lbs for lbs - who is the greatest of all time? - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

Strange Famous · 11-08-2007, 01:37 PM

I am asking about boxing, not any other form "martial art"

My opinion - Jack Johnson.

He was 20 years ahead of his term, the first modern boxer in an era of brawlers... a masterful defensive fighter who could also hit like a mule when he wanted to (see Stanley Ketchel...)

He thought in an era of unbelievable racism (in one of his title fights a band at ringside played a song "all coons look alike to me" - excuse me for even repeating such an obscene thing). He didnt just fight James Jeffries, he though the whole of white America, he thought 80 millions, and whipped them all. Most of his career he could have finished his opponents much more easily but was forced to carry them to make the fights seem closer and generate more hype.

The level of racism he faced really was shameful, utterly unbelievable, not just amongst common people, but even so called respectable papers and media... and for most of his life Johnson simply behaved as if it didnt exist and did whatever he wanted. It was enough to send him into nervous collapse, and kill his wife at one pont. But it wasnt enough to beat him. They sent him to prison for daring to marry a white woman - and in prison he lorded it up and did whatever he pleased - he even registered a patent for a new tool he designed! They couldnt find anyone to beat him until he finally was blackmailed into taking a dive when he was almost middle aged. The press would want to take pictures of him eating watermelons, and he would make them listen to him playing clasical music on the violin.

What he achieved, he did on his own terms. He didnt behave like a "humble black", he behaved like a champion and lived like a king. Joe Louis was a wonderful puncher, but he couldnt have beaten Jack Johnson once in a hundred tries, nor Marciano, nor Dempsey.

And noth withstanding what he achieved as a person, the whole mas of hate and pressure and prejudice against him... above all of this he was a master boxer... in his prime almost impossible to hit cleanly, skilled beyond comparison amongst all of his peers.

That's why I rank Jack Johnson as the best lbs for lbs ever.

Honourable mention to Sugar Ray Robinson, George Foreman and Jimmy Wilde (The Ghost with the Hammer in his Hand - in my opinion the hardest puncher at his weight who ever entered the ring)

highthief · 11-08-2007, 02:57 PM

For Johnson - no.

First of all, we have no real film of his fights (just a bit of herky-herky stuff) so it's hard to say what he could do.

Second, he drew the colour line - funny to say given he was the first black champ, but he refused to defend against black fighters, so he ended up ducking as many guys as Dempsey, Willard, or any of the white fighters of the day (all except Tommy Burns who actually gave Johnson his title shot).

To say Louis couldn't have beaten him in a 100 tries is a bit of an outlandish assertation, given that both fighters are almost always rated in the top 3 or 4 heavies of all time (including by people who actually saw both fight).

Sugar Ray Robinson has to top the list for me. Fought and was successful at several weights over a long period of time. Could knock a guy's head off or dance him into the ground. Truly fought all comers be they black or white.

Willravel · 11-08-2007, 03:02 PM

This link really sorts up my thoughts:
http://ezinearticles.com/?TOP-TEN-Po...-Ever&id=25070

It's gotta be Sugar, he was the best.

highthief · 11-08-2007, 05:00 PM

It's not a BAD list, but is heavily slanted towards the heavyweights. I like Lennox Lewis, but can't even give him an honourable mention as a pound for pound great fighter given he weighed over 240lbs!

Archie Moore and Sugar Ray Leonard are excellent choices, however.

Not Right Now · 11-08-2007, 11:51 PM

Sugar Ray Leonard bitches.

I'm also quite fond of Rocky Marciano, Don't know if I'd call him the best. Definitely one of the craziest.

telekinetic · 11-09-2007, 07:29 AM

Randy Couture! Royce Gracie! Spider Silva! Chuck Liddell

/flees thread, but not before cowardly knocking it to the ground and then kneeing it in the head like a thug

Glory's Sun · 11-09-2007, 07:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Not Right Now

Sugar Ray Leonard bitches.

I'm also quite fond of Rocky Marciano, Don't know if I'd call him the best. Definitely one of the craziest.

Marciano was a pure badass.

As far as the OP question.. that's easy.. it's Sugar Ray.

Strange Famous · 11-09-2007, 08:21 AM

But which Sugar Ray, guccilvr?

Normally I would assume Robinson, but one other person picked Leonard.

Quote:

Originally Posted by highthief

For Johnson - no.

First of all, we have no real film of his fights (just a bit of herky-herky stuff) so it's hard to say what he could do.

Second, he drew the colour line - funny to say given he was the first black champ, but he refused to defend against black fighters, so he ended up ducking as many guys as Dempsey, Willard, or any of the white fighters of the day (all except Tommy Burns who actually gave Johnson his title shot).

To say Louis couldn't have beaten him in a 100 tries is a bit of an outlandish assertation, given that both fighters are almost always rated in the top 3 or 4 heavies of all time (including by people who actually saw both fight).

Sugar Ray Robinson has to top the list for me. Fought and was successful at several weights over a long period of time. Could knock a guy's head off or dance him into the ground. Truly fought all comers be they black or white.

Jack Johnson fought, and beat, Sam Langford - who is the only fighter I ever heard him being accused of ducking. The simple fact was he could make more fighting an inferior white fighter than a dangerous brawler like Langford... but he beat him all the same, twice I believe, before he was champ.

Glory's Sun · 11-09-2007, 08:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Strange Famous

But which Sugar Ray, guccilvr?

Normally I would assume Robinson, but one other person picked Leonard.

Jack Johnson fought, and beat, Sam Langford - who is the only fighter I ever heard him being accused of ducking. The simple fact was he could make more fighting an inferior white fighter than a dangerous brawler like Langford... but he beat him all the same, twice I believe, before he was champ.

sorry.. Leonard is the real Sugar Ray.

Strange Famous · 11-09-2007, 09:47 AM

since willravel went first - my top 10

1 - Jack Johnson
2 - Sugar Ray Robinson
3 - Muhammad Ali
4 - Jimmy Wilde
5 - George Foreman
6 - Julio Cesar Chavez
7 - Marvin Hagler
8 - Pernell Whitacker
9 - Willie Pep
10 - Sam Langford

highthief · 11-09-2007, 02:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Strange Famous

But which Sugar Ray, guccilvr?

Normally I would assume Robinson, but one other person picked Leonard.

Jack Johnson fought, and beat, Sam Langford - who is the only fighter I ever heard him being accused of ducking. The simple fact was he could make more fighting an inferior white fighter than a dangerous brawler like Langford... but he beat him all the same, twice I believe, before he was champ.

Note "before he was champ". White fighters did the same - Jim Corbett, for instance, fought black fighters prior to becoming champ. tommy Burns obviously gave Johnson his title shot.

Johnson lost a lot of fights too - 14 or 15, IIRC, including to Light Heavyweight Joe Choynski, and to Marvin Hart - neither of whom make anyone's top ten list.

Strange Famous · 11-09-2007, 03:10 PM

yes.. he lost those fights when he was learning how to fight and was "literally" starving.

The point is that Johnson BEAT Langford twice, when they were both in their prime. and Burns gave Johnson a title shot aftre being chased and taunted for three years,,, and when Jack caught up with him at last he gave him such a beating that he had to physically lift him up to prevent him being knocked out at least 6 times.

Put yourself in Jack Johnson's position.. which fight would you have taken... given the history, given the racial situation... Langford or Jeffries?

Langford was a wonderful fighter, but he was a smaller man than Jack. Jack beat him once by outboxing him, and once in an all out brawl. Jack did lose some fights coming up when he was learning... fighters didnt have protected careers like they do now.

Obviously I never saw him live... but from the film Ive seen and what Ive read, I judge him as the best. The best defensive fighter ever, and someone who won the greatest title in the world when ALL of white America was against him.

Joe Louis beat Max Schmelling with everyone behind him.

Jack Johnson beat James Jeffries against a whole nation.

I genuinely think, as great a slugger as Joe was, that Jack Johnson could have beaten Joe Louis when he was 50 years old... Joe wouldnt have laid a full out punch on him in 50 rounds, let alone 15.

highthief · 11-09-2007, 04:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Strange Famous

Obviously I never saw him live... but from the film Ive seen and what Ive read, I judge him as the best. The best defensive fighter ever, and someone who won the greatest title in the world when ALL of white America was against him.

I think you are correct to give Johnson credit for his defensive skills but understand the context - he was an innovator, among the first to successfully adopt certain techniques of defense. This made him, in his day, a great fighter.

But the person to do it first is not neccessarily the best - in fact, he is almost always NOT the best and is inevitably succeeded by people who do it better.

It's like the first few times a team played 4-4-2 - a complete shock to the system, and no one knew how to handle such an approach. Now, it's old hat.

Strange Famous · 11-10-2007, 11:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by highthief

I think you are correct to give Johnson credit for his defensive skills but understand the context - he was an innovator, among the first to successfully adopt certain techniques of defense. This made him, in his day, a great fighter.

But the person to do it first is not neccessarily the best - in fact, he is almost always NOT the best and is inevitably succeeded by people who do it better.

It's like the first few times a team played 4-4-2 - a complete shock to the system, and no one knew how to handle such an approach. Now, it's old hat.

I think that that is a very good point, but I take a different angle.

Gentleman Jim Corbett was the first fighter (or first champion anyway) to really concentrate on defence, but Johnson was a master counter puncher and really was the perfect defensive fighter imo.

Now, in terms of pure technique and stance, did Johnson have a better defense than, say, Sugar Ray Leonard? Absolutely not... but I think that the person who breaks the paradigm, which is what Johnson did deserves more credit than people who follow.

And in argument between era's... you have to look at the context of what people achieve. Johnson was so skillful, such a clever fighter, so mentally strong - I think in any era he would excel. If he was fighting today he would have the benefit of far better training, far better tactics and styles developed over decades... and I think he would be as unhittable today as he was in his prime.

And in terms of context - I dont want to over stress it, but Johnson entered the ring with the very real possibility of being lynched and killed every time he fought a white fighter.

Different styles make fights... my personal opinion is that raw sluggers like Louis, Dempsey, Marciano - who were all awesome sluggers - would have just been picked apart by a defensive master like Johnson.

A quicker fighter like Ali or Tyson would have given Johnson a lot more problems.

Kurant · 11-13-2007, 06:27 AM

Wow, Pernell Whitaker in the top 10 eh? And no Leonard? Whitaker to me was in his prime when he took the 87-0 Julio Chavez to a draw. Past that, his career to me wasn't a top 10 career of all time. And to me, Oscar would belong in that list before Whitaker. Oscar is the only fighter of our current generation that would even crack the top 10. I'm sure if I thought about it a little longer, he may not crack the top 12-15 though. But, it's 5 am, and I'm about to walk out the door.

Other then that, switch Sugar Ray Robinson and Jack Johnson, and that's a quality list of great fighters, one that I can't disagree with much.

I would probably have to throw ol' Rocky Marciano in there too.

Strange Famous · 12-08-2007, 12:02 PM

well, past he top 3 or 4 its subjective... everyone would have Sugar Ray Robinson and Muhammad Ali in the top 3, everyone would have Sam Langford in the top 10.

Pernell was a contraversial choice.. I would have to pick a top 50 to rep everyone I wanted to.

I think Hagler was the best of that quartet (Leanord, Duran, Hearns, Hagler) and I picked him, I wouldnt be violently against any of that 4 in the top 10 though.

zerosk8 · 01-02-2008, 07:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Strange Famous

since willravel went first - my top 10

1 - Jack Johnson
2 - Sugar Ray Robinson
3 - Muhammad Ali
4 - Jimmy Wilde
5 - George Foreman
6 - Julio Cesar Chavez
7 - Marvin Hagler
8 - Pernell Whitacker
9 - Willie Pep
10 - Sam Langford

This is a great list, but I think that you have to put Ray Mancini on that list somewhere. He was the toughest damn fighter that I have ever seen in my life. He just would never quit. His fight against Du Koo Kim was the best fight that I've ever seen. Good list, I would just add Mancini!

11-08-2007, 01:37 PM	#1 (permalink)
Strange Famous follower of the child's crusade?	lbs for lbs - who is the greatest of all time? I am asking about boxing, not any other form "martial art" My opinion - Jack Johnson. He was 20 years ahead of his term, the first modern boxer in an era of brawlers... a masterful defensive fighter who could also hit like a mule when he wanted to (see Stanley Ketchel...) He thought in an era of unbelievable racism (in one of his title fights a band at ringside played a song "all coons look alike to me" - excuse me for even repeating such an obscene thing). He didnt just fight James Jeffries, he though the whole of white America, he thought 80 millions, and whipped them all. Most of his career he could have finished his opponents much more easily but was forced to carry them to make the fights seem closer and generate more hype. The level of racism he faced really was shameful, utterly unbelievable, not just amongst common people, but even so called respectable papers and media... and for most of his life Johnson simply behaved as if it didnt exist and did whatever he wanted. It was enough to send him into nervous collapse, and kill his wife at one pont. But it wasnt enough to beat him. They sent him to prison for daring to marry a white woman - and in prison he lorded it up and did whatever he pleased - he even registered a patent for a new tool he designed! They couldnt find anyone to beat him until he finally was blackmailed into taking a dive when he was almost middle aged. The press would want to take pictures of him eating watermelons, and he would make them listen to him playing clasical music on the violin. What he achieved, he did on his own terms. He didnt behave like a "humble black", he behaved like a champion and lived like a king. Joe Louis was a wonderful puncher, but he couldnt have beaten Jack Johnson once in a hundred tries, nor Marciano, nor Dempsey. And noth withstanding what he achieved as a person, the whole mas of hate and pressure and prejudice against him... above all of this he was a master boxer... in his prime almost impossible to hit cleanly, skilled beyond comparison amongst all of his peers. That's why I rank Jack Johnson as the best lbs for lbs ever. Honourable mention to Sugar Ray Robinson, George Foreman and Jimmy Wilde (The Ghost with the Hammer in his Hand - in my opinion the hardest puncher at his weight who ever entered the ring) __________________ "Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate, for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain without being uncovered." The Gospel of Thomas

11-08-2007, 02:57 PM	#2 (permalink)
highthief Junkie Location: Ontario, Canada	For Johnson - no. First of all, we have no real film of his fights (just a bit of herky-herky stuff) so it's hard to say what he could do. Second, he drew the colour line - funny to say given he was the first black champ, but he refused to defend against black fighters, so he ended up ducking as many guys as Dempsey, Willard, or any of the white fighters of the day (all except Tommy Burns who actually gave Johnson his title shot). To say Louis couldn't have beaten him in a 100 tries is a bit of an outlandish assertation, given that both fighters are almost always rated in the top 3 or 4 heavies of all time (including by people who actually saw both fight). Sugar Ray Robinson has to top the list for me. Fought and was successful at several weights over a long period of time. Could knock a guy's head off or dance him into the ground. Truly fought all comers be they black or white. __________________ Si vis pacem parabellum.

11-08-2007, 05:00 PM	#4 (permalink)
highthief Junkie Location: Ontario, Canada	It's not a BAD list, but is heavily slanted towards the heavyweights. I like Lennox Lewis, but can't even give him an honourable mention as a pound for pound great fighter given he weighed over 240lbs! Archie Moore and Sugar Ray Leonard are excellent choices, however. __________________ Si vis pacem parabellum.

11-08-2007, 11:51 PM	#5 (permalink)
Not Right Now Insane Location: Far Away	Sugar Ray Leonard bitches. I'm also quite fond of Rocky Marciano, Don't know if I'd call him the best. Definitely one of the craziest. __________________ I only came to dance.

11-09-2007, 07:29 AM	#6 (permalink)
telekinetic zomgomgomgomgomgomg Location: Fauxenix, Azerona	Randy Couture! Royce Gracie! Spider Silva! Chuck Liddell /flees thread, but not before cowardly knocking it to the ground and then kneeing it in the head like a thug __________________ twisted no more

11-08-2007, 03:02 PM	#3 (permalink)
Willravel ... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.	This link really sorts up my thoughts: http://ezinearticles.com/?TOP-TEN-Po...-Ever&id=25070 It's gotta be Sugar, he was the best.

11-09-2007, 09:47 AM	#10 (permalink)
Strange Famous follower of the child's crusade?	since willravel went first - my top 10 1 - Jack Johnson 2 - Sugar Ray Robinson 3 - Muhammad Ali 4 - Jimmy Wilde 5 - George Foreman 6 - Julio Cesar Chavez 7 - Marvin Hagler 8 - Pernell Whitacker 9 - Willie Pep 10 - Sam Langford __________________ "Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate, for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain without being uncovered." The Gospel of Thomas

11-09-2007, 03:10 PM	#12 (permalink)
Strange Famous follower of the child's crusade?	yes.. he lost those fights when he was learning how to fight and was "literally" starving. The point is that Johnson BEAT Langford twice, when they were both in their prime. and Burns gave Johnson a title shot aftre being chased and taunted for three years,,, and when Jack caught up with him at last he gave him such a beating that he had to physically lift him up to prevent him being knocked out at least 6 times. Put yourself in Jack Johnson's position.. which fight would you have taken... given the history, given the racial situation... Langford or Jeffries? Langford was a wonderful fighter, but he was a smaller man than Jack. Jack beat him once by outboxing him, and once in an all out brawl. Jack did lose some fights coming up when he was learning... fighters didnt have protected careers like they do now. Obviously I never saw him live... but from the film Ive seen and what Ive read, I judge him as the best. The best defensive fighter ever, and someone who won the greatest title in the world when ALL of white America was against him. Joe Louis beat Max Schmelling with everyone behind him. Jack Johnson beat James Jeffries against a whole nation. I genuinely think, as great a slugger as Joe was, that Jack Johnson could have beaten Joe Louis when he was 50 years old... Joe wouldnt have laid a full out punch on him in 50 rounds, let alone 15. __________________ "Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate, for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain without being uncovered." The Gospel of Thomas

11-13-2007, 06:27 AM	#15 (permalink)
Kurant Junkie Location: Don't worry about it.	Wow, Pernell Whitaker in the top 10 eh? And no Leonard? Whitaker to me was in his prime when he took the 87-0 Julio Chavez to a draw. Past that, his career to me wasn't a top 10 career of all time. And to me, Oscar would belong in that list before Whitaker. Oscar is the only fighter of our current generation that would even crack the top 10. I'm sure if I thought about it a little longer, he may not crack the top 12-15 though. But, it's 5 am, and I'm about to walk out the door. Other then that, switch Sugar Ray Robinson and Jack Johnson, and that's a quality list of great fighters, one that I can't disagree with much. I would probably have to throw ol' Rocky Marciano in there too.

12-08-2007, 12:02 PM	#16 (permalink)
Strange Famous follower of the child's crusade?	well, past he top 3 or 4 its subjective... everyone would have Sugar Ray Robinson and Muhammad Ali in the top 3, everyone would have Sam Langford in the top 10. Pernell was a contraversial choice.. I would have to pick a top 50 to rep everyone I wanted to. I think Hagler was the best of that quartet (Leanord, Duran, Hearns, Hagler) and I picked him, I wouldnt be violently against any of that 4 in the top 10 though. __________________ "Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate, for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain without being uncovered." The Gospel of Thomas