Duke lacrosse team rape accusations - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

wwcd101 · 04-12-2006, 10:57 AM

I'm not sure this thread belongs in Tilted Sports, but let's start it here.

This thing is a mess... and it is interesting on many fronts. Here's what i'd like to start with.

Obviously, this is good example of why its not a great idea to 1) hire strippers for a party and/or 2) be a stripper for hire to private parties. Crazy things can, and do, happen.

Anyway, DNA evidence is a pretty new thing. Yesterday, when i heard that all the kids tested negative, i thought OK, good. Everybody' cleared. Today, i heard that the DA said, no... the DNA was not definitive and the case was going to continue.

So, help me, I'm confused. If you have to be guilt beyond a shadow of a doubt (think OJ), isn't a negative DNA test automatically, by definition, a significant doubt?

Thanks for listening.

Daniel_ · 04-12-2006, 11:10 AM

A test that comes up blank doesn't prove a particular person innocent.

A test that comes up with a real match to an unknown DNA profile may exonerate a suspect, but if there's multiple rapes involved (i.e. a woman says she was screwed by two guys) then all DNA testing can do is count people IN.

Think of it like fingerprints - find a print and you know that the owner of the print was certainly there. Find nothing and you know nothing.

Redlemon · 04-12-2006, 11:16 AM

Quote:

He added that in 75 percent to 80 percent of sexual assaults, there is no DNA evidence to analyze,

according to any article about the Duke case today. I'm not sure what that means, especially out of context. I would assume that there was semen collected from the medical exam of the rape victim, otherwise they wouldn't have done the DNA test.

Glory's Sun · 04-12-2006, 11:45 AM

I think the dna tests came from pubic hairs or other areas. I think now that DNA is so widely used that in almost every rape case some sort of DNA testing will be done. I'm not really sure how to feel about this whole issue. I hate how the media is claiming some big race war that is going to happen. I don't think that's an issue at all. With the lack of charges and arrests I think the DA's office is scrambling to really find something. If the kids are guilty I hate it for the university considering their reputation and for the girl. If they are innocent, I hate it for the university's reputation alone.

I was pretty surprised at how quickly the defense came out saying that the DNA and pictures showed the kids were innocent. Supposedly, this would have stayed behind closed doors if they defense didn't go public. :shrug:

maximusveritas · 04-12-2006, 03:48 PM

The lack of DNA evidence doesn't exonerate them, but it does make it much tougher for the police and DA to figure out which 3 of them were actually involved in the crime. He says they have good evidence that the crime occurred. It's just a matter of figuring out who did and that's usually the hard part.

wwcd101 · 04-13-2006, 07:00 AM

I always get a little crosseyed trying to decipher the true meaning of the term sexual assult.

Can't we say definitively, if a rapist had vaginal intercouse with their victim, regardless of whether they ejaculate, it leaves DNA evidence?

Thanks for listening.

The_Jazz · 04-13-2006, 07:17 AM

I think that it depends on what evidence they (CSI) manage to collect, i.e. if they can find actual semen or body hairs not belonging to the victim. Also, a DNA test is not a test for latex or lubricants, which I'm sure would be done too to see if there was a condom present.

djtestudo · 04-13-2006, 08:06 AM

This all is getting stranger and stranger.

Despite my visceral hatred of Duke University athletics, I don't wish this on anybody, even their men's basketball team.

I hope that this ends with someone prosecuted, whether it is someone who actually performed the rape, or the "victim" who made a false accusation.

This is just a complete shame.

Glory's Sun · 04-13-2006, 10:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by djtestudo

This all is getting stranger and stranger.

Despite my visceral hatred of Duke University athletics, I don't wish this on anybody, even their men's basketball team.

I hope that this ends with someone prosecuted, whether it is someone who actually performed the rape, or the "victim" who made a false accusation.

This is just a complete shame.

It is <i>very</i> strange. Something just doesn't add up to me. I'm starting to think that maybe the girl made a bad call then called rape after the fact. (I surely hope no rape happend) If she was raped... then the little rich kids may get a taste of their own medicine.

The_Jazz · 04-13-2006, 10:24 AM

It's hard to take sides on this one, isn't it?

Glory's Sun · 04-13-2006, 10:34 AM

It really is. I love Duke University, but there's no way that will affect my disdain for the kids if they did rape her.

SteelyLoins · 04-13-2006, 06:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The_Jazz

It's hard to take sides on this one, isn't it?

It wasn't hard for me. The minute I heard that the entire team (except for the black guy, since the accusation said the assailants were white) immediately submitted their DNA, I knew no team members had raped the alleged victim.

I was subsequently unsurprised in the least that the DNA tests came back negative.

Then I heard the other stripper couldn't/wouldn't corroborate the story.

Then there's this:

Link

Quote:

Alleged Lacrosse Rape Victim 'Just Passed-Out Drunk,' Officer Says In Tape

POSTED: 4:51 pm EDT April 13, 2006
UPDATED: 8:18 pm EDT April 13, 2006

DURHAM, N.C. -- A woman who claims she was raped by three members of Duke University's men's lacrosse team was described as "just passed-out drunk" by one of the first police officers to see her, according to a recording of radio traffic released Thursday.

The conversation between the officer and a police dispatcher took place about 1:30 a.m. March 14, about five minutes after a grocery store security guard called 911 to report a woman in the parking lot who would not get out of someone else's car.

The officer gave the dispatcher the police code for an intoxicated person. When asked whether the woman needed medical help, the officer said: "She's breathing and appears to be fine. She's not in distress. She's just passed out drunk."

The black woman, a 27-year-old stripper, told police she was raped and beaten by three white men around midnight at an off-campus party thrown by Duke's lacrosse team. The racially charged allegations have led Duke to cancel the highly ranked team's season and accept the resignation of its coach.

Grand Jury Could Hear Allegations Monday

Defense attorneys representing some of the 46 lacrosse athletes, who submitted DNA samples last month to authorities, met with Durham County District Attorney Mike Nifong Thursday. They believe Nifong will submit some players' names to the grand jury.

"Obviously, that means three young men who we believe didn't do anything are going to be charged with extremely serious felonies," said Durham defense attorney Kerry Sutton.

The lacrosse athletes have maintained that there was no sex and no assault at the party. DNA test results released Monday back up the denial. None of the 46 samples, defense attorneys said, matched any evidence authorities took from the victim or the house where the alleged assault happened.

Nifong, who is running for election in May, bases his belief that a crime occurred on the alleged victim's medical exam, which court documents state found injuries consistent with rape and sexual assault.

Typically, the grand jury, comprised of 18 anonymous citizens, is presented evidence by the lead investigator and only hears the prosecution's side of the case. In this situation, jurors will likely read the victim's statement, see the hospital report and view pictures of possible injuries.

The jurors must then decide whether there is enough evidence to pursue charges against the accused.

Sutton worries that all the media exposure and public protests will weigh heavily on the jurors' decision.

"Would they be swayed by seeing coverage on-air of neighborhoods up in arms and the N.C. Central campus up in arms? Does that sway them? I think they're human, and it probably would," Sutton said.

Other than a forum this week at North Carolina Central University and a district attorney candidates forum Wednesday night, Nifong has not spoken publicly about the case. He has not granted a substantive interview in more than a week, even declining to clarify remarks he made at the N.C. Central forum that left some defense attorneys confused about where the case stands.

For example, Nifong said at the forum "there was no identification of any member of that lacrosse team until last week." But it was uncler whether he was referring to a positive identification made by the alleged victim, or the release of a search warrant that included an e-mail sent by a lacrosse player, who was identified in the warrant.

Defense attorney Bill Thomas said earlier this week that Nifong's case is without merit, citing the DNA results and information that a second dancer at the party on the night in question is not backing up the rape allegation.

There has been no official word on whether Nifong intends to present the allegations Monday. His next opportunity would come two weeks later.

I'm not having any difficulty forming an opinion.

As an added bonus, when I see activists demanding that the DA make arrests, I have to wonder whom they want to see arrested. The entire team? Just the people she identifies, when there is NO supporting evidence?

This smells, all right.

maximusveritas · 04-14-2006, 09:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SteelyLoins

It wasn't hard for me. The minute I heard that the entire team (except for the black guy, since the accusation said the assailants were white) immediately submitted their DNA, I knew no team members had raped the alleged victim.

You make it sound like they cooperated with police and voluntarily submitted their DNA. They didn't. They weren't cooperating, which is why the police was forced to issue a non-testimonial order. Also, keep in mind that all the information coming out in recent days is coming directly from the defense attorneys, so you have to take it with a grain of salt. We don't know what evidence the DA has, but he clearly has something. It is impossible to honestly make a judgement one way or another on this.

Glory's Sun · 04-18-2006, 04:51 AM

I haven't had a chance to hear or read the full story yet, but on this mornings news, I saw that two kids turned themselves in about 4:55 am this morning. I also missed an interview with the second stripper. I think it may come down to her testimony if anything. Of course with kids turning themselves in.. who knows what happend. I just know that I'm dissapointed in this whole thing. When you hear something like this, you expect it to be the University of Colorado, not Duke.

I just hope the right stories come out and justice comes swiftly for whatever happend.

Redlemon · 04-18-2006, 06:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by guccilvr

I haven't had a chance to hear or read the full story yet, but on this mornings news, I saw that two kids turned themselves in about 4:55 am this morning.

They may have turned themselves in, but it was based on an indictment, and they say that they are innocent.

2 Duke lacrosse players arrested - Duke lacrosse rape scandal - MSNBC.com

Quote:

Originally Posted by excerpt

Seligmann, a 6-foot-1 sophomore from Essex Fells, N.J., and Finnerty, a 6-foot-3 sophomore from Garden City, N.Y., were led out of a police cruiser in handcuffs, one wearing a tie and jacket, the other in a button-down shirt and jeans.

Seligmann is “absolutely innocent,” said his attorney, Kirk Osborn. “He’s doing great. That’s all I have to say.”

Asked what led to the indictments, Osborn said: “Apparently it was a photographic identification. And we all know how reliable that is.”

Finnerty’s attorney, Bill Cotter, said, “We’re surprised that anybody got indicted, quite frankly.”

Glory's Sun · 04-18-2006, 07:19 AM

The one thing I hope doesn't happen is that this DA just goes ahead gung ho knowing that there is a pending election. Don't get me wrong, if the kids did it, then put them where they belong, if they didn't then drop the case and let them move on.

If it was just a picture identification, then that's really not much to go on. DNA has been issued and nothing was there, I want to see the pictures and if the girl was really intoxicated when she arrived. I guess it's all up to Motion of Discovery now.

crossova · 04-18-2006, 08:25 AM

Did i hear correctly this morning that she now says she was raped with a broomstick. i dont know if that was the only object allegedly inserted into her.

but no matter what happens right now, i pray that this doesnt turn into another Tawana Brawley case

Glory's Sun · 04-19-2006, 03:16 AM

I haven't heard the broomstick story.

This case gets uglier and uglier by the day. We have defense attorneys really swinging for the knockout. They say they have pictures, and no dna. Now they claim that they have concrete evidence that the two charged weren't even at the house when the rape supposedly took place. They are also starting to question the "victims" (only in quotes because we don't know if she was raped or not yet) credibility. The "victim" has several felonies including a stolen car, felony assault on a government official and felony eluding arrest.

Something else that I want to note, is the even if the medical report states that she has injuries consistent with sexual assault, that does not mean it happend at that house. According to one report, she did leave the house and came back later. Something just doesn't add up in this case, (of course I don't know all the details) I guess we'll have to wait and see what the more detailed DNA tests say when they come back today.

As for now, I'm trying to hold a non-partisan stance, but it seems I'm leaning towards the kids defense.

stevo · 04-19-2006, 08:09 AM

Its only a matter of time before the boys are cleared.

http://abclocal.go.com/wtvd/story?se...cal&id=4091290

Quote:

(04/18/06 -- DURHAM) - Eyewitness News and the ABC News law-and-justice unit are getting a chance to examine time-stamped photos taken inside the home on the night of the controversial Duke lacrosse party.

The photos are believed to be authentic and taken by one of the students at the March 13 party. The time stamps on the photos appear to be accurate. Pictures of a wristwatch magnified for clarity correspond with the time on the photos. The players are sitting on three couches in a semicircle with the dancers in the middle.

11:02 p.m.: The first picture shows at least 10 students hanging out in a living room, apparently waiting for the dancers to arrive. Most of the students appear to be drinking. By the number of people in this photo, it appears only a fraction of the 47 lacrosse team members are there.

12 a.m.: This is the first picture of the strippers. Students are watching the show, but not grabbing or attempting to touch the women. Bruises are clearly visible on the legs and thighs of the alleged victim.

12:00:40 a.m.: Another picture taken 40 seconds later shows bruises on the accuser's knees. Her right knee appears to have an open cut.

12:03:57 a.m.: About four minutes after arriving, a picture shows the strippers leaving the room. The photo clearly shows that the alleged victim left behind one of her shoes.

Between 12:10 a.m. and 12:30 a.m.: No photos were taken between this time.

12:30:12 a.m.: The next photo shows the alleged victim on the back porch, carrying what appears to be her purse and a makeup bag. Her clothes are intact.

12:30:47 a.m.: A photo taken 30 seconds later shows the alleged victim on the porch and she appears to smile.

12:31:26 a.m.: But 30 seconds after that, a photo shows the alleged victim stumbling down the back steps of the house.

12:37:58 a.m.: A series of photos are taken, all showing the woman lying on her left side on the back porch, seemingly passed out or asleep. She had visible cuts on her legs and buttocks that did not appear in the previous photos.

The cuts may be from falling. The cuts on her buttocks line up with the edge of a screen door she may have hit on the way down.

12:41 a.m.: The final photo shows the accuser and the second dancer in a black car. The accuser is in the passengers seat.

Many of the photos taken on the back porch show pink splotches, which the defense says is undried nail polish. They claim the accuser was polishing her nails in the bathroom between 12:10 a.m. and 12:30 a.m. - - not being raped.

The_Jazz · 04-19-2006, 08:42 AM

Stevo,

I don't know if this timeline especially exonorates anyone in and of itself. There's a 20 minute gap (12:10 to 12:30) that give more than ample time for a rape to occur. There's an accomanying timeline for one of the accused that has him at a bank at 12:24 and a cabbie that picked him up roughly 5 minutes before. That gives the guy basically 10 minutes, which I suppose is also ample time, although it doesn't make sense to call a cab, wait, rape the woman, then catch the cab.

The whole thing still stinks to high heavens on both sides.

Full disclosure time - a good friend's brother and friend were murdered in Raleigh about 2 years ago. This prosecutor (actually a deputy) successfully got put away one perpetrator for life and the other for 14+ years. Everything that I heard from my friend was only high praise for everyone in the office, including the boss. The guy apparently lives for putting bad guys away, and my friend finds it difficult to believe that he (the prosecutor) would grandstand for political gain.

The defense counsel for one of the murderers is highly involved in this case as well. I believe that the term that my friend used (and was later repeated by his father) is "absolute motherfucker". There were obviously some emotional scars here since son/brother/victim was only 22 and really did nothing wrong, but at one point my friend was talking about sueing the defense counsel because he was so angry. That's not going to happen, but my point is that some of the lawyers involved are both very good and very slick. In my friend's case, there was never really any doubt as guilt or not since there were dozens of witnesses and phone tap confessions, but there seems to be a crack of daylight in the rape case.

I'm going to repeat my thoughts from Post #10 - it's hard to take sides on this one.

Glory's Sun · 04-19-2006, 09:16 AM

The timeline doesn't clear anyone, but if bruises and such were on the girl before the alleged rape, that will damage the prosecution's argument considerably. Something else you may want to consider is that if the DA really had some weight to throw in this case, he wouldn't have gone to a closed grand jury. There would have been a preliminary hearing. I don't think I've ever seen a defense team come out swinging like this. To me that seems like they honestly know they have the knockout punch. Most defense lawyers would want this type of case to stay behind closed doors.. granted it could be a slick move on their part, but highly doubtful.

The_Jazz, of course your friend has high praise for the DA office. If my brother was killed and the DA got the perps sentenced to that kind of time, I'd praise him too. I still believe he's pulling some sort of political gain out of his ass with this one.

There are just way too many holes (at this point) for me to say the kids are guilty. I believe in Innocent until Proven Guilty, but alot of times you know when someone did something like this. The more I read, the more I hear, the more I believe the kids are innocent. I just hope I'm right.

wwcd101 · 04-21-2006, 05:20 AM

Like i said, this is a mess. It's complicated, somewhat emotionally unsettling and difficult to look away from (like a car accident).

Two general "stripper" questions. 1st, i don't have a lot of lifetime stripper hiring experience, but i've never seen a situation where the girls showed up without a body guard. Is this normal? 2nd, there seems to be evidence from several sources that the girl was loaded. Again, my experience is that the strippers always seemed under control, naked, but in control of themselves and the situation. Can we share some stripper experiences here?

Thanks for listening.

Glory's Sun · 04-21-2006, 06:16 AM

Stripper experiences: I've seen them come with and without body guards. More often than not they come with body guards.

The other stripper said that when they got there the girl seemed in control, but when they left she couldn't speak well or walk well. That could mean she got drunk there or something really did happen.

According to pictures, the stripper is seen with bruises and scrapes on her body on arrival. I think that is a huge key in this whole thing. If she showed up with injuries it could be that something happend before. Maybe not rape, but there has to be an explanation for the bruises.

If I were the defense.. I'd ask for a speedy trial as soon as the next round of DNA tests come back. If they get a speedy trial and the DA really doesn't have much, then the kids would be found not guilty or the case would be thrown out relativly fast.

Ustwo · 04-21-2006, 06:54 AM

The DA is up for re-election.

The thought is the charges will be dropped shortly after.

The_Jazz · 04-21-2006, 07:15 AM

I'm having trouble seeing why the DA would bring these charges on a weak case with an election looming. With all the holes that the defense is poking in the assumed facts, I've got to believe that either the DA knows something that hasn't been made public yet or that he's been lied to. This is too high profile of a case for the DA to indict on a whim, and if it blows up, people are going to remember it.

Let's also pause a second to remember that one of the defendants threated to rape both of the strippers with a broomstick and made racial threats. At least one of them is an asshole with some issues, although that's certainly not illegal.

Glory's Sun · 04-21-2006, 07:29 AM

I haven't heard that a defendant in question threatend to rape both of them with a broomstick. I have heard that one of the kids present suggested they use the broom as a sex toy. There is an issue there. Was it light hearted joking while a kid was drunk? Was it an actual threat? Who knows.

I think the DA had to do something. People took this allegation to the extreme around Durham. (I'm not far from Durham, so this is all I hear about all day) The public outrage (for no real reason) prompted the DA to make some sort of move. He may have felt that he was better off at least trying something than doing nothing especially right before election.

Remember, the DA was gungho about the DNA results because he "knew it would be bulletproof". When that didn't happen, what is he supposed to do? Well like any gungho over-anxious DA, you go to a closed Grand Jury session and get an indictment. Had the DA really had anything to get a firm conviction in this case, there would have been a preliminary hearing (can't remember the exact name of the hearing).

Now, like I said I am leaning towards the Boys in this case, but if something comes out to prove otherwise I will happily retract and support whatever sentence they receive.

Redlemon · 04-21-2006, 07:32 AM

I still don't have enough information to take a side, but

Quote:

Originally Posted by guccilvr

The other stripper said that when they got there the girl seemed in control, but when they left she couldn't speak well or walk well.

made me think "date rape drugs".

Also, were there no other men aside from the team members at this party? If there were a rape, could it have been somebody else in the house?

Glory's Sun · 04-21-2006, 07:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Redlemon

I still don't have enough information to take a side, but

made me think "date rape drugs".

Also, were there no other men aside from the team members at this party? If there were a rape, could it have been somebody else in the house?

From all the information I've heard there were no other men in the house. She did show up with bruises though and she did leave and come back.. so there's some holes there. Another thing I remember just now is that there is a cab driver statement saying he heard the girls say they were calling the cops. This poses a little bump for the defense but more than likely they will claim it was over something petty. Keep in mind she left her purse inside and had to go back in and get it. There are alot of holes in this case.. and it's getting nasty. As far as the date rape drugs go, I would think that some sort of test has already been done to find out what the girl had in her system. I think that's part of the whole rape kit testing they do. Not entirely sure though.

maximusveritas · 04-21-2006, 08:52 AM

There are holes because not everything has come out yet. I don't see the point in trying to judge a case based simply on what's come out in the media. It's better to wait until we get the full story.

heccubusiv · 04-21-2006, 02:55 PM

The sad part is, even if they are guilty there parents have millions of dollars and they will have the best laywers with unlimited funds. While the DA will have limited funds. I wonder how the case will change if a duke girl got raped by the minorities in the town. Its a sad in society when money and race will get your out of a crime. Not saying they did it, but if they did they should be punished, but it won't happen.

Glory's Sun · 04-24-2006, 03:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by heccubusiv

The sad part is, even if they are guilty there parents have millions of dollars and they will have the best laywers with unlimited funds. While the DA will have limited funds. I wonder how the case will change if a duke girl got raped by the minorities in the town. Its a sad in society when money and race will get your out of a crime. Not saying they did it, but if they did they should be punished, but it won't happen.

I'm <b>REALLY</b> tired of people making this into a race issue. I'm sick of it in the media, I'm sick of hearing in the bars and everywhere else I go. Now, don't think I'm jumping on you for what you think, I'm just making an observation. I don't think this has anything to do with race. If she was raped then she was raped and hopefully the kids will be punished. The families money doesn't really play a part in this role because (as of right now) there is no real evidence that can prove the girl was raped. By your statements, it seems like you are putting some sort of 'they are guilty' twist on it. I may be off on that assesment, correct me if you wish.

highthief · 04-24-2006, 03:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by heccubusiv

The sad part is, even if they are guilty there parents have millions of dollars and they will have the best laywers with unlimited funds. While the DA will have limited funds. I wonder how the case will change if a duke girl got raped by the minorities in the town. Its a sad in society when money and race will get your out of a crime. Not saying they did it, but if they did they should be punished, but it won't happen.

Or it's sad when a black girl falsely cries rape hoping to obtain an enormous cash settlement from a wealthy school and its students.

The_Jazz · 04-24-2006, 04:35 AM

Posts #1-32 for an excellent example why criminal cases should never be tried in the media. No one here, with the sole exception of someone working for Nifong AND working on the case for him and happens to be a member of this board, has any idea of the evidence that the prosecution has. All the information in the public forum has been provided by the DEFENSE. We have not gotten to the point that the prosecution has to turn over any evidence to the defense. It's entirely possible that these lacrosse players taped themselves raping this woman (not saying such a tape exists, just that it could) and its now in prosecution hands. The defense would certainly not be in a rush to disclose that kind of information to the press, and from what I understand, Nifong has his office under a pretty short leash on this case.

I have no idea whether these kids are guilty or innocent, but there are people making presumptions based on partial evidence that may be misleading. Clearly, the timeline for the alibi of one of the accused makes it look difficult for him to take part in any crime that took place, but it's also entirely possible that the clocks on the cameras that took the pictures were off.

Regardless of the outcome, something happened to the woman at some point that night. Whether it was the lacrosse players that did it or if she was a willing participant in whatever caused the cuts and bruises is something best left to the courts. Enough of the truth will come out at trial.

Glory's Sun · 04-24-2006, 06:19 AM

The_Jazz: You are completely right about how none of us really know what evidence is really out there. However, when you hear what the DA has said it leads me to believe that he really doesn't have a leg to stand on. He went after the DNA because he knew it "would be bulletproof". Those were his statements. After the DNA came back negative, he hasn't said much, why? Because he's trying to find the 3rd Suspect and there isn't much for him to say. Again this is just what I think about the case. There's nothing wrong with trying to analyze a case and see what is going on, especially when someone (me) lives so close to the whole ordeal. I am almost amazed at the veracity the lawyers are taking, could they be fooling me? Possibly, but I just know that if they had any doubt they would be more reserved in most cases.

Also, everything I've seen has the pictures timestamped, not to mention the video surveillance and receipts. I've read and listened to both sides of what has been brought out so far and that's how I make my assumptions. I may be making hasty assumptions but I like to analyze cases and see where I was right or wrong. I always wanted to be a lawyer, so I guess that's just how I live vicariously through the actual lawyers. :shrug:

I'm anxiously awaiting for the Motion of Discovery to be filed so all the cards are on the table. This will give a more rounded look at the case.

The_Jazz · 04-24-2006, 07:23 AM

First, the prosecution and the defense are both doing exactly what they should be doing. The prosecution is not trying to make its case in the media. Beyond the one statement about the DNA being "bulletproof" what else have you heard about evidence that came out the DA's office. Not very much.

The defense is shouting from the rooftops about how these are good boys and there's all this evidence to prove their innocence. That's called trying to influence the juror pool. Given the legs this case seems to have, there won't be very many people in the area that haven't formed some sort of opinion about it. Guccilvr, since you're in the area, I'm going to pick on you - could you honestly report for jury duty on this case and tell the court that you have NOT formed an opinion? As I've said before, the defense counsel is pretty crafty, and they're handling this well. Could they be fooling you? That depends on what you mean by fooling. They are certainly expounding on their version of the facts, especially the ones that make their clients look good.

As far as the time and date stamps, they could easily be wrong. Who's to say that either the internal clock of the camera keeps accurate time or that they were programed with the accurate time in the first place? My wife programs everything, including her old VCR, 10 minutes fast so that she's on time. It's a habit. That will come out in discovery, I'm sure. If the guy armed with the camera set it to show 12:00 when it was actually 11:45, then that really changes things up for the timeline, doesn't it? I'm sure that the defense would NOT be pointing that out if it were the case.

stevo · 04-24-2006, 07:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The_Jazz

As far as the time and date stamps, they could easily be wrong. Who's to say that either the internal clock of the camera keeps accurate time or that they were programed with the accurate time in the first place? My wife programs everything, including her old VCR, 10 minutes fast so that she's on time. It's a habit. That will come out in discovery, I'm sure. If the guy armed with the camera set it to show 12:00 when it was actually 11:45, then that really changes things up for the timeline, doesn't it? I'm sure that the defense would NOT be pointing that out if it were the case.

I think it is pretty safe to assume they are accurate.

Quote:

The photos are believed to be authentic and taken by one of the students at the March 13 party. The time stamps on the photos appear to be accurate. Pictures of a wristwatch magnified for clarity correspond with the time on the photos. The players are sitting on three couches in a semicircle with the dancers in the middle.

I suppose its possible that the boys conspired before hand to rape the strippers so they all synchonized their watches to correspond to the false time programmed into the camera. Possible, but highly improbable.

Glory's Sun · 04-24-2006, 07:38 AM

Could I report for jury duty. I would like to think I could listen to all the evidence and not hold any pre-concieved notions. I also think there can be a motion to hold the trial in a different county if there is some sort of evidence or belief that an unbiased jury could not be found in the preciding county. I know what the defense it doing but I also think they are pretty sure they have a good shot at any trial.. if it even gets that far. I just wonder why nothing has come out of the DA's office. I really am believing it's because they don't have much else. I mean, the girl misidentified the 3rd person. She was shown a group photo of the lacrosse team (and not anyone else) and she made the identifications from that. The case can be thrown out by that fact alone.

As far as the pics go, I think most of them are camera phone pictures. I can't even set the clock on my phone. It's all done through the network. If I fly out west, the time changes for me. :shrug:

I understand what you are trying to say in that we shouldn't make assumptions and just wait for all the evidence to come out. I've also said that perhaps I've made hasty assumptions. I do this with alot of cases though, when I do I usually look at them from a legal standpoint, not a "I believe he's guilty because he looks like he would do it" or other silly ideas.

The_Jazz · 04-24-2006, 08:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stevo

I think it is pretty safe to assume they are accurate.
I suppose its possible that the boys conspired before hand to rape the strippers so they all synchonized their watches to correspond to the false time programmed into the camera. Possible, but highly improbable.

Have you seen a picture of the watch? It's an analog watch turned at an angle to the camera, at least in the 1 picture that I've seen. It's difficult to see how anyone could possibly tell the time. If it is an analog watch, with a minute hand, I find it difficult to believe that you could tell the accuracy within more than 5 minutes given the picture that the Drudge Report posted last week.

Again, all this information is coming from the defense. The DA has made 2 statements of any note in the last month or so - that they were seeking DNA evidence and that indictments had been issued. The defense revealed the DNA results, not the DA. The defense released these pictures, not the DA. The source is not exactly unbiased. It could very easily be the case that this is all a scam or that these guys raped and beat this woman. My only point is that there's a rush to judgement on partial information.

Glory's Sun · 04-24-2006, 08:19 AM

The defense would never claim the DNA was invalid. That would destroy any credibility for a trial. If there was DNA, the defense would be trying to come up with some sort of consent story I think.

flstf · 04-24-2006, 09:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by guccilvr

She was shown a group photo of the lacrosse team (and not anyone else) and she made the identifications from that. The case can be thrown out by that fact alone.

Well they did not want her to ID someone who is not on the team. They should have probably limited the field further to those who they can prove were actually there at the time the alleged rape occured.

04-12-2006, 10:57 AM	#1 (permalink)
wwcd101 Insane	Duke lacrosse team rape accusations I'm not sure this thread belongs in Tilted Sports, but let's start it here. This thing is a mess... and it is interesting on many fronts. Here's what i'd like to start with. Obviously, this is good example of why its not a great idea to 1) hire strippers for a party and/or 2) be a stripper for hire to private parties. Crazy things can, and do, happen. Anyway, DNA evidence is a pretty new thing. Yesterday, when i heard that all the kids tested negative, i thought OK, good. Everybody' cleared. Today, i heard that the DA said, no... the DNA was not definitive and the case was going to continue. So, help me, I'm confused. If you have to be guilt beyond a shadow of a doubt (think OJ), isn't a negative DNA test automatically, by definition, a significant doubt? Thanks for listening.

04-12-2006, 11:10 AM	#2 (permalink)
Daniel_ Evil Priest: The Devil Made Me Do It! Location: Southern England	A test that comes up blank doesn't prove a particular person innocent. A test that comes up with a real match to an unknown DNA profile may exonerate a suspect, but if there's multiple rapes involved (i.e. a woman says she was screwed by two guys) then all DNA testing can do is count people IN. Think of it like fingerprints - find a print and you know that the owner of the print was certainly there. Find nothing and you know nothing. __________________ ╔═════════════════════════════════════════╗ Overhead, the Albatross hangs motionless upon the air, And deep beneath the rolling waves, In labyrinths of Coral Caves, The Echo of a distant time Comes willowing across the sand; And everthing is Green and Submarine ╚═════════════════════════════════════════╝

04-13-2006, 07:17 AM	#7 (permalink)
The_Jazz Asshole Administrator Location: Chicago	I think that it depends on what evidence they (CSI) manage to collect, i.e. if they can find actual semen or body hairs not belonging to the victim. Also, a DNA test is not a test for latex or lubricants, which I'm sure would be done too to see if there was a condom present. __________________ "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - B. Franklin "There ought to be limits to freedom." - George W. Bush "We have met the enemy and he is us." - Pogo

04-13-2006, 08:06 AM	#8 (permalink)
djtestudo Baltimoron Location: Beeeeeautiful Bel Air, MD	This all is getting stranger and stranger. Despite my visceral hatred of Duke University athletics, I don't wish this on anybody, even their men's basketball team. I hope that this ends with someone prosecuted, whether it is someone who actually performed the rape, or the "victim" who made a false accusation. This is just a complete shame. __________________ "Final thought: I just rented Michael Moore's Bowling for Columbine. Frankly, it was the worst sports movie I've ever seen." --Peter Schmuck, The (Baltimore) Sun

04-13-2006, 10:24 AM	#10 (permalink)
The_Jazz Asshole Administrator Location: Chicago	It's hard to take sides on this one, isn't it? __________________ "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - B. Franklin "There ought to be limits to freedom." - George W. Bush "We have met the enemy and he is us." - Pogo

04-12-2006, 11:45 AM	#4 (permalink)
Glory's Sun Registered User	I think the dna tests came from pubic hairs or other areas. I think now that DNA is so widely used that in almost every rape case some sort of DNA testing will be done. I'm not really sure how to feel about this whole issue. I hate how the media is claiming some big race war that is going to happen. I don't think that's an issue at all. With the lack of charges and arrests I think the DA's office is scrambling to really find something. If the kids are guilty I hate it for the university considering their reputation and for the girl. If they are innocent, I hate it for the university's reputation alone. I was pretty surprised at how quickly the defense came out saying that the DNA and pictures showed the kids were innocent. Supposedly, this would have stayed behind closed doors if they defense didn't go public. :shrug:

04-12-2006, 03:48 PM	#5 (permalink)
maximusveritas Winner	The lack of DNA evidence doesn't exonerate them, but it does make it much tougher for the police and DA to figure out which 3 of them were actually involved in the crime. He says they have good evidence that the crime occurred. It's just a matter of figuring out who did and that's usually the hard part.

04-13-2006, 07:00 AM	#6 (permalink)
wwcd101 Insane	I always get a little crosseyed trying to decipher the true meaning of the term sexual assult. Can't we say definitively, if a rapist had vaginal intercouse with their victim, regardless of whether they ejaculate, it leaves DNA evidence? Thanks for listening.

04-13-2006, 10:34 AM	#11 (permalink)
Glory's Sun Registered User	It really is. I love Duke University, but there's no way that will affect my disdain for the kids if they did rape her.

04-18-2006, 04:51 AM	#14 (permalink)
Glory's Sun Registered User	I haven't had a chance to hear or read the full story yet, but on this mornings news, I saw that two kids turned themselves in about 4:55 am this morning. I also missed an interview with the second stripper. I think it may come down to her testimony if anything. Of course with kids turning themselves in.. who knows what happend. I just know that I'm dissapointed in this whole thing. When you hear something like this, you expect it to be the University of Colorado, not Duke. I just hope the right stories come out and justice comes swiftly for whatever happend.

04-18-2006, 07:19 AM	#16 (permalink)
Glory's Sun Registered User	The one thing I hope doesn't happen is that this DA just goes ahead gung ho knowing that there is a pending election. Don't get me wrong, if the kids did it, then put them where they belong, if they didn't then drop the case and let them move on. If it was just a picture identification, then that's really not much to go on. DNA has been issued and nothing was there, I want to see the pictures and if the girl was really intoxicated when she arrived. I guess it's all up to Motion of Discovery now.

04-18-2006, 08:25 AM	#17 (permalink)
crossova Psycho Location: new york	Did i hear correctly this morning that she now says she was raped with a broomstick. i dont know if that was the only object allegedly inserted into her. but no matter what happens right now, i pray that this doesnt turn into another Tawana Brawley case

04-19-2006, 03:16 AM	#18 (permalink)
Glory's Sun Registered User	I haven't heard the broomstick story. This case gets uglier and uglier by the day. We have defense attorneys really swinging for the knockout. They say they have pictures, and no dna. Now they claim that they have concrete evidence that the two charged weren't even at the house when the rape supposedly took place. They are also starting to question the "victims" (only in quotes because we don't know if she was raped or not yet) credibility. The "victim" has several felonies including a stolen car, felony assault on a government official and felony eluding arrest. Something else that I want to note, is the even if the medical report states that she has injuries consistent with sexual assault, that does not mean it happend at that house. According to one report, she did leave the house and came back later. Something just doesn't add up in this case, (of course I don't know all the details) I guess we'll have to wait and see what the more detailed DNA tests say when they come back today. As for now, I'm trying to hold a non-partisan stance, but it seems I'm leaning towards the kids defense.

04-19-2006, 08:42 AM	#20 (permalink)
The_Jazz Asshole Administrator Location: Chicago	Stevo, I don't know if this timeline especially exonorates anyone in and of itself. There's a 20 minute gap (12:10 to 12:30) that give more than ample time for a rape to occur. There's an accomanying timeline for one of the accused that has him at a bank at 12:24 and a cabbie that picked him up roughly 5 minutes before. That gives the guy basically 10 minutes, which I suppose is also ample time, although it doesn't make sense to call a cab, wait, rape the woman, then catch the cab. The whole thing still stinks to high heavens on both sides. Full disclosure time - a good friend's brother and friend were murdered in Raleigh about 2 years ago. This prosecutor (actually a deputy) successfully got put away one perpetrator for life and the other for 14+ years. Everything that I heard from my friend was only high praise for everyone in the office, including the boss. The guy apparently lives for putting bad guys away, and my friend finds it difficult to believe that he (the prosecutor) would grandstand for political gain. The defense counsel for one of the murderers is highly involved in this case as well. I believe that the term that my friend used (and was later repeated by his father) is "absolute motherfucker". There were obviously some emotional scars here since son/brother/victim was only 22 and really did nothing wrong, but at one point my friend was talking about sueing the defense counsel because he was so angry. That's not going to happen, but my point is that some of the lawyers involved are both very good and very slick. In my friend's case, there was never really any doubt as guilt or not since there were dozens of witnesses and phone tap confessions, but there seems to be a crack of daylight in the rape case. I'm going to repeat my thoughts from Post #10 - it's hard to take sides on this one. __________________ "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - B. Franklin "There ought to be limits to freedom." - George W. Bush "We have met the enemy and he is us." - Pogo

04-19-2006, 09:16 AM	#21 (permalink)
Glory's Sun Registered User	The timeline doesn't clear anyone, but if bruises and such were on the girl before the alleged rape, that will damage the prosecution's argument considerably. Something else you may want to consider is that if the DA really had some weight to throw in this case, he wouldn't have gone to a closed grand jury. There would have been a preliminary hearing. I don't think I've ever seen a defense team come out swinging like this. To me that seems like they honestly know they have the knockout punch. Most defense lawyers would want this type of case to stay behind closed doors.. granted it could be a slick move on their part, but highly doubtful. The_Jazz, of course your friend has high praise for the DA office. If my brother was killed and the DA got the perps sentenced to that kind of time, I'd praise him too. I still believe he's pulling some sort of political gain out of his ass with this one. There are just way too many holes (at this point) for me to say the kids are guilty. I believe in Innocent until Proven Guilty, but alot of times you know when someone did something like this. The more I read, the more I hear, the more I believe the kids are innocent. I just hope I'm right.

04-21-2006, 05:20 AM	#22 (permalink)
wwcd101 Insane	Like i said, this is a mess. It's complicated, somewhat emotionally unsettling and difficult to look away from (like a car accident). Two general "stripper" questions. 1st, i don't have a lot of lifetime stripper hiring experience, but i've never seen a situation where the girls showed up without a body guard. Is this normal? 2nd, there seems to be evidence from several sources that the girl was loaded. Again, my experience is that the strippers always seemed under control, naked, but in control of themselves and the situation. Can we share some stripper experiences here? Thanks for listening.

04-21-2006, 06:16 AM	#23 (permalink)
Glory's Sun Registered User	Stripper experiences: I've seen them come with and without body guards. More often than not they come with body guards. The other stripper said that when they got there the girl seemed in control, but when they left she couldn't speak well or walk well. That could mean she got drunk there or something really did happen. According to pictures, the stripper is seen with bruises and scrapes on her body on arrival. I think that is a huge key in this whole thing. If she showed up with injuries it could be that something happend before. Maybe not rape, but there has to be an explanation for the bruises. If I were the defense.. I'd ask for a speedy trial as soon as the next round of DNA tests come back. If they get a speedy trial and the DA really doesn't have much, then the kids would be found not guilty or the case would be thrown out relativly fast.

04-21-2006, 06:54 AM	#24 (permalink)
Ustwo Pissing in the cornflakes	The DA is up for re-election. The thought is the charges will be dropped shortly after. __________________ Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

04-21-2006, 07:15 AM	#25 (permalink)
The_Jazz Asshole Administrator Location: Chicago	I'm having trouble seeing why the DA would bring these charges on a weak case with an election looming. With all the holes that the defense is poking in the assumed facts, I've got to believe that either the DA knows something that hasn't been made public yet or that he's been lied to. This is too high profile of a case for the DA to indict on a whim, and if it blows up, people are going to remember it. Let's also pause a second to remember that one of the defendants threated to rape both of the strippers with a broomstick and made racial threats. At least one of them is an asshole with some issues, although that's certainly not illegal. __________________ "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - B. Franklin "There ought to be limits to freedom." - George W. Bush "We have met the enemy and he is us." - Pogo

04-21-2006, 07:29 AM	#26 (permalink)
Glory's Sun Registered User	I haven't heard that a defendant in question threatend to rape both of them with a broomstick. I have heard that one of the kids present suggested they use the broom as a sex toy. There is an issue there. Was it light hearted joking while a kid was drunk? Was it an actual threat? Who knows. I think the DA had to do something. People took this allegation to the extreme around Durham. (I'm not far from Durham, so this is all I hear about all day) The public outrage (for no real reason) prompted the DA to make some sort of move. He may have felt that he was better off at least trying something than doing nothing especially right before election. Remember, the DA was gungho about the DNA results because he "knew it would be bulletproof". When that didn't happen, what is he supposed to do? Well like any gungho over-anxious DA, you go to a closed Grand Jury session and get an indictment. Had the DA really had anything to get a firm conviction in this case, there would have been a preliminary hearing (can't remember the exact name of the hearing). Now, like I said I am leaning towards the Boys in this case, but if something comes out to prove otherwise I will happily retract and support whatever sentence they receive.

04-21-2006, 08:52 AM	#29 (permalink)
maximusveritas Winner	There are holes because not everything has come out yet. I don't see the point in trying to judge a case based simply on what's come out in the media. It's better to wait until we get the full story.

04-21-2006, 02:55 PM	#30 (permalink)
heccubusiv #1 Irish Fan Location: The Burgh	The sad part is, even if they are guilty there parents have millions of dollars and they will have the best laywers with unlimited funds. While the DA will have limited funds. I wonder how the case will change if a duke girl got raped by the minorities in the town. Its a sad in society when money and race will get your out of a crime. Not saying they did it, but if they did they should be punished, but it won't happen. __________________ Fuck Ohio

04-24-2006, 04:35 AM	#33 (permalink)
The_Jazz Asshole Administrator Location: Chicago	Posts #1-32 for an excellent example why criminal cases should never be tried in the media. No one here, with the sole exception of someone working for Nifong AND working on the case for him and happens to be a member of this board, has any idea of the evidence that the prosecution has. All the information in the public forum has been provided by the DEFENSE. We have not gotten to the point that the prosecution has to turn over any evidence to the defense. It's entirely possible that these lacrosse players taped themselves raping this woman (not saying such a tape exists, just that it could) and its now in prosecution hands. The defense would certainly not be in a rush to disclose that kind of information to the press, and from what I understand, Nifong has his office under a pretty short leash on this case. I have no idea whether these kids are guilty or innocent, but there are people making presumptions based on partial evidence that may be misleading. Clearly, the timeline for the alibi of one of the accused makes it look difficult for him to take part in any crime that took place, but it's also entirely possible that the clocks on the cameras that took the pictures were off. Regardless of the outcome, something happened to the woman at some point that night. Whether it was the lacrosse players that did it or if she was a willing participant in whatever caused the cuts and bruises is something best left to the courts. Enough of the truth will come out at trial. __________________ "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - B. Franklin "There ought to be limits to freedom." - George W. Bush "We have met the enemy and he is us." - Pogo

04-24-2006, 06:19 AM	#34 (permalink)
Glory's Sun Registered User	The_Jazz: You are completely right about how none of us really know what evidence is really out there. However, when you hear what the DA has said it leads me to believe that he really doesn't have a leg to stand on. He went after the DNA because he knew it "would be bulletproof". Those were his statements. After the DNA came back negative, he hasn't said much, why? Because he's trying to find the 3rd Suspect and there isn't much for him to say. Again this is just what I think about the case. There's nothing wrong with trying to analyze a case and see what is going on, especially when someone (me) lives so close to the whole ordeal. I am almost amazed at the veracity the lawyers are taking, could they be fooling me? Possibly, but I just know that if they had any doubt they would be more reserved in most cases. Also, everything I've seen has the pictures timestamped, not to mention the video surveillance and receipts. I've read and listened to both sides of what has been brought out so far and that's how I make my assumptions. I may be making hasty assumptions but I like to analyze cases and see where I was right or wrong. I always wanted to be a lawyer, so I guess that's just how I live vicariously through the actual lawyers. :shrug: I'm anxiously awaiting for the Motion of Discovery to be filed so all the cards are on the table. This will give a more rounded look at the case.

04-24-2006, 07:23 AM	#35 (permalink)
The_Jazz Asshole Administrator Location: Chicago	First, the prosecution and the defense are both doing exactly what they should be doing. The prosecution is not trying to make its case in the media. Beyond the one statement about the DNA being "bulletproof" what else have you heard about evidence that came out the DA's office. Not very much. The defense is shouting from the rooftops about how these are good boys and there's all this evidence to prove their innocence. That's called trying to influence the juror pool. Given the legs this case seems to have, there won't be very many people in the area that haven't formed some sort of opinion about it. Guccilvr, since you're in the area, I'm going to pick on you - could you honestly report for jury duty on this case and tell the court that you have NOT formed an opinion? As I've said before, the defense counsel is pretty crafty, and they're handling this well. Could they be fooling you? That depends on what you mean by fooling. They are certainly expounding on their version of the facts, especially the ones that make their clients look good. As far as the time and date stamps, they could easily be wrong. Who's to say that either the internal clock of the camera keeps accurate time or that they were programed with the accurate time in the first place? My wife programs everything, including her old VCR, 10 minutes fast so that she's on time. It's a habit. That will come out in discovery, I'm sure. If the guy armed with the camera set it to show 12:00 when it was actually 11:45, then that really changes things up for the timeline, doesn't it? I'm sure that the defense would NOT be pointing that out if it were the case. __________________ "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - B. Franklin "There ought to be limits to freedom." - George W. Bush "We have met the enemy and he is us." - Pogo

04-24-2006, 07:38 AM	#37 (permalink)
Glory's Sun Registered User	Could I report for jury duty. I would like to think I could listen to all the evidence and not hold any pre-concieved notions. I also think there can be a motion to hold the trial in a different county if there is some sort of evidence or belief that an unbiased jury could not be found in the preciding county. I know what the defense it doing but I also think they are pretty sure they have a good shot at any trial.. if it even gets that far. I just wonder why nothing has come out of the DA's office. I really am believing it's because they don't have much else. I mean, the girl misidentified the 3rd person. She was shown a group photo of the lacrosse team (and not anyone else) and she made the identifications from that. The case can be thrown out by that fact alone. As far as the pics go, I think most of them are camera phone pictures. I can't even set the clock on my phone. It's all done through the network. If I fly out west, the time changes for me. :shrug: I understand what you are trying to say in that we shouldn't make assumptions and just wait for all the evidence to come out. I've also said that perhaps I've made hasty assumptions. I do this with alot of cases though, when I do I usually look at them from a legal standpoint, not a "I believe he's guilty because he looks like he would do it" or other silly ideas.

04-24-2006, 08:19 AM	#39 (permalink)
Glory's Sun Registered User	The defense would never claim the DNA was invalid. That would destroy any credibility for a trial. If there was DNA, the defense would be trying to come up with some sort of consent story I think.