I hear he's in the next Bang Brothers video ...

I bet he knees Dirty Sanchez and breaks his ribs.

..............

A few questions, comments and observations.

Do you not think that boxers also look for work as bouncers before they "make it to the show"? Of course they do.

1-No more so than boxing, someone competing in MMA takes far less blows to the head.
2-The rules for MMA are not unified. However, it is still a sport that is evolving. The UFC is hardly classless (see Matt Hughes reaction to his loss to George St. Pierre), and unattractive and unmanly is subjective.
3-Uneducated B.S.
4-That's your opinion and you are entitled to it, however many think this is wrong.
5-Because clearly there have never been upsets or shocking outcomes in boxing.

So you want MMA and the Mixed Martial Artists that compete in it to be different sport. Surely those Basketball players should only kick the ball like a good soccer player does. After all they are clearly the same thing since both use balls and nets.

I agree that boxing requires skill, the nobility of boxing is long gone.
As far as your comment about wrestling. Sure anyone can wrestle, however to wrestle well it takes time and training. Anyone can put on gloves, learn the rules, step in to a ring and box. That doesn't mean they will be a good boxer.
*Edit* I assumed that you are talking about amateur wrestling the sport not pro wrestling ala WWE. If you were talking about WWE style pro wrestling, then I disagree that ANYONE can wrestle as it still requires a degree of training and physical prowess however it also isn't a sport. It's entertainment and yes almost anyone who is of average physical ability could learn the basics of pro wrestling.
Pride is dead, bought by the UFC. The UFC does not allow "soccer kicks to the head".
As far as the sport not taking off in England...
UFC 70: Nations Collide
Date: April 21, 2007
Venue: Manchester Evening News Arena
City: Manchester, England
Attendance: 15,114 (12,708 paid)
Total Gate: $2,628,472 (£1.3 million GBP)

UFC 75: Champion vs. Champion
Date: September 8, 2007
Venue: The O2
City: London, England
Attendance: 16,235
Total Gate: $2.7 million

You assume that a man on his back can not defend himself and this is incorrect. If a fighter is simply knocked down or taken down he is hardly defenseless. Some are far more dangerous on their back with their ability to submit than they are standing up striking but you seem to be unable to understand this. IF the fighter is unable to defend himself ,ie he is too dazed to defend because of a shot to the head, the fight is stopped.

Again, you assume that the man who is down is always defenseless. This is incorrect. Also most Mixed Martial Artists (or UFC "Brawlers" as you call them) have had some boxing training. However many of them do not use striking with fists as their primary focus many use grappling or kicks (while both are standing btw). Wrestling, boxing, and other Martial Arts all have a place in MMA.
Example - George St. Pierre.
Height 5 ft 10.5 in (1.79 m)
Weight 170 lb (77 kg)
Born May 19, 1981
Mixed martial arts record
Wins 15
By knockout - 5
By submission - 6
Losses 2
Trained in Kyokushin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kyokushin), Brazilian jiu-jitsu, Muay Thai, Wrestling (BTW he trains with the Canadian national team) and Boxing. Yes boxing has it's place in MMA however it's only one part of the training. Notice that GSP has KO'ed his opponent in 1/3 of his wins, and made them submit almost the same. As far as two losses one was against the then champion Matt Hughes who was GSP's idol and GSP has admitted he was starstruck and not ready to fight Hughes. His other was against a guy he didn't take seriously and as well as some personal issues that put him in a very bad head space. Since that loss he has looked dominant.
So why would he choose MMA over boxing? Well for one he has been training in martial arts since childhood not boxing. How would he do in boxing? If he dedicated himself to just boxing, probably quite well but would he be the best in his weight class? I don't know. Why? Because he has been training for something else for most of his life.
If GSP stepped into a boxing ring in 6 months would he be able defeat the champ of whatever weight class 170 lbs would put him in? Probably not because said champ has dedicated himself to Boxing whereas GSP uses boxing as one of his tools but not as the only one (nor even his primary).
If the same boxing champ stepped into the octagon against GSP it would be exactly the opposite with the boxing champ being outclassed in an environment he hasn't dedicated himself to.

A man who deliberately lays on the floor is not defenceless fine.

A man who is KNOCKED DOWN is defenseless, and the main issue with MMA as a sport is it allows a man who is knocked down (as opposed to taken down) to be pummelled.

If the sport had a simple rule change to say that strikes could only be thrown when both fighters were on their feet, and they when on the floor they could only grapple then most of the objections would be gone.

As kicks to the head of a grounded man have now been banned, perhaps MMA will move in this direction?

And I dont know why you keep bring up ear biting Jay. The point is that Tyson was disqualified for this. That is the proof that this is not allowed in boxing, he lost his title and his license for doing it.

As many have said before, this is simply not true.

You are confusing being knocked down with being knocked out. MMA rules state that the fight gets stopped if one fighter can no longer intelligently defend himself. Many many fights go to the ground, and the fighter that is initially taken down will win the fight. They are most certainly NOT defenseless. In fact, many fighters are even more dangerous on the ground and prefer to end things there. It's just a preference, and has nothing to do with manliness. I've also seen fights where one of the fighters (or both) will prefer to stay on their feet, and will deliberately wait to make the other man stand up. Again, just a preference that has more to do with strategy than the size of their cajones.

.............

Im sorry, you are simply wrong.

If someone is knocked down they will be dazed and hurt. I am not talking about people who deliberately fall down to avoid blows, but people who who are hit to the ground.

MMA could be fixed by the rule change that I suggested - no blows thrown when on the ground.

If some cowardly fighterer falls down to avoid the blows when they are not hurt... they can either be counted out or get up and fight - like taking a knee.

And if the wrestlers want to go for take downs they can, they just cant throw punches of kicks at people who are down.

Some people can fight better in the wrestling stage, I agree. But when someone is punched to the floor, they cannot defend themselves... sometimes the 3 seconds it takes the ref to jump in and stop a fight while a downed man is beaten will not be enough to save a life.

MMA needs to ditch the "extreme" marketing and decide its course, either as a sport or as a brawl.

I will always believe that boxing, by the queensbury rules, is the ultimate test of manliness.

But the first boxing champion of the world - James Figg - fought under rules something like MMA, but it was still understood that when a man was put down he was either allowed to take the count of get back up and fight once he could defend himself.

...

I think this whole thread has descended into people playing characters and not saying what they feel in an educated way... and I prolly started it....so I apologise for that.

I dont like MMA, for the reasons I think - through it all - I have stated.

Some people do like and feel passionate about it.

I think thats all cool and no one has been hurt in this whole thread, but it prolly is time to cool things down.

No sorry but you are wrong. You refuse to accept the difference between knocked down, and knocked out. If a fighter has his legs kicked out from under him is he dazed and defenseless? If he is knocked down and immediately goes into a defensive position is he defenseless? No. If a fighter IS dazed and unable to defend then the fight is stopped immediately because you must defend yourself at ALL times. Unlike boxing where you have a ten count to be able to gather yourself if you are knocked for a loop in MMA and unable to defend the fight is over. Period.
Also why should strikes only be thrown when standing? Many of the strikes thrown on the ground are body shots or light head shots with far less power than a strike while standing. So why throw them? So that the opponent will be forced to defend against that and leave themselves open to a submission.
Also the UFC has ditched the "extreme marketing" long ago. That's what almost killed the UFC was the total head in the ground attitude of the original owners. They refused to be sanctioned, they refused most rules, weightclasses etc and the UFC almost died because of it. The UFC now is nothing like the UFC then. They follow a set of rules that is approved by sanctioning bodies (in fact in most cases the very same sanctioning bodies as boxing) with penalties if said rules are not followed. Even some of the UFC's biggest opponents have accepted that the UFC is no longer the "human cock-fight" that Sen. John McCain once called it. McCain has since acknowledged the changes in MMA for the better and has been quoted as saying (sorry I can't find the article right now) that the sport has "grown up".

As to your earlier comments about it there never being the Mohammad Ali of MMA, how can you guess at this? If the sport continues to grow at the rate it is it will surpass boxing in popularity and it's mainstream knowledge continues to grow. Maybe the general public doesn't know who Matt Hughes is, but they know what the UFC is. Which is a far cry from what it was 5 years ago. 5 years ago MMA fighters would never be on the covers of major magazines, or featured on sports websites, or in newspaper sports sections.
Will there be a Mohammad Ali of the MMA world? Well there will only be one Ali. But will there be someone who is as well known as Ali? Perhaps. Remember the UFC is still young. It's easy for boxing fans to talk about the great champs of the past because boxing has been around for so long. The UFC has only been around for 14 years and has only been sanctioned for seven. I just wiki'd the list of current boxing champions. The only name I really recognized was Mayweather. I've heard of Klitschko before but couldn't pick him out of a lineup if you asked me. Not exactly inspiring there for the great sport of boxing.

I think the distinction is that in the majority of MMA fights, the match is not over when someone is knocked down. The disadvantage is real, but it's not an unfair way to fight. I think you can tell that by the fact that hardly any fights end within 30 seconds of a fighter going down. In fact, many times, the downed fighter holds on until the uend of the round, or even rallys and wins the fight.

MMA refs make the distinction between "knocked down" and unable to fight. Of course you can quote some instances in which that didn't happen, but you'll be finding the exceptions rather than the rule -- and those exceptions become rarer all the time.

Exactly.

This is the only non-constructive post you found in this thread? Guess posting about Dirty Sanchez and the Bang Brothers in an MMA and boxing thread counts as constructive now.

should i have quoted every non-constructive post instead of just picking the latest one? There are people in this thread that are discussing this without resorting to name-calling, if you can't join them then you can see yourself out.

................

I would tend to agree that the whole "EXTREME", "VIOLENCE", "DANGEROUS", etc..... needs to be dropped already, that was a marketing tool used when the fights were actually no holds barred, which eventually wound up hurting the sport. The marketing itself is what needs to change.

..........

Well 2008 looks to be a big year for both boxing and MMA. Boxing had a great 2007, MMA in general made decent strides towards mainstream acceptance. Any predictions for the upcoming year? Mayweather showing his face in MMA (as a promoter or fighter?), another MMA company landing big ppv deals, UFC finally getting a non-cable deal with cbs/nbc/abc, etc?

I think we're all over the actual "debate." It was a good 4-5 pages before it degraded into typical pub-speak/arguments. What are your opinions for the upcoming year for both sports?

Anyone catch the Fedor vs. Hong Man Choi fight on New Years Eve? Fedor was fuckin impressive against that 7'2" giant.

I caught it the other day, never realized how big 7'2 really is! Was really hoping to see a decent fight, especially with that kind of size/reach difference. But then I remembered Choi's record (of what, ONE MMA fight?) and ended up grunting Andre the Giant quotes when he tapped.

With that said, I'm really hoping he has a fight lined up with opponents who can actually put up a fight. (*cough COUTURE *cough BARNETT *cough) I'm hoping Cuban and his deep pockets can make his promotion a contender, cuz competition can only mean better fights/fighters.

I'm wondering if anyone can compare the Fedor/Choi match with an equivalent matchup in boxing? The big guy everyone considers champion going against an untested, mostly unknown fighter. But instead of a Rocky scenario, we get a TOTAL squash.

Klitschko vs Brewster #1 was a bit like that. As was Corrie Sanders vs Klitschko (Vladamir, not Vitali). Corrie Sanders was small and flabby, but, boy, does that man pack a punch.

I should have worded my original reply better. I was looking for "the champ" taking on "lesser" opponents, and just squashing them. In Fedor's case, it seems like his management is intentionally having him face lesser opponents just to keep making Fedor a monster. Its like they don't care about him proving to the world that he is better than everyone, just coasting on the reputation he had in Pride FC.

Thanks for the recommendations though, that Sanders fight was pretty damn exciting to watch! It reminded me of the recent Gonzaga vs CroCop match. Brewster/Klitschko #1 had a better finish though.

ever see the time Danny Williams fought for a world title???

was the worst contender for a world title I can remember, but will soon probably be outdone by Matt Skelton!

As far as MMA goes:

I'm expecting Cro-cop, Arlovski, Shogun, Brandon Vera and Wanderlei to get back on track.

I'm also expecting BJ Penn prove that he is still the best pure fighter in the world, and re-dedicate himself he lost sight of things after his stint in K-1 where he beat the Gracies and wound up fighting across every single weight class. When he came back to the UFC he expected to walk through GSP and Hughes (again). Then he wound up with a decision loss to GSP; one that would have been a draw were it not for the matter of the #1 contender slot. Then a loss to Hughes after he separated his rib cage in a scramble after stuffing Hughes' takedowns for two rounds.

Fedor v Randy is definitely going to happen next year in the final quarter of the year.

Paulo Filho will get his first loss this year, possibly move into the UFC, where he belongs. I think UFC is simply going to use the WEC as proving ground.

I can't say much about the Anderson and Hendo fight.

Machida will probably grind out a five round win against Rampage, because I don't think Rampage will be the one to figure his style out. if anyone does it will be either Hendo, Tito has a slightly better chance than 'Page. If it were the Tito of old... Hello decision win.

GSP will dominate 170 and probably have a fight of the year candidate whenever he meets Jon Fitch.

Roger Huerta will also have a good year, but he will lose at some point, either to Tyson Griffin or Frankie Edgar.




I really wish we could do away with MMA companies, and just use fighters as independents, but it would be too chaotic. I still say all fans should put our money together and buy an island which we hold events on once a month, Mortal Kombat style using the unified rules of combat... but with the Pride yellow card system.... I'll keep dreaming.


As far as boxing goes:

I am really sweet on Kelly Pavlik right now. Boxing needs a champion like him right now, I think we'll see more of the same from him.

B-hop and Calzaghe looks like it's going to be an excellent fight. I think B-hop may hang it up sometime in the near future.

Hopefully PBF stops being a bitch and fights Cotto, forgets his "MMA Career". HE can take his "break" after that. He's a giant draw, but it seems like most of the people I know watch him fight simply hoping they can see hi get KOd. He is an incredible technician and does deserve to be called the best pound for pound fighter in the world at the moment.

I'm not to big on HW boxing, especially since Lennox Lewis retired. I am however very pleased that the division seems to be ruled by the Eastern Europeans right now. I have always maintained that Eastern Europeans are probably the best natural fighters in the world. Whether it's MMA or Boxing, the Eastern Europeans are always very strong, powerful, intense, and more often than not exciting. I hope it continues this way.

I'm anxious to see how Ricky Hatton rebounds from his first loss, because you never know a true warrior until they lose.

I think Ricky Hatton was never as good as people thought. One of the problems of the alphabet era...you can hold a title and an unbeaten record, and not fight the really big fights.

Hatton is a tough fighter, and he is world class, but getting to 40-0 or whatever he did before PBF took him apart was flattering.

I would like to see PBF vs Cotto too... but I dont think anyone can call him a bitch in terms of as a fighter... he doesnt have anything to prove anymore.

Hopkins vs Calzaghe doesnt excite me that much. Calzaghe is over-rated in my opinion, and utterly classless as an individual... Hopkins is a warrior but he is getting old...

Heavyweight division is desolate to me.

Enzo vs Haye will be an exciting fight and generate a lot of hype in the UK, they are both brave and tough.. but you cant shake the sneaking suspicion that if you dug Jonny Nelson out of retirement he could whip them both with a weeks gap inbetween the fights.

What boxing needs, desperately, is one title per weight. This shouldnt be a hard concept for all the people involved to grab.

One champion, one man who is the greatest in his class.

There are some good fights between featherweight and middleweight.

Also, what is the point of the cruiserweight division? I didnt like it when it was at 190, but now its extended to 200... its a joke. If you weight 200 lbs, you are a heavyweight.

I agree, but saying that he's not goign to tak the fight and take a year or two off, to then decide to jump into an mma career is absurd.

Yeah... it would be GREAT for MMA, but I cant see what it will do for him.

The thing is, PBF will go down as one of the greats, whatever he does.

He has enough money now, whatever he does.

He is never going to be loved, until he gets whipped, and then comes back.

So... I guess this is why he cant see the way forwards now. Cotto is the best fight out there. I kind of think he should take it, or really go ahead and quit and NOT come back.

The other option is Hatton rematch, which might be the richest fight out there if you put it in Manchester... but has no sporting justification - he beat him well first time and would do the same again.

The MMA adventure really does nothing to his legacy as a boxer, and he could be better paid fighting brave and game, but limited Englishmen... but it would be a tremendous fight for MMA, and if they could swing the two way fight I spoke about (1 boxing fight, 1 MMA fight) - I think it would be saleable... PBF would win the boxing fight at a canter against the brawler, and would be an outsider with a genius' chance in the MMA fight... you could sell it really well. But if I was him I wouldnt do it. What does getting beaten in round 2 by an arm bar by a wrestler prove? And if he does pull it off and beat an MMA champ... it doesnt mean much in the boxing world.

The worst case is he goes in and whips a couple of no-hoper, unrated MMA fighters, and then goes back to boxing... which would mean nothing at all.

that is definitely the way I see it happening. I think he'd probably try to get the rules changed in his favour