deteriorating so much faster.

I think we are finding out who was on steroids and who wasn't.

__________________
I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

Glory's Sun

I dunno pan.. I think we have to wait a couple of years to really see what's going on. That will give a better barometer of the situation. Old guys fall apart easily. They can have a good year and just not have the stuff the next. That's just how it works sometimes.

The_Jazz

Hmmm. Cubs have the best record in the NL. And tied for second in the MLB. Interesting. We have hitting AND pitching. I don't know the last time I saw that. Sorriano and Fukodome seem to be on opposite schedules so when one is hitting, the other isn't. If they ever get going together, it's going to be interesting. If we could get Sorriano to tighten up on some of his mental errors, I'd feel a lot better. I'd feel even better if Wood got completely on track in his closer role since he's been inconsistent at best.

For the record, it's May and the historical June Swoon has yet to start. We'll see what happens when they have to start playing in the heat of the day, every day. The real story in the NL Central is how long the Cardinals can keep going without major injury. Because as soon as that starts to happen, they'll slide back down the flagpole. They're not a particularly deep team this year.

__________________
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - B. Franklin
"There ought to be limits to freedom." - George W. Bush
"We have met the enemy and he is us." - Pogo

Glory's Sun

I keep waiting for the cubs to implode. Wood will get an injury .. soriano.. well.. we all know that story. Fukidome, can he last the entire season?

MontanaXVI

No point in making a new thread for this, but to make a long story short.

I was in Cincy this past weekend to see the Braves and Reds play. Bruce hit career HR #1 walkoff shot in 10th inning, Griffey Jr. hit career #599

I put pics up, but for whatever damn reason no one in the baseball league can see them. Here is the url does it work for anyone on here and if no what error do you get.

http://picasaweb.google.com/MontanaX...ey=SBD-DcySbKc

__________________
Spank you very much

The_Jazz

I can see them. Some great actions shots. And a great shot of the back of someone's head....

__________________
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - B. Franklin
"There ought to be limits to freedom." - George W. Bush
"We have met the enemy and he is us." - Pogo

MontanaXVI

I know!!!

dude pissed me off, just as they rolled the 598 to 599 he stood up, I was PISSED!!!!

__________________
Spank you very much

crewsor

I can see them from here. Nice pics.

__________________
We all have wings, some of us just don't know why.

QuasiMondo

OMG Pedro is back!

Geez, he comes back and the bats just spontaneously combust.

I do feel bad for Zito, though. Nobody deserves to get beat up like that.

__________________
Cameron originally envisioned the Terminator as a small, unremarkable man, giving it the ability to blend in more easily. As a result, his first choice for the part was Lance Henriksen. O. J. Simpson was on the shortlist but Cameron did not think that such a nice guy could be a ruthless killer.

-From the Collector's Edition DVD of The Terminator

pan6467

great shots, how is GAB?

So what do you think of Bruce the real thing or just a fluke?

__________________
I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

The_Jazz

Last night Joba proved, well, nothing about himself since he's got a career ahead of him, but he did prove that management is rushing him.

And my Cubs need more consistent pitching. The bullpen is one of the best around, but we need consistently better starting pitching if we're going to keep the train rolling.

By the way, Pittsburgh is over .500 against the NL once you subtract all their loses to the Cubs.

__________________
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - B. Franklin
"There ought to be limits to freedom." - George W. Bush
"We have met the enemy and he is us." - Pogo

Glory's Sun

The yanks are fucking up so nicely by making Joba a starter. I for one love it. It's so funny how they are trying to be the Red Sox and it's blowing up in their face.

Ilow

It is kind of delightful. Sometimes if I listen hard enough I can hear Yankee players cracking under the pressure that management is putting on them. We'll see if Joba has the mental makeup to survive the inevitable failures and develop a third and fourth pitch so he can try to go at least five or six innings. I personally am a little dubious that he can, but we'll see.
Oh yeah, and I hope that last night was a positive sign for what Red Sox fans can expect from the team while Big Papi is on the DL. The can't replace him, but decent starting pitching, speed on the bases and timely hitting should be a good stopgap.
On another note, if Manny can get to around 525 homers or so by the end of this year, it seems like he as a reasonable shot at 600. That would only be about 25 a year for three years after that or 35 or so for a couple of years. Given his consistency over the years, either seems reasonable, which I might not have said a few years ago.

__________________
"Religion is the one area of our discourse in which it is considered noble to pretend to be certain about things no human being could possibly be certain about"
--Sam Harris

Glory's Sun

It's not really the yankees players that I hear cracking under the pressure as much as I hear it coming from boss jr and Girardi. I can almost bet the yanks wished they had kept Torre. He may not be the best, but damn if he didn't know how to manage a team like that and handle the media. Joba, hasn't been stretched out and he hasn't had to face big opponents yet. Will he develop more pitches.. my money is on no. If he does, and he does take over for Rivera, then he'll be lethal.. but I have a feeling they've fucked the kids career before it's even begun.

As far as Manny goes. He's already a HOF player. I'd like to see him get 600, but I wish people would realize just how much of a great hitter he really is. He's probably one of the top 5 right handed hitters of all time. That is way more than how many home runs you hit.

The_Jazz

Top 5 of ALL TIME? Big stretch there, considering some of the stats out there already.

I'll give him top 5 current players, but he's no George Brett. Or Hank Aaron. Or Willie Mays. Or Rogers Hornsby. Or even Pujols (the motherfucker).

There's DiMaggio, Jimmie Foxx, Joe Medwick, Vlad Guerrero, Kiki Culyer, Kirby Puckett, Jeter, Nomar, Clemente.....

Definitely one of the top 5 current players? Ever? He needs to play a lot more than 3 more years. He needs at least 5 at his current production to even be considered.

__________________
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - B. Franklin
"There ought to be limits to freedom." - George W. Bush
"We have met the enemy and he is us." - Pogo

kutulu

Manny is 10th for career OPS+. Five of the top 10 are lefties. He takes a hit because of his defense but he's a lot better than he's given credit for. He also excels at the catch-high5-assist play.

Bear Cub

That right there is pricless. Just about the only defensive play he excels at, but priceless.

__________________
Living in the United Socialist States of America.

djtestudo

Actually, he's tied for 25th all-time in OPS+, with 11 lefties and a switch-hitter ahead of him. But there are also righties there that I would not put ahead of him, like Pete Browning and Dave Orr (who spent most of their careers in the American Association, they playe dso long ago) and Mark McGwire.

That leaves Pujols, Frank Thomas, Dick Allen, DiMaggio, Mays, Aaron, Foxx, Hank Greenberg and Hornsby.

So he's at least top-ten.

Hornsby, Pujols, Foxx, DiMaggio and Greenberg are the only ones from that group ahead in batting average; and Hornsby, Pujols, Foxx, Thomas and Greenberg are the only ones ahead in OBP. Only Aaron, Mays, Foxx and Thomas are ahead in home runs.

So, I think you could make a legitamite arguement right now that he (and Pujols) are top-five among right-handed hitters. A few more years and there should be little doubt.

(I think I'm one of three Orioles fans that actually LIKES Manny Ramirez )

__________________
"Final thought: I just rented Michael Moore's Bowling for Columbine. Frankly, it was the worst sports movie I've ever seen."
--Peter Schmuck, The (Baltimore) Sun

Ilow

I am glad to see that you enjoy Manny Ramirez. Even though his fielding can at times drive fans crazy, you have to respect that he generally plays the game with a certain childlike enjoyment and is one of the most prodigious hitters of his time.
After a brief review of some stats, courtesy of baseball-reference.com manny's numbers do stack up pretty favorably with some of the best in the game. In a couple of areas, he may be ranked in the 20's, but he can jump up several spots by the end of the year because people are all clustered up.
Here are a couple stats, for example:

RankPlayer (age)Extra-Base HitsBats 1.Hank Aaron+ 1477R 29.Manny Ramirez (36)1005R
Manny 15th for Righties, 2 active players ahead of him (Griffey, Thomas)


RankPlayer (age)Slugging %Bats 1.Babe Ruth+* .6898L 8.Manny Ramirez (36).5910R
Manny 4th for righties (Bonds and Pujols ahead)

RankPlayer (age)OPSBats 1.Babe Ruth+* 1.1638L 10.Manny Ramirez (36).9994R
Manny 5th for righties (Bonds and Pujols)


RankPlayer (age)Home RunsBats 1.Barry Bonds* (43)762L 24.Manny Ramirez (36)502R
Manny 14th for righties, he will likely never catch A-Rod, and may not get to Griff, if he stays healthy. Of course 4 of the top ten are known PED guys.


RankPlayer (age)RBIBats 1.Hank Aaron+ 2297R 25.Manny Ramirez (36)1643R
Manny about 15th for righties

RankPlayer (age)At Bats per Home RunBats 1.Mark McGwire 10.60R 10.Manny Ramirez (36)14.50R
Many is 6th for righties

After this review, I would probably say that assuming his career goes for a few more productive years he will be one of the top 5 righthanded hitters ever, but he may not be there quite yet (top ten?). His consistency has been remarkable, and he has a high career average for a slugger.
His high-5's per outfield assist is right up there as well.

__________________
"Religion is the one area of our discourse in which it is considered noble to pretend to be certain about things no human being could possibly be certain about"
--Sam Harris

Glory's Sun

I think what amazes me the most about Manny is his ability to get on base when the count is not in his favor. A pitcher can get 2 strikes on the man and he'll find a way to get on base. He has an amazing ability to adjust at the plate that I really haven't seen before.

I say he's top 5 already. Stats say he needs a few more years.. so eventually we'll both be right I've always enjoyed Manny being Manny (for the most part) He has fun out there.. he enjoys what he does. This year is almost a little slice of heaven with his new outlook and desire. Who cares if it's a contract year, the man has always been fun to watch and hopefully we'll get to see him end his career in Boston.

Ilow

Amen, brother.
His ability to "spoil" pitchers pitches when he is down in the count until he can get one to drive is pretty uncanny His new outlook (i.e.contract year) is refreshing, but his hitting has always been there.

__________________
"Religion is the one area of our discourse in which it is considered noble to pretend to be certain about things no human being could possibly be certain about"
--Sam Harris

kutulu

You're right, I meant to write OPS, not OPS+

djtestudo

That's what I figured

__________________
"Final thought: I just rented Michael Moore's Bowling for Columbine. Frankly, it was the worst sports movie I've ever seen."
--Peter Schmuck, The (Baltimore) Sun

djtestudo

http://mlb.mlb.com/media/video.jsp?mid=200806052844179

Coco Crisp attempting to kill Akinori Iwamura with a take-out slide on a STOLEN BASE. (Wednesday)

http://mlb.mlb.com/media/video.jsp?mid=200806052847841

Coco Crisp charging the mound after being hit on the hip by James Shields. (Thursday)

Seeing those videos, and hearing his post-game comments on BBTN and Sportscenter, he will be lucky to be only suspended for ten games. Complete lack of remorse. May have killed his trade value out of his moronic prick-ness.

And of course, Jacoby Ellsbury gets hurt later in the game. And the Orioles come in to Fenway next week. Suddenly I feel better about that

__________________
"Final thought: I just rented Michael Moore's Bowling for Columbine. Frankly, it was the worst sports movie I've ever seen."
--Peter Schmuck, The (Baltimore) Sun

QuasiMondo

Photo of the moment:



I'm sure he didn't expect to run into a pitcher's fist while charging the mound. Too bad I can't find pics of Jonny Gomes wailing on him after Navarro took him down.

EDIT: Found one.


What was sup with Manny getting tangled up with Youkilis later in the game?

__________________
Cameron originally envisioned the Terminator as a small, unremarkable man, giving it the ability to blend in more easily. As a result, his first choice for the part was Lance Henriksen. O. J. Simpson was on the shortlist but Cameron did not think that such a nice guy could be a ruthless killer.

-From the Collector's Edition DVD of The Terminator

Glory's Sun

Actually, it looked like CoCo did expect Shields to throw something. He dodged it so cleanly it was almost sad. CoCo is just pissed because he can't secure a starting position. And yeah.. fucking Ellsbury gets injured.. it's ok because I really doubt MLB will suspend CoCo for that long. Shields was aggressive the whole game, there's always bad blood between these two teams and it really wasn't as bad as it looked. That hog Gomes can't throw a punch if his dick depended on it. They were weak.

As far as the Manny and Youk situation.. who the fuck knows. This is the one time that I don't like Manny being Manny but I can forgive him as long as his hammy is ok and he's back soon.

Ilow

You forgot the part that Coco was responding to the second baseman (actually not iwamora) putting his knee down trying to injure coco on the previous sb attempt, which was probably out of frustration because they couldn't catch him stealing on a pitch out.
I didn't think that his comments were too out of line, but he was a bit more forthcoming than players often are in that circumstance. I particularly liked when he called the Rays "little girls" because they were scratching him and trying to claw his eyes and pull his hair on the bottom of the pile. He actually gave credit to shields for not throwing at his head, and to navarro.
He and shields will probably get like 5 games or so each, which will be only one game to shields because he's a pitcher. The people who should get the biggest suspensions are people like gomes, who came throwing all kinds of punches like usual (he's the one who charged in from right field, think it was against the Yankees) and got into it. In my opinion the Rays were completely bush (like always) and couldn't just let it be about the pitcher and the batter. Rather than trying to break it up, they escalated the situation This actually goes to the manager before that, as well.
Oh, btw, I don't think it's considered classy to revel in other teams players getting hurt (ellsbury).

Yeah, pretty much everyone (commentators and players) siad the manny youk thing was a non issue, and was generally something that just wasn't caught on camera but happens a lot on every team. Youk was probably just pissed that manny was bitching about his hammies, when youk was supposed to have an off day but ended up playing a position he's never even played before for the whole game.

__________________
"Religion is the one area of our discourse in which it is considered noble to pretend to be certain about things no human being could possibly be certain about"
--Sam Harris

djtestudo

1) It was the shortstop, Bartlett.

2) How is putting your knee down in front of the base attempting to injure him? I heard it as Coco being pissed at Bartlett for breaking some goofy "unwritten rule".

__________________
"Final thought: I just rented Michael Moore's Bowling for Columbine. Frankly, it was the worst sports movie I've ever seen."
--Peter Schmuck, The (Baltimore) Sun

Ilow

It is some sort of unwritten rule that whoever is covering second on a throw from the catcher doesn't put their knee in front of the bag, because when guys slide in headfirst they can break their fingers on the knee. Hence coco going in hard, feet first on the next slide to send a message, put you knee down and the next time it will be spikes, not fingers that get there first. All of that stuff is pretty much accepted practice, but the manager Maddon got his panties in a twist and began the verbal crap between him and coco, which led to the beanball and the mound charge (which are pretty much also relatively accepted--get hit, charge the mound, whatever) The biggest issue was all of the cheap shots that the Rays players took after coco was subdued and they were "protecting their pitcher." Never mind the fact that Shields is 6'4" 215 and Coco is about 6' 180 and Shields didn't look like he needed much protecting, jumping in 6 on 1 was completely bush league. That team is full of losers with bad attitudes, so it isn't really surprising, I guess.

__________________
"Religion is the one area of our discourse in which it is considered noble to pretend to be certain about things no human being could possibly be certain about"
--Sam Harris

djtestudo

Maybe Coco shouldn't have, you know, charged the damn mound if he couldn't take the consequences.

And he's the one that didn't go in "spikes up", but "cannonball into the knees and groin with intent to injure".

You really shouldn't be defending him here. He has no excuse.

__________________
"Final thought: I just rented Michael Moore's Bowling for Columbine. Frankly, it was the worst sports movie I've ever seen."
--Peter Schmuck, The (Baltimore) Sun

pan6467

First, if you protect the bag from the runner with any part of your body, ask any catcher, 3b, 2b, ss who has ever played the game. Bartlett was playing ball the way he should be. To say "well he may break fingers".... is the equivelant to saying, "spikes first at your knee". Both are the WRONG attitude. It should be "let's play ball the way it should be played hard and earn our money".

Ty Cobb used to sharpen his spikes before every game so when he stole a base if someone tried to get in his way they got a message. Pete Rose when he started in the majors and played 2b would almost be like a catcher guarding the plate.

Secondly, throwing at someone's hip is far from a "beanball".

Thirdly, YES the field position players run out and protect their pitcher.

I remember as a kid watching Johnny Carson, he had on Yogi Berra. Johnny asked Yogi about the brawls in baseball..... Yogi said this (paraphrased) "You ever watch a baseball brawl, we hit like women. We go ut and pile up and swing with stiff arms, we don't want to truly hurt anyone, because we have to play those guys again and if we hurt one of them this game..... they'll hurt one of us next game."

Have you watched the brawl? Sheilds missed his punch on Coco quite easily. Some of it was for show, some to say "don't fuck with me". The brawl afterward..... come on that was far from a street fight. Was Coco seriously injured?

Come on, now. For the love of God brawls and this stuff has always been a part of baseball's charm for many of us. Crying over it and saying "they started it".... is petty little league bullshit.

__________________
I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

Ilow

First, the only player who routinely blocks, or should block the base is the catcher. Look at any play at second, good technique when receiving a throw from the catcher is to straddle the bag so that when you receive the baseball you do not have to reach back to tag the runner. There is no coach in the world who will tell you to block the bag with your knee. It is bad etiquette and bad technique. Watch the plays at second, you almost never see it. Besides, Joe Maddon got completely bent out of shape when something similar happened to his player (against the Yankees).
Second, although beanball is usually throwing at a batter's head, intentionally plunking a hitter still escalates the situation.
Third, you and Yogi are right that most basebrawls are usually purse-swingers, this however was not. Crawford, Gomes, etc were going in there with a definite attempt to injure and swing as hard as they could at a defenseless guy (who was in a chokehold, by the way). If you saw that at a bar you would call them a bunch of pussies for jumping in six on one. Besides, you protect your pitcher by separating the parties. Seriously, their pitcher is a hulking 6'4", and Coco is the second smallest guy on the roster, how much protecting did he really need.
The bottom line is that the Rays have a vast inferiority complex and have sucked for so long that they have bad blood with a lot of teams, especially the Yankees and Sox, who they play 18 times a year, and consistently lose to. Add in a bunch of players with bad attitudes and discipline problems (Gomes, Upton) and you get a team of punks.
Coco would have been better off not charging the mound, but, it was Maddon's fault for escalating the situation. He has to act like a manager, not a child in that circumstance.

__________________
"Religion is the one area of our discourse in which it is considered noble to pretend to be certain about things no human being could possibly be certain about"
--Sam Harris