Making the REDS great again..... - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

pan6467 · 01-23-2006, 11:08 AM

I know lip service from a new owner means shit in the world of sports, but this guy comes from the family that built the 70's BIG RED MACHINE and something tells me he means what he says.

Moving his office to the stadium is a great sign.

Viva la Reds

Quote:

Reds new owner makes some changes

By JOE KAY, AP Sports Writer
January 20, 2006

CINCINNATI (AP) -- The new owner of the Cincinnati Reds already is moving in and moving things around.

In his first day running baseball's oldest professional franchise, produce magnate Bob Castellini reorganized the front office and promised fans a championship.

He also announced Friday that he was moving into an office at Great American Ball Park, where he plans to see how things are done with an eye on more sweeping changes down the line.

"As we build our organization, we'll likely do some other things differently once we get our sleeves rolled up," Castellini said at an introductory news conference attended by about 300 civic leaders and dignitaries. "I intend to work out of the Reds' offices on a daily basis until I have an insider's understanding of how we work."

Castellini's first move was to change the front office's structure. Chief operating officer John Allen will stay but will focus on the business side of the ballclub. General manager Dan O'Brien will run the baseball side, reporting directly to Castellini.

Under previous owner Carl Lindner, Allen ran the entire operation and reported directly to the owner. Castellini and two other Cincinnati businessmen bought control of the team from Lindner in November, a transaction approved Thursday by major league baseball owners.

In many ways, Castellini demonstrated he will be much different from previous owners. He was more comfortable in front of a microphone -- Lindner generally kept to himself -- and showed a broad knowledge of his team, his players and what they've done.

Castellini, who will run the team as its chief executive, said the payroll this season would be $60 million to $65 million, roughly the same as last season. The Reds lost 89 games last year, when they opened with a $60 million payroll that ranked 19th in the majors. The 2006 payroll was set before Castellini got control of the team.

The new owner also showed a fondness for former Reds manager Lou Piniella, who is out of baseball at the moment. Tampa Bay bought out the final year of his contract at the end of last season, and Piniella is doing television work this year.

Castellini met with Piniella and asked him to become a special adviser with the Reds. Castellini said Piniella turned down the offer because he wants to take a year off.

"I wanted Lou to come up here in the worst way as a special adviser," Castellini said. "He promised me if I asked him to, he'd come down to spring training. He's just a terrific guy. He'll not be with us this year."

The Reds have put together five consecutive losing seasons, their longest such streak in 50 years. Castellini said that will change.

"I want to make a promise today to Reds fans wherever you are, a promise from one fan to another: We will bring championship baseball to Cincinnati," he said emphatically.

The five-year losing streak reflects an organization that lost its direction in the late 1990s, unsure whether it was rebuilding or contending. General manager Jim Bowden was fired midway through 2003 -- the first season at Great American Ball Park -- when the lack of pitching and prospects caught up with the team.

The Reds have put more emphasis and money into the farm system since Bowden left, but haven't been able to develop pitching prospects. Last season, the Reds had the NL's top offense -- most runs, doubles and homers in the league -- but their pitching staff finished last.

"We spent a lot more money on scouting in the last two or three years and a lot more on minor league development, but the results are not showing yet," Castellini said. "And I understand that it's supposed to take longer than that, but I'm impatient."

He's also more willing than Lindner to get involved. Like former owner Marge Schott, Castellini plans to have an office in the ballpark, studying how things run. Lindner and other Reds owners preferred to work out of their business offices.

"I'll be here every day," Castellini said. "I will be hands-on. That's a promise."

pan6467 · 01-23-2006, 04:01 PM

I like this man already. O'Brien, I'm sure is a good man, cannotjudge talent and has wasted money.

It sounds like this new owner isn't going to settle and will do the best he can. That is refreshing for us REDS fans. Maybe he'll find a GM that con not only evaluate good talent but keep the team contending for years to come.

Quote:

New Reds owner fires GM

By JOE KAY, AP Sports Writer
January 23, 2006

CINCINNATI (AP) -- General manager Dan O'Brien was fired Monday by new Cincinnati Reds owner Bob Castellini, his first major change since he took control of the team.

O'Brien was entering his third season as general manager and had a year to go on his contract. The Reds are coming off their fifth consecutive losing season, their longest such streak in 50 years.

Major league owners approved the Reds' sale to Castellini last Thursday. In a news conference a day later, he indicated he was impatient with losing and was planning to make changes as he learned more about how the team operates.

Castellini's first move was to put chief operating officer John Allen in charge of the business side of the franchise, with O'Brien reporting directly to him. Under previous owner Carl Lindner, O'Brien reported to Allen.

"I want someone in this job who is my choice," Castellini said in a statement. "I told Dan he has worked hard and has worked diligently to rebuild the farm system and scouting department of the Reds, and that we appreciate his efforts."

The two have different management styles, though it wasn't immediately clear whether that was a major factor in the decision. Castellini spoke passionately about his love for the game and his commitment to getting the franchise turned around fast. O'Brien is analytical and deliberate, preferring to study all sides of an issue before making a decision.

O'Brien's firing left the team without a general manager less than a month before the start of spring training. Baseball operations director Brad Kullman will serve as interim general manager until a replacement is picked.

The Reds have been in turmoil since they moved into Great American Ball Park for the 2003 season. General manager Jim Bowden and manager Bob Boone were fired midway through the inaugural season, with Kullman helping to fill in until O'Brien was chosen after the season.

O'Brien's top goal was to rebuild a farm system that had failed to produce pitchers during Bowden's tenure. After only two years, he was fired by a new owner who is making major changes much faster than anticipated.

Castellini said last week that he will have an office in Great American Ball Park and will make changes as he became better acquainted with how the team operates. He gave no indication that the changes would come so soon.

Castellini said at his introductory news conference that he tried to hire Lou Piniella as a special adviser, but the former Reds and Devil Rays manager wanted to take a year off from baseball.

During his two years in Cincinnati, O'Brien restructured the minor league system and imposed pitch limits for minor leaguers to end a trend of prospects getting hurt. He also signed left-hander Eric Milton, who made $8 million last season while giving up a club-record 40 homers, and traded popular first baseman Sean Casey to Pittsburgh last month.

The Reds have two pending arbitration cases -- with Adam Dunn and All-Star shortstop Felipe Lopez.

kutulu · 03-20-2006, 09:58 AM

I think O'Brian already screwed up. They traded Pena for Arroyo. Let's see, pre-arbitration OF with 40HR potential or Arroyo?

Perhaps Arroyo will do well outside of the ALE, but he's probably washed up.

djtestudo · 03-20-2006, 12:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kutulu

I think O'Brian already screwed up. They traded Pena for Arroyo. Let's see, pre-arbitration OF with 40HR potential or Arroyo?

Perhaps Arroyo will do well outside of the ALE, but he's probably washed up.

I just ran the numbers for an Orioles site...Pena strikes out 5.3 times for every walk. Jose Hernandez is at 3.63, Reggie Jackson (all-time leader) is at 1.88, and Rob Deer 2.45 (I did some others as well).

Based on Arroyo being an average pitcher, and that being Cincy's need instead of overrated underperforming outfielders, I think Cincy fleeced Boston here. You can't hit homers of you don't get any strikes from pitchers who know you will swing at anything.

pan6467 · 03-20-2006, 01:18 PM

Pena, while I like him is over-hyped. He may have potential.... but that's what it is potential. He may flourish in the AL but in the NL he wasn't the great fit.

There were also rumors that he may not make the team and he was out of options so the REDS had to do something.

As for Arroyo, you look at his numbers they aren't that bad. He knows how to win, and he may very well be a great fit in the NL. He's 29 so he's entering his prime, and most of all this shows the REDS are willing to spend some money again to try to better their pitching.

Hopefully, Arroyo isn't a freaking Paul Wilson or Eric Milton. In fact, he could very easily turn out to be this year's big sleeper and do for Cincy what Millwood did for Cleveland last year.

We shall see but, I also have a feeling the REDS ain't done dealin' yet.

kutulu · 03-20-2006, 02:21 PM

With Cincy's current staff, Arroyo will be their best pitcher, it sure won't be Gosling (lol, I can't talk, after Webb, the DBacks have to pray).

Pena is more than just potential though. He hit 26 hr in 04 and 19 in 05, in both seasons he had barely over 300 AB. His OBP and K/BB both need work (54/288 K/BB in 800 AB). As the Dominicans say "You don't walk off the island."

I hear the Reds got cash back, Arroyo has a 3yr deal for about $11.25M. That's nice for a pitcher that is league average. Poor guy signed with them for a hometown discount.

That's another reason why players need to squeeze whatever they can out of the owners. You don't give a hometown discount unless it comes with a full or limited NTC.

They money works out great for the Reds, but an everyday player with tons of power is worth more than a back of the rotation pitcher. Even though the Reds will probably use him as a starter, the Sox had him slotted to be a reliever. We'll see if he passes his physical this time.

pan6467 · 03-21-2006, 02:58 AM

Could be Arroyo wasn't protesting the trade to loudly. Most Starters want to start not be locked into the 'pen. I have a feeling he didn't mind too much knowing he'd be a SP.

As for hometown discounts and "sticking it to the owner". It's not the owners you are sticking it to, it's the fans and pretty soon the fans will tire of watching their fan favorites go elsewhere chasing that extra million or so.

MontanaXVI · 03-21-2006, 05:59 AM

Obviously from looking at my avatar you can see why I have a certain...dislike...if you will for the Reds, but I don't know about this idea. While I am sure the Reds and their fans are glad to have another arm in the pen, one has to wonder, with WMP's potential if they could not have landed another arm from another club with a little bit more upside than Arroyo, not to say he is a bad pitcher, but I just don't think he has been a standout or shown a flash to make me think he could anchor a staff, I just see him as another middle of the pack rotation guy.

dylanmarsh · 03-21-2006, 06:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MontanaXVI

Obviously from looking at my avatar you can see why I have a certain...dislike...if you will for the Reds, but I don't know about this idea. While I am sure the Reds and their fans are glad to have another arm in the pen, one has to wonder, with WMP's potential if they could not have landed another arm from another club with a little bit more upside than Arroyo, not to say he is a bad pitcher, but I just don't think he has been a standout or shown a flash to make me think he could anchor a staff, I just see him as another middle of the pack rotation guy.

I agree. Arroyo, while still my favorite player of 2004 for beaning A-Rod, will probably never win a CY Young or even win 20 games or even post a sub 3.00 ERA. Did I mention he's on the verge of 30?

On the other hand, WMP is not yet 25 and has a huge upside. Boston has proven to be a place where plate discipline is taught and stressed. Plus, WMP is Red Sox property until 2008, when he's arbitration eligible.

Good deal for the Reds, great deal for the Sox.

kutulu · 03-21-2006, 08:30 AM

There are three years of arbitration so they have him well beyond 2008. Also, he should be arb eligible after 2007, so he will be a free agent in 2010. Plate discipline is his major flaw. If he can learn to be more patient, he'll be a great player. 24 is a little old to learn plate discipline though.

Hanxter · 03-21-2006, 12:20 PM

i never thought i'd ssee the sox pitcher heavy but they did need the bat so this looks like another stroke of theoism brilliance...

the reds got him on the cheap when bronko took a cut on this contract - but even though wily mo is young he has been prone to injuries - more than likely he'll only play against left handed pitchers and leave trotter in against righties - trot is up for freebies after this season so the deal does look good for the sox having pena as insurance should nixon grow wings...

Halx · 03-21-2006, 01:04 PM

So where's Griffey headed?

dylanmarsh · 03-21-2006, 01:24 PM

You gotta love this quote from Arroyo, right after the trade went down (from the Boston Globe) :

Quote:

"(Red Sox) Clubhouse attendant Pookie Jackson handed Arroyo a parcel, and said 'here's your last package.'

Arroyo’s reaction: 'A 3 wood. I'm going to need it.'"

At least Bronson knows what he's headed to and isn't trying to hide it. Pretty interesting article, if you have time to check it out.

kutulu · 03-22-2006, 08:28 AM

Wow, he sure didn't hide any of his feelings about that!

Glory's Sun · 03-22-2006, 09:31 AM

That was a pretty good article. It's nice to hear a player talk about how much he loves playing where he is and not just bashing the GM for a trade. I give Arroyo alot of respect for that. As far as the deal goes, it's a smart one for the Sox, and who knows, Bronson may end up back in Boston eventually.

guy44 · 03-22-2006, 03:50 PM

I do kind of feel bad for Arroya, inasmuch as I can feel bad for a major leaguer making millions. But he did sign a contract that was somewhat lower par, and bought out his arb years, because he liked Boston and wanted to play for them. Basically, Boston got the hometown discount from a player and quickly, callously, traded him away. I'm not criticizing Boston for doing it - it was the right move, they traded from strength and depth (starting pitching) and got back a massively talented player in return - but I do think it shows that people shouldn't just criticize players for lacking loyalty.

pan6467 · 03-23-2006, 12:40 PM

I don't necessarily like what Arroyo said. I understand he was hurt and upset but to basically say "I'm just going to go and do my time" like it's a fucking prison sentence is a pathetic attitude.

I cannot feel sorry for a man that makes millions of dollars (multiple times more than I will probably make in this lifetime). For him to say what he did shows me how fucked up the attitudes are in baseball.

You don't have to be ecstatic but come on...... at least say something like, "Boston was cool but I'm a Red now and they must have truly wanted me. I'll prove that they made the right decision. Who knows maybe I'll get to beat the Sox in the World Series."

That would have been class....... not whining and saying "I'll go and play, but my heart won't be in it and I'm just pitching there till my contract runs out and I'm getting the fuck out of that Hell-hole."

No class. FANS run this and to talk like he did shows no respect to the fans, to his new team or for the MILLIONS he'll make playing a fucking game.

kutulu · 03-24-2006, 07:36 AM

Personally, I like it when players are real. Anyone can give that "they wanted me more and I'll do what I can to help the team" but its transparent BS.

Quote:

Originally Posted by pan6467

No class. FANS run this and to talk like he did shows no respect to the fans, to his new team or for the MILLIONS he'll make playing a fucking game.

It's a game when you and your buddies join a league and play after work. It's a game to those of us that watch it but for them it's real life in a billion dollar industry.

guy44 · 03-25-2006, 02:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kutulu

It's a game when you and your buddies join a league and play after work. It's a game to those of us that watch it but for them it's real life in a billion dollar industry.

Plus, Arroyo had essentially entered into a gentlemen's contract with the Red Sox where he agreed to make less money than he otherwise would with the understanding that he would get to play in Boston. Boston immediately trading him was a violation of this understanding.

So, yeah, he's still making millions; but come on, if you got screwed out of maybe 3 or 5 millions dollars by an employer, and were forced to live in another city because of it - no matter how much you will make, you'd be pissed too.

pan6467 · 03-25-2006, 07:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by guy44

Plus, Arroyo had essentially entered into a gentlemen's contract with the Red Sox where he agreed to make less money than he otherwise would with the understanding that he would get to play in Boston. Boston immediately trading him was a violation of this understanding.

So, yeah, he's still making millions; but come on, if you got screwed out of maybe 3 or 5 millions dollars by an employer, and were forced to live in another city because of it - no matter how much you will make, you'd be pissed too.

He repeats himself many times when he says "Boston gave him no guarantees."

I'm sorry, it is classless and shows no respect to Cincy or the team's fans.

It is not the attitude of a winner and if you are going to make massive amounts of money playing a game then you need to show a winning attitude.

I have said the same about Manny, TO and any athlete that basically says "fuck the fans, I want what I want and I don't care what the fans want."

It's bad business and it is the wrong attitude.

If Arroyo feels so screwed or upset, then show the baseball world that you truly meant what you said about playing in Boston and retire.

But he won't. He'll serve his "sentence" and keep badmouthing and feeling sorry for himself and a group of fans will all feel sorry for the multi-million dollar player who got traded.

Guess what? Most people can lose their jobs tomorrow and don't have million dollar guaranteed contracts. Most people work fucking hard for what they get and want and those are the people paying this man's contract.

So to me based on his statements he's a lowlife with no class, no respect and no professionalism.

I am sick of people defending players. I used to and you know what, they don't give a fuck about you. As long as they make their millions, they truly don't give a flying fuck about the fans. And until they do, I won't feel sorry for them.

It's not like the old days when you could stop a Johnny Bench and ask for his autograph or have your kid take a picture with Mike Schmidt or sit at the neighborhood bar after the game and share a drink with one of the "guys". Back in the day, players played for the money and most at least faked caring about the fans.

You think they do now? So why the Hell would anyone feel sorry for one or allow them excuses to say, "I'm going to play 3 years in Hell, and I'll try but my heart just won't be in it and when my time is up I'm on the first flight out."?

If you're the Reds how do you sell a pitcher with that kind of attitude.

It's like Millwood, everyone knew he was a 1 year rental in Cleveland. But he didn't sit there and moan and keep saying he wanted out. In fact it was the other way around, he kept praising Cleveland and talked about how much he wanted to stay. Even though it was BS it made it easier to root for the guy, support the guy and accept him as the rental he was.

Used to be when a player talked shit about his team or cried about a trade the fans jumped all over him for not being the professional. Today people make excuses and hand him tissues.

Used to be the fans and players developed great respect for each other.... now the players don't give a flying fuck how much you pay at the stadium, how much extra your cable bill is, what you think of them or even winning..... all they care about is the money. Screw everything else, not their concern.

Look at Sean Casey he could have gotten more money, but he gave Cincy the so called "hometown" discount and when he was traded he acted with class. He didn't cry about leaving Cincy for a true baseball hell hole like Pittsburgh, in fact he complimented his new team, said it's business and that he understood. He didn't rip CIncy, he didn't bad mouth Pittsburgh, he handled the trade professionally and with respect to the fans in both cities. That's the rarity, the exception.

guy44 · 03-26-2006, 12:57 AM

I just don't get why anyone gives a flying fuck what any of these athletes say. Who cares? Why get so angry? What difference does it make if Bronson Arroyo is a complete dick or a heavenly saint? Sometimes I feel like this overreaction to athletes' attitudes is like the male equivelant to the millions of women who freak out if Brad and Jen break up or whatever. It. Just. Doesn't. Matter.

pan6467 · 03-26-2006, 06:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by guy44

I just don't get why anyone gives a flying fuck what any of these athletes say. Who cares? Why get so angry? What difference does it make if Bronson Arroyo is a complete dick or a heavenly saint? Sometimes I feel like this overreaction to athletes' attitudes is like the male equivelant to the millions of women who freak out if Brad and Jen break up or whatever. It. Just. Doesn't. Matter.

In the true scheme of life it doesn't. But on the other hand, sports is an emotional part of some people's lives, mine included. It's sense of pride to watch my Ohio teams suceed, and it is painful to watch them come into dead last and get reemed in the press.

To me, it bothers me when these athletes, making more in 1 year than probably 50% of the fan base combined, decide to cry about how mistreated they are.

Why?

Because I work very hard for my money (granted I love my job but there were many jobs before I hated), and there are times I wish I could act as a juvenile ingrate but I know I'd get my ass verbal warned or fired. Meanwhile, these "men" act like freaking little boys wanting to take their ball home when something doesn't go their way. They cry, they pout, they talk shit on their teams and the fans who pay their paychecks (that they have NO PROBLEM cashing), and they have no retribution to pay for these infractions.

Let's see Manny "be Manny" at a steel mill. Or see TO complain because the other guys at Best Buy work harder for their commissions (not sure Best Buy has commissions but it's a hypothetical and you get the point), or have Barry Bonds work as a cop in the Bronx for a pay that's barely enough to live on, or have Arroyo working as a teacher for next to nothing in South Central L.A. or see Tejeda working construction where maybe 3 months of the year there is no work and you have to live on unemployment.

In other words let's see these guys work "real jobs" for their money and see how fast they pull their whiny assed spoiled brat antics.

No one allows you to act in the ways that these guys do, so why is it ok for them to act that way? There's no excuse and I truly believe it's time the fans take back sports and tell players and owners alike, we don't want role models but we want professionals who are publicly grateful for what they get and to the fans. It is the fans that pay the paychecks and some of these people need to realize that when they shit on the fans, they need to face consequences.

pan6467 · 06-08-2006, 10:17 PM

8 in a row and aweekend series with the poor cursed Cubs.....

Pujols OUT....lol

Griffey a little sore but coming out strong, Freel getting hot, Arroyo (who I am still pissy over), Harang and Milton pitching semi-decent (as an understatment).....

Oh yeah and what has Wily Mo been doing? And where's Sean Casey? Let me know when we miss them, will you?

CINCY ROCKS..... the REDS pulling ahead, the BENGALS getting tough..... Cincy is on the rise.

As for Cleveland.... well we have King James..... a baseball team full of underachieving crybabies who truly look like they play games to lose.... and a football team that has a serious identity problem and cannot figure out which direction they want to go in so they are in constant "rebuild" status.

But........ on a lighter note..... did I mention CINCY ROCKS

Glory's Sun · 06-09-2006, 03:37 AM

Enjoy it while you can. I can say with confidence that Cincy will not make the playoffs. Their defense stinks and their pitching is horrible. Sure they are playing well right now, but they are playing better than they really are. A team can only do that for so long.

Now, before you get all "pissy" about that, this can be a good thing even if they don't make the playoffs. It helps attendence and will help the front office in getting aquisitions for next year or before the trade.

So, I'm guessing you're "pissy" over Arroyo because he still wants to play for Boston right?

Oh and as far as Willy Mo goes, he filled in an important part while Coco was out and did a fine job. He didn't put any steller numbers but he was consistent. IIRC, he's on the DL right now.

pan6467 · 06-09-2006, 08:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by guccilvr

Enjoy it while you can. I can say with confidence that Cincy will not make the playoffs. Their defense stinks and their pitching is horrible. Sure they are playing well right now, but they are playing better than they really are. A team can only do that for so long.

I don't know, Detroit seems to be doing quite well. But alas, you are right, unless this winning streak allows them to pull way ahead they will come back down to Earth, but I think they do have a great chance of making the playoffs.

There's also the "Look what we are doing" overachieving attitude that fuels a team to win more. Plus the, "no one expected us to get this far" attitude that also allows teams to stay in contention and win things no one expected them to..... including WS. I can think of a couple teams that made it to the playoffs when everyone said they sucked and were playing over their talent....

Cincy right now is hot, the players are playing at top ability and JR is driving his team...... I really don't see why they can't win.

I really don't see how one can dismiss them as a fluke.

Quote:

Now, before you get all "pissy" about that, this can be a good thing even if they don't make the playoffs. It helps attendence and will help the front office in getting aquisitions for next year or before the trade.

I agree with what you are saying they need this boost to increase revenue so that next year they will be stronger.

Quote:

So, I'm guessing you're "pissy" over Arroyo because he still wants to play for Boston right?

No, he can "want" to pitch anywhere, I'm "pissy" over how he talked about Cincy and the attitude he had going in. Perhaps, it is what is driving his stellar year so far.

Quote:

Oh and as far as Willy Mo goes, he filled in an important part while Coco was out and did a fine job. He didn't put any steller numbers but he was consistent. IIRC, he's on the DL right now.

Point is, I'd still take Arroyo over Pena, so it was a good trade.

dylanmarsh · 06-09-2006, 08:28 AM

Can't we just kill this thread?

pan6467 · 06-09-2006, 08:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dylanmarsh

Can't we just kill this thread?

If you have nothing to add or don't like it don't post.

I happen to find nothing wrong with people posting about their teams and talking about them. Quite a few threads in this SPORTS forum are people discussing their teams. Sooooo why should this thread be killed?

I mean there is intelligent discussion and obviously not just me is posting so what is your problem?

Maybe you're still pissy because of the '75 World Series or hate the fact that your team traded Arroyo for Pena.... and well..... such is baseball.

Glory's Sun · 06-09-2006, 09:20 AM

I wasn't a fan of the Arroyo trade by any means.. but I know that Theo has something up his sleeve. I'm pleased with the Red Sox first day of draft picks.

Back to the Reds.. I'm dismissing them as a fluke because well I will have to see something more in order for me not to. Sure I will give them credit because they are winning, but let's see what happens after the AS break. I think you'll find Cincy in 3rd. :shrug:

Or maybe I'm still amped because Boston isn't playing as well as I would like.

pan6467 · 06-09-2006, 09:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by guccilvr

I wasn't a fan of the Arroyo trade by any means.. but I know that Theo has something up his sleeve. I'm pleased with the Red Sox first day of draft picks.

Back to the Reds.. I'm dismissing them as a fluke because well I will have to see something more in order for me not to. Sure I will give them credit because they are winning, but let's see what happens after the AS break. I think you'll find Cincy in 3rd. :shrug:

Or maybe I'm still amped because Boston isn't playing as well as I would like.

I wouldn't say they are a fluke because they have talent on that team. The pitching is just somehow playing far better than anyone thought. everyone knew they had the offense.

But as for dropping to 3rd, it's a possibility. Houston adds Clemens and that will pick them up a little, but they desperately need a healthy Oswald and Pettitte pitching better.

St. Louis.... they have the team but they have cracks in the foundation and a hurt Pujols.

I think if they are in contention at the break and after interleague play (which I think they have a far easier schedule than most other teams), management will shell some bucks out for a difference making trade. Perhaps, Webb, Willis, Westbrook, etc.

The true turning point for Cincy was the acquistion of Brandon Phillips from Cleve. He was someone who couldn't get it done in the Cleve. system but is definately living up to his potential in Cincy.

kutulu · 06-09-2006, 10:22 AM

Webb is about as unavailable as a player can get. Just like the DBacks' surge seems like a fluke, so does the Reds. They will not keep a team OBP of .350 and their pitching is not as good as they have seemed either. Not to mention the fact that they commit errors constantly.

I can't talk much right now though. Ever since the Grimsley incident, the DBacks have played like they just want to get back to the clubhouse as soon as possible. They seem so distracted that they are letting balls drop and swing at the first pitch all the time.

dylanmarsh · 06-09-2006, 03:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pan6467

If you have nothing to add or don't like it don't post.

I happen to find nothing wrong with people posting about their teams and talking about them. Quite a few threads in this SPORTS forum are people discussing their teams. Sooooo why should this thread be killed?

I mean there is intelligent discussion and obviously not just me is posting so what is your problem?

Maybe you're still pissy because of the '75 World Series or hate the fact that your team traded Arroyo for Pena.... and well..... such is baseball.

I was saying it very tongue-in-cheek. I'm Red Sox fan for Christ's sake. Of course I know what it means to discuss my team and have no one pay attention to anything I'm spouting-off about.

Enjoy the remainder of your half-season first place Reds. The Cards will take the division away from them soon enough -- just like the damn Yankees do to the Sox every year.

doodlebird · 07-05-2006, 08:49 PM

(life long reds fan, born in cincy til age 12, lived in beantown, now in texas.)

can't believe it took me this long to find this thread.
i guess i'm not in sports that often.

i'd like to publicly state "fuck the reds bullpen"
WTF.
tonight was yet another quality start wasted by the 'pen.
2 of the last four losses the red legs were 3 outs away from the win.
oh but tonight was even better,
'cause it happened twice in the same game.

the reds have some decent starting pitcher,
but the team doesn't stand a chance unless there's a CG
or maybe a 7 run lead...
and with this O, it's possible.

weighing in on some of the threads earlier topics,
i must say i was happy to see wily mo go in exchange for an arm.
i expected him to do more in boston.

o-brien sucked.
i was glad to see him axed.
sean casey for dave williams???
was that some kind of joke?
krivsky has done well.
ross, arroyo, hatterberg... all nice additions.
glad he got an extension.
he'll be a saint if he can get some help in the 'pen.

i think the reds can make the playoffs.
the NL is down a bit this year,
the cards are not as strong as they seem,
and the wild card is truly wild.
i'd say no less than 6 teams have a legit shot.

would a paul wilson return
or bringing up homer bailey help the cause??

pan6467 · 07-06-2006, 05:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by doodlebird

(life long reds fan, born in cincy til age 12, lived in beantown, now in texas.)

can't believe it took me this long to find this thread.
i guess i'm not in sports that often.

First allow me to say "Welcome Brother, Reds Fans and/or Gary Burbank fans always welcome."

Quote:

i'd like to publicly state "fuck the reds bullpen"
WTF.
tonight was yet another quality start wasted by the 'pen.
2 of the last four losses the red legs were 3 outs away from the win.
oh but tonight was even better,
'cause it happened twice in the same game.

the reds have some decent starting pitcher,
but the team doesn't stand a chance unless there's a CG
or maybe a 7 run lead...
and with this O, it's possible.

The rotation is young and damned good.... Harang (who deserves to be on the All Star team; Arroyo, who is phenomenal so far, but one has to ask is he truly this good or is the trade driving him so far this season and eventually he'll run out of gas, Milton isn't this great pitcher but he's doing ok..... as for Mays, well, they need to get Claussen up here fast.

The 'pen is their achilles' heel, how to better it, I don't know perhaps, it could be the bullpen coach and just motivation. Perhaps the Reds should try to trade Aurilia for some help, but even that is iffy. They need someone in the 'pen to step up and take leadership and light a fire under these guys asses and put a hunger for wins in their bellies.

Maybe try to get a Rob Dibble or Norm Charlton out of retirement to sit in the 'pen during games and teach these guys how to go in hungry, dirty and mean. Slap them upside their heads a bit and get the relief corps doing their jobs.

That gets done.... nothing will stop these Reds.

Quote:

weighing in on some of the threads earlier topics,
i must say i was happy to see wily mo go in exchange for an arm.
i expected him to do more in boston.

o-brien sucked.
i was glad to see him axed.
sean casey for dave williams???
was that some kind of joke?
krivsky has done well.
ross, arroyo, hatterberg... all nice additions.
glad he got an extension.
he'll be a saint if he can get some help in the 'pen.

i think the reds can make the playoffs.
the NL is down a bit this year,
the cards are not as strong as they seem,
and the wild card is truly wild.
i'd say no less than 6 teams have a legit shot.

would a paul wilson return
or bringing up homer bailey help the cause??

This Reds team definately has some good mojo and great chances this season. If Wilson and Claussen were able to come up and pitch like they truly could, get Mays to pitch a bit better.... and the fire in that bullpen's belly.... they could easily take the division. StL pitching sucks and the team is quitting on Larussa.

kutulu · 07-06-2006, 02:46 PM

Arroyo was a huge surprise although he is still playing way over his head. His DIPS ERA is 3.66 so there should be an upwards adjustment in his ERA at some point.

Quote:

o-brien sucked.
i was glad to see him axed.
sean casey for dave williams???

Despite Williams tanking, the Casey trade was a GREAT trade. They are getting better production from Hatterberg at 10% of the price. Throw in the rest of Williams' salary after being DFAed and they are still on top. There just isn't much of a market for light hitting 1Bman.

pan:

Harang is a nice pitcher but be realistic, he's not even close to being an all star. Above agerage, yes, All-Star? Not even close. Aside from wins (which are the WORST way to evaluate a pitcher's performance), all he has that is among the best is K's. There are 13 starting pitchers with better ERAs

Esen · 07-15-2006, 03:54 PM

The Reds are turning it around; however they are a few years off from making the world series.

They may be ablle to make the play-offs if anything with the wild card.
But the World Series is Mets country and will be for a while.

Its the Year of the Met.
I think a Kazmir or a Haren kind of pitcher would help the Reds.

cementor · 07-16-2006, 04:56 PM

How to make the Reds Great? Play the Rockies ALL the time! It would provide exciting games , but with the "Purple Pebbles" bull pen... always a "W"

kutulu · 07-17-2006, 08:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Esen

Its the Year of the Met.
I think a Kazmir or a Haren kind of pitcher would help the Reds.

Kazmir is a #1 starter with a K rate of almost 10 in the AL East. Look how much better Arroyo did after switching leagues, Kazmir would be a perrenial CYA candidate if he switched leagues and got on a good team. He's unavailable and even if he wasn't the price would be so freaking high. I can't believe the Mets traded him for Victor Zambrano. Could you imagine how unbeatable they would be with him instead? Probably one of the worst trades in the last 5 years.

Krivsky got bent over on the trade they just made with the Nuts. Two solid everyday players plus others for Royce Clayton and a couple of good relief pitchers?

pan6467 · 07-17-2006, 10:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kutulu

Kazmir is a #1 starter with a K rate of almost 10 in the AL East. Look how much better Arroyo did after switching leagues, Kazmir would be a perrenial CYA candidate if he switched leagues and got on a good team. He's unavailable and even if he wasn't the price would be so freaking high. I can't believe the Mets traded him for Victor Zambrano. Could you imagine how unbeatable they would be with him instead? Probably one of the worst trades in the last 5 years.

Krivsky got bent over on the trade they just made with the Nuts. Two solid everyday players plus others for Royce Clayton and a couple of good relief pitchers?

Clayton isn't that bad, he's a decent fielder and can get on base and score. Perhaps he's a team leader also? Lopez was a defensive liability and another with much hype but not very productive.

As for the rest of the trade: Kearns is ok but like Wily Mo hasn't lived up to the hype. Another hometown boy in Cincy (from Lex. Ky.) but that can only go so far. The Reds were getting killed because of their pen and had to make a move. Along with getting Guardado (relatively cheap), I think they have strengthened themselves and positioned themselves very well for post season.

If anything else comes from this season, it's the obvious fact that Cincy for whatever reason has very strong and good players but they don't seem to be able to live up to the hype.... perhaps the team needs to take a serious look at that.

Were Kearns, Pena, Larue, Wagner, Lopez, and so on..... as good as they were scouted and thus the minor system isn't developing properly.... OR is the scouting sub-par and the players are overachieving?

Considering Wagner (14th) and Kearns (7th) were first round picks and were in the top 1/2 of the round, yet 8 years after Kearns has been drafted we're still waiting for that potential to show. Wagner at 24 and 3 years in hasn't done anything positive to show he was worth the 1st round pick.

Still early in their careers and perhaps they can evolve into what everyone believed them to be..... but Cincy is in a playoff chase and couldn't wait.... they needed help NOW and got it. Great trade to keep a winning season for the Reds..... bad trade for fantasy owners who have Kearns and Lopez.... may have decent advantages for that waste of a team in Wash.

Kazmir is hard to read is he this year's Peavy or is he looking to be truly solid and be a Roy Oswalt.

doodlebird · 07-25-2006, 08:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pan6467

they needed help NOW and got it. Great trade to keep a winning season for the Reds.....

you still think it's a good trade?
i think they seriously undervalued kearns.
or maybe the nats saw that he'll never fill his potential.
i like kearns (i'm from lex too)
but i really wanted the reds to move him and get something out of it.

clayton has been solid,
despite getting run down at third on a little league fake out tonight.

it's majewski that dissappoints.
in his first 3 appearances he gave up 1, 2, and 1 ER in less than 2 IP.
notching a BS and an L in the process.
welcome to the team gary, thanks for joining.

i do like the everyday eddie pick up.
i hope he can hold it down.
and we'll see about bray.

i hope majewski comes around,
but if i were narron, i'm not so sure i'd give him more chances.

03-20-2006, 01:18 PM	#5 (permalink)
pan6467 Lennonite Priest Location: Mansfield, Ohio USA	Pena, while I like him is over-hyped. He may have potential.... but that's what it is potential. He may flourish in the AL but in the NL he wasn't the great fit. There were also rumors that he may not make the team and he was out of options so the REDS had to do something. As for Arroyo, you look at his numbers they aren't that bad. He knows how to win, and he may very well be a great fit in the NL. He's 29 so he's entering his prime, and most of all this shows the REDS are willing to spend some money again to try to better their pitching. Hopefully, Arroyo isn't a freaking Paul Wilson or Eric Milton. In fact, he could very easily turn out to be this year's big sleeper and do for Cincy what Millwood did for Cleveland last year. We shall see but, I also have a feeling the REDS ain't done dealin' yet. __________________ I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

03-21-2006, 02:58 AM	#7 (permalink)
pan6467 Lennonite Priest Location: Mansfield, Ohio USA	Could be Arroyo wasn't protesting the trade to loudly. Most Starters want to start not be locked into the 'pen. I have a feeling he didn't mind too much knowing he'd be a SP. As for hometown discounts and "sticking it to the owner". It's not the owners you are sticking it to, it's the fans and pretty soon the fans will tire of watching their fan favorites go elsewhere chasing that extra million or so. __________________ I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

03-21-2006, 05:59 AM	#8 (permalink)
MontanaXVI Junkie Location: Go A's!!!!	Obviously from looking at my avatar you can see why I have a certain...dislike...if you will for the Reds, but I don't know about this idea. While I am sure the Reds and their fans are glad to have another arm in the pen, one has to wonder, with WMP's potential if they could not have landed another arm from another club with a little bit more upside than Arroyo, not to say he is a bad pitcher, but I just don't think he has been a standout or shown a flash to make me think he could anchor a staff, I just see him as another middle of the pack rotation guy. __________________ Spank you very much

03-21-2006, 01:04 PM	#12 (permalink)
Halx Please touch this. Owner/Admin Location: Manhattan	So where's Griffey headed? __________________ You have found this post informative. -The Administrator [Don't Feed The Animals]

03-22-2006, 03:50 PM	#16 (permalink)
guy44 Somnabulist Location: corner of No and Where	I do kind of feel bad for Arroya, inasmuch as I can feel bad for a major leaguer making millions. But he did sign a contract that was somewhat lower par, and bought out his arb years, because he liked Boston and wanted to play for them. Basically, Boston got the hometown discount from a player and quickly, callously, traded him away. I'm not criticizing Boston for doing it - it was the right move, they traded from strength and depth (starting pitching) and got back a massively talented player in return - but I do think it shows that people shouldn't just criticize players for lacking loyalty. __________________ "You have reached Ritual Sacrifice. For goats press one, or say 'goats.'"

03-20-2006, 09:58 AM	#3 (permalink)
kutulu Junkie	I think O'Brian already screwed up. They traded Pena for Arroyo. Let's see, pre-arbitration OF with 40HR potential or Arroyo? Perhaps Arroyo will do well outside of the ALE, but he's probably washed up.

03-20-2006, 02:21 PM	#6 (permalink)
kutulu Junkie	With Cincy's current staff, Arroyo will be their best pitcher, it sure won't be Gosling (lol, I can't talk, after Webb, the DBacks have to pray). Pena is more than just potential though. He hit 26 hr in 04 and 19 in 05, in both seasons he had barely over 300 AB. His OBP and K/BB both need work (54/288 K/BB in 800 AB). As the Dominicans say "You don't walk off the island." I hear the Reds got cash back, Arroyo has a 3yr deal for about $11.25M. That's nice for a pitcher that is league average. Poor guy signed with them for a hometown discount. That's another reason why players need to squeeze whatever they can out of the owners. You don't give a hometown discount unless it comes with a full or limited NTC. They money works out great for the Reds, but an everyday player with tons of power is worth more than a back of the rotation pitcher. Even though the Reds will probably use him as a starter, the Sox had him slotted to be a reliever. We'll see if he passes his physical this time.

03-21-2006, 08:30 AM	#10 (permalink)
kutulu Junkie	There are three years of arbitration so they have him well beyond 2008. Also, he should be arb eligible after 2007, so he will be a free agent in 2010. Plate discipline is his major flaw. If he can learn to be more patient, he'll be a great player. 24 is a little old to learn plate discipline though.

03-21-2006, 12:20 PM	#11 (permalink)
Hanxter The Griffin	i never thought i'd ssee the sox pitcher heavy but they did need the bat so this looks like another stroke of theoism brilliance... the reds got him on the cheap when bronko took a cut on this contract - but even though wily mo is young he has been prone to injuries - more than likely he'll only play against left handed pitchers and leave trotter in against righties - trot is up for freebies after this season so the deal does look good for the sox having pena as insurance should nixon grow wings...

03-22-2006, 08:28 AM	#14 (permalink)
kutulu Junkie	Wow, he sure didn't hide any of his feelings about that!

03-22-2006, 09:31 AM	#15 (permalink)
Glory's Sun Registered User	That was a pretty good article. It's nice to hear a player talk about how much he loves playing where he is and not just bashing the GM for a trade. I give Arroyo alot of respect for that. As far as the deal goes, it's a smart one for the Sox, and who knows, Bronson may end up back in Boston eventually.

03-23-2006, 12:40 PM	#17 (permalink)
pan6467 Lennonite Priest Location: Mansfield, Ohio USA	I don't necessarily like what Arroyo said. I understand he was hurt and upset but to basically say "I'm just going to go and do my time" like it's a fucking prison sentence is a pathetic attitude. I cannot feel sorry for a man that makes millions of dollars (multiple times more than I will probably make in this lifetime). For him to say what he did shows me how fucked up the attitudes are in baseball. You don't have to be ecstatic but come on...... at least say something like, "Boston was cool but I'm a Red now and they must have truly wanted me. I'll prove that they made the right decision. Who knows maybe I'll get to beat the Sox in the World Series." That would have been class....... not whining and saying "I'll go and play, but my heart won't be in it and I'm just pitching there till my contract runs out and I'm getting the fuck out of that Hell-hole." No class. FANS run this and to talk like he did shows no respect to the fans, to his new team or for the MILLIONS he'll make playing a fucking game. __________________ I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?" Last edited by pan6467; 03-23-2006 at 12:42 PM..

03-26-2006, 12:57 AM	#21 (permalink)
guy44 Somnabulist Location: corner of No and Where	I just don't get why anyone gives a flying fuck what any of these athletes say. Who cares? Why get so angry? What difference does it make if Bronson Arroyo is a complete dick or a heavenly saint? Sometimes I feel like this overreaction to athletes' attitudes is like the male equivelant to the millions of women who freak out if Brad and Jen break up or whatever. It. Just. Doesn't. Matter. __________________ "You have reached Ritual Sacrifice. For goats press one, or say 'goats.'"

06-08-2006, 10:17 PM	#23 (permalink)
pan6467 Lennonite Priest Location: Mansfield, Ohio USA	BOOM 1ST PLACE BABY 8 in a row and aweekend series with the poor cursed Cubs..... Pujols OUT....lol Griffey a little sore but coming out strong, Freel getting hot, Arroyo (who I am still pissy over), Harang and Milton pitching semi-decent (as an understatment)..... Oh yeah and what has Wily Mo been doing? And where's Sean Casey? Let me know when we miss them, will you? CINCY ROCKS..... the REDS pulling ahead, the BENGALS getting tough..... Cincy is on the rise. As for Cleveland.... well we have King James..... a baseball team full of underachieving crybabies who truly look like they play games to lose.... and a football team that has a serious identity problem and cannot figure out which direction they want to go in so they are in constant "rebuild" status. But........ on a lighter note..... did I mention CINCY ROCKS __________________ I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?" Last edited by pan6467; 06-08-2006 at 10:22 PM..

06-09-2006, 03:37 AM	#24 (permalink)
Glory's Sun Registered User	Enjoy it while you can. I can say with confidence that Cincy will not make the playoffs. Their defense stinks and their pitching is horrible. Sure they are playing well right now, but they are playing better than they really are. A team can only do that for so long. Now, before you get all "pissy" about that, this can be a good thing even if they don't make the playoffs. It helps attendence and will help the front office in getting aquisitions for next year or before the trade. So, I'm guessing you're "pissy" over Arroyo because he still wants to play for Boston right? Oh and as far as Willy Mo goes, he filled in an important part while Coco was out and did a fine job. He didn't put any steller numbers but he was consistent. IIRC, he's on the DL right now.

06-09-2006, 08:28 AM	#26 (permalink)
dylanmarsh Sleepy Head	Can't we just kill this thread?

06-09-2006, 09:20 AM	#28 (permalink)
Glory's Sun Registered User	I wasn't a fan of the Arroyo trade by any means.. but I know that Theo has something up his sleeve. I'm pleased with the Red Sox first day of draft picks. Back to the Reds.. I'm dismissing them as a fluke because well I will have to see something more in order for me not to. Sure I will give them credit because they are winning, but let's see what happens after the AS break. I think you'll find Cincy in 3rd. :shrug: Or maybe I'm still amped because Boston isn't playing as well as I would like.

06-09-2006, 10:22 AM	#30 (permalink)
kutulu Junkie	Webb is about as unavailable as a player can get. Just like the DBacks' surge seems like a fluke, so does the Reds. They will not keep a team OBP of .350 and their pitching is not as good as they have seemed either. Not to mention the fact that they commit errors constantly. I can't talk much right now though. Ever since the Grimsley incident, the DBacks have played like they just want to get back to the clubhouse as soon as possible. They seem so distracted that they are letting balls drop and swing at the first pitch all the time.

07-05-2006, 08:49 PM	#32 (permalink)
doodlebird pío pío Location: on a branch about to break	(life long reds fan, born in cincy til age 12, lived in beantown, now in texas.) can't believe it took me this long to find this thread. i guess i'm not in sports that often. i'd like to publicly state "fuck the reds bullpen" WTF. tonight was yet another quality start wasted by the 'pen. 2 of the last four losses the red legs were 3 outs away from the win. oh but tonight was even better, 'cause it happened twice in the same game. the reds have some decent starting pitcher, but the team doesn't stand a chance unless there's a CG or maybe a 7 run lead... and with this O, it's possible. weighing in on some of the threads earlier topics, i must say i was happy to see wily mo go in exchange for an arm. i expected him to do more in boston. o-brien sucked. i was glad to see him axed. sean casey for dave williams??? was that some kind of joke? krivsky has done well. ross, arroyo, hatterberg... all nice additions. glad he got an extension. he'll be a saint if he can get some help in the 'pen. i think the reds can make the playoffs. the NL is down a bit this year, the cards are not as strong as they seem, and the wild card is truly wild. i'd say no less than 6 teams have a legit shot. would a paul wilson return or bringing up homer bailey help the cause?? __________________ xoxo doodle

07-15-2006, 03:54 PM	#35 (permalink)
Esen TFPer formaly known as Chauncey Location: North East	The Reds are turning it around; however they are a few years off from making the world series. They may be ablle to make the play-offs if anything with the wild card. But the World Series is Mets country and will be for a while. Its the Year of the Met. I think a Kazmir or a Haren kind of pitcher would help the Reds. __________________ ~Esen What is everyone doing in my room?

07-16-2006, 04:56 PM	#36 (permalink)
cementor Crazy Location: Denver	How to make the Reds Great? Play the Rockies ALL the time! It would provide exciting games , but with the "Purple Pebbles" bull pen... always a "W" __________________ Cementor If I was any better I'd have to be twins!