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pan6467 05-31-2007 09:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ilow
The Red Sox are a big market team, period. Not like the Yankees. First as i said, it is a matter of organizational philosophy, the yankees just buy already developed talent for the most part. Second it's a matter of scale. The Yankers payroll is over 205 million, without Clemens etc., that is over 85 million more than the Red Sox, sure the Sox are number two, by a fair margin, but they are much closer to the rest of the field (the other 8 of the top 10 teams are all over 85 mil.) Seriously, only a few teams (like maybe 4) have payrolls much over the DIFFERENCE between the Yankers and Red Sox! Also, when team management spends only 40% of it's revenue on payroll (Cle 2006) you have to start asking yourself how much are they comitted to winning for their fans? As for the network revenue, how does that not direclty reflect on the fans in those areas? Boston, Chicago, New York fans are passionate enough to support a network. I don't know what Baltimore or Cleveland's excuse is, their cities are of comparable populations as Boston, and they both have extensive suburban areas as Boston does.


As for Cleveland, I am by no means a Dolan/Shapiro fan, however, they have been saying that as the team progresses the money will be spent.

My hope and belief is that they have saved the revenue they didn't spend so that they can go out and get players come trading deadline, so they can go out and resign Hafner AND CC.

Above the argument was made "if Cleveland is so hot why don't they have the revenue?"

Well,

-the Dolans upset a lot of fans who refused to buy (but are coming back now),

-They say they are putting the money back into the team by building a strong minor league system, by saving so when they need to they can trade or sign guys they need, etc (it's possible, we'll see come this trade season)

-Cleveland has the poorest base of all the other teams (Median income is lowest here) so you can't raise prices too high, and when gas reaches these heights the disposable income depletes and games are a luxury people don't need and can't afford (and every game is televised), and the fact that there is a mass exodus from the city

-Free agents don't want to come to Cleveland right now, there's no nightlife, the poverty/crime rate is the highest of any other MLB city, the schools are shit, the city is dying. (The 90's we were having a renaissance and Cleveland had it all, but Cleveland is the first to feel a recession and the last to recover... plus they have had the worst city leadership I have ever seen. So much so, they may have destroyed a once beautiful proud city beyond repair)

-the Cavs are in the playoffs and the Browns had a tremendous draft, so the attentiion is not 100% focused on the Tribe (as opposed to the 90's when they dominated it), This means in park advertising revenue, corporate sponsorships (which are all lower than the big market teams get), even season tickets, the all important loge and luxury boxes, etc etc., so that money is drying up and isn't there (and this is what feeds a team more than anything, including fans at the park)

-the Tribe own their own tv network (2nd year in), they show EVERY game, what the Dolans are doing is trying to get the interest and passion back and get people to want to go to the Jake (they are also raising their revenue by the ad money they make, but that will take awhile to show up), unfortunately it also is a bouble edged sword in that, why spend $100 (tix, food, parking, etc) when you can watch the game in the privacy of your home or at the corner bar?

This is a make or break time for the Indians, either they start winning and the Dolans prove to everyone they will put the money in or the team dies and becomes that which they were in the 70's and 80's just a farm team for others.

So there you have it. It's bullshit and laughable to say Cleveland and Boston's suburbs are similar.... or to say Baltimore and Cleveland are similar. Cleveland/Detroit/Pittsburgh those 3 are the most similar in type of people and economics... but even then Cleveland (because of poor leadership and focus) ranks below them.

Let's see the Jake holds 48,000..... the average ticket is roughly $20 (and while it may not seem like much, by the time you add food, parking and driving (because there is no true public transportation here) it is unaffordable for a lot of people..... even if you sellout all 81 games you're making $78 Million gross, then you have to pay the lease, the front office, etc etc.

So this proves the ad revenue is the most important aspect.... but when your city is dying and companies are cutting back on advertising.......

Kadath 05-31-2007 04:06 PM

Ilow, just one thing: Where are you getting the Red Sox payroll at less than 120 million? The lowest number I've seen is $143 million. Also, I've seen the Yankees payroll around 195 (without Clemens).

pan, thanks for helping out. gucci, you talk a lot of smack about winning the Series for having won the same number as the Indians in the last 75 years. :)

Ilow 05-31-2007 04:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kadath
Ilow, just one thing: Where are you getting the Red Sox payroll at less than 120 million? The lowest number I've seen is $143 million. Also, I've seen the Yankees payroll around 195 (without Clemens).

pan, thanks for helping out. gucci, you talk a lot of smack about winning the Series for having won the same number as the Indians in the last 75 years. :)

i got it from here http://www.fantasybaseballcafe.com/f...c.php?t=112578
I know ESPN's is different, and I've seen others that are different still. I think it comes down to cash transactions, and at what point you count. the 195 for the yankees is definitely pre-clemens, but i have no idea how anybody adds or doesn't add things like posting fees. i know some people include guaranteed bonus money etc. The point is really that the yankers are spending at minimum 30% more than the next team and pretty much double anybody else, even the other team they share a city with. No one's saying that the small market teams are not at some amount of a disadvantage, but Oakland, Minn, Fla, St. Louis, Detroit, and Cle have certainly proven that small market teams can be competetive. many people's problem with the yankees is their "corporate" philosophy and their insistence at simply trying to buy the best that they can rather than trying to build a team. That's why they now have current or former all-stars at 8 of 9 positions but are still playing like crap. Who wants to root for a 25 players 25 cabs kind of team? The Red Sox spend a significant amount of money to be sure, but they still at least attempt to do it creatively.
And Pan, your point is taken that there are certainly different socioeconomic differences between metropolitan areas, like Cleveland and Boston, but don't forget that Boston also has a relative few who make ridiculous amount of money that skews the per capita income, and the cost of living is one of the top three highest in the nation. The vast majority of Sox fans aren't like the ted kennedy and john kerry's of the world. Everyone in the rust belt is feeling a pinch these days. Be glad you don't have a big dig to pour money into. For what we've spent on that so far we should have a 4 lane to China by now.

shortynickel 05-31-2007 06:38 PM

So I am a little late, I didnt see this thread previously.

If I could put down my predictions that I had at the beginning of the season...

AL East: Baltimore (doesnt look good atm)
AL Central: Minnesota
AL West:dont really follow but say LA to go with my NL pick
Wild Card: Cleveland (since they were the underdog in March)

NL East: Atlanta (of course)
NL Central: Milwaukee
NL West: LA
NL Wild Card: Cubs (since they were also the underdog) Realistic Wild Card would have be Philly.

Glory's Sun 06-01-2007 03:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kadath
gucci, you talk a lot of smack about winning the Series for having won the same number as the Indians in the last 75 years. :)

Of course I talk smack.. it's what us Sox fans do.. isn't it?? :D

I'm a sox fan.. I'm no stranger to the taste of foot in my mouth..

Kadath 06-01-2007 03:40 PM

Here is an article on overpaid and underpaid players. Guess who has the most overpaid players? Hint: Not the Yankees!

http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/news?slu...yhoo&type=lgns

Boston Highlights   click to show 


It's just this guy's opinion, I know. :)

Ilow 06-01-2007 04:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kadath
Here is an article on overpaid and underpaid players. Guess who has the most overpaid players? Hint: Not the Yankees!

http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/news?slu...yhoo&type=lgns

Boston Highlights   click to show 


It's just this guy's opinion, I know. :)

Please, he's just trying to fill up his article. Anyone who assesses contracts after a month and a half is a moron. If he's going to be critical for lack of performance through April and May, he could say Rivera's $10.5 million and 4 saves is the worst contract, or Mussina's $11+ million patheticness, or how about Giambi's $23+ million, and 7 homers and .260 BA. Criticizing Clement's is legit as he was a bust, but teams will always take chances on pitchers (yankees with pavano, igawa, johnson, etc). He would have more credibility if he criticized crisp, who has at least been on the team for a season, and generally been sub-par, except for some highlight reel catches.

kutulu 06-02-2007 07:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ilow
The Red Sox are a big market team, period. Not like the Yankees. First as i said, it is a matter of organizational philosophy, the yankees just buy already developed talent for the most part.

This is total bullshit. Don't try to spin the Red Sox as some team that tries to use their farm system as the base of new talent for the organization. They aren't. They sign free agents at the same rate that the Yankees do. Actually, the Yankees have more than twice as many homegrown players on their team:

The Red Sox have 4 players on their active roster that developed in their farm system: Papelbon, Veritek, Pedoria, and Youkilis.

The Yankees have 10: Clippard, Pettitte, Proctor, Wang, Rivera, Posada, Cano, Jeter, Cabrerra, and Thompson

Quote:

Second it's a matter of scale. The Yankers payroll is over 205 million, without Clemens etc., that is over 85 million more than the Red Sox, sure the Sox are number two, by a fair margin, but they are much closer to the rest of the field (the other 8 of the top 10 teams are all over 85 mil.) Seriously, only a few teams (like maybe 4) have payrolls much over the DIFFERENCE between the Yankers and Red Sox!
The correct opening day payrolls are $189.6 for the Yankees and $143 for the Red Sox. Add in the posting fees paid ($26 for Igawa and $51 for Matsuzaka), and they are $215.6 and $194. The difference is not as much as you'd like to think it is and really, once you are at the point at which both of your payrolls exceed the combined payrolls of the bottom 5 teams in baseball it's really a pot and kettle argument.

Ilow 06-02-2007 05:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kutulu
This is total bullshit. Don't try to spin the Red Sox as some team that tries to use their farm system as the base of new talent for the organization. They aren't. They sign free agents at the same rate that the Yankees do. Actually, the Yankees have more than twice as many homegrown players on their team:

The Red Sox have 4 players on their active roster that developed in their farm system: Papelbon, Veritek, Pedoria, and Youkilis.

The Yankees have 10: Clippard, Pettitte, Proctor, Wang, Rivera, Posada, Cano, Jeter, Cabrerra, and Thompson



The correct opening day payrolls are $189.6 for the Yankees and $143 for the Red Sox. Add in the posting fees paid ($26 for Igawa and $51 for Matsuzaka), and they are $215.6 and $194. The difference is not as much as you'd like to think it is and really, once you are at the point at which both of your payrolls exceed the combined payrolls of the bottom 5 teams in baseball it's really a pot and kettle argument.

First, the Yankee payroll is way over 189 mil, any way you cut it. Even ESPN, who is up their ass lists it at $195mil and change and the Red Sox at $143mil and some change to start the season. (http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/wire?...mlb&id=2823605) And did you conveniently forget that the savior is returning at a mere $28mil, prorated to $18mil? that puts the yankees at $213 mil or more, which is, like i said, almost 50% more than the red sox. Even if you consider the posting fees paid for the Japanese players (which again you conveniently forgot to spread over the life of the contract in order to skew your point) the payrolls are not really comparable. I have acknowledged all along that the red sox are a big market team with an abundance of resources, but even they simply cannot do some of the financial things that the yankees can, particularly in the middle of the season.
I should have been more specific when i said that the yankees simply buy talent, I was not referring to the farm systems exactly but really to the yankees ability to procure and maintain talent. When have the red sox ever had all stars at 8 of 9 positions? Look at the top major league salaries,1.Alex Rodriguez, NYY--$27,708,525 2. Jason Giambi, NYY--$23,428,571 3. Derek Jeter, NYY--21,600,000 4. Manny Ramirez, Bos--17,016,381 5. Todd Helton, Col--16,600,000 6. Bartolo Colon, LAA--16,000,000 (tie) Andy Pettitte, NYY--16,000,000 8. Jason Schmidt, LAD--15,703,946 9. Jim Thome, Wsox--15,666,667 10. Bobby Abreu, NYY--15,600,000 (again, from ESPN.com) why are the top 3 yankees, why are half the top 10 yankees? Because they are playing on a different scale than everybody else. No other team in baseball could afford to keep all of those players. Why do you think that every time a-rod's name comes up with regard to coming to Boston, the red sox first have to figure out how to get rid of Manny and his salary? Don't you think that being a New England Patriots fan and watching their success with a salary cap that i would love to see one for baseball? Of course, but until they have one in the MLB, the yankees are on an entirely different tier than everyone else.

kutulu 06-04-2007 09:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ilow
Even if you consider the posting fees paid for the Japanese players (which again you conveniently forgot to spread over the life of the contract in order to skew your point) the payrolls are not really comparable.

I 'conveniently' forgot to spread the posting fees out over the life of the contract because they are NOT spread out over the life of the contract. It is a one-time, lump-sum payment paid to the posting team. They are still paying nearly $200M this year.

I just don't understand how Boston fans think they are so different than the Yankees. Take out the posting fee and you are still paying nearly $150M. You outspend everyone but the Yankees and based on the revenues, you have the resources to add payroll.

I got my payroll numbers from Cot's. It is a great site that summarizes contracts for every player and every team.

goddfather40 06-04-2007 09:28 PM

I'd like to interrupt this Red Sox/Yankees borefest to inform everyone of the Angels and their magic. 37-22 now and a nice lead in the AL West. It's really starting to feel like '02 and '05 again. Pitching dominant, Hitting doing just enough (16 runs tonight ! :eek: ) and defense vastly improved. Yes, we all know the A's will get hot in the second half, but the Angels can hold them off and have in the past.

Gary Matthews, Jr. aka Mr. HGH, has made liars out of most people and is one of the key reasons for the resurgence. Great defense and solid hitting from that guy. BIG surprise.

A Red Sox - Angels ALCS would be so sweet.

Glory's Sun 06-05-2007 04:35 AM

I am surprised at the major defensive adjustment the Halos have made. I guess I'll eat a toe or two. ;)

Yes a Red Sox victory over the Angels in the ALCS would be great :D

The Red Sox appear to be headed for a patented slump.. I just hope it's not a major one.

Mister Coaster 06-05-2007 05:30 AM

The Angels FINALLY had all 8 of their position players in the lineup last night, and yeah, 16 runs later (4 homers, one was a Grand Salami) let the doubters eat crow. They have all 3 clicking, offence, defence and pitching. Those blowouts by the BoSox early mean nothing, wait until they come to the Big A.

I'll have to admit that I felt pretty bad for relief pitcher Jason Miller, 8 earned runs and recorded only one out. Thats a 216 ERA for that outing, MERCY!

kutulu 06-05-2007 10:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by guccilvr
I am surprised at the major defensive adjustment the Halos have made. I guess I'll eat a toe or two. ;)

Yes a Red Sox victory over the Angels in the ALCS would be great :D

The Red Sox appear to be headed for a patented slump.. I just hope it's not a major one.

Good, the DBacks play the Sox this weekend:

Davis vs. Beckett
Owings vs. Taverez
Johnson vs. Matsuzaka

I'm so bummed that Schilling won't be pitching in the series. Oh well, it's better for us that way. I won't be surprised if we lose 2 but I think we have a chance to take 2 from the Red Sox. The DBacks have finally started hitting and the pitching has been on an absolute rampage.

The_Jazz 06-05-2007 10:30 AM

Fuckin' Cubs...

Ilow 06-05-2007 11:55 AM

the angels are looking really sharp, and don't forget they have the talisman, orlando cabrera, he always makes things happen. The a's always do get hot in the 2nd half, but with their injuries i think the halos will hold them off. Vlad is a pleasure to watch any day too.
gucc, i don't think the sox are going into a patented slump, a tad too early for that, just a tough couple of games. I think they referenced it last night, but their number 5 starter (tavarez) has faced the other team's ace in something like 7 of his 10 starts, no wonder he's last in run support in his starts. Kutulu, I agree that it will be a shame to not have schill pitch in the desert, for some reason I am psyched for that last game, should be a doozie. BTW, does anyone else feel like the schedule is all over the place this year, I feel like interleague used to be more organized into a couple of bunches, not just tossed into west coast swing, and this whole flying to the west coast after a (late) sunday night baseball game is just silly. maybe it's just me.

kutulu 06-05-2007 12:53 PM

I wish I could check out a few Oakland games but I live in an NL city so the best I could get are sportscenter highlights. Their pitching is amazing. Park and league adjusted they have to have the best pitching in baseball.

Another thing, how is it that the Yankees suck so much? Sure, their pitching sucks but they still have a strongly positive run differential. Their RS and RA suggest that they should be a few games ABOVE .500, not 7 below.

Glory's Sun 06-06-2007 04:24 AM

The Yankees suck because A-rod is a madonna boy and it has spread throughout the clubhouse.

Not that I'm complaining... :D

kutulu 06-06-2007 09:50 AM

lol

Look at this play by Brandon Lyon last night. I can't get the link to work, so just copy it and paste it into your browser.

javascript:void(playMedia2({w_id:'576252',w:'2007/open/tp/archive06/060507_sfnari_lyon_def_tp_350.wmv',pid: 'mlb_tp',gid: '2007/06/05/sfnmlb-arimlb-1',vid: '7758',mid: '200706062008652',cid: 'mlb',fid: 'mlb_tp400',v:'2'}))

Destrox 06-06-2007 01:33 PM

I must say I HATE MLBS VIDEO STREAMING SERVER.


Slowest piece of shit on earth.


Anyways,

That was a most amazing play by that pitcher, wow. That may be the play of the week, hands down.

Kadath 06-07-2007 04:49 AM

How is that a legitimate link, kutulu?

kutulu 06-07-2007 08:03 AM

It was working yesterday if you copied and pasted it. It can be found here, third vid link down

Kadath 06-07-2007 09:26 AM

My bad. It's that MLB shitty shit shit player doesn't like my Firefox. I got it to work in IE. That is an amazing play.

QuasiMondo 06-11-2007 09:54 PM

Some will ask, "Is it too early for a Mets fan to panic?"

My answer: It's never too early for a Mets fan to panic.

Destrox 06-12-2007 03:09 AM

Heh, thats the life of an Indian as well. :)

Its a panic race all the way to the end.

Ilow 06-12-2007 04:51 AM

same as a red sox fan too. i guess we're in a fortunate position if you think about it, do you think that tampa bay, kansas city etc, ever panic?

QuasiMondo 06-12-2007 08:13 AM

I think Kansas City has abandoned all hope. Go Chiefs?

spongy 06-17-2007 07:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kutulu

The Red Sox have 4 players on their active roster that developed in their farm system: Papelbon, Veritek, Pedoria, and Youkilis.

As a long time mariner's fan, i would like to point out that Varitek was NOT a Sox
farm hand, he was a Mariner that was traded for Heath Slocum (if memory serves), but he was definitely a Mariner. I still think the GM of the M's that year deserves a World Series ring.

kutulu 06-17-2007 11:57 PM

1150 ABs in the M's farm system doesn't make him a Mariner. And really, if we are going to send rings to stupid GM's that undervalue their players Joe Garagiola, Jr. is in front of the line for a 2004 Boston ring for his trade of Schilling for Fossum and Lyon.

dylanmarsh 06-18-2007 08:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kutulu
1150 ABs in the M's farm system doesn't make him a Mariner. And really, if we are going to send rings to stupid GM's that undervalue their players Joe Garagiola, Jr. is in front of the line for a 2004 Boston ring for his trade of Schilling for Fossum and Lyon.

Schilling wanted out of Arizona and it was either let him play out the contract or cut your losses get what you can. People forget that RJ and Schill were constantly butting heads, trying to determine who was the alpha-dog of the clubhouse. Schilling opted out to further his legacy in Boston and succeeded. For all intents and purposes, the Dbacks were forced to deal with Boston because of Schilling, not Joe Jr.

Besides, at the time, the Sox gave up a ton of talent to get Schilling. Jorge de la Rosa is making strides to becoming what the Sox and Dbacks thought he'd be. Of course, he's in a Royals' uniform, now. And, I might add, he was a part of the Richie Sexson trade. The Sexson deal nearly killed the franchise; Joe Jr. can take that one on the chin.

spongy 06-18-2007 09:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kutulu
1150 ABs in the M's farm system doesn't make him a Mariner. And really, if we are going to send rings to stupid GM's that undervalue their players Joe Garagiola, Jr. is in front of the line for a 2004 Boston ring for his trade of Schilling for Fossum and Lyon.

No, but 1150 ABs for the M's makes him a player the Sox traded for not developed, that was my point.

kutulu 06-19-2007 09:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dylanmarsh
Schilling wanted out of Arizona and it was either let him play out the contract or cut your losses get what you can. People forget that RJ and Schill were constantly butting heads, trying to determine who was the alpha-dog of the clubhouse. Schilling opted out to further his legacy in Boston and succeeded. For all intents and purposes, the Dbacks were forced to deal with Boston because of Schilling, not Joe Jr.

Besides, at the time, the Sox gave up a ton of talent to get Schilling. Jorge de la Rosa is making strides to becoming what the Sox and Dbacks thought he'd be. Of course, he's in a Royals' uniform, now. And, I might add, he was a part of the Richie Sexson trade. The Sexson deal nearly killed the franchise; Joe Jr. can take that one on the chin.

Sorry but I totally disagree with that. The DBacks had all of the power in that situation and allowed themselves to get minimal value for one of the best starting pitchers available at the time. Boston bent over AZ on that trade and Joe Jr. thanked them for it. The talent they gave up was minimal as best. Quantity does not equal quality.

guy44 06-25-2007 08:20 PM

Kadath, MLB's video player completely works in Firefox. I use it all the time.

That was a great play by Lyon. As a longtime Cubs fan, it was also great to hear Gracie with the call.

Mister Coaster 06-29-2007 08:55 PM

Angels v Baltimore... what a game... Sorry O's fans.

Kadath 07-02-2007 12:45 PM

Just wanted to mention that the Indians are making me happy right now. Won 4 in a row, 7-3 for their last 10. They have the third best record in baseball and the best home record of anyone. I'd still like them to have more solid pitching, but they're in great shape. If they can just keep it up...

Ilow 07-02-2007 06:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kadath
Just wanted to mention that the Indians are making me happy right now. Won 4 in a row, 7-3 for their last 10. They have the third best record in baseball and the best home record of anyone. I'd still like them to have more solid pitching, but they're in great shape. If they can just keep it up...

The Indians are a fun team and are playing well. They do have the misfortune of having the Twins (who always heat up in the second half) and Tigers, who are playing good ball and pitching well. AL Central is brutal this season.

The_Jazz 07-03-2007 05:11 AM

Hmm, Cubs have won 9/10 (10/11 actually) and are over .500. They're still 6 1/2 back of the Brewers, but they're playing Washington and Pittsburgh this week.

Hey, anyone want to watch me get my hopes up just to get kicked in the balls again?

At least I can feel good that the White Sox are about to start the fire sale.

bazkitcase5 07-03-2007 10:07 AM

haha, yea, the cubs will find a way to lose to the people their supposed to beat this week (I like the cubs too unfortunately)

altho I must admit, the Lou tirade that led to suspensions seems to have worked after all

Mister Coaster 07-10-2007 07:58 AM

My boy Big Daddy Vladdy tearin' it up in the Home Run Derby. Way to hammer that rock. I know it's all meaningless, but it fun to watch guys crushin' em out. Especially Vlad's 503' smackaroo, woof.

goddfather40 07-10-2007 07:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mister Coaster
My boy Big Daddy Vladdy tearin' it up in the Home Run Derby. Way to hammer that rock. I know it's all meaningless, but it fun to watch guys crushin' em out. Especially Vlad's 503' smackaroo, woof.

Now Vladdy needs to carry some momentum and start a hot streak, he's been a little cold the last couple weeks.

Mister Coaster 07-11-2007 05:17 AM

^ Agreed. With "only" 14 homers at the break, I think the odds are he's really going to start hittin' em out. Kind of like Figgins' run after his dismal .111 start this year.

MontanaXVI 07-19-2007 01:32 AM

I'm not gone, just lurking and holding out hope that the hard luck A's can do something.

Mister Coaster 07-20-2007 05:00 PM

I have to admit, I'm not TOO surprised at The A's struggles. They had a brilliant pitching staff not long ago and traded them all away. Seattle, on the other hand, who lit a fire under their collective asses?

kutulu 08-02-2007 11:47 AM

Damn, this season has been such a roller coaster for me. The DBacks are finally back in first and they just called up Justin Upton. I'm excited but not expecting to stay in first place for a long time.

The team is so damn inconsistent. They have had at least 3 streaks of 7 wins but then they fall off a cliff for the next few.

Glory's Sun 08-02-2007 12:11 PM

Well the Trade Deadline was pretty disappointing and I'm shocked at some of the teams that didn't make a move.. especially Cleveland.

I'm not sure how I feel about the Gange trade just yet, I know it should help in the long run but I guess we'll have to see how he handles a big market.

I'm also hoping that the Bo'Sox don't get Jermaine Dye. I just don't see him fitting in with the club that well. Speculation has Santana coming over from the Twins possibly next year.. man that would be awesome.

I'm pretty surprised at the D-backs this season. I thought they would have gone and got a big big bat but with the mostly crap that was out there I can't really blame them.

kutulu 08-02-2007 02:53 PM

Yes, Boston is a larger stage than LA but LA is not small market by any means. The Red Sox are some lucky mfers to have Gagne as a setup guy. This effectively reduces a game against them to 7 innings. Definite favorites to win in all now (as if there was much doubt before).

As for position players, the DBacks are still committed to their young bats (although bringing up Upton rather than a AAA OF to fill in signals that they have had it with Carlos Quentin for the year). They recently fired the hitting coach and that prompted them to go 11-6 since the break. They needed starting pitching more than anything.

Overall, they have gotten by all year on luck and a great bullpen. Those guys are going to break down if the starters not named Webb and Davis continue to shit all over the place.

Glory's Sun 08-02-2007 04:44 PM

My concern with the Gagne trade is basically a health concern. He's done well this year staying healthy, but after seeing J.D. Drew do pretty much nothing all year, and the issues we've had with Coco Crisp and injuries.. the last thing I want as a fan is another overpayed DL player.

I was really surprised the Sox got rid of Gabbard, he was doing awesome. Now I know you have to give up something to get something and at least we didn't give up the phenom's (Clay Buchholz, Jacoby Ellsbury, and Justin Masterson) but I would have loved to see Gabbard stay in the mix even at Pawtucket in order for a 2008 rotation somewhere along the lines of Beckett, Matsusaka, Lester, Gabbard and Santana.. of course that means getting rid of Curt and Wakefield but they are getting old.. you can't rely on old arms but for so long.


Then the other issue is who in the world wants to buy Willy Mo?? Send him to the Red's? For what? There's nothing much there and the chi'sox aren't going to go one for one with Willy Mo and Dye.

There's so much more that could change this year even on waivers, so it's going to continue to be an interesting year.

kutulu 08-03-2007 08:37 AM

I wouldn't worry about his health. He's only a 2 month rental. Boston is on the hook for 2.1M of his performance bonuses (they were guaranteed as a condition of waiving the NTC) and about 2M in salary. Therefore, they will pay about $4M for 2 months. That is a lot, especially considering he'll get less than 30 innings but Boston can afford it.

Teams can pick up spare parts on waivers but they aren't going to get anyone that can make much of a difference.

djtestudo 08-04-2007 05:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mister Coaster
I have to admit, I'm not TOO surprised at The A's struggles. They had a brilliant pitching staff not long ago and traded them all away. Seattle, on the other hand, who lit a fire under their collective asses?

You mean Barry Zito (ungodly contract, 5.12 ERA in National League in great pitcher's park), Mark Mulder (7.14 ERA before injury last year, and hasn't been seen since), and Tim Hudson (the only one even pitching well)?

Mister Coaster 08-05-2007 04:45 AM

Yeah them, a pitching staff isn't just about ERA. Its about too many things to list, and the A's had pitchers that did it, now they dont. Answer me this, is their pitching staff better now or was it better in 2006? Quote all the ERA stats you want, it's the W-L record that counts.

Edit: I meant the A's in 2006, not 2005.

kutulu 08-06-2007 11:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mister Coaster
Quote all the ERA stats you want, it's the W-L record that counts.

Russ Ortiz would like a minute of your time. He led MLB with 164 wins from 1999 - 2004 and he had just barely better than a league average ERA.

The biggest fallacy in all of sports: the idea that it is the W-L record that should be celebrated over the ERA. The pitcher has control over 3 the three true outcomes (TTO): K's, BB, and HR. Everything else is left up to the defense. Sure, they can throw pitches that induce groundballs or weak popupts but they can only control so much of that.

Here is a nice article from Stark:

Quote:

How often have you heard this question asked this season:

What's wrong with Johan Santana?

Uh, how about nothing?

Yeah, his win-loss record is "only" 7-6. Yeah, that's exactly the same record as Miguel Batista. Yeah, that's as many wins as Adam Eaton. But what we have here, friends, is another classic case of how numbers deceive us.

Johan Santana has won two AL Cy Young Awards -- in 2004 and last season.
Well, some numbers.

But especially these numbers -- wins and losses.

Why are we still looking at wins and losses first when we talk about starting pitchers? Don't we live these days in a more enlightened age than that?

In a world that now allows us to evaluate pitchers with so much more revealing information, why are we still hung up on the same numbers that defined pitchers in 1912?

"It all comes down to 120 years of thinking of the pitcher as the guy who wins the game," says Baseball Prospectus' always-incisive Joe Sheehan. "With the advent of bullpens and the higher offensive levels, the fact is that pitchers are more reliant on their offense to score than they used to be. ... So a pitcher's wins just don't correlate as a reliable indicator of pitcher performance the way they used to 80 or 100 years ago."

We couldn't agree more. And we have lots of ideal test cases this year to prove our point, too. So let's take a look at five pitchers whose (W-L) numbers are deceiving:

Johan Santana
Yeah, Santana is really having a crummy year, all right. He's second in the league in strikeouts, third in strikeout ratio, fourth in ERA and fifth in opponent batting average and on-base percentage.

His ERA (2.91) is a run lower than Jeremy Bonderman's (7-0, 3.92). And Santana beats Josh Beckett (10-1) in ERA, strikeout ratio, WHIP and opponent average. So how come The Great Johan is "only" 7-6? Well, the Twins have scored two runs or fewer while he was in the game eight times already. And that has translated to six quality starts that didn't add any "W's" to his record.

So this guy is having a "down" year only if you compare him to himself, not the rest of the pitching species. And we're not even sure if it's safe to say that. His ERA and strikeout rate are almost identical to where they were a year ago after 15 starts. And his opponent average after 15 starts (.218) is the lowest of his career at this stage.

"His velocity is down a little," says one scout. "He used to pitch at 93-94. Now he's more like 90-91. And he has had some trouble keeping his changeup down, which is why he's given up more home runs (14 already). But he's still the best pitcher in the league."

Matt Cain
Here's the question we should be asking about Matt Cain: Is he the best 2-7 pitcher in history? Hey, he just might be, as a matter of fact.

We couldn't find a single pitcher in the expansion era who had an ERA as good as Cain's (3.15), or a hits-per-nine-IP rate as good as Cain's (7.02 per nine IP) who wound up a season with a winning percentage as lousy as his is now (.222). But even 2-7 doesn't do justice to how crummy the Giants have played behind him. Their record when he starts is an incomprehensible 2-12.

So how do we explain this? Just about every way possible. He has lost two 1-0 games and a 2-0 game. The bullpen has blown three saves for him. And the offense has scored two runs or fewer in nine of his starts. It's been so ugly that he has allowed three hits or fewer five times -- and won one of them.

"To me, he's a lot like Justin Verlander," says one scout. "It's easy to think he could throw multiple no-hitters. That's how good his stuff is. And he's 2-7. Now that doesn't make a whole lot of sense."

Gil Meche
There are probably people out there looking at Gil Meche's 4-6 record in Kansas City and saying, "I told you so." But if those are the only numbers you're perusing, you're hereby assigned to go back and reread the first 11 paragraphs of this column.

Meche has had the third-worst run support in the American League. But let's break down that support (or lack thereof) another way. You've heard of quality starts, right? (That's the stat that measures how many times a pitcher gives his team a chance to win a game.) We're inventing a new stat -- the CUS (Criminally Unsupported Start) -- which measures games in which an offense gives its pitcher no chance to win.

Our definition of a CUS is a game in which a pitcher goes at least six innings, but his offense scores no more than one run while he's in the game. Believe it or not, it's happened to Meche eight times already. Only one other pitcher in baseball (Jon Garland, with six) has more than five CUS.

"That [record] describes what people thought Meche was going to be," says one scout. "But that's not what he's been. I didn't think he had it in him to be a No. 3 [starter], let alone a No. 1. But he's pitched like a No. 1."

Andy Pettitte
It ought to be impossible to be a Yankee with a sub-3.00 ERA (2.93) and just a 4-4 record. But that's exactly what Andy Pettitte was before he was forced by the schedule gods to pitch in Coors Field on Wednesday (where he gave up six runs in 6 2/3 innings in a 6-1 loss).

Pettitte has had three saves blown behind him. And he's had just enough shaky defense and up-and-down run support that Baseball Prospectus ranks him as the sixth-unluckiest pitcher in the American League (just ahead of Meche). The result is that Pettitte still hasn't won a game in which he has allowed more than one run. Hard to believe.

"He was one of their few bright spots during that bad period," says one scout. "He hasn't gotten enough credit for that."

Erik Bedard
Erik Bedard's breakout year has been lost amid the rubble of the Orioles' other issues. But this guy ought to be way better than a 4-4 pitcher.

He leads the major leagues in strikeouts (112 in 94 IP). And the even better news is that he's working on a streak of nine straight starts in which he has allowed three runs or fewer. The bad news is, he has won exactly one of those nine starts -- thanks to three blown saves and no more than four runs to work with in any of those games.

"He came up as a thrower, but he's morphed into a guy who can pitch," says one scout. "He's got well-above-average stuff every time I see him. And now he's getting ahead of the hitters, which gives him a chance to pitch. He keeps them in every game. They just keep finding ways not to win."

Ah, but they're not the only ones. Which means those five pitchers aren't the only pitchers in this mess. So we'd hate to overlook this list:

Other pitchers who could sue for nonsupport

Jeremy Guthrie, Orioles; Mark Buehrle, Javier Vazquez and Jon Garland, White Sox; Joe Kennedy, A's; Carlos Silva, Twins; Ted Lilly and Rich Hill, Cubs; Ian Snell and Tom Gorzelanny, Pirates; Chris Young, Padres; Jeff Francis, Rockies; Doug Davis and Livan Hernandez, Diamondbacks; Derek Lowe, Dodgers; and the perennial captain of this team, Roy Oswalt, Astros.

Mister Coaster 08-06-2007 11:42 AM

OK, so there are pitchers with good ERA's and poor W-L records. So what? I think that proves my point better than anything. Thanks for that. I'm sure there is an article out there somewhere that points to pitchers with high ERA's and good W-L records. All this shows me is that the only stat worth any salt is the run support behind them.

Bottom line is, it was supposed to be a tight race in the AL West between the A's and Angels, it's not. The A's are currently 12 games back, and in no shape to make a playoff run. They won the AL West last season... with pitchers that they traded away. Ummmm... yeah....

kutulu 08-06-2007 01:48 PM

First of all, the A's didn't trade any pitching away last season. They lost Zito to free agency and that was NOT a loss. Despite losing Harden, they have one of the best pitching staffs in MLB.

In case you are unaware, it takes more than pitching to win games. The A's suck because they can't score runs. Period. It has absolutely nothing to do with the pitching staff and to say that their pitching staff isn't as good as it was the year before shows that you don't understand the game that well.

Mister Coaster 08-06-2007 07:17 PM

Reading back in this topic, its obvious "you know more" about baseball than any other TFP'er... so I'll let it go. Good luck to your D'backs.

Kadath 08-07-2007 04:45 AM

The American League Central is playing like trash right now. The Tigers are 2-8 in their last ten and the Indians have only been able to achieve a half game lead. Depressing!

kutulu 08-07-2007 10:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mister Coaster
Reading back in this topic, its obvious "you know more" about baseball than any other TFP'er... so I'll let it go. Good luck to your D'backs.

I'm sorry I came off like that, I definitely don't want to come across as someone who thinks he knows everything because I totally don't. I get very passionate when I see people talking about W-L records and drawing conclusions about actual pitching performances.

djtestudo 08-08-2007 04:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mister Coaster
Yeah them, a pitching staff isn't just about ERA. Its about too many things to list, and the A's had pitchers that did it, now they dont. Answer me this, is their pitching staff better now or was it better in 2006? Quote all the ERA stats you want, it's the W-L record that counts.

Bill James and Rob Neyer would like a word with you out in the parking lot ;)

Oakland has the third-best ERA in all of baseball this season (3.86), including the best starters' ERA (3.77). Their top three starter the last three years look like this:

2005:
Barry Zito (3.86), Joe Blanton (3.53), Dan Haren (3.73).

2006:
Barry Zito (3.83), Joe Blanton (4.84), Dan Haren (4.12).

2007:
Joe Blanton (3.71), Dan Haren (2.46), Chris Gaudin (4.18).

It seems to me that this season is the best of the three.

However, they are only on-pace to score 700 runs, which is 71 less then last season, 72 behind 2005, and 93 behind the pace of 2004, when they had the Big Three.

So, do you REALLY think they just don't have "it"?

Mister Coaster 08-08-2007 07:36 PM

Numbers, numbers, numbers! OK, how about this... As a fan of an AL West team, I was surprised to see the moves made by the A's on their pitching staff. Apparently these moves were made in a effort to improve it in one way or another. It would appear to a casual onlooker that these moves did not work, as the A's are now below .500 and doing their best to stay out of the AL West basement. However, if they were only looking to improve their top 3 pitcher's ERA's, and looking for quality starts, then they succeeded on that and have been failed by their offence.

Fair statements?

djtestudo 08-08-2007 07:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mister Coaster
Numbers, numbers, numbers! OK, how about this... As a fan of an AL West team, I was surprised to see the moves made by the A's on their pitching staff. Apparently these moves were made in a effort to improve it in one way or another. It would appear to a casual onlooker that these moves did not work, as the A's are now below .500 and doing their best to stay out of the AL West basement. However, if they were only looking to improve their top 3 pitcher's ERA's, and looking for quality starts, then they succeeded on that and have been failed by their offence.

Fair statements?

No, because it completely ignores the offensive numbers I posted. When your pitching is better and your offense is worse then another season, and you are losing more games then another season, which do you think has more of an effect?

Here are the top starters for this season and last season on offense:

2007
Code:

Pos Player              Ag  G  AB    R    H  2B 3B  HR  RBI  BB  SO  BA    OBP  SLG  SB  CS  GDP HBP  SH  SF IBB  OPS+
---+-------------------+--+----+----+----+----+---+--+---+----+---+----+-----+-----+-----+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+----+
C  Jason Kendall      33  80  292  24  66  10  0  2  22  12  27  .226  .261  .281  3  1  7  3  2  3  0  46
1B *Dan Johnson        27  83  291  36  68  17  1  11  41  52  50  .234  .350  .412  0  0  9  2  0  4  4  104
2B  Mark Ellis          30  105  401  51  106  20  1  15  52  30  65  .264  .327  .431  7  2  7  9  2  3  0  102
3B *Eric Chavez        29  90  341  43  82  21  2  15  46  34  76  .240  .306  .446  4  2  9  0  0  4  2  99
SS  Bobby Crosby        27  93  349  40  79  16  0  8  31  23  62  .226  .278  .341  10  2  11  2  0  0  1  66
LF  Shannon Stewart    33  101  392  54  117  13  0  9  35  35  43  .298  .360  .401  10  1  12  3  1  0  0  105
CF *Mark Kotsay        31  51  190  19  43  14  0  1  20  18  17  .226  .292  .316  1  1  4  0  0  1  2  64
RF *Travis Buck        23  75  257  36  71  18  4  7  31  36  64  .276  .367  .459  3  1  9  3  2  4  2  121
DH *Jack Cust          28  77  238  36  62  11  0  17  51  55  98  .261  .397  .521  0  2  4  1  0  3  0  145

2006
Code:

Pos Player              Ag  G  AB    R    H  2B 3B  HR  RBI  BB  SO  BA    OBP  SLG  SB  CS  GDP HBP  SH  SF IBB  OPS+
---+-------------------+--+----+----+----+----+---+--+---+----+---+----+-----+-----+-----+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+----+
C  Jason Kendall      32  143  552  76  163  23  0  1  50  53  54  .295  .367  .342  11  5  19  12  4  5  2  89
1B *Dan Johnson        26  91  286  30  67  13  1  9  37  40  45  .234  .323  .381  0  0  6  0  0  5  2  85
2B  Mark Ellis          29  124  441  64  110  25  1  11  52  40  76  .249  .319  .385  4  0  13  8  4  7  1  85
3B *Eric Chavez        28  137  485  74  117  24  2  22  72  84  100  .241  .351  .435  3  0  19  1  0  6  6  106
SS  Bobby Crosby        26  96  358  42  82  12  0  9  40  36  76  .229  .298  .338  8  1  11  0  2  2  1  68
LF #Nick Swisher        25  157  556  106  141  24  2  35  95  97  152  .254  .372  .493  1  2  13  11  2  6  7  126
CF *Mark Kotsay        30  129  502  57  138  29  3  7  59  44  55  .275  .332  .386  6  3  18  2  4  6  1  89
RF #Milton Bradley      28  96  351  53  97  14  2  14  52  51  65  .276  .370  .447  10  2  13  2  0  1  1  115
DH  Frank Thomas        38  137  466  77  126  11  0  39  114  81  81  .270  .381  .545  0  0  13  6  0  6  3  141

So, there has been a drop-off at catcher, third base, shortstop, all three outfield spots, and DH. Plus, Nick Swisher went from 35 home runs and a .865 OPS to on-pace for 21 home runs and an .823 OPS.

Like I said, better pitching vs. worse offense. Which is more at fault?

Mister Coaster 08-08-2007 08:11 PM

Did I or did I not say that they were failed by their offence? Yes I did. Did you bother to read my whole post?

djtestudo 08-08-2007 08:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mister Coaster
Did I or did I not say that they were failed by their offence? Yes I did. Did you bother to read my whole post?

"As a fan of an AL West team, I was surprised to see the moves made by the A's on their pitching staff. Apparently these moves were made in a effort to improve it in one way or another. It would appear to a casual onlooker that these moves did not work, as the A's are now below .500 and doing their best to stay out of the AL West basement. However, if they were only looking to improve their top 3 pitcher's ERA's, and looking for quality starts, then they succeeded on that and have been failed by their offence."

You are still insinuating that the pitching is the problem, although now it is because they were only trying to improve the pitching as opposed to suggesting the pitching itself is faulty.

Mister Coaster 08-08-2007 08:29 PM

I insinuate that because it is my opinion that the moves were wrong to begin with. Actual performance is outdoing years past, which surprises me. Did the A's make the right moves, yes, you have proved that long ago.

Look at it from my "uninformed viewpoint." I saw what I thought was a mistake. The A's then go in the tank. Thats all.

kutulu 08-23-2007 08:05 AM

Webb's scoreless inning streak ended last night in the first inning. He went 42 1/3 innings without allowing a run. Not too bad.

Kadath 08-24-2007 11:32 AM

I liked the Rangers beating the Orioles 30-3, that was pretty amusing.

QuasiMondo 08-24-2007 07:06 PM

There is nothing scarier than Billy Wagner
Quote:

Handed a four-run lead in the ninth, Billy Wagner gave up three singles to load the bases with one out before pitching coach Rick Peterson came out for a visit. Jeff Kent hit a sacrifice fly, and Wagner struck out Andre Ethier with runners at the corners to end it.
Why must we go through this every night? For once I'd like to turn the TV off in the 9th inning and go to bed secure in the knowledge that the Mets have a victory well in hand, but nooooooooo, Wagner just can't do that for them. It's as I read some guy say in another forum, the bullpen makes every team they play against look like the '27 Yankees. Can we get relievers that can take batters down 1-2-3 and not squander seven solid innings from the starter? If Omar Minaya doesn't shop for middle relievers and closers this offseason, there's going to be hell to pay.

kutulu 08-25-2007 10:39 AM

Closers are held to such ridiculous standards. Have you even bothered to check his stats or do you just know it because you see it? Wagner has held batters to a .578 OPS, has a WHIP just over 1, a 2.05 ERA, and has converted 90% of his save chances. That is AWESOME.

kutulu 09-04-2007 12:33 PM

Big surprise, the DBacks are in the middle of another slump. Goddammit they really piss me off. There is no consistency on the team whatsoever. At least there are still about 25 games left. The down times usually last about 10 games when they can't hit, can't pitch, and can't field. Then they go and take 9 of 12 when they can't do anything wrong. Fucking young players.

kutulu 09-07-2007 02:04 PM

Two new PED users outed:

Rick Ankiel, HGH

Troy Glaus, steroids

In Ankiel's case, HGH was not banned by MLB at the time so he may be alright. Glaus isn't so lucky, his stuff was sent to him after steroids were banned. This will be interesting.

QuasiMondo 09-07-2007 05:19 PM

Interesting article about steroids, HGH, and double standards:

Jayson Stark - Exposing Our Double Standards   click to show 


If cheating is cheating, why are we quick to give Ankiel a pass?

Anybody watching Atl/Was? Halfway through the 7th inning and Smoltz is pitching a no-hitter. I'd love to see him finish this one out.

kutulu 09-07-2007 10:52 PM

I think I've been pretty consistent in my views about PEDs. If they were using before MLB banned the substance I don't really give a crap. If they continued use or started up after the ban then nail them.

djtestudo 09-10-2007 07:08 AM

Another...Gibbons received banned drugs.

If you have seen Jay Gibbons' health issues and physical changes over his career, then this surprises you about as much as finding out that Barry Bonds actually IS a jerk.

Mister Coaster 09-10-2007 08:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kutulu
Closers are held to such ridiculous standards.

Very true, and I agree, but consider a few things...

1. When a closer comes in, the game has essentially already been won (OK it hasn't but that's the way a typical fan sees it) All a closer has to do is get 3 outs.

2. A closer ALWAYS knows when he will be coming in, there is no guesswork as far as warming up goes. Therefore he should be well warmed up and ready to go.

3. A closer usually has the best "stuff" of the entire pitching staff. If not the "best" they usually have an above average fastball and an equally good "other" pitch to make outs with.

That all adds up to "we should win" whenever the closer comes in. Obviously getting 3 outs in the Majors is much easier said than done. But looking at the closer's role vs. all that they have going for them, it's obvious why fans are upset whenever a closer blows a save. I can really understand it as of late with K-Rod blowing #6 of the year the other night.

kutulu 09-13-2007 09:19 AM

So the season is over, anyone care to give out early picks for postseason awards?

NL MVP
1. Prince Fielder
2. David Wright
3. Eric Byrnes

AL MVP
1. ARod
2. no point in listing anyone else

NL CYA
1. Peavy
2. Webb

AL CYA
1. CC Sabathia
2. Beckett

NL ROY (lots of great rookies in the NL this year)
1. Ryan Braun
2. James Loney

AL ROY (not many good candidates)
1. Dustin Pedoria
2. Brian Bannister

I don't know the AL managers well enough to pick a MOY for them but Bob Melvin seems like a clear winner in the NL.

pan6467 09-13-2007 10:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mister Coaster
Very true, and I agree, but consider a few things...

1. When a closer comes in, the game has essentially already been won (OK it hasn't but that's the way a typical fan sees it) All a closer has to do is get 3 outs.

2. A closer ALWAYS knows when he will be coming in, there is no guesswork as far as warming up goes. Therefore he should be well warmed up and ready to go.

3. A closer usually has the best "stuff" of the entire pitching staff. If not the "best" they usually have an above average fastball and an equally good "other" pitch to make outs with.

That all adds up to "we should win" whenever the closer comes in. Obviously getting 3 outs in the Majors is much easier said than done. But looking at the closer's role vs. all that they have going for them, it's obvious why fans are upset whenever a closer blows a save. I can really understand it as of late with K-Rod blowing #6 of the year the other night.

I have to add to your list..... the closer has to mentally tougher than the majority of ballplayers.

If he goes out and gives up a 3 run homer and blows the save and loses the game, he has to have that mindset that allows him to totally blow that night off so he can come in the next night and get the save and win.

The #1 killer of all closers isn't his arm, shoulder or age, it's that mental toughness, that being able to be a goat one night and a hero the next.

That is why it's truly hard to find those great closers that will save 40+ games year in and year out.

(SP have 4-5 days at least to overcome getting shelled, regular RP take solace that there are others in the pen that can come and save them and be called upon the next day. Position players, they know they'll have 0 for games and they'll commit a couple errors. Very rarely though do they commit them and cost the game in the final inning and the fans, don't truly hound the position players.)

Now the career pinch hitter was always what I considered the hardest position. Closers at least get to warmup in the pen. Back in the day, Rusty Staub used to have to come out cold, no warm up at bats, with the game on the line and be expected to move the runner. And he was one of the best at it. Yet, as a position player.... he pretty much sucked and his BA wasn't all that great.

(The DH, he gets a few times up.... he's "warm".)

Glory's Sun 09-13-2007 10:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kutulu
So the season is over, anyone care to give out early picks for postseason awards?

NL MVP
1. Prince Fielder
2. David Wright
3. Eric Byrnes

AL MVP
1. ARod
2. no point in listing anyone else

NL CYA
1. Peavy
2. Webb

AL CYA
1. CC Sabathia
2. Beckett

NL ROY (lots of great rookies in the NL this year)
1. Ryan Braun
2. James Loney

AL ROY (not many good candidates)
1. Dustin Pedoria
2. Brian Bannister

I don't know the AL managers well enough to pick a MOY for them but Bob Melvin seems like a clear winner in the NL.

I'll go with most of your picks with the exception of the AL CY. I think (unfortunately) Wang will get the nod over Beckett simply because of the yankee's comeback and the rest of their shit staff.

I only hope Pedoria doesn't win the AL Rookie .. that thing is just like the Heisman.. it's cursed.

AL MOY .. well that would be Francona :D

kutulu 09-13-2007 11:43 AM

Wang very well could but if it isn't Sabathia it should be Beckett. Even Escobar is a better choice than Wang. Santana would be a great choice but if think (in a figurative sense of course) like the voters do, Santana has too many losses.

I just think there is nothing spectacular about Wang. He doesn't strike batters out, his ERA is really high for a CYA winner (14th in the AL), he doesn't do a great job at keeping runners off base, and he probably won't get 200 innings (IMO something that is almost a requirement to me).

No bias there about Francona, right? :thumbsup:

Mister Coaster 09-13-2007 01:28 PM

Come on, you know Panella deserves manager of the year EVERY YEAR!! The guy is PURE entertainment!

QuasiMondo 09-17-2007 05:51 PM

The Mets have obviously forgotten how to play the game of baseball.

pan6467 09-17-2007 10:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by guccilvr
I'll go with most of your picks with the exception of the AL CY. I think (unfortunately) Wang will get the nod over Beckett simply because of the yankee's comeback and the rest of their shit staff.

I only hope Pedoria doesn't win the AL Rookie .. that thing is just like the Heisman.. it's cursed.

AL MOY .. well that would be Francona :D

ROY I think should be Garko. But he misses by 36 AB. if he had just had 149 AB last year instead of 185 he would be eligible..... unfortunately....

Cy Young I can see Sabathia and Carmona going 1 and 3 in voting.

It won't be Francona.... he was expected to win. If anything the Bosox and he haven't lived up to what they should have done. If he wins, it is solely because he is from Boston and not how he ran the team.

MOY I see Wedge, anyone thinking the Indians would have the second best record in the Majors early on, was either smoking something back then or is lying now. Wedge and Shapiro both built this team and have gotten the best out of each player.

I see Shapiro getting executive/GM of the year.

Of course it all depends on how far the Tribe goes, but come on, Carmona and CC have had great fucking years and there isn't a better 1-2 combo in baseball. Hell, you add Westbrook and Byrd from the All star break you have one of the best and deepest pitching staffs since the mid '90's Braves.

Then of course the Indians do better than the Braves because of the offense (90's ATL had no fucking offense to save their ass.... that's why they only could win 1 WS).

The bad thing about all this is IF the Indians go all the way and win the WS... I see Sabathia gone to FA in '09, if not by trading deadline next year. However, if the Indians advance but not that far, I see Sabathia re-signing because he wants a ring and to play for a winning team more than anything.

Glory's Sun 09-18-2007 06:41 AM

Yeah I was joking about Francona..

The Bo'Sox are doing what they always do.. giving us fans heart attacks.

After watching Beckett and Wang go head to head, I'm giving the CY to Beckett. Considering the improvement over last year, he's more than deserving. That isn't to say that Sabathia hasn't been brilliant.. but for me it goes to Beckett.. with a little bias ;)

Looking back at the thread I was one who never would have thought the Indians would be in the position they are. However, I wonder just what they will do in the playoffs.. part of me says one and done.. the other part of me is a little worried.

Kadath 09-18-2007 07:52 AM

I loved waking up this morning to find out the Indians had come back from being down 5-1. Those Detroit sons of a bitches are going down.

kutulu 09-18-2007 12:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by guccilvr
The Bo'Sox are doing what they always do.. giving us fans heart attacks.

Boston fans aren't alone. Me and my fellow DBacks fans are going crazy right now. The division lead is down to 1 game.

Glory's Sun 09-19-2007 09:23 AM

Now who was it that was trying to comfort me about the Gange trade??

Mother Fucking Eric Gagne can't pitch in the 8th inning to save his goddamn mother's life.

Go back to Texas you overrated piece of shit.

/end rant.

QuasiMondo 09-19-2007 07:25 PM

Oh my gawd, the Mets finally win a game! With Mike Pelfrey at that! What is this world coming to?

kutulu 09-19-2007 11:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by guccilvr
Now who was it that was trying to comfort me about the Gange trade??

Mother Fucking Eric Gagne can't pitch in the 8th inning to save his goddamn mother's life.

Go back to Texas you overrated piece of shit.

/end rant.

I haven't see him pitch in Boston. How are his mechanics/velocity/etc.? Does he appear injured? I almost guarantee he was a steroid user. He has all the trademark signs.

Glory's Sun 09-20-2007 06:23 AM

His mechanics and velocity appear to be ok..

He blames it on the fact he's trying to do too much.

All I know is that he fucking sucks since he came to Boston.

Of course, the rest of Boston's bullpen hasn't exactly been stellar lately. It's so sickening. It's like the skankees and bo'sox traded places in how their pitching staffs are performing.

The_Jazz 09-20-2007 06:54 AM

The Cubs have been in first for 32 of the last 34 games. They're one game up now.

Look for me by the visitor's dugout tomorrow afternoon (section 46, row 3). I'll be the guy in blue talking trash to the relief pitchers. I may (or may not) be as drunk as guccilvr.

Mister Coaster 09-20-2007 07:28 AM

Gagne is damaged goods. Tommy John surgery twice? Yeah, good luck being the same pitcher after that. I had a feeling that it was a mistake for anyone to pick him up, especially BoSox at/near the deadline. I guess he did OK in Texas, but with his history of injury... seemed like a big gamble to me.

dylanmarsh 09-20-2007 06:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kutulu
Boston fans aren't alone. Me and my fellow DBacks fans are going crazy right now. The division lead is down to 1 game.

I ran into Brynes at the Scottsdale Fashion Square, earlier today. Although a brief conversation, he guaranteed me the Dbacks would make the playoffs.

QuasiMondo 09-20-2007 07:07 PM

I am completely disgusted with the Mets.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I'm no fair-weather fan. I've held out hope for them. I've endured their monthlong June slump. I've driven myself crazy going through the familiar routine of watching a starter put in six good innings, and have it all go down the drain in one inning by their bullpen. I've even become accustomed to watching Heilman or Wagner open the door and usher the other team right back into the game with a home run in the ninth inning.

I thought they had their turnaround moment when they got swept by Philadelphia last week and then go on a tear to sweep Atlanta. I even shrugged off a second sweep by the Phillies and the near sweep by Washington. But after watching last night's game where they blew two 3-run leads, I'm done. That game had me so upset that I had a dream where I bumped into Willie Randolph in the city and flipped out on him. Time and time again, sloppy defense, sluggish batting, horrendous relief pitching, or a combination of all three have allowed the Mets to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory. I can't watch them anymore this season, I'm throwing in the towel.

I haven't given up on the Mets, the Mets have given up on themselves.

And I don't want to hear shit from the Red Sox nation. Even if Boston loses the AL East to the Yankees, they're still going to the playoffs with a wild card spot. The Mets have no safety net.

I feel better now.

The_Jazz 09-21-2007 04:52 AM

The magic number is 9....

If anyone's looking for me this afternoon, I'll be in Section 46, Row 3 at Wrigley this afternoon hoping that the Pirates roll over and play dead.

If the Mets played the Red Sox now, who would manage to lose?

Glory's Sun 09-21-2007 06:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The_Jazz

If the Mets played the Red Sox now, who would manage to lose?

who knows..they'd play for a week before someone finally stepped up.


Both bullpens are shit right now.

I can't believe I'm getting smack from a fucking Cubs fan.

The_Jazz 09-21-2007 06:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by guccilvr
I can't believe I'm getting smack from a fucking Cubs fan.

Believe it, baby. All I know is that this is the year and I BELIEVE.

I expect to get kicked in the sack by these fucks in 3, 2, 1.... I was at the Bartman game and that still hurts. I cut way back on the number of games that I've been to this year because of the debacle that was 2006.

Is it possible that the 2007 Red Sox are the equivalent of the 2007 Notre Dame football team? Well, that's not really a fair analogy since the Sox DID win some games. Maybe they're more like every other Red Sox team minus the 04 version.

QuasiMondo 09-21-2007 07:12 AM

You'd just better hope Steve Bartelman isn't in the stands :)

The_Jazz 09-21-2007 07:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by QuasiMondo
You'd just better hope Steve Bartelman isn't in the stands :)

Who the fuck is Steve Bartelman?

Do you mean Steve Bartman? If you do, then I'd happily sit next to him. Moises Alou not so much since he ruined Bartman's life, but Bartman would be fine as far as I'm concerned.

Gonzales cost us Game 6 on the next play when he booted that ball, not Bartman. Bartman was just the distraction from what happened on the field.

Glory's Sun 09-21-2007 07:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The_Jazz
Believe it, baby. All I know is that this is the year and I BELIEVE.

I expect to get kicked in the sack by these fucks in 3, 2, 1.... I was at the Bartman game and that still hurts. I cut way back on the number of games that I've been to this year because of the debacle that was 2006.

Is it possible that the 2007 Red Sox are the equivalent of the 2007 Notre Dame football team? Well, that's not really a fair analogy since the Sox DID win some games. Maybe they're more like every other Red Sox team minus the 04 version.


Holy fucking shit. I can't believe you'd actually compare us to Notre Dame. WTF.

I seem to recall a college football team this year that lost to Cal and Florida. Ha.

Like every other Red Sox team..pfft. I guess I'll just say the Cubbies are just like every other cubbies team.. they look like champs until it really counts and they'll fucking choke and be one and done.

Give me a series between the Cubbies and Bo'Sox.. please..oh pretty please. You'd be eating your feet big boy.

:D

Mister Coaster 09-21-2007 09:01 AM

We interrupt this bithcy fan-boy bore-fest to announce that my Angels are currently the proud owners of the best record in baseball, and have the opportunity to be the first team to clinch their division with a win tonight over the Crash&Burners, oops, I mean the Mariners.

kutulu 09-21-2007 09:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dylanmarsh
I ran into Brynes at the Scottsdale Fashion Square, earlier today. Although a brief conversation, he guaranteed me the Dbacks would make the playoffs.

I've finally come around to Brynes this year but he needs to step up, fast. He had a .651 OPS in August and currently has a .798 OPS in September. As of now, it is highly improbable that they don't at least get the Wild Card. With 9 left to play, that is pretty safe.

Quote:

Originally Posted by The_Jazz
Who the fuck is Steve Bartelman?

Do you mean Steve Bartman? If you do, then I'd happily sit next to him. Moises Alou not so much since he ruined Bartman's life, but Bartman would be fine as far as I'm concerned.

Gonzales cost us Game 6 on the next play when he booted that ball, not Bartman. Bartman was just the distraction from what happened on the field.

It's good to hear that. Bartman was a scapegoat for a total collapse. Terrible management by Dusty.

Ilow 09-21-2007 11:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The_Jazz
Believe it, baby. All I know is that this is the year and I BELIEVE.

I expect to get kicked in the sack by these fucks in 3, 2, 1.... I was at the Bartman game and that still hurts. I cut way back on the number of games that I've been to this year because of the debacle that was 2006.

Is it possible that the 2007 Red Sox are the equivalent of the 2007 Notre Dame football team? Well, that's not really a fair analogy since the Sox DID win some games. Maybe they're more like every other Red Sox team minus the 04 version.

Holy shiite, are you freakin nuts? I, naturally agree with gucc. on this one. yes, the team with the best record in baseball for 95% of the season is the equivalent to one of the worst NCAA D1 football teams. You should not be allowed to watch sports. Actually you should be made to watch sports. Cubs games in particular. I'd say this Cubs team is exactly the same as every other Cubs team, minus the 1908 version.

The_Jazz 09-21-2007 04:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ilow
Holy shiite, are you freakin nuts? I, naturally agree with gucc. on this one. yes, the team with the best record in baseball for 95% of the season is the equivalent to one of the worst NCAA D1 football teams. You should not be allowed to watch sports. Actually you should be made to watch sports. Cubs games in particular. I'd say this Cubs team is exactly the same as every other Cubs team, minus the 1908 version.

:cry:

You know how to get under the skin of ANY sports fan ANYWHERE? Compare their team to the current ND offering.

I'm in Chicago. As Gucci alluded to, I'm a big UT fan, and we've gotten our ass spanked a couple of times this year.

We're still better than ND, and it tickles me pink to say that in this town. I can also say that we're better than Michigan and not have to lie TOOOOO mcuh.

By the way, that's 13-8, bitches. For all of you watching at home, I was the guy in the green shirt and sunglasses for all the left-handed batters. Magic number is 8 as of now.

I BELIEVE.


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