"boxing vs. mma" debate
 

i've been paying attention to this debate in general as a former boxing fan that has got with the times and now follows mma.

before i compare the two, i have a couple questions.... why do you have to pick one? both are combative sports that men spend months and lifetimes training for, and both types of athlete deserve the respect due for that kind of commitment. even if it's not your cup of tea, there's no reason to dismiss mma and make veiled comments about how it's fighters aren't "real men". so why do it? the only reason i can think of is sour grapes over the decline of boxing's popularity, but THAT is no one's fault but boxing for 1) failing to deliver good fighters and consistently good fights and 2) diluting itself to the point that there's no clear cut champ.

ok, on to the comparison. here's some points to think about.

have you noticed the difference from when a former boxer gives an interview and when randy couture gives an interview? mma fighters just don't come off as "punch drunk" or slightly brain-dead, regardless of having done their sport in equal time and measure. I believe the reason for this is that mma offers about a dozen ways to win, while boxing is 100% entirely about punching someone in the head as hard and often as you can. you can call it "the sweet science" all you'd like but i'd have to say it's effect on it's participants is more barbaric than what you've labelled as the barbarism in mma.

next up... one thing i absolutely love about mma that you will NEVER see in boxing is the mutual respect that these fighters have for each other. i'm not saying mma doesn't have its share of arrogant asshats, but far more often than not, both fighters in an mma fight will embrace after a tough fight in mutual admiration of what they both just went through. being able to go up to a guy after a fight and say, "great job man, you just kicked the shit outta me!".... THAT is honor.

just some food for thought :D

I'm at the way bottom of the fighter food chain and train in MMA with world champion fighters four nights a week.

Observation:

Plenty of "boxing" involved in MMA. I've been punched in the skull by trained boxers plenty of times. Turns out it hurts! Boxing is just a type of martial art. It does not necessarily make a type of person (boxer). It gets blended in with everything else in a MMA fight. The boxer is limited in his tactics but is typically a master of the few things he does throw. I've head-kicked and choked out plenty of guys who were more experienced stand-up fighters than me... and I really suck at grappling. I try to keep myself 60/40 with stand up vs. ground training.

Nobody smart wants to go to the ground, but you should know how to deal with it when you're down there.

Gladiatorial games live on: MMA is the new boxing.

Spefically, it is abhorent for me to strike an opponent when they are down.

This is an utterly cowardly act in my opinion.

For this reason I basically hold MMA in contempt. I am sure that a number of the martial arts particular people use require a great deal of skill, but I have absolutely no respect for any sport where it is legal to strike a fallen opponent.

Boxing is a sport: a noble art of two men placing their strength and skill and courage against each other. MMA is simply violence and brutality.... likening it to the Roman Gladiatorial times is a very accurate metaphor in my opinion.

Yes, violence is an element of boxing, but MMA is violence virtually unrestrained by rules, respect for your opponent, or any concept of conducting oneself as a gentleman.

I dont care how skilled these MMA fighters are, or how powerful... I will always say that any man who strikes his opponent while they are down is a coward through and through.

You sir, obviously have things backwards. MMA requires a hell of a lot more skill than boxing due to even the simple fact that you need more than one skill set to survive.

I rarely see boxers congratulate the others in their win or even attempt to be humble when they lose.

To say that MMA has no rules is pretty fucking lame. For instance, if memory serves me correctly, a person cannot strike a downed opponent if they are on one knee. They also cannot knee to the back of the head. I'm sure Crompsin or others can expand or correct me on those rules.

Boxing is dead .. and quite frankly boring. It was ruined by bad promoters and big purses and by the boxers themselves who have no class and no real talent. Boxing may be a skill, but in the world of MMA .. it's one simple skill that won't get you very far.

i think you're missing 3 important points when you get hung up on attacking someone when they're down.

1) fighting on the ground is a major % of many martial art styles. some brazilian jujitsu fighters are MORE dangerous on their back than their feet. wrestling, whether greco-roman or eastern in origin is all based on takedowns and controlling someone once there. To judge them based on boxing rules as if they are cheating is misplaced. it's not cowardly if its an available avenue in the rules and expected by anyone jumping in the ring going in.

2) roman gladiator's had all sorts of pointy things they'd stick each other with. you're comparing something ancient that you'd have untrained slaves participate in to something that is modern that people dedicate their lives training for.

3) you're really offering up a self-defeating arguement when you, as a boxing advocate, bring up respect for your opponent or conducting yourself as a gentleman. the boxers of today are the biggest babies i've seen of any athletes ever. they can't even get through a weigh-in without a publicity inspired brawl. with mma on the other hand, you'll see the fighters embrace after their match and give props on the microphone to their opponent 9 outta 10 times.... they are the picture of class and respect for their sport.

Neither boxing nor mma are are fantastic, in and of themselves. It really comes down to the matchups. If you put two people together who's styles make for entertaining fights, then you have a winner, regardless of venue.

I've seen a lot of great fights and a lot of bad ones. This applies both to boxing and mma. I'm glad they are both options for my entertainment, because only one option would be no option at all.

MMA seems far less contrived to me than boxing. I don't care about points...they might as well be whapping each other with flyswatters. Even in MMA, I want to see a fight finished, not go to decision.

UFC RULES, AS APPROVED BY THE NEVADA STATE ATHLETIC COMMISSION - JULY 23, 2001

Weight classes:
Lightweight - over 145 lbs. to 155 lbs.
Welterweight - over 155 lbs. to 170 lbs.
Middleweight - over 170 lbs. to 185 lbs.
Light Heavyweight - over 185 lbs. to 205 lbs.
Heavyweight - over 205 lbs. to 265 lbs.

Bout duration:
All non-championship bouts shall be three rounds.
All championship bouts shall be five rounds.
Rounds will be five minutes in duration.
A one-minute rest period will occur between each round.

Fouls:
1. Butting with the head.
2. Eye gouging of any kind.
3. Biting.
4. Hair pulling.
5. Fish hooking.
6. Groin attacks of any kind.
7. Putting a finger into any orifice or into any cut or laceration on an opponent.
8. Small joint manipulation.
9. Striking to the spine or the back of the head.
10. Striking downward using the point of the elbow.
11. Throat strikes of any kind, including, without limitation, grabbing the trachea.
12. Clawing, pinching or twisting the flesh.
13. Grabbing the clavicle.
14. Kicking the head of a grounded opponent.
15. Kneeing the head of a grounded opponent.
16. Stomping a grounded opponent.
17. Kicking to the kidney with the heel.
18. Spiking an opponent to the canvas on his head or neck.
19. Throwing an opponent out of the ring or fenced area.
20. Holding the shorts or gloves of an opponent.
21. Spitting at an opponent.
22. Engaging in an unsportsmanlike conduct that causes an injury to an opponent.
23. Holding the ropes or the fence.
24. Using abusive language in the ring or fenced area.
25. Attacking an opponent on or during the break.
26. Attacking an opponent who is under the care of the referee.
27. Attacking an opponent after the bell has sounded the end of the period of unarmed combat.
28. Flagrantly disregarding the instructions of the referee.
29. Timidity, including, without limitation, avoiding contact with an opponent, intentionally or consistently dropping the mouthpiece or faking an injury.
30. Interference by the corner.
31. Throwing in the towel during competition.

Ways To Win:
1. Submission by:
Physical tap out.
Verbal tap out.
2. Technical knockout by the referee stopping the contest.
3. Decision via the scorecards, including:
Unanimous decision [all judges pick the same fighter as the winner].
Split decision [One judge picks one fighter, the other two judges pick the other fighter].
Majority decision [all judges pick the same fighter as the winner].
Draw, including:
Unanimous draw.
Majority draw.
Split draw.
4. Technical decision.
5. Technical draw.
6. Disqualification.
7. Forfeit.
8. No contest.


Referee may Restart the round:
If the fighters reach a stalemate and do not work to improve position or finish.

So - this all proves that punching an opponent when they are down is legal in this "sport" or legalized pub car park brawl as I would call it.

MMA approximates fighting for survival, whereas Boxing amounts to fighting for show. There are NO rules in knock-down drag-out street fighting, and the fewer rules you have the more closely you approximate the skills necessary for such.

I believe that if you're going to fight, you might-as-well fight like its your last fight, so I'd prefer MMA over boxing.

The points are relatively moot as I don't enjoy either; I don't get any sort of enjoyment out of watching two people attack one another, whether there are rules in place or not.

Going off the other thread, I still cannot get past this question I posed.

Mike Tyson in the cage.

I've only the last few years been getting into MMA, mostly UFC as anything Pride it seems I view is usually dated. At any rate I have a fairly decent idea of what goes on outside of super technical jargon.

I just think that if you put Mike Tyson, the primed Mike Tyson (his current state with his knee would result in a quick defeat), in the cage without boxing gloves he would murder. I'm basing this off of my limited knowledge of fighters which again is mostly limited to the UFC, but if Tyson fought Heavy Weight I think his odds would increase almost.

The heavy weights by and large seem to be, at least in my opinion, some of the least technical fighters in the sport. The only advantage could be guys who have very solid ground skills, but at the same time Tyson, or any good boxer I think have different agility and quicker feet. Also Tyson would be equally as strong as anybody in the UFC or Pride (if not stronger), so it would come down to technical situations.

But in the very least since the only advantage is probably going to be on the ground, you still have to approach Mike, and he would end up punching a hole through you and eating your soul. Plus in UFC his elbow throws would be legal, kicks would be almost useless against him on account of his speed, plus not calling any MMA fighter a daisy or anything, but I think it is fairly safe to assume that the Knock out power of MIke Tyson, or most elite upper weight division boxers is far superior to anything a MMA fighter is throwing.

I do however think Floyd Mayweather would get worked.

Sorry about my fantasy post here. I've just always been enthralled by Tyson, I often ask if he ever killed anybody when he was in prison, because I'm sure dudes were trying to fuck with him.

So, are you saying that if you get into a fight, if you knock someone down and they aren't knocked out, you won't do anything until they get up again? What about if you both fall down and are tangled up? You just tell the guy to hold on until you both get up? BULLSHIT. I seriously hope you don't get into any fights because you'll be handed an ass beating.

Considering that the majority of the time both fighters are on the ground when the striking is being done in MMA I don't think it's exactly fair to call it cowardly. The fact here is that they are two different sports that employ some similar skill sets but very different rules. If you like one then fine, but don't call the other cowardly when it's evident that most of us wouldn't last 5 seconds with most of the people who are actually involved in the sport.

Agreed.

I'm too old school to enjoy watching MMA. My friends tried to get me into watching it back in the early days of UFC when folks like Gracie and Shamrock were laying opponents to waste, but I was stuck in my boxing ways. My nephew loves watching it though.

If anything, I think a boxer could survive in the UFC, but it would take him some time to adapt. A UFC fighter will come at a boxer from much more angles, using weapons other than their fists. A boxer will have to adjust to still recieving blows when he goes down instead of getting a standing 8-count to clear his head. In essence, a boxer will have to overcome the 'restrictions' of his sport to adapt to the MMA, amost like how an NBA player would have to adjust to the tighter officiating, trapezoidal lane, and other rules of FIBA play.

Aside from that, it's a matter of culture between boxing and MMA, and all it takes is the greed of a few shameless promoters to destroy the goodwill that exists among MMA fighters like they did with boxing.

And yeah, I think Mike Tyson as a MMA fighter would've been absolutely devastating. I gotta dig up the pictures of what he did to Mitch Green in a street fight.

Guys like Jason Tankson would kick him three times before he got close with a fist.

Speed is relative.

I'll agree with this, and it may already be happening. With the disappearance of Pride (which IMO was WAY better than UFC) it leaves the door wide open for bad promotion and boredom because there's no real competition in the mainstream for the ratings.

As far as the Tyson debate goes, I think too many people think that devastating power accounts for easy wins. There are tons of UFC, Pride and the other organizations fighters that would destroy Tyson before he could unleash his power. Now I'm sure Tyson would be intimidating and even win some fights because I'm sure he's been in quite a few street fights, but it's alot more than basic street fighting when it comes to MMA. Skills are required.

.....

I agree with skill arguments.

But I think that kicks would not phase a fighter like Tyson.

Tyson being at 5'9" has to step in to anything, no way someone will get off three kicks on him, and I think one kick is dangerous because on my bet, one won't stop him. Said kick would put a fighter off balance against him, and the bottom line is boxers have far more devastating punch power then MMA's if you are talking about skill.

You kick Tyson on approach, you better put him off or break his leg, because if he is stepping into kick range I'm betting he is getting winding up to throw some haymakers.

Strange Famous, I'm sorry but you are talking about fighting like someone who has never trained in a practical martial art. The only honorable way to settle a dispute is to avoid fighting. In a real fight, honor stops short of the first punch. When someone wants to hurt you or your loved ones, you have to commit to putting them in a position from which they cannot do you harm. If that means striking them until they are unconscious, or kicking them when they're down, groin shots or worse, it's all a part of self-defense. It's only when they are no longer a threat and you continue to attack that you cross the line of self-defense (at least in a legal sense).

What I like about MMA is it incorporates a lot of different styles and skill sets into one fight. It's as close as you can get to a real fight without throwing rules out the window (and still be able to televise it). As a practical style, MMA practicioners are trained to attack and defend on the ground; they are far from defenseless (as high_jinx said, BJJ fighters can be even more dangerous on their backs than on their feet). If you want to talk in terms of honor, attacking a defenseless person is dishonorable. Being on the ground does not necessarily mean that someone is defenseless.

There's really no honor lost in MMA, since it's all a part of the rules. Both fighters know what they're getting into when they step into the ring, and if they get taken to the ground and beaten into submission (which I have seen less of lately as the fighters become more well-rounded and improve their ground skills), it's their own fault for dropping their guard or being unprepared. If someone stepped into boxing ring and tried to "ground 'n pound" their opponent, they wouldn't get far before the ref puts a stop to it, not because boxing is more noble than MMA, but because the rules are different.

As for Tyson vs MMA, if I were a heavyweight fighter with a lot of confidence, I would get close, work the knees and try to get him on the ground ASAP. I wouldn't want to go blow for blow with him unless if I were built like a redwood. One could expect Tyson's stand-up to be phenomenal, but without a lot of training he would be more vulnerable to submission techniques than a knockout punch. From a strategic point of view, the goal is finding your opponent's weakness and using it to your advantage; in MMA there are just more variables to consider. If you are fighting a skilled opponent on their terms, or through some one-sided, self-imposed concept of honor, you are likely dooming yourself to an ass-whoopin.

i think tyson, although he hit like a truck in his prime, would face the same result any boxer would if they jumped right into an octagon.

1) boxer flows some flurry's.

2)mma guy sweeps or grapples to a takedown.

3)mma guy out wrestles and either submits or ground n' pounds boxer.

4) mma guy wins.

sure, tyson's allowed to throw bows, but he's never trained with elbows. he's also got little to no "takedown defense" training. you have to know how and have practiced to sprawl just right when you're getting a bum's rush to the ground. survive his first and only flurry, and you got a sure-win as mma guy.

I'm better at boxing so I'm going with that. MMA would be more fun to watch if they did more endurance training. Actually both would. 3 minutes in and they look like John Goodman after a marathon. *yawn*

They just go to a commercial break.

huh. wonder why? Maybe because it's alot more taxing on the body to be tangled up struggling for position than just standing around throwing a punch or two every minute. Or.. the fact that in MMA it's actually against the rules to not engange or work.

Speaking from experience, being struck tends to be very taxing, HOWEVER that's no excuse. I used to be able to fight for a good 15 minutes before getting even a little fatigued (assuming I wasn't knocked out).

Nice. What guy with any martial arts training fights for 15 minutes, though?

I like full on sparring with people who are better than I am.

Wanna fight sometime?

I had to stop. My heart condition made it a massive risk, and someone told my cardiologist about it. He read me the riot act a few years back. Ever since then it's just been light sparing, or "pussy fighting" and exercising.

ok if we cant have a physical fight, then i think a verbal stouch is on the cards..

Will Vs Cromp

please..no Yo' Mamma Jokes

i did boxing for a while and trained with and was trained by some of australias current champions and current world title contenders.

as much as i love boxing though, i think the mma guys would out do boxers without a doubt. even tyson in his prime. although a foreman in his prime would have been a much harder opponent cos of his size and sheer strength.

Yes, if I was in a fight, in the street, and knocked a man down, I would give him the chance to get to his feet and fight on, or stay down.

It is surprising to me that the concept of behaving like a gentleman is so foriegn to some peple.

As for the constant argument about skill - I am sure that knife fighting requires a greta deal of skill to do succesfully, this is not an honorable sport either. MMA *IS* a street fight, it is a brawl between a couple lor louts - by all means they might be louts who are skillful in violence.

Boxing is a sport, MMA is simply a brawl.

So you prefer conforming to some completely arbitrary definition of gentleman to perhaps winning? Perhaps if you were really a gentleman you wouldn't fight at all?

That's a pretty foolish stance to take in a street fight, unless if you are so confident in your ability to continuously knock him down until he does concede. Foolish at best, and extremely dangerous at worst.

As I said before, I think you are mistaking the rules for boxing for a sense of honor. The boxers don't strike each other when they get knocked down because that is the goal of the fight; once your opponent is down, the only thing left to do is let the ref count it out, or wait for him to get back up and try to knock him down again. In MMA, knocking someone out is only one of the ways to win, and when it does happen it's much like boxing. If someone gets clearly knocked out, the ref will automatically separate the fighters, but if they just lose their balance or get taken to the ground, it's all a part of the game and the fight continues until there is a knockout, submission or concession. In a real fight, there's no ref to get between you and count to ten, and there's no victor declared when someone falls down.

Being a boxer doesn't make one a gentleman, and being an MMA fighter doesn't make one a lout; let's not confuse rules with values.

So sorry.. I hope you have good medical insurance. That is the dumbest thing I've ever heard of. You yourself even admit that a street fight has no rules.. so .. that would include any preconceived notion of "gentlemanliness". You knock someone down and they aren't knocked the fuck out..and they are going to be more pissed off than they were before.. .. you're fucked. Extremely stupid idea.

I fail to see how you can consider one form of fighting a gentleman's sport and another a brawl for louts. You ignore the rules and basics of the very sport that you argue against because you simply think that there is some chivalry in letting someone back up. They are two different sports with two very different styles of rules.. why is that so hard to understand?

I wanna fight Strange Famous now.

...

Me? I can't wait until America becomes so bloodthirsty that they need live action sword and bludgeon fights to focus their attention between commercials.

Perhaps there are different standards in different places.

For me, conducting myself as an Englishman still matters, and I would expect the same from any hypothetical person Im supposed to fight.

How people behave in other places, I cannot speak for. Where I am from people are raised to fight with fists and to behave as men rather than as beasts.

And a gentleman, of course, only fights over a matter of honour.

Really? I dont know you and am surprised you have such a feeling for me.

But I dont hide where I am, you may look me up on facebook anytime and see my home address - perhaps it is easier for you to say such things on the internet than to a real life person though?

No offense, but you have no idea what you're on about. As someone who fought at a high level (including fighting a World Champion, albeit long before he ever became champ) boxing is far, far more taxing than that. The training is, at the highest levels, extreme - you punch, you move, you get hit ... worst of all is when you miss (that's tiring as anyone who has ever chased a faster fighter around the ring will attest, as George Foreman will attest after Ali pulled the Rope a Dope on him).

Having said that, I have little doubt that the best MMA fighters would defeat the best boxers simply due to having more options to attack and defend at their disposal. I do have to say that the average MMA fighter's stand up ability is pretty poor, but then, they do concentrate a lot more on ground fighting. And some of the conditioning of the MMA fighters is reminiscent of "Tough Man" contests (e.g., beer bellies) - but certainly, most of the top fighters show up in good condition, and I think the silly Tank Abbot days are long gone.

I've never typed in Facebook in any browser. Have no desire to kill what few braincells I have left.

...

We'd just MMA fight. Until someone submits. I'm an honorable person.

Training to fight is for fun.

Maybe you should take up karate, StrangeFamous.

Fighting is fighting... doesn't mean people have to get hurt too bad.

id ahve to agree with high thief. for those that have trained boxing before, it is one of the hardest types of training ive ever done (and ive done a lot of training in my days). most people wont go 2 rounds without doubling over, let alone one round with a half decent fighter.

but like highthief said, mma fighters would out do boxers because of their attacking options. without a doubt, if mma wasnt also a ground sport, i think karate and boxing fighters would out do the mma fighters.

but thos are the rules of the game.. i have no probs watching either/or.

strange.. one of my best friends comes from ipswich and hes very anti-violence, so it must be the 'fine english gentlemen' mentality in you that makes u tick that way.

however.. street fights have no rules. as long as the guy isnt going to die, id make sure he's finished off. its a survival of the fittest and its in humans innate nature to reduce that danger. if it means making sure someone is knocked out..so be it

eh, isn't mma more natural?

seems like it to me. I dunno.

Some guys tried to get me in to that but I decided I like having all my teeth.

me and crom still have to go rounds though, just cuz he wants me so bad /wink

as far as "sportsmanship" when fighting in a street fight.

chances are, if someone is trying to fight me in the street they are going against my wishes to leave me alone. I'm very good about giving people at least 3 opportunities to back down from a fight, tell them its not a good idea, that it's not worth it.

I get so uncontrollably amped with adrenaline when violence breaks out that i'm involved in. I shake like a lunatic, I dunno what it is, it's scary though. But if I felt like the guy was spitting threats that were towards my wellbeing, my life, or a loved one, I spare nothing, I'll take out your eyes, I'll bite, ill break, ill suffocate. I will do what it takes to make the other person give up any hope at all of ever winning against me to the point of making an example.

I've only had to do this once and it was the worst feeling ever. I don't mind fighting for fun, I used to box around with an old friend of mine, we were kids and we'd stuff toilet paper in our mouths for padding and beat each other until we saw red. I remember once taking it to the "MMA" level though because he gave me like these big arsed heavy boxing gloves, and he got these small tight ones. My punches were like those bullets in super mario brothers, slowoooowwww

meanwhile he's just zipping around and beating me silly, i got tired of that so i jumped to tackle him and hold him down and start pummeling him, but he ducked, and I went head1st in to the corner of an 8-track player that was about waist high to most people.
went right behind my upper lip and in to the gums. My teeth were in tact though :) man, i bled like a stuck pig.

then I got up and took my gloves off and went after my buddy, who took his gloves off and we went to punch eachother at the same time and broke our pinky fingers.

it was such a ridiculous scenario....

I still owe him a bloody one, lol

I'm pretty sure that muy thai fighters often train just as hard as boxers.

shauk,

the adrenalin in a street fight is different to the adrenalin in a boxing match. you dont shake uncontrollably in the ring.

its a more controlled environment in the ring, and your survival isnt in question (most times anyways). iguess the adrenalin is released in a constant flow rather than in one huge spurt.

would have loved to see the comedy show with ure friend though. would have made a great movie

I'm not saying that boxing isn't tough training and that they aren't fit, I'm just saying that I think MMA training is more difficult.

Muay Thai fighters are probably the most bad ass fighters out there and the most fit.

As far as behaving like an Englishman..wtf is up with that statement? I guess all the hooligans forget to be Englishmen eh?

I think that by the "behaving like an englishman" comment he probably means that instead of kicking his opponent whilst down he would send a contingent of soldiers to occupy his opponent's land, cultivate a caustic sense of distrust and hatred between his opponent's family members whilst siphoning off all of his opponent's land's economic value.

:expressionless: :D

Over 30 fouls, Stoppages for cuts, and the ability to say to the ref "I can't see" for abotu a minute of stoppage is not very unrestrained. Striking on the ground is inevitableand not all fighters finsih that way, BJ Penn and Anotnio Minotauro Noguiera can get you on the ground and finish you without ever throwing a punch.

Training in grappling is far mroe tiring. You are right. I used to box and am now learning muay thai. and I have no problem sparring four or five 5 minute rounds. But when I grapple with my wrestling and ju-jitsu buddies, I'm basically worn after one round. A lot more energy is wasted pushing people off of you or trying to hold someone down than people think.

Watch Sean Sherk and Fedor Emelianenko train and talk to me abotu taxing. The training for most is no different, some people parodize their triaing a bit more. Sparring is done in the same fashion but incorporates kicks and take-down defense as well. I've done both, and they are both not fun at all, but they are so worth it.

I'm personally a big fan of both sports and was ecstatic this year when Pavlik destroyed Taylor, because Boxing needs more fighters like him, not dancers who throw 3 punches a round. I cheered through the Gatti-Ward trilogy just like everyone else, and I was abhorred at the De La Hoya-Mayweather "fight to save boxing" just as everyone was.

The point is boxing doesn't need to be saved, it needs to be changed. Not the art, but the pollitics. The ranking system, bribes, dives, and multiple weight class championships are horrible for the sport.

MMA will be on that same level at some day, to think that it will not, would be out-right foolish. Dana White will become the Don King of MMA eventually, just like Tito Ortiz is already the Floyde Mayweather (speaking in terms of attitude of course).

Boxing is a martial art, and is used in MMA as well, Alessio Sakara a UFC 205er was a boxing champion in Italy, and now trains here in Miami with Boca Olivera. Fedor Emelianenko the #1 p4p fighter in the world trained in boxing as well. It is a tool which people need to utilize.

As far as respect goes, there are rivalries that will not be resolved ( course Tito Ortiz is involved in many of them). But for a real look at how the true athletes reslove their issues look at the last Rich Franklin v. Anderson Silva match. In rich's hometown, Silva was getting booed for destroying Rich a second time. Rich instantly grabbed his microphone and told the crowd not to boo him because he is an amazing warrior and an even better person. That to me impressed me more than anything.

The problem with MMA is not the sport itself (yet) the athletes. It's the casual fans. The one's who do only watch for violence, they do exist. People how know nothing about ju-jitsu, submission wrestling, sambo, judo, etc. The same people who boo fighters like Renzo Gracie, Sean Sherk, Andrei Arlovski, Yushin Okami, etc... and champion Chuck Liddell for refusal to taking the fight to the ground for a submission victory. I've met several fo them at my local UFC bars, they are the ones that boxing purists point out. The true fans respect damn-near all fighters and support the sport and anyone involved at all costs.

Given time, maybe the two will be able to co-exist. For now, however boxing feel threatened because people would rather spend 45 dollars an a UFC ppv thab a Boxing ppv. The purists begin the insults and the sheep follow. Prompting the MMA fans to fire back, and their sheep to follow as well. Aside from a select few, the athletes have a mutual respect for one another:

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I have been forced to watch a few "MMA" fights, and I admit that I have only seen a limited amount, but hardly any of the fights I saw featured anyone who could actually throw a clean punch.

Most of them did not seem to be actually know how to punch... the reason is clear, because in the rules of that game (ie - all out fighting bar a few exceptions like eye gouging) the most valuable tactis is to trip someone up, then bend a joint the wrong way so they have to submit. This is how nearly all the fights I saw ended, because it is the easiest way to win.

PLUS, anyone that CAN box, WOULD box because there is a lot of money and prestige for people who excel in it, while MMA is a minority "sport".

MMA is getting more popular for sure.

But go anywhere in the world, and say names like Muhammad Ali, Sugar Ray Robinson, Jack Dempsey, Joe Louis... people know them. The same can hardly be said about the MMA brawlers.... they are less weel known that WWF wrestlers. It might have a loyal minority fan base, but it is not into popular culture.

So... this point is just about those who say that these MMA people are so much tougher than boxers. It is a different sport... it is simply a fight with a couple of things outlawed. There is no MMA champion today who could compete for a world title in boxing and last 6 rounds. I guarantee this. By the same standards, boxers arent wrestlers, and if they had to fight someone who just tripped them up and put them in an arm lock, they might find it hard too.

I personally prefer to watch the sweet science to a scrap with little skill other than the skill to inflict harm. Perhaps some people DO prefer the all out style of MMA. Some people prefer all the drama of WWF too....

There will NEVER be a Muhammad Ali of MMA.

In fact, there will never even be a Frank Bruno or Henry Cooper of MMA.

Most boxing matches are boring. Most MMA matches are not.

Here endeth the debate.

And some people watch TV because books are "boring"

Stating your subjective opinion of something is not the same thing as a statement of fact.

Logical fallacy. Just because you aren't doing something doesn't mean you can't do it. And not everyone is in it for the money.

And you know this...how? There are already MMA fighters who have had very successful careers and are/were considered among the greatest of all time.

I wouldn't be surprised if more people could name one of the UFC champs than one of the current heavyweight boxing champs.

Other than Strange Famous not knowing what he is talking about, what is this thread about?

Of course a UFC fighter couldn't hang with a championship boxer in the boxing ring. But niether could a boxer hang with an mma fighter in the octagon. They are two different sports, and comparing them is like comparing apples and oranges.

Strange: just because you don't "get" something doesn't make it any less viable. UFC is THE fastest growing sport in the world right now. It is huge, and not remotely close to being a "minority sport," as you call it.

Just because you don't know about the rules doesn't mean they aren't there.

And once mma has been around, on television, for as long as boxing has, then your comparisons will make at least a little bit of sense.

Statements like: "There will never be a Muhammad of mma..." etc...etc...are meaningless, obviously. Especially coming from someone with such an obviously biased viewpoint. If you followed the sport even remotely, you'd know that it already has a few "Muhammedesqe" figures, who have dominated their divisions for long periods of time.

Check out Anderson Silva

Re response to "boxing is far more taxing than that":


I wish people would read the context of the original comment. I never said that boxers train so much harder than MMA fighters, despite a few of the fat MMA fighters we've ALL seen.

The original comment was in response to someone saying boxing amounts to dancing around and throwing a punch every minute or two. I was telling that ignorant person that boxing and it's associated training is much harder than that.

My mistake.

And Spencer Fisher.

I cannot name any MMA fighters, and I would bet you that nobody who works at my company (70 employee's mostly telesales and admin, 50/50 male/female) could either.

That said, there might not be many of them who could name one of the heavyweight champions of the world... but most of them would have heard of Ricky Hatton (for example)

And this proves...what? I could also come up with a crowd of friends/associates who couldn't name any current, relevent boxers. But many of them have heard of Chuck Liddell or Randy Couture, for example.

Yes I'm the ignorant person here. I mean.. who would have guessed I was just using an over-exaggeration of the sport? Poeple aren't sarcastic. It's ok though.. I don't know what I'm talking about.. I just happen to have been involved in both sports.. and have several friends who train with top class talent on a daily basis and could be possibly in contract talks with UFC. No biggie.. I'm just an ignorant fuck :rolleyes:

We all know that both sports require a heavy amount of training. We all know what boxing has become. With the exception of the Mexican circuit, I don't ever see passion in the boxing rings anymore. It's just simply do what you have to do to cash your check. I have found it so boring in the last 9-10 years it's pathetic. This is why I found MMA and one reason I find it inherently better. There seems to be more passion and desire in that sport.. I would much rather watch a sport that had passionate players than cry-babies who took a hit from a bad promoter..

this sounds like a man who has never grappled before in his life.

there is so much technique in the ground game that you do not comprehend. just as much technique as there is in boxing.

now mma fighters have to contend with both. tell me there is no skill there.

how do you know wine is sweet unless you drink it. never say there is no skill in something you do not do.

as a wrestler i am personally offended that you would take my art (and grappling is an art) and trivialize it in such simple terms.

SF your homework for tonight is to find someone as big and as strong as you and try to trip them up and arm lock them while they are punching you. tell us what happens

I think the one of the tightest shows on TV is Human Weapon on the History Channel.

Strange you for sure would learn so much by watching it. Whether it is the original MMA Greeco Pancrasion(sp) fighting all the way through Muy Thai in Thailand, or Krav Maga in Israel.

An assumed risk cannot by nature equate to an unfair blood bath as you atest. If I step into a cage with a tiger I am not going to hold it against him for clawing my throat, its natural. All the same stepping into the ring with a nin-jitsu guy he will dominate the fight on the ground. A Muy Thai guy will kick my leg and probably crush any future hopes of my MCL. But knowing that is part of the rules and doesn't make it dishonorable.

And I hate bringing it up again, but anyone who has been in an actual fight knows that any sense of honor goes out the window once you go into survival mode. Fighting some gabroni at the bar and making sure he cannot hurt you is night and day compared to taking someone to the mat in MMA.

******************************

Also the point of skill has been brought up...

Boxers do not harness or utilize much skill out side of a simple discipline. Bob, duck, weave... jab, hook, upper cut. They are phenominal athletes, endurance and muscles I am not belittling that. They are one dimensional, it is natural to throw fists.

MMA you can't just berserk because you will be completely unguarded and exposed lest you drop your opponent. MMA is a strategic sport, thats why they have to utilize such a vast array of disciplines.

**********************************

Also anybody who cares or likes this shit should watch Fight Science that was done by the National Geographic Channel, shit is ridiculous. And go figure that although boxing at its peak performance can delivers up to 1000 pounds of impact force it was out done by tae kwon do kicks, and most importantly the Muy Thai knee.

Excellent post, man. Very concise.

When you make an overtly ignorant statement, don't get offended when people think you're ignorant. It's your own fault.

:shakehead:

Human Weapon is great.

Human Weapon is a sweet show, just watched the one on Krav Maga, that was my favourite one so far.

MMA has a fringe following in the US.

It is not a world "sport"

Of course, I understand that some of you Americans dont see the second part, or dont really get the difference.

Muhammad Ali was not the most dominant as a boxer... he was one of the best, but not the best and lost to Norton and Frazier in his prime and was badly beaten by Foreman... the point is that there will never be an MMA brawler who has 1/10th of the impact on the culture of this world that Ali did.

The greatest boxer ever was probably Sugar Ray Robinson or Jack Johnson... both would - in an equal situation - whip any man in a ring, under any rules.

MMA is a "sport" for cowards. Only a coward, one who is not a full man, would attack a fallen opponent in anything less than a fight to the death.

I like to watch MMA because I think to myself that these are the men who would be gladiators hundreds of years ago. These are the guys who would survive a war. These guys are the pinnacle of what the human body can do. They turn their bodies into weapons and they show what power can erupt from a biological being if trained properly. I'm jealous of what these fighters can do and I'm proud that there are human beings left on this planet who train in the art of fighting.

As for boxing, I don't know enough about it and haven't watched it enough to comment on it intelligently but holy cow MMA is more entertaining.

I'm not sure why you waste your 'breath'...By this point in the thread, all anyone hears when you post is "Blah Blah Blah I don't know anything about MMA"

The little bubble of willful ignorance you've wrapped yourself in notwithstanding, MMA is an established sport in the US and Japan, and is rapidly expanding in Euorpe. This fact is not up for debate.

Although, for added fun, let's play a quick game of 'Name that Logical Fallacy!' I'm leaning towards either strawman, or possibly appeal to tradition.

I am in the same boat in this area. Too bad our overseas boxing advocate does not exercise similar discretion.

Sir, we get it. You don't like striking a downed opponent.

Oh, he'll get it when he's in a real fight, though.

Live and learn. And spend some time in the hospital.

Is a hard knock life out there.

/end GI Joe PSA

Are you still fantasing about fighting me? If I was brawling in self defence, by all means I might do anything - car keys in the face and then smack the elbow to the back of the head being my own feeling for a good tactic - but this is not a SPORT and it is not entertaining. It is a brawl.

If your whole argument is that MMA is much more like a street fight than boxing, by all means I agree - and people who enjoy street fights are welcome to it.

Are you genuinely claiming you know a group of people who know who "Chuck Liddell" is, but have never heard of Oscar De La Hoya?

Isn't he a rapper?

I dont know who Chuck Liddell is, I presume some kind of wrestler or karate fighter who is a well known cage fighter.

Liddell can out punch any modern day boxer..

I don't get the whole "MMA is for cowards" argument.. wouldn't it stand to reason that if you were in a no-rules (which mma isn't obviously) that it would take more balls than getting into a ring where you can only use one skill set??

If Liddell is a better boxer than any living boxer, why doesnt he - just say as a one off - fight for a world title? A title fight purse will be in the millions, more than he makes, or ever could make, in MMA Im sure... if he is such a well known figure he should only need 4 or 5 fights to get into title contention.

Once he has had a couple of fights and made 10 million dollars he can go back to MMA and be all hardcore or whatever. (and fight for 50,000 dollar purses again).

_

Perhaps he would... if he could box.

EDIT - apparently he is a light heavyweight. So he should go after Joe Calzaghe I guess, and give him a boxing lesson.

Liddell Chalenged Tommy Morrisson to a fight.

Sean Sherk challenged Floyd Mayweather to a fight.

It's the boxers who haven't accepted yet.

Butterbean and Ray Mercer fight mma and get desrtoryed constantly.

So much for acting like an Englishman

Ray Mercer is in his late 40's and Butterbean belongs in a circus.. what is the point of these observations?

Presumably next you'll tell me MMA is so far superior because Kurt Angle could beat Muhammad Ali since the Parkinson's set in?

Randy Couture is in his late 40s and he is a world champion. Age is a number, no more no less. You forget that I used to box to, I'm just pointing out that the transition isn't as easy as you're making it out to be.

I respect Muhammad Ali as an athlete and as a boxer. the man was simply amazing, and the fact that you would make such a stupid comment even in jest or what I assume was an attempt at insulting my intelligence, makes me question your respect for the guy.

Some boxers do well in octagon, Alessio Sakara has a decent record, and was a championship boxer in Italy, the difference is, and he learned Ju Jitsu. If he were to step in the cage with his quick hands and great technique with no ground game, he would get creamed just like Ray Mercer does, only at half his age. As a result he trains here in Miami and has a Brown belt in Ju Jitsu. He also maintains that to survive in the sport, you can’t rely on just boxing or wrestling, you have to learn as much as you can.

ps, if you want to prove an mma fan, it would probably be better to use someone who has had a professional fight as an example, not a wrestler who has yet to debut in a second tier talent company.

the fact that a middle aged man is capable of dominating MMA is hardly a good advert for it (anymore than George Foreman knocking out Michael Moorer was for boxing)

I'm not saying all middle-aged men are dominant. Ken Shamrock helped build the sport and got his ass handed to him the entire latter half of his career. Bernard Hopkins is still a champ in boxing as well, and still a great fighter. Age only affects you if you let it. It's only way it's not a good advert is if the middle-aged fighter doesn't fight on a remotely decent level. In Randy Coutures case, he's only gotten better, stronger, and more intelligent with age.

I just looked up the guy who is gonna beat Joe Calzaghe properly on wiki

Wins 20
By knockout 13
By submission 1
Losses 5
Draws 0

14 stoppages in 25 fights is apparently all it takes in MMA to be a better puncher than any boxer out there... I assume MMA fighters must have MUCH heavier gloves, or maybe they mostly fight 4 rounds most of the time? Because that is a pretty poor record if this guy is the premier puncher in the whole sport.

As for the Randy guy... you say is is late 40's... thats a LOT different tearly 40's (ie Bernard Hopkins, who is 41/42?)

I never said eh was in his late 40s he's 44. B-Hop is 43

B-Hop challenged Joe Calzaghe after beating Winky Wright.

As for Chuck Liddell I'd say a Wanderlei Silva or a Mauricio Shogun Rua have a betetr chance of beating a boxer using their Muay Thai. Chuck does betters with grapplers than against strikers, although the man throws bricks, but he is far from being the best striker in mma. Also what you fail to take into consideration, which can be excused since you ar enot a fan of the sport is this, a lot of Chuck Liddell's decision matches were in the eraly half of his career.
After that every single one of his wins was via KO.

*leans in thread like Spiderman*

Nope, I still wanna spar w/ StrangeFamous.

well, good for you internet tough guy.

__

And Muay Thai is a disgraceful activity. I saw it on some show called "human weapon" - the hooligans openly thrown knee's and elbows and aim to kill their opponents - the standard "KO" blow is a flying elbow to the top of the skull. To cause death is the highest honour for these thugs. It is no kind of sport - and has no place in any civilised society, it is of the stand standard as "snuff" movies.

MMA / Cage Fights at least have a ref who stops the fight when a fighter is knocked out and try to prevent fatalities. In Muay Thai the crowd cheer for a killing.

Competitive Muay Thai does have refs.

Many combat sports began as a way to kill your enemy, in fact all did, that si why they are known as MARTIAL arts.

Not to mention, why is a knee or an elbow unacceptable, when a a punch or a kick is... or are you against kicks to? If you are, stick to boxing and stop insulting a sport that you know nothing about because you have unrealistic expectations toward fighting.

Since this debate started you went from hating MMA because it allows ground strikes citing that you believe in "fighting like a proper Englishman", to saying that you would probably jam your keys into someone's face in a fight, to saying that Muay thai fighters are thugs, because they use knees and elbows. I don't know sir, but I would rather take a knee to the face than have some bitch punch me using a key.

I respected your opinions this entire time but being a Muay Thai student myself I take that as a direct insult since you basically called me a thug. If you want thuggish, disgraceful actions look to those who settle thier differences with guns and kinves, not to those who train in any given discipline for competition and self-defense purposes. I've spent a year training in muay thai and 3 training in boxing and guess what, in that entire time, I've gotten into one street fight (mind you it was because my friend was being attacked by four people), very thug-like of me isn't me? Before having any discipline I was willing to fight all comers. If anything, experience makes you see that fighting because someone looks at you wrong is absurd. I can honestly say, from what I have seen you say in this thread, is that I hope you never run into any actual trouble, because apparently you don't even know how you would react.

I like StrangeFamous. He sticks to his guns... er, fists.

apparently, even when they have keys in them.

No clue about other MMA organizations, but the UFC gloves fit this rule.
While I believe USA and International Boxing sanctioning bodies allow boxing gloves from 8 oz to 12 oz.

As for rounds, the UFC currently follows these rules:

• All non-championship bouts are three rounds.
• All championship bouts are five rounds.
• Rounds are five minutes in duration.
• A one-minute rest period occurs between each round.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi..._Muay_Thai.jpg

Pads? A Ring? What disgraceful thugs!

http://www.lloydirvin.com/adult/bjj/...structions.JPG

A ref? These men must be in imminent danger. What is he explaining? Rules? Those damned Hooligans.

ya know.. I think you get dumber by the minute on this subject Strange. Either that or you're just trolling. How can you honestly support a sport such as boxing with as much scandal it has? Oh.. yeah..that Mike Tyson was a great guy :rolleyes:

To sit there and talk such things about Muay Thai proves you have no fucking clue what you are talking about. Of all the martial art's I've tried, and watched, there are none IMO that carry more honor. The fighters have their own routines that pay honor to the ring and ancestors and other things before each match. They respect their opponents and.. I have never.. never seen anyone in the sport aim to kill someone.

All martial arts are bound in violence. .. get that.. all of them. They weren't developed as a sport. They were developed to protect and defend. They later developed into a sport, but they still have a purpose in protection.

Now, you sit there and talk shit about these fighters who walk into a ring.. make hardly any money, get the shit beat of out them and then call them dishonorable.. and then.. you turn your face and say you don't know what you'd do in a street fight. You might even use a weapon. What the holy fuck?? It's dishonorable to participate in a sport with rules, refs, medical staff and respect for the fellow fighter, but not to use a weapon? You're fucking looney. All I know is that if you or anyone else ever punched me with a set of keys in your fists.. you better fucking kill me.

What is so much more honorable about boxing with is a violent sport than another sport that is violent?? They all have some sort of human violence involved and they all rules. Maybe you should use the internet to do some research on the subject and learn about the history of MMA and Martial Arts so you can actually give a good reason other than this dillusion of honor you keep speaking of.

How would describe a blow with the POINT of the elbow aimed at the weakest part of the skull. other than an attempting killing strike?

You are right I am not an expert on Muay Thai... I do not know the % of fights which result in death or serious injury... all I can tell if from the amount I have seen of it, my judgment is that is an incredibly brutal activity - thought in a manner - boots, elbows, knee's, head butts - which in my own personal opinion is unmanly.

Fought mainly in area's of excruiating poverty, throwing young men and even children who have nothing to lose against each other into a savage fight where strikes with the elbow and knee are not only permitted, but actually encouraged and applauded.

Modern Muay Thai aims not to kill. What you are thinking of is it's predecessor Muay Boran. Which was used mainly in battle. At first High level Muay Thai fighters would implement Muay Boran techniques after several years experience, but Muay Boran has since been made illegal in Thailand since it's aim is serious injury or death (this of course as because it was a millitary martial art), therefore the techniques are no longer used.

As for the Young men in poverty stricken areas being representitive of Muay Thai. They Represent the sport about as well as street brawlers represent boxing.

I was beginning to think the same thing.

i just wanted to quickly point out again the huge difference generally seen in someone who's been in either sport for the longterm.

i don't hear any of the "punchy" or brain damaged slurs when i hear randy couture or ken shamrock give an interview. mike tyson, evander holyfield, etc. on the other hand.... well, it's not pretty.

you talk about this "gentlemanly sport" or "sweet science", yet the main point of it is repeatedly striking someone in the head, which is the worst place to receive damage, especially over time.

mma on the other hand can end in an armbar or other wrestling move, and if someone's hit in the head its one clean hit, not a barrage in general.

people can call me a troll, or call me ignorant, or whatever else they want.

I can tell YOU two things.

There will NEVER be a Muhammad Ali of "MMA", there will never be a fighter of MMA who breaks into mainstream awareness. However much popularity the sport gains amongst 20-30 males and HS kids and college students... there will never be a MMA fighter who is "da champ"

Whatever anyone says, I will always consider striking an opponent as down as cowardly, unsporting, and unmanly. You fight all out, and do anything that is allowed in the rules to get an advantage, but when a man is down.. you let him back up or let him stay down. To strike someone that is down, to attack a man who is already beaten... to me this is not something I ever want to see outside of a common brawl... I speak genuinely when I say it is disgusting to me.

I am sure MMA athletes are skilled and train hard, I am sure anything goes in a street fight... but what they do is not a sport that will ever enter popular culure. In a MMA fight, someone who trained all for years in this kind of activity would beat someone who trained as a boxer. In a boxing ring, a quality boxer would beat an MMA fighter every time.

The controversial question... what if Sugar Ray Robison had spent his whole life training in MMA, what if Royce Baysie has spent his whole life training as a boxer... you can look at it how you want, my opinion is that still hardly anyone would have heard of Royce Baysie, and still Sugar Ray would be one of the greatest of all time - and he would have done it in the ring under queensbury rules, not in a cage fight.

Ok strange.. have it your way. You just keep ignoring the obvious. I mean.. it's not like MMA has already gone mainstream.. no.. not at all. It's not like a downed opponent is actually knocked out.. you know.. there's no point in grappling or anything. :rolleyes:

I don't care what fucking ring the fighters step into. You can't honestly sit there and tell me that a one trick pony is going to beat a multiple trick dog every time just because of a different ring. Oh wait.. are you saying that a MMA fighter just using his boxing skills would get beat? Well that's a little understandable but I think it wouldn't be as dominant from the boxing standpoint that you think it would be. There are a ton of great strikers in MMA that have great angles and even harder punches.

If you don't like the way MMA works.. or you just don't understand it.. or you're just too fucking blind to see it for what it really is.. that's up to you.. and that's your right.. just as it's my right to think it's absolutely looney to say that boxing trumps MMA in any shape form or fashion.

i'm not a time traveller or anything.... but i can't be the only one who got a vibe on just how WRONG this prediction is. there will never be another muhammed ali, the person... but it's only a matter of time before a dominant champ arises in MMA and stays that way a long time. and when that happens, MMA will be more popular than boxing ever was. it already almost is.

The public will never follow a sport which allows a fighter to attack a man that is already down. This is why there will never be a "champ" of MMA, however skillful or dominant any MMA fighter may become.

MMA is nowhere NEAR boxing today, and never will be.

Like I said, it was a following amonst 15-30 year old males... much the same as WWF does. (and I am not saying the are the same thing). This year, Pretty Boy Floyd vs Ricky Hatton will be a fight for the ages... whatever the biggest MMA fight is will certainly delight MMA fans, but no one else will know about it.

UFC was popular in the mid 90's and faded. The current trend of MMA will go the same way in my opinion.

Where the hell do you live? Do you honestly believe what you type??

BOXING IS DEAD.

MMA kills any and every boxing match in ratings. It's not just 15-30 year old demographic either. UFC became so popular.. and huge that it even swallowed up Pride. Wait.. it was only popular in the '90's right? BULLSHIT. It wasn't nearly as huge back then as it is now. The current owners have it on a highly successful track with a huge profit. So say what you want about the current trend of MMA.. but it's a statement made in blindness.. or even jelousy because your beloved sport is dead.. dead.. dead.

Boxing died a long time ago because people got tired of all the BS that's associated with it. You have fake fighters out there just collecting a purse, you have a dumbass that gets put in jail constantly.. bad promoters etc. MMA will surely go through some of this, but it won't be for quite a while.

To say the public would never follow it is pretty fucking bold. Consider how much humans like their violence and you can surely see how you are wrong. Why will it become bigger than boxing? Because it's brutal but safer than boxing and it has more respect among fighters and the business side is run alot better.

guccilvr,

go to bbc.co.uk

go to sports

is there an MMA link?
is there a boxing link?

__

In fact, no... I dont want you to accuse me of exploiting some kind of Atalantic bias.

Go to yahoo.com

Go to espn.com

__

Let me know on which site you see MMA getting a higher billing than boxing.

I actually know far more people here in L.A. who follow UFC and Pride than boxing fans. In fact, I don't think I know a single person my age who follows boxing anymore. I think UFC is far beyond "fringe sport" status.

I also don't understand your point about striking fallen opponents. If it's about being a "gentlemen", then there's no need to worry yourself. As has been noted many times in this thread by followers and fighters, many UFC fighters are MORE dangerous on their backs than on their feet. So taking the fight to the ground puts them at an advantage - they're far, far from defenseless.

so ubertuber... will you go to bbc, to yahoo, to espn, or whatever other mainstream source you use... to show us how MMA is so much more popular than the sweet science?

Why would I do that? I didn't say that MMA is listed higher on websites than boxing. What I said was that among the group of people I know (wide range of ages), there are many fans of MMA and virtually none of boxing. ESPN, Yahoo, etc. don't really know anything about that.

At any rate, listings on websites have more to do with money and corporate control than with popularity or viability. So your thought experiment speaks more to the corporate soul of boxing than anything else. Personally, I don't see the purse sizes and the types of "gentlemen" they attract as being much of an endorsement for boxing.

**EDIT**

I got curious and went to ESPN. Boxing is listed 2nd to last on the title bar. If you click "more", you'll find MMA two links above cricket, which is obviously a fringe sport.

so corporations promote an unpopular and dated sport that no one cares about rather than a "new, popular" sport?

wow.

Thats a good way for them to make profit