longbough

it's interesting that, in the US, we're much more permissive about violence than we are about sex (e.g. in our television and in our video games etc.) - as if sex was a more dangerous idea to give to our children.

On television we can see people getting stabbed or shot multiple times in prime time - but one bare female breast at the Superbowl halftime show is considered an outrage

aren't we ultimately just displacing sexual urges in our adolesents with violent urges?

Mantus

They are not part of the same instinctive structure.

The sexual revolution is rather new. People are afraid of the unknown, they have no idea of how to control it or where it will lead.

longbough

I disagree. The sexual revolution was much stronger and open in the 60s and 70s - even in the media and films. Today it's much more restrictive than it used to be.

Please define "instinctive structure."

When I say "displacement of sexual urges" I'm really referring to sexual repression ... In the US we're much more sexually repressed than just about every European country. When I lived abroad it became glaringly apparent - I'm sure I'm not the only one who notices this. In Madrid I would glance at a well-dressed pretty woman walking by and she would smile back at me. In the US a similar glance is often interpreted as rude objectification. In the UK I could compliment a woman on her appearance without having it construed as a sexual intrusion. I'm not saying that women in the US overreact - In fact their response is more appropriate in the context of our culture. Sexual harassment happens often enough in the US that any woman should be careful.

But these repressed sexual attitudes creates a cycle, in my opinion ... men are taught that their sexuality is threatening and shameful - something to control - or that male sexuallity is somehow "taboo" to recognize. And does the shame of aknowleging this "social taboo" give rise to destructive sexual deviance in an individual? I wonder if the US has proportionately more rapists, pedophiles and sexual predators than other countries.

Charlatan

It has to do with the puritanical roots of America. All these year's later it is still a major part of the national psyche.

__________________
"My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars."
- Old Man Luedecke

highthief

What I don't get is the "stylized" sexuality of the US - you know, watch all the advertising that is out there where the penis is not described as a "penis" but as "a particular male organ" or where you can watch an hour long infomercial for "Girls Gone Wild" with little black dots or hearts covering asses, tits and snatch. Or the "tease" shots in FHM or various teenage boy magazines.

Just show us them titties, man.

__________________
Si vis pacem parabellum.

longbough

I agree that these are manifestations of America's puritanical roots.

And it's not that I believe there's anything wrong with all forms of "sexual deviance" - but deviation such as "pedophilia" and "rape" fantasy can be dangerous if someone crosses the line between fantasy and reality.

Consider Japan where male sexual repression has been the cultural "norm." Mangas that portray the sexual exploitation of children and schoolgirls as well as rape and sadistic sexual murder are quite prolific and popular.

Charlatan

And yet the statisistics show that Japan has far fewer instances of rape and sadistic sexual behaviour that say, the US.

__________________
"My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars."
- Old Man Luedecke

joemc91

What I don't understand is how something so unnatural, that is shooting someone, stabbing, violence in general, is so accepted in this country. But at the same time, something perfectly natural, and arguably the most natural thing, such as nudity and sex, is somehow construed as unnatural and shameful. I would much prefer my kid (if I had one) see naked women and men than some guy or gal get shot in a movie. Not to imply that I wouldn't mind a young kid seeing gratuitous sex, because that isn't appropriate for some ages, but nudity is exactly something you've never seen before.

longbough

Good observation.
In 1999 the results of a study conducted by the National Research Institute of Police Science in Tokyo was published in International Journal of Law and Psychiatry
( http://www.hawaii.edu/PCSS/online_ar...y_rape_jp.html )

Their findings linked a rapid decrease in the incidence of "sex crimes" of every type in Japan to a propotional proliferation of violent and sadistic pornography available in Japan over the past couple of decades.

"Within Japan itself, the dramatic increase in available pornography and sexually explicit materials is apparent to even a casual observer. This is concomitant with a general liberalization of restrictions on other sexual outlets as well. Also readily apparent from the information presented is that, over this period of change, sex crimes in every category, from rape to public indecency, sexual offenses from both ends of the criminal spectrum, significantly decreased in incidence.

"Most significantly, despite the wide increase in availability of pornography to children, not only was there a decrease in sex crimes with juveniles as victims but the number of juvenile offenders also decreased significantly.

"These findings are similar to, but are even more striking than, those reported with the rise of sexually explicit materials in Denmark, Sweden and West Germany. The findings from Europe were, in turn, more dramatic than those reported for the United States."

"Despite the absence of evidence, the myth persists that an abundance of sexual explicit material invariably leads to an abundance of sexual activity and eventually rape (e.g., Liebert, Neale, & Davison, 1973). Indeed, the data we report and review suggests the opposite."

"It is certainly clear from our data and analysis that a massive increase in available pornography in Japan has been correlated with a dramatic decrease in sexual crimes and most so among youngsters as perpetrators or victims."

In addition "(Japan has) the highest percentage of arrests and convictions in reported cases of any developed nation."

Perhaps it's the repression that gives rise to the certain sexual proclivities - which can, in turn, be diffused by providing socially acceptable forms of release (e.g. access to pornography and/or legalized prostitution).
I agree. I think that the glorification of violence in movies and television has escalated to a perverse degree - especially in proportion to the degree of sexual repression we continue to enforce.

hrandani

I think that soldiers and whores are the two oldest professions. I don't see the point in debating which came first, but to call violence unnatural is a new form of ignorance that I wasn't previously accustomed to viewing.

Chimps and Gorillas both have wars, that is, targeted destruction of other chimp groups (usually to steal their women or food) in the case of the Gorilla, just the male leader and any offspring. So that's two out of the three closest relatives to Man that both engage in war. Bonobos, the third, are also intriguing with their comical sexual antics and prolific sexual bonding, have not been observed to engage in war.

If I have children, they will see both. Preferably as objectively as possible, but children are more than capable of providing their own romantization of either subject.

longbough

I wouldn't say that violence is unnatural - but the romanticization of explicit violence as entertainment is - IMO - e.g. movies that glamorize gang activity with slowmotion mutilation depicted in near pornographic detail. I'm not against all action films or exposure to violence in a realistic way. - but some films out there promote some bizarre myths about violence that propagate ridiculous misconceptions.

joemc91

Yeah, I didn't really mean to imply that war isn't a natural thing, hell, there has never been a time of universal peace anywhere. I meant the kind of violence you see in the movies and on tv. Close ups of exit wounds being formed and the looks on people's faces as they are stabbed. Even in the past when even more people were engaged in war, violence of this type was not seen by every man, woman, and child as it is now. That's not to say it has not been romanticized as entertainment. It always has! Consider the Illiad and the Odessy or many of the other novels and epics that have been told throughout all cultures. They all have some way to do with war. However, to see in this fine detail the effects of battle and violence is something new. Maybe it will do good to awaken people to the fact that war is not all glory and victory. In all honesty, I don't mind the gratuitous violence too much, but I do mind that sex and nudity is considered "wrong". But thanks for calling me ignorant, I appreciate it, really, I do.

hrandani

I never called you ignorant, you need to lighten up.

To say that violence is unnatural is ignorant.

There are a great many things of which I am ignorant, and it doesn't bother me. Live and learn.

And to say that violence was never seen in explicit detail by every man, woman and child?

What? What about villages, towns and cities even in this century - even today - that were burned, raped, and pillaged, gunned down and blown up?

City of God and Lord of War are show two good examples of what I'm thinking about. Perhaps the third world doesn't exist in your mental image of life on earth?