Seeker

My perspective seems to be different from expressed popular opinion and I am not sure how best to convey/discuss my opinion. I have adapted a recent journal entry in my attempt to share my thoughts and open a discussion about our views on the subject of how to handle the act of cheating itself, or how we handle being cheated on.

I am in no way stating that cheating is right or justified. I am looking at it from a more compassionate plateau in the same way that you could look at your child or sibling that has issues with drug addiction, compulsive lying or kleptomania. Generally you don’t write these people off, you try to help them face their problems and overcome them.

I do also understand, as with anyone who doesn’t want to change their ways, there may come a time when you have to walk away. In my opinion, walking away without the anger and hurt associated with these emotional relationships is a more worthy endeavour than carrying the burden of hate and resentment with you throughout your life.

I now offer my thoughts open for discussion. *Takes a deep breath and hits ‘Submit’*

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The Cheater
Ultimately the temptation to cheat, or the act of cheating, points out to me a struggle with issues regarding the self. It is a function to alert you to look more deeply within yourself and ask questions. What do you feel is lacking in the current relationship? What do you really want and need? How can you honour yourself and honour the person you are with? These are big questions, and you don't come into life with an ability to be a perfect person. You need to learn it.

We all need to find ourselves the hard way. Without going through this process how are we to really learn? In the early stages of building or having 'real' relationships this drama with cheating is more prevalent because we are discovering ourselves through a commitment to another. This is a natural and necessary process, and this is how we learn those aspects about ourselves.

Once a Cheater, Always a Cheater
... I think not! You can make a commitment to yourself, after the fact(act), to never cheat again and handle things differently next time. The trick is to honestly face ourselves and others. Those that continue to cheat are being lazy, they are people who want to dodge their responsibility to learn from this process. They don't face themselves and therefore are stuck in this destructive pattern. I think it's sad.

As stated above, sometimes we have to find things out the hard way. Just because we have made a mistake once or twice, does not write off any potential to learn and adjust from the experience. Really, I think if it were true, “once a cheater, always a cheater” there wouldn’t be the vast amount of honourable people to have relationships with that we eventually come across. I know of many people, whom I respect, that have come through issues of infidelity in their relationships and have learnt a great deal from it.

The Partner of a Cheater
I think it's how you want to deal with the situation. If you truly love somebody, you can forgive them (and by that I mean choose to work with them and through this problem) and help them face themselves. That is the ultimate act of love in my eyes. Just kicking someone to the curb because they cheated is lazy and selfish. You are more absorbed with what's been done to you rather than looking for a way for both of you to grow beyond the situation and resolve anything for real.

Unfortunately, even if you love someone enough to work through it, the cheater may not want to change, (insert many reasons and variations here), then instead of discarding that person like waste, at least try to feel some compassion for the denial they are in, and move on. Being totally judgemental and without compassion is just as bad as being a cheater... they are both very sad states to be in.

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__________________
To those who wander but who are not lost...

~ Knowledge is not something you acquire, it is something you open yourself to.

alansmithee

I would be hard pressed to think of anything more ridiculous. If someone cheats, you have no obligation to help them with anything. You were trying to be considerate, by sharing your life. But the cheater obviously doesn't find that good enough. Help them face themself? What a pile of crap. Dumping someone for cheating being lazy and selfish? I can't take this seriously whatsoever. All this seems like is a way of blaming the victim or wronged party. This is akin to a spousal abuser making the "you made me do it" claim. If you cheat, it is YOUR problem and if all your partner does is break up with you, you should count yourself lucky. I am hard pressed to think of anything more low than cheating on someone, if you are in a serious relationship.

Seriously, there is no defense, no justification. If you feel the need to cheat, either break up with your partner, or talk about the issues that make you feel that way. It's cowardly, low, and disgusting to do anything but.

Mantus

Hay Seeker, (edit, sorry Seather, the names are close :P)

Cheating is not a disease. It's bad judgement.
It's also a breach of social contract - a subjective concept.
So think of it however you like.

I don't think feelings sorry for a cheater is any healthier then raging out on them.

As for giving them a second chance. Depends on the time invested and level of the affair. If a person is in a five year relationship and their partner gets shitfaced and fucks someone, well that happens. It's a sign of trouble but can be dealth with. On the other hand if their partner has an month long-mouth full affair; that's a good sign that your relationship is just an empty shell.

I know you are probably looking for a more thought out response as you put allot of thought into what you posted. It's complicated though and if there is infidelity involved the relationship is in serious trouble. So the standard responce of "...cheated on you, dump thier ass" is justified by the law of averages. Not everyone can climb out of such a ditch.

On top of that, I worry about denial on the victim's part. Do people know how to people know how to re-start a relationship after such an event? Forgiveness is easy; patching it up aint. If someone has an affair they are showing disrespect for their partner. How do get up from such a blow? If there is no repsect how can anything else happen?

Thoughts.

Seaver

I have to agree with what alans said. The Cheater is the lazy and selfish one. Alcohol is NEVER an excuse, for all it does is unveil what someone truely thinks. If they cheat while intoxicated, they've been wanting to anyways.

I've never cheated once. I've been drunk to the point where I was quite litterally holding onto the grass to keep from falling off the earth, but I have not once so much as kissed another girl while in a relationship.

Alcohol is never an excuse for cheating. Alcohol simply brings out what is there.
Cheating is not an accident. You dont walk down the street, trip on the curb and end up naked with another man.
Cheating is not a disease. You dont cheat because someone sneezed on you at work.
There are MANY choices involved.

A cheater has no excuse in my opinion. While their relationship may not fufill them, that is up to them to determine and end prior to the event.

alansmithee

I actually think that the one time drunkenness is worse. To me, it means that the relationship is so worthless that someone would risk it for one night of possible pleasure. But if there's an ongoing affair, it seems that that person is looking for soemthing else that might not be found in the current relationship.

Mantus

I've had periods of bad judgement while while under one influence or another. So I can't throw stones less I break my walls.

An affair though, it's a consious, planned effort.

alansmithee

True, but it's trading something that was precious for something that might be of equal value. It's one thing to think that your SO left you for the love of their life, or a soulmate. But to know that you were cheated on with some nameless bum/bitch at last call, just shows that they never really valued the relationship anyways.

And I've always thought that your walls will get broken in life anyways, so throw as many stones as possible and get it over with yourself

Mantus

I agree with that.

I am just looking at it from a "save it or not" perspective. Obviously if we've been together for just a short time then it's OVER. Right away. But what if you've been together for four years? What if you got kids? All shades of grey there.

If it was a dumb act then there is something there to save.

An affair on the other hand, well as Gir says,
Doom! Doom do-doom doom do-doom. Doomy doomy doomy doom!

I'll have to more to warmer climates first. It's bloody cold outside

Ustwo

This would be a hard subject for me to relate to since I’ve never cheated or been cheated on. I don’t claim any moral superiority in this, it just never became an issue in past relationships and would never be an issue in my marriage (and this is not me being naïve).

What I can say is in the past, when cheating may have tempted me, the reason for the desire to cheat was pure lust. It wasn’t due to something lacking in the current relationship, just a desire for sex with someone else.

I have a hard time seeing cheating as a sort of disease, as you seem to be saying. While the desire for sex may be instinctive the control of it is very voluntary. While you are perhaps correct in saying ‘once a cheater, always a cheater’ isn’t true, I think being a cheater shows something of your character and self control. I’d say once a cheater, the more likely you are to cheat again would be accurate.

Now lets take this to a relationship and I understand your logic behind staying with a cheater or at least not hating them. As most people on this board are not married yet, my advice would be once he/she cheats you should leave them. Life is too short, there are too many people out there, and its not worth investing ones time and emotions on the dating equivalent of an inside straight. After you are married and have a lot of time/emotions/kids in the marriage I can see trying to work it out, but even then I think the relationship has been permanently wounded at its foundation, because it removes the trust in the relationship.

Perhaps kicking the cheater to the curb is selfish, but all acts are selfish. People do things because they give the most pleasure or the least pain. When I go to work I do so because it gives me less pain than not going to work and dealing with the fall out. When I decide to waste a night playing video games I do so because it gives me more pleasure than any other available actives, with the least effort. This concept goes beyond sexuality obviously but apply here as well. If you don’t kick a cheater to the curb its because it gives you the least amount of pain, your personality is such that you would feel bad for abandoning them which is worse then the pain of being cheated on. Even if in the long run its worse because they give you more pain, you still don’t have the will to say enough is enough. This is why I think for many, not breaking it off with a cheater is more of a weakness than a strength. Its your desire to continue the love which overcomes the pain they give you. It reminds me a bit of the battered wife, who makes excuses for her husband and her injuries. Cheating is basically emotional battery, no matter what the reason it was done for.

__________________
Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host

Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

Jinn

If you stopped posting in politics, Mr. Ustwo, I'd say you were never wrong..

Well said.. I would quote you for truth, but its quite verbose

__________________
"I'm typing on a computer of science, which is being sent by science wires to a little science server where you can access it. I'm not typing on a computer of philosophy or religion or whatever other thing you think can be used to understand the universe because they're a poor substitute in the role of understanding the universe which exists independent from ourselves." - Willravel

Seeker

First I'd like to say thanks for your responses and giving me a chance to have this discussion. I would also like to point out that in giving any opposing statements in regard to your responses, I am not saying that you are wrong in your reasoning or responses.

The issue of cheating to me, is an extremely 'grey' area and I don't believe that every instance is as black and white, or as simple as people think. Cheating is related to relationships - two people coming together, each with different upbringings, experiences and personalities. That in itself is a massive concept for me even before you bring in the more common difficulties, such as beliefs, ideals, and heritage.

Mantus, somewhere in my opening statement I have given you the impression that I think cheating is like a disease. Perhaps this was an error on my part, I have stated that I don't think it's justified, I think of it more as 'faulty logic', and faulty logic somewhere along the line it needs to be brought to light and adjusted. Unfortunately, the only time this faulty logic is brought to light is in the situation, the relationship. This is where I say it's an opportunity to work through it, kicking the cheater to the curb will not help where faulty logic is concerned, actually it may reinforce it.

Ustwo, I don't believe everything we do has to have a selfish flavour, I think if we can take a step away from ourselves for just a few minutes we have the opportunity to see a bigger picture. Sometimes that bigger picture will show you that you're an idiot and need to remove yourself from a situation, but just sometimes you'll see a bigger picture that can be worked through and you'll see it as an opportunity to give fully of yourself to another, and that to me is the point of relationships. It's a two way street, not just what you get from it but what you also put in.

__________________
To those who wander but who are not lost...

~ Knowledge is not something you acquire, it is something you open yourself to.

Seaver

I think you're overthinking it.

When people cheat, I'd venture to say 99% of people didnt reason it through. It was in the head of the moment. If people thought about it, then they're just cold and cruel to their partner. Most were in a weird emotional state and/or in raw lust for the other person.

It's not faulty logic you can debate someone out of. You can't logic someone out of wanting pizza while they're on a diet. You can convince them it's a bad idea, you can even convince them not to (for a short while). But you cant convince them not to want it.

Cheating is the same way, there are people who cant control their desire to. There are people who can but in a moment of weakness dont. And then there are those who put their partner before that lustful want.

Daoust

Well I may be weird, and I may be in a screwed up place, and I may be a jackass, but I think about cheating a fair bit. I think it's kind of natural. I think about who I'd like to cheat with, how I'd cover it up...

but ultimately I come back to the fact that cheating will never give me the peace or the fulfillment I'm looking for. It's all about the grass is greener... But it isn't. I love my wife and I would never do anything so selfish...

But that doesn't mean I don't thik about it.

__________________
I have faith in a few things - divinity and grace
But even when I'm on my knees I know the devil preys

Seeker

Seaver, I agree that a lot of people don't reason it through. I would also say that many people who do cheat and try to justify it at a later time, honestly try to convince themselves that they are justified.

As an example from the "Can you be driven to cheat thread", an issue was brought up about neglect being the justifying factor for a cheating action. My response there is that regaining your self esteem (through the acceptance of another when cheating) from a neglect factor compromises your self respect and honesty... it's not justified, it's a false fix. That is faulty reasoning / logic. The underlying problem is a self-esteem issue. Obviously, the cheater has no grasp of how to handle being treated neglectfully, and that to me is a bigger problem to the individual than an act of being unfaithful. The problem of not being able to handle their own self esteem will continue to create problems long after they have picked themselves up off the curb, licked their wounds, and moved on to a new relationship, possibly to even do the whole thing over.

My main point with this thread is to broaden the scope of issues related to cheaters and cheating, why the zero tolerance before looking at why it happened?

__________________
To those who wander but who are not lost...

~ Knowledge is not something you acquire, it is something you open yourself to.

taboo

if someone is constantly neglected by their SO, and they've tried to work through it, and still no improvements, they start looking outside of that relationship, in the hopes of finding someone who will fill that void.

yes, it is a temporary fix, maybe even a fake fix, but when someone is desperate, that might actually do something for them. I'm not supporting one side or the other: I'm just trying to look at it from another point of view. Like looking at that person as a bit of a victim, as someone you want to help.

Yes, I think it is a lack of self-respect ect, if you focus your attention on a third party, but then again, I think it's only natural, and considering we all want to feel loved and wanted and appreciated, looking for someone who will make you feel that way is sometimes the only way out.

Seaver

My point is it's NOT logically based if one uses logic to justify afterwards.

The cheating happend. THEN he/she claims to be neglected/lonely/etc in order to justify the action. Thus... the logic that it is logically based does not hold water.

If it were logically based, one would simply end the bad relationship.

If Relationship A = bad, Then no relationship A =! bad. Thus no relationship A = good.

It's not complicated reasoning. However you cant do.

If bad decision made, and self =! bad, Then reason =! based off of self (i.e. outside reasons). If Reason = Blame, and Reason is not based off self, then Reason lay elsewhere (he/she drove me to cheat).

(=! means does not equal just fyi)

maleficent

Then they get out of the relationship. Period. End of discussion.

You either fix the relationship... or you end it the relationship.. Blaming someone else doesn't fly.

How dare someone else's cowardice cause hurt to others.

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Seeker

Yes it may be cowardice, but it can also be confusion or just a total lack of understanding.

I think it's unfortunate that people sometimes have no option but to learn the hard way, and it hurts for everyone but I don't think everyone comes with the ability to act perfectly in every aspect of a relationship. It's how humanity works... we stuff up, we think ridiculous things... it's human.

I put the ability to learn through our mistakes before a judgement to write someone off totally... but that could just be me. We all operate differently.

__________________
To those who wander but who are not lost...

~ Knowledge is not something you acquire, it is something you open yourself to.

Toaster126

The best predictor of future behavior is past behavior. I loathe cheaters and cheating because I loathe liars and hypocrites. Of course it is selfish to refuse to go out with cheaters. Of course some people can cheat, learn from their mistakes, and never do it again. That doesn't mean I need to be the one they decide to change their ways with or that it is a bad thing to look after your own mental health over a partners.

__________________
"The question isn't who is going to let me, it's who is going to stop me." (Ayn Rand)
"The truth is that our finest moments are most likely to occur when we are feeling deeply uncomfortable, unhappy, or unfulfilled. For it is only in such moments, propelled by our discomfort, that we are likely to step out of our ruts and start searching for different ways or truer answers." (M. Scott Peck)

maleficent

If that were ever said to me - "Oh you're confused..." "or you just don't understand..." I'd bet my last nickel that they were trying to manipulate the situation to their advantage - so it's not really their fault.. you're just confused.. you don't understand me so I had to do go out and shag another person...

Confusion and lack of understanding are all about a lack of communication... if person A couldn't make person B understand something... maybe person A should have tried a different approach... Lack of understanding is an excuse.

I'm not sure I beleive that once a cheater always a cheater.... i think perhaps that people can mend their ways -- but i personally, would have a hard time taking a cheater back because trust is very difficult to earn and I'm not sure i could ever forget... forgive yes.. but forget? Eh -- I'm not that nice a person...

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Seeker

Yep, sorry Mal, I should have been more specific...

Cowardice - you know what you are doing is wrong and wont face it.

Confusion or total lack of understanding - you have no idea why you are wrong, to all intents and purposes you truely believe that's how it works and you're justified for doing it.

That was more the flavour to my reply. I do see where people can 'use' confusion or a lack of understanding for justification however. It's the subtle differences caused by intentions.

__________________
To those who wander but who are not lost...

~ Knowledge is not something you acquire, it is something you open yourself to.

taboo

why is the focus all on "who is to blame"?
point is that there is cheating going on, not who is to blame.
something is not functioning properly in a relationship, and it's both the people's fault, if we want to throw blame around. It's never just about one person, about the cheater. Things go both ways. ying yangggg

alansmithee

Wrong. The reason there is blame is because one person is doing something improper. It isn't a blameless situation. If you have a problem in a relationship, you end it, not cheat.

taboo

alright, point taken, but, sometimes that is easier said than done.
if you're married and have kids, and you make a mistake, it's not as easy to just pick up and leave, because there are so many issues to take care of and it might be best to stick with your SO for a while and try to work things out if possible..no?

JustJess

You know, I had a much longer post in mind... but it comes down to something pretty simple for me.

Cheating is wrong, no question. There are some who simply can't be faithful, and that's unfortunate for their partners. Those types should be more honest about their needs, but often are not, and I believe that is the source of most people's extreme emotions on the subject - they've been the victims of a person who is dishonest about their nature/needs. That sucks, and is deserving of scorn and anger. The same in new relationships - if you can't even make it through a few months, why are you wasting the other person's time??

However, there are those who simply MADE A MISTAKE. We are only human. Sometimes we are in situations where we're frustrated, unhappy, confused, and very emotional... and sometimes people act out in ways that are negative. That doesn't mean the person is unsalvagable, but certainly that there are relationship issues to be worked out. It would be nice if everyone could discuss things before they evolved into issues like cheating, but frankly, that's just not reality.

I think it's important to realize that in relationships, there is so much more going on. The cheater may not be evil or heartless, but reacting poorly. If you made a mistake and hurt someone you loved, wouldn't you want the chance to change, and learn from your mistake?

Not to be taken the wrong way - I don't believe that cheating is a viable way to showcase problems in the relationship. But that sometimes, we just do stupid things. "Kicking them to the curb" isn't always the right way to fix things.

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My heart knows me better than I know myself, so I'm gonna let it do all the talkin'.

Hektore

To me honesty is the most important thing in a relationship and as a part of that cheating is the most hurtful thing you can do to a person. That doesn't mean I would never take the person back however.

The way I see it there are two types of cheating: "affairs" and "one night stands". I think these two are pretty self explanatory and my opinion of what to do depends on what type of cheating we're talking about.

If it's an affair that represents serious issues in the relationship that needed to be fixed and should have been brought up long before the cheater goes after another person. If you have problems with a relationship you aren't interested in fixing then you end it before you go looking for another one. This is unforgivable.

With a one night stand however I feel a bit differently, While this still shows a disregard for both the relationship and the other person's emotions, to me it seems like this can be the result of a temporary lapse in judgement or moment of weakness. It seems like the sort of thing that a person can do and have it truly be a mistake, that they really do regret and something that they will never do again. In that case, if it's a person who I've been in a relationship with for a long while and I really care about I could really forgive them and move past it. But only once would I take the person back, someone who repeatedly goes out and fools around on their SO is just as bad as someone in an affair to me.

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The advantage law is the best law in rugby, because it lets you ignore all the others for the good of the game.

Seeker

I think I'm having difficulty expressing the points I was/am trying to get to with this thread. I'd like to try and make it a bit clearer with this post.

We are all aware that the act of cheating in a relationship is a violation of trust and respect for the person that the cheater made a commitment to. Betrayal. It's not the physical act itself, it's the lie, deceit, lack of regard... etc, the betrayal. Doing something that you know is going to hurt the other party in the relationship, and it's a social given, it makes it wrong.

My take is that if someone knows the social code, and knows that 'cheating' is wrong and does it anyway, how are they fully right in their picnic basket? Despite the reputation they adopt, the social stoning and the 'less than human' treatment they receive, it still happens!

Cheating has and probably will happen for ages to come. Social outcasting hasn't changed that. Why? It's like beating your head against a brick wall... I don't think it's because the message didn't/doesn't get across.

My initial post was offering a different way of approaching it. We can't control the behaviour of others, but we can change our own perspectives so as to not make it such a painful and hate-ridden reality of life. Reality is what you make it.

For me personally, I see betrayal as an opportunity. An opportunity to look at myself and another and deal with it in a manner that I can accept and live comfortably with, without carrying an emotional suitcase of luggage around for the rest of my life.

When I see expressions of anger, hatred and disdain directed toward issues of cheating, in almost a racist way, I see countless people held hostage to past experiences of pain, and it's not making a scrap of difference. Cheating continues and no one is miraculously healed from their past experiences with it.

My intention here was to only offer a different perspective in which to deal with cheaters and cheating. This was an attempt to broaden the scope because I don't see the black & white, clear-cut model working. *shrugs*

__________________
To those who wander but who are not lost...

~ Knowledge is not something you acquire, it is something you open yourself to.

maleficent

It sounds almost as though you're saying that -- ok make that commitment to someone else - but if you can't be faithful - well that's OK too... Personally, I would have an expectation that a person who is involved with me would be faithful to me-- and if they can't or won't -- then there's a problem that needs addressing.

why not explore the possibility of an open relationship where you aren't morally bound to be faithful (as long as you and your partner's ground rules are set in advance).

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Seaver

Wow... that's got to be the most depressing view on human relation's I've run accross. It happens so we have to accept it happens and move on?

Sorry when you enter into a monagamous relationship with someone, that's one of the most important parts of the relationship.

If someone "cant" stay monogamous, they shouldnt enter a relationship. If someone breaks that code of managamy, it's completely left up to their partner how to deal with it. It's not racism because it was a choice, according to your logic we should accept that people will kill and still stay married to them.

I get the feeling you've cheated but never been cheated on. There are very few things as hurtful as that betrayal. People are naturally stigmatized because others remember how hurt they were (most have been cheated on in the past).

While it wont make you cheat in the future, it's a damn good indication of future actions (those in juvi-hall generally tend to move on to real prisons later, not a guarantee but a good indication).

Seeker

No, I don't think being unfaithful is Ok too... this is probably where in trying to make my point it looks like I'm swinging from one extreme to the other *sigh*...

You're very right when you say that there is an expectation to be faithful, but what happens if they can't or won't and both parties don't catch it to address it... you are only left with the aftermath... then what do you do... and in most cases it's "kick to the curb" and "you've done it once you'll do it again" ... why is there no room for discussion afterward?

You are also very right with possibilities of open relationships... why isn't the concept of open relationships more widely accepted? That would make more sense in the earlier stages (younger people) because there would be a socially acceptable way to define yourself in relation to others... it really makes more sense and it's not as damaging.

__________________
To those who wander but who are not lost...

~ Knowledge is not something you acquire, it is something you open yourself to.

Seeker

Actually, and maybe ironically, it's the other way around...

I have been betrayed, but I have come close to betraying another and I'm not joking when I say that I had a real battle with it. It was a difficult time.

__________________
To those who wander but who are not lost...

~ Knowledge is not something you acquire, it is something you open yourself to.

maleficent

There is room for discussion afterwards...

Cheating isn't really cut and dried... which I think you acknowledge.. there are different levels of cheating -for lack of a better term-- There's the person who's a serial cheater -that's staying with the wife "for the sake of the kids" or it's just too expensive to get divorced... I'm sorry -that person deserves to be taken to the cleaners... There's the person who picks up a boyfriend on the side because her husband was busy trying to build a life for them -- she didn't get the attention she got when they were dating -- so she had a boyfriend... Idon't have much sympathy for her either-- she should have opened her mouth rather than compound the problem... Then there's the accidental cheater... which I still have some issues with - but it's the person who has a moment of weakness... and for lack of a better term - made a mistake... They've seen the hurt they caused and they wouldn't do it again... that person should be forgiven and get on with the life.. the other two -- nope - I'm not that nice a person..

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Seeker

So this person clearly can't see the bigger picture. They think they are doing the right thing by staying "for the sake of the kids" or whatever, and yes, that person needs a jolt (cleaned out in this case)... but that then gives the cheater the opportunity to see the error of his ways. They could realise the bigger picture, the reality of seeing how they have hurt another, and in reality was only hurting themself by not being honest and compromising themselves (thinking he had the best of both worlds whilst really only limiting his ability to find a truer happiness). Or, they could forever think they are justified because they were doing their partner a favour by "sticking around" for whatever reason.

She learns the lesson (the hard way) of communication and honesty. I don't know how many times good advice here (tfp in general) is "communication"... I don't think it's something we are all injected with at birth... we need to learn it, and that relies mainly on how well we know ourselves, our self-esteem v's our fears, etc...

I'm not saying keel over and take a beating, take it all on. I just see where there can be more room for compassion and broader vision in these situations.

__________________
To those who wander but who are not lost...

~ Knowledge is not something you acquire, it is something you open yourself to.

maleficent

How does the cheater not know what they are doing is wrong? No one could be that deluded? Not only are they hurting their spouse... ya know the person they made vows to... but they are hurting their children because they are not showing them what a good relationship is (and the kids will repeat the mistakes of the parents)....But Mr My Wife Doesn't Understand Me is also hurting every woman that he encounters and is not completely available to but pretends to be... all because he's afraid of losing a few dollars in a divorce settlement.

This fella needs to be castrated and sent to a boys home where he can't do any damage...

I've come across way too many like him over the years... He doesn't deserve sympathy.. He doesn't deserve a second chance... There's an old expression -- you reap what you sow-- If there is any karmic retribution -- He will get his...

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Mantus

I think the one last bit needs to be cleared up.

You say it's wrong to get angry. I dissagre. Anger can be a powerful tool when it comes to dealing with these situations. It helps to break the habitual bond between two people.

Yet I can see what you are saying Seeker. You are saying that the "blindly" painting the offending party as in the wrong and "evil" keeps us from learning lessons. Opportunities for self evaluation are lost.
For starters they are conforming to a fictional concept. Not everyone can handle that. On top of this, life is compilicated, there are reasons people might wish to stay in a realationship while pursuing romantic endeavours. Some couples even do this openly.

Finally,

Many women, are attracted to one type of male and wish to live with another. The smart one's stay with their boy toy while keeping their love affairs secret. The dumb ones dump the thier boy in hope of reforming the guy they fell for. That's selfish, but some people are like that.

In general, a bad realationship is better then no relationship at all. So you see people staying in a relationship while scouting for something better. It's a logical yet underhanded way to do things.

Are all examples of what could be.

Seeker

Mantus, this is my main point.

I haven't said you 'shouldn't' get angry... I haven't said it's a forgivable offence... I haven't said I feel sorry for cheaters. I am not trying to change the world here, I have just noticed room for consideration when it comes to cheaters and issues of cheating.

My own experiences with this issue has shown me that there are plenty of 'grey' areas on this topic and although I am not a perfect person, I am a good person. I have learned a lot by being betrayed myself, and betraying another's trust, I hold myself accountable in both instances (which is why I would consider myself to be a cheater even if the situation wasn't exactly a clear cut case of cheating). I am not stupid, I know there are people out there that are repeat offenders, but I don't see how we can paint everybody with the same brush when it comes to this issue. I really don't think that's fair.

__________________
To those who wander but who are not lost...

~ Knowledge is not something you acquire, it is something you open yourself to.

Seeker

Upon reflection I didn't want this thread to be about my thoughts v's defending the cheaters perspective... I wanted to discuss other aspects or avenues for dealing with issues of cheaters and being a victim of cheating.

Way back in the beginning I missed focusing on Mantus's questions here (and I'm sorry I missed it, I was just too caught up on other points).
There are other great points here, like Mal's point of open-relationships, and my point about dealing with the aftermath for both parties (the cheater and the victim). I'd really like the focus to be 'working through issues of cheaters and cheating', how can it be accomplished?

I think there is a lot of room for thought and discussion, but maybe not. I'll leave that to you to decide...

__________________
To those who wander but who are not lost...

~ Knowledge is not something you acquire, it is something you open yourself to.