Is the girl interested or not...
 

So I've been hanging out a few times with this girl that seems to show alot of interest: aka agrees to go out when I ask, isn't in a hurry to leave, touches me now and then, and is generally very nice to me.

What I don't get is why everytime I broach more serious subjects such as past relationships or what kind of guys she's interested in, she responds with a joke then changes the subject, and doesn't ask me the same thing back. She did say she's never had a bf before, b/c her standards are very high.

I know reading this sounds like she's not interested, but I know that's not true as she shows alot of interest.

she is a college freshman. I am a college senior.

My friend says freshman are unstable. He says she is confused and doesn't know what she wants in a guy. Also, she probably doesn't know what to do, even if she is interested.

His opinion is that its going to be *very* hard, and likely for even a shot at a relationship this will have to go into next spring, not before this winter...

his opinion is also that since she is the perfectionist type (valedictorian, perfect SAT's) that she is very picky and will likely wait a long time to see if I am 'perfect', instead of trying a relationship first/faster..

Any advice on how to start a relationship with her, preferably sooner, without scaring her off?

How many times have you gone out with her? and what are you defining a relationship as. Relationships happen over time.. you can't just say I want a relationship with you -- and expect it to magically happen.

It's a pretty big generalization of your friend to say that freshmen are unstable, more than likely, for most it's their first time living away from home and some handle it better than others. I'm almost 41 years old, and men still confuse me, and on any given day, I'm not sure I know what I want in a guy... it's not something that all women are born knowing because it can change regularly.

Go with what you feel - ask her out - spend time with her - and form your own opinions..

Do what you want to do...

Why in holly hell are you asking her abot BFs and relationships for? Avoid these subjects like the plague or run the risk of becomming her therapist or worse being associated with all the bad things that happened before. Remember, any past relationship/BF is one that went wrong.

If you want her values ask about them directly.

What is romance, what is a perfect evening, what's the best thing a guy can do for her, etc.

Perhaps she is actually not sure. In that case she would be looking for someone to open things up for her (pun intended), to charm her. If you think the first guy who'll get in her pants is going to be perfect think again. It's probably gona be some big asshole who will get her into bed within a few days and never call her again. Thats what happens to virgin college girls.

Now about your relationship with her so far.

She touches you, but does she move her body closer? Do you touch her? How does she respond when you close the distance? Have you had any - we should kiss right now - moments?

You are looking for intimacy here. If you havent had any intimate moments yet. Are you paying for these outings? If you are, I think you are "just a friend".

The best way to find out, is to make a bloody move.

She's interested, she's just nervous. She's never had a relationship before and she doesn't know how these things work. She probably secretly suspects there's something wrong with her, that she hasn't had a relationship before now.

Make a move. Worst that happens, she doesn't reciprocate. If you're pretty sure she's into you, then all that's left is overcoming her anxiety.

Umm, we've hung out in group events one or two times, as part of this club we're both in. We've gone out once formally when I invited her to a show on campus, a few times just informally grabbing dinner after class (I hope these count too!).
Yesterday night I just randomly asked her to go grab a [non-alcohlic] drink, and she agreed and we had a good fun talk for an hour or so then I cut it short :)

Thanks! I will try to keep hanging out, trying my hardest (cuz my friend says if I don't, this one might slip away too)...


Oh. Good thing she didn't have any past things to talk about then, lol. I had assumed asking about the past was the de-facto way of hinting: 'I am interested enough in you to consider a relationship with you'.

Great points! However, does this make it look like I'm trying too hard, or could I be coming on too thick asking such things so directly?

I don't mean to sound fake, and I'm not really, but I've read online that the best approach is "cocky+funny", and this is what I tried at first. My friend told me I came across as a total asshole and girls shouldn't be treated this way, so I did a 180 degree turn around on my "approach" and became a total nice guy. This has worked so far only because she has just as much interest, I think..

And I certainly hope its not some asshole that gets in for a few days then gets out. If that is really the case for college, that's quite sad (I wouldn't know too much about this area, hehe).

Yes, when we sat watching the show on campus, she had her body leaning towards me so our shoulders touched slightly inbetween.
When we walked I would try to walk a little closer (too scared to put my arms around her, I think that's overkill), and we might bump a little and she wouldn't mind, cause we'll bump a few more times walking down the road :) So I guess she responds well, hopefully this is an ok indicator.
After watching the show, we went to grab a non-alcoholic drink and talked for 1.5 hours. After walking her home, I forgot to at least hug her, which I considered only afterwards when I got home. Doh! I think at least a hug would have been opportune...

Hmm, being a total noobie, I assume an 'intimate' moment would be something like both staring into each other's eyes and feeling like kissing, or something like that. Well, I don't think I've come across one yet, but I think wouldn't preclude it if I tried...

Wait, if I *PAY* for these its NOT a date? I'm just a 'friend'?? I thought its the other way around: you pay for your date, and don't pay for your friend.

I hope your analysis is correct :) Umm, except for that part about her thinking something is wrong with herself, cuz thats just insecure (but I've been there I guess, I was a freshman too!).

Hmm ok. I'll do it sometime but only after a few more dates because I don't want to scare her away...

And what does making a move comprise? Like, putting my arms around her, or going in for a kiss? Or do you mean like, actually asking her 'hey lets start dating'???


Thanks for the help guys!

Ok time for Uncle Ustwo to help you out. Mind you uncle Ustwo is a dirty old letch.

Now you remind me of when I met the Mrs. Ustwo. Well no not really but I was a college senior and she was a freshman. The rest of your story doesn't really fit at all, but thats neither hear nor there, I'd have figured it out already.

So lets pretend she never had a bf before, that means shes very horny by this time in life, thats good. On the other hand shes also scared shitless, and feels behind the curve. All her friends have gotten laid before (at least she thinks) and here she is a fresh virgin, doesn't know what to do, doesn't know what to expect and shes friends with this college senior! Oh heavens..........

Now I am going to assume she is interested. If shes not interested its a non-issue you move on from. Always assume they are interested. Now where was I, oh yes, so this girl is interested, horny and scared. Whats next? Well first off a little sagely advice young man, don't tell her about your old flings and don't ask her about hers, its just a bad thing to do. Sure it gives you something to talk about, maybe an incite to her mind, but its not information you really want to know about, especially if you ever get serious with her. Now where was I again? Oh yea, how to make her yours in a biblical sense.

Well take this IHS (interested, horny, scared) on a classic date. Make sure there is no doubt in her mind this is a date, do dinner and a movie or some god awful cliche like that, just the two of you, no friends tagging along. So blah blah blah , eat eat eat , blah blah blah , watch watch watch (go for hand holding in watch watch watch ).

Now son, the date is over, you are alone after the movie, its time to screw up your courage and make your move, perhaps you need alcohol if you are an amateur, and I don't recommend it as some people act poorly under its influence, but what ever it takes, look her in those eyes and kiss her (keep your tongue in at first, no need to scare her even more).

This here will be the cusp, the moment where all is clear, if she is indeed an IHS she will kiss you back and then the rest is up to you, though I do recommend following the three blue balls rule, and if you need to ask what that is then do so. If she sort of pulls away in disgust or an uncomfortable look, you know the kind of look that says 'how do I tell him I am not an IHS without breaking his heart', you know she has no interest and you can chalk her up to the friends category, and be on your merry way.

Not from my exprerience. I think it shows genuine intrest in who she really is. Which you should have by the way, don't fake it. People are so used to fluff talk about nothing that big questions tend to make them perk up and think "hey this guy is really intrested in me". Try to stay possitive, you can find out her fears and dark secrets when your relationship is solid enough to handle them. Don't overwhelm her with 20 questions either, just pay attention, people give openings for a deep conversation all the time.
confident / funny.
There is debate over the meaning of confidence though. To me it's being comfortable in your own skin. Some people come off as assholes because they act like: "Look! I am better then everyone else". If you really have confidence you would not need to measure yourself up against other people. I hope that makes some sort of sense.
The problem with being a nice guy is that you are walking a thin line. Women generally don't like men who are pushovers or who will put themselves at a lower level then them. What most girls seem to really want is respect and a little bit of gallantry. The other problem with being a nice guy is that it's hard to be sexual. When you do make a move you run the risk of looking insincere - as if you are putting on a nice guy act to get in her pants. I hope you get what I mean.

Next.
I think you gota start making headway with getting closer to her. So far the signs point to the fact that she is comfortable with you but is she attracted to you? Take every oportunity you can to touch her, but don't just reach with your limbs, use your whole body. When you take her hand step closer. Instead of leaning in to wisper / hear better move your whole body towards her. When you make contact, make sure that it's sexualy charged. Hold her hand a little longer then usual. Touch her shoulder and look into her eyes. There are many oportunities for touch. For example next time you open a door for her put your hand on the small of her back and usher her in.

That's too bad, try to create those moments. The only way to do that is to put a sexual vibe into your encounter. Don't be appologetic about it. You know what you want and she knows it as well. There is no need to try to trick her or yourself into it. You want her as your girl, you want her as a lover.

You are on a date ONLY after you've made out with her. Before that you are still trying to figure out where you stand. Now this is my opinion and you don't have to agree with me but why would you give something to someone? You give because you either (a) wan't something in return or (b) reward. If you go with (a), arn't you pretty much trying to buy her out? To me, that seems low and dishonest. You can justify it by saying that it's an attempt to be nice, but I think thats pretty weak as well, there are better ways to show you are a nice guy.

A kiss (not a peck). Make it on your next date. I think she has already decided if she wants you or not, my advice is to find out now. Don't ask, reach out and kiss her.

Best of luck to you.

From my experiences, Mantus is giving you excellent advice.

One thing I would pass to you, though, is that I don't as a general rule take budding dates to movies. I hate the whole concept basically because you don't get a chance to talk to one another. After you've known each other, then it's fun to go out after dinner or whatnot and catch a flick, but beforehand when you're still feeling each other out (figureatively, literally, whatever) a chat by a moonlit beach or on a restuarant patio is 100% going to net better results (if you can carry a conversation, which you both can right?)

Thanks for the interesting advice, UsTwo. I've never considered it from that perspective, that she is IHS: Interested, Horny, Scared.

The rest of your 'method' sounds fine except the smooch part. If they are more conservative they might still have interest but not be open to even a peck??? I dunno

Yeah, that sounds like a good, solid rationale. Good point about the 20 questions, then it DOES make it seem like you're trying waaaay too hard.


I see your point. It is indeed a hard balance to make, but I am getting better at it. Wobbling between teh extremes was an experience that is helping me move towards the center.

Thanks for this great advice in general. For me, I have an update which I will write after this, below.

I see your perspective, and I agree. However, some girls are *raised* with the culture that the guy pays, ALWAYS, no matter what on dates. And, that doesn't make the girl a spoiled brat, its just their personal preference.


Mantus, thanks for the great advice. Here is my overall update:

So tonight, after a casual dinner (ie at the school cafetaria), I actually asked if she wanted to watch a movie, whether it be in theatres or in her room (on the computer). I made a point of being quick: I said "yes or no" and she said "yes".

So, I'm in her room and we hung out a bit listening to music then watched a movie. She had arranged her bed and then invited me on the bed with her to sit and watch. I made a move during this movie to put my arm around her (with a lame pick-up line), and she kind of shyed away. So we watched another movie (first one was bad, this one is romantic), and 2/3 through this movie I put my arm around her again, and this time she agreed.

So basically after that it seemed to be very clear, because she leaned on my body and we held hands.


Ok, here's where I think I majorly fucked up. I asked her to walk me to the building entrance with the intention of kissing her there (b/c her roommate was there and I didn't want to do it in the room). So as we hit the entrance there's like 3 guys standing outside. I felt awkward and didn't have the guts to kiss her myself. So I *asked* for a hug, and instead discussed plans for a next date... I think she might have been waiting for the kiss. She had broken out gum in the 2nd movie... Is not kissing and instead hugging a MAJOR mistake?

Thanks guys!

yeah, it sounds like you're fucking up.
but she's into you, evidently, so quit worrying about it before you drive yourself and her nutz.

UPDATE:

So we grabbed dinner and then went on a walk tonight.

I was trying to initiate more physical contact such as having my arm around her or holding hands; she didn't distance from them but she was not actively keeping them going either.

So after some casual talk I asked her how she felt the other night when we were holding hands. She said "she felt like it was going too fast." Then she said "I don't think I'm ready to have a boyfriend now." To which I said "whoa, I'm not talking about that, I just meant casual dating."

Then I asked "do you see me as more than a friend" and she said "I don't know. I don't really know."

Then I said initially I thought of her as just a friend until I got all these interest signals from her, which was why I hung out with her more. Then I asked her "Why did you give all those signals." And she said "I don't know."

Since we are both in the same club, she asked me "So will it be awkward now in the club meetings."
To which I said "No, why should it be. We haven't done anything at all, I was just asking you because I wanted to know." And she said "Oh ok, yeah that's right."

I think freshmen ARE really confused.

How should I proceed. I think it's going to be really hard...

EDIT: oh yeah, she also told me her mom told her she shouldn't get a boyfriend. but everyone's parents say that..

wow. no offense (because I'm pretty sure I know something of what you're feeling) but there's way too much analysis and testing going on here (are you an engineer?). seriously, just do it. just going with the gut and not worrying about your self-consciousness will let you get answers much faster than asking us. good luck

yes, i am an engineer. so is she.

my gut also tells me i might have messed this up and now its gonna be awkward. i hope not.

i guess i stumped u guys. ok i'll go with my gut. wish me luck.

Dude, you gotta put put your Nikes on and just "do it". Sometime in the first three or four meetings. You waited to long. That magical moment was gone. You failed to sweep her off her feet inside that magical mental time frame all women have.

Good luck.

I talk too much, I have a gut feeling I am missing something here, so I won't post the advice

well i appreciate whatever opinions you have. now u've piqued my curiosity..

Okay, dude. I get the idea (and don't take this personally, please) that you don't have a lot of experience in the ways of women. Fortunately for you, your buddy Mars is here to help you out. First, a bit of insight into what's going through her head.

She is confused, terribly confused. She doesn't have a boyfriend and she's a college freshman. This means a lot of things. First is that she's afraid. She wants to do well in school and be successful and she's probably afraid that a boyfriend might mess that up. She doesn't see how the two could mesh. She's probably also wondering what's wrong with her, because she's never been with a guy before and most or all of her friends probably have. Why don't more guys go for her? As part of that, she's probably also afraid of using you; she doesn't want to start dating you just because you're available. She's afraid that because she wants to have a relationship she may latch on to you because you're making yourself available, which is the wrong reason. And she may have parental or religious or social deterrence from dating. It's quite possible that someone has instilled the idea in her that having a boyfriend is wrong and would probably mess up her life right now. These are all possibilities, I can't guarantee that she has every one of these things going through her head, but I'm pretty sure at least some of them are there.

And now you've made it worse. This is why I suspect you don't have a lot of experience yourself; in asking her the questions you did you raised two issues. The first is that you revealed your own insecurity, which just makes her all the more unsure. You also put her on the spot, which left her feeling embarassed and possibly hurt and attacked. You just wanted to find out, but by doing it the way you did you've just alienated her. Oh and by asking about signals like that you've probably also got her worried about what other signals she might be sending out to you or other guys unawares, since it sounds like she wasn't intentionally leading you on. Major fuck up. Sorry.

So, how do you fix this? You might not be able to. It might have been doomed from the start; it's entirely possible that she was never interested in a relationship with you to begin with. Maybe she never even considered the possibilty until you started showing interest and now she doesn't quite know what to think. She doesn't know what she wants - her heart is telling her in there somewhere, but she's got all this other crap going through her head and drowning it out. She will find that voice eventually and figure this out and it's your job to help her in that respect. You cannot ask her directly. In fact, let me repeat that for emphasis. DO NOT under ANY circumstances ask her what she wants, if she's interested in you or if she wants to date. She doesn't have an answer to these questions and asking just puts her on the spot again.

My advice to you is just to back off and be low key about the whole affair. You need to show her that you're for real, that you really think she's the best thing to happen to you since you first discovered masturbation and that you want to be with her. Talk to her as often as possible. Ask her how her day went whenever you see her and how she's feeling and really listen to what she tells you. Show concern, ask questions and provide empathy. Communicate!

Don't try to hurry things along. You can take her on dates and such, maybe even hold her hand. I leave that up to your discretion. She'll let you know if it's okay or not. Don't let the romantic aspect slip completely into the background; you still want that I assume, so don't get in her face with it, but don't let her forget either. Take her out to dinner and movies, take her to romantic places. Don't try to kiss her just yet; that's putting her on the spot again. She already told you things are moving too fast for her, so just be patient.

This one is going to take a bit of time and a lot of effort on your part. Whether or not she's worth it is a judgement for you to make. Pay attention to what she tells you, both in words and actions. I promise you that as you proceed she will make things clear.

If it helps, try approaching it from this angle. What you want right now is not a relationship with her. What you want is to know if that's possible. You said you're an engineer, so use your engineering background if that will help you approach this with confidence. Look at all of this as a big feasibility test; you're trying to figure out whether the grounds here are suitable to build a relationship on. It's going to take time for things to stabilize a bit before you'll know the answer, but you need to keep an eye on the situation and constantly change the nature of your testing to suit the changing parameters as they arise.

And a final repetition for emphasis; be confident! Everything you do with this girl is just testing the waters. Rejection is an outcome, it's not a favourable one but it is an outcome which is what you're after. If you're unsure you're only going to confuse her more. Confidence, as always in relationships, is key.

Good luck.

Martian, thank you for the wonderful reply. As I read it, alot of it clicked and made sense, and it has given me a much clearer picture of what I need to do.

Also, thanks for being honest and telling me where I went wrong.


I do have a question, I thought she wanted things slow meant that I should call her less frequently or talk less (ie on IM). Cuz, weirdly since that day she hasn't been on AIM at all I think, or in invisible mode or something.

At this stage where I just f*cked up and she's so confused, does it make sense to call her everyday? Or does she just want some space? Or is afraid of me now?

Also, my friend suggested I ask her to go study together? Because that gives us time together, but satisfying her concerns of getting good grades.

Your right about the someone instilling boyfriend == bad grades. Her mom told her not to get a BF and to concentrate on her studies. There are no religious barriers, she is agnostic/atheist.


Alot of what you said made sense. I really did put her on the spot, the signals question was *horrible*. Erg, I feel like a doufus/douchebag. This was the first girl to really, *really*, show a lot of interest in me. Don't mean to sound cocky, but I'm pretty sure of that.


Thanks buddy.

Right, daily would be a bit much. When I said as often as possible, I assumed you were both suffering from hectic college schedules, which granted was unwarranted. I'd say aim for 3-4 times per week, although that's just a general figure. If you get the sense that she's not comfortable with it, then back off a bit.

As to what she meant when she said she wanted to take things slow.. well, that was another way of her saying she doesn't know what she wants. You do want to give her breathing room, but take things slow on the romantic front. If you're not visible, she's not thinking about you and that doesn't get you anywhere. If you want to know where you stand, or even if you want her to know where you stand, you have to keep yourself in her head and the only sure way to do that is through communication. Just don't get too pushy. I'll be honest, you're walking a fine line here. You back off too much, she'll just put the romantic aspect out of her head. It's not comfortable for to think about it right now and given the opportunity, she won't. Which is fine, except that means you become a friend and that's not the goal here. You can't let her forget that you want to have more with her, but you can't make her feel pressured - do that and she'll bolt. That's what I mean when I say be low-key; be romantic, but don't try to pressure her. Make it about her and let her take her time with this.

I'll be brutally honest here - you fucked up large and I don't even know if it's fixable. That all depends on her. See, you've betrayed her trust; you made her very uncomfortable and she's probably hurt right now. She may not even realize it, but I would bet dollars to pesos that she is. You're best chance is to give her some air (not precisely the same thing as giving her space; I'll get to that momentarily) and let things develop.

I do like the study date, but try it this way; invite her to meet at the library to study together. Agree on a time and place and meet her there. Make sure you're about five minutes late - you want her to get there first. And when you do show up, bring two things with you : a coffee for her (or a tea or hot chocolate or whatever she likes) and some flowers. Whatever you can afford is fine, it doesn't have to be three dozen roses. This is one of those situations where it really is the thought that counts. Try for red roses if you can get them, or even just a single one. They're cheesy, but remember that she has almost no experience in this area and you want to send a clear signal. When you get there, find her and give her the rose first. Let her thank you, then give her the coffee. Don't mention anything else. Don't try to make another date. Just do that and then do your studying together.

The coffee is consideration - you're showing her that you pay attention to what she likes and are kind enough to take that into acount (make sure you bring one for yourself too, by the way, so it's not quite so aggresive). The rose keeps romance on her mind. You're not pushing her, but you're not letting her forget either. That's the sort of presence you're shooting for. At the end of the night, don't try to kiss her or make any moves. You can walk her home if it's late, but just to her front door; don't go in unless she invites you and don't try for any sort of physical intimacy. She might hug you, she might not. Hopefully she will, but if she doesn't just say goodnight and leave it at that.

Now a quick aside, because I said I'd get back to it. What I mean when I say you want to give her air is that you want to give her the freedom to make up her mind without going away. Giving her space is going away; it's letting her put that out of her head. Giving her air on the other hand is saying 'I'm here and I'll be here no matter what you decide or how long you take.' It's being there for her without being aggressive. It's showing her you care without asking for more - indeed, without asking for anything.

Again, good luck. All the best and I really, truly hope this works out for you. But try not to build your hopes up too much, eh? She turns you down, well, there's plenty of other girls out there and this experience will help you in learning how to deal with them in the future. If you fixate, I guarantee she won't want anything to do with you; even if you don't breathe a word to her, she'll know.

At this moment if you came up to some random hottie on the street you would have ths ame chance at landing a relationship as you would with this gril. Walk up to 30 hotties and a week later you got yourself a chick who isn't all that confused about making out with you. Now I know this is probably not an option for you but it's a good fact to keep at the back of your mind for perspective.

I agree with Martin's assesment of the situation but I totaly disagree with his solutions.

It's a bad idea. If you wan't to become her emotional tampon go ahead but I'll bet you $50 that if you take this route you will be hearing about some dirty bastard who charmed her, slept with her, left her high and dry, and then you'll hear about how she wan't him back...dont become her pet.

Don't spend a cent on her. No dates. Don't even buy her coffee. The two of you are not an item. You can't buy someone's heart. Dates, holding hands, and all those other symbols of a realationship only apply when you ARE in a relationship.

Don't go out of your way to please her. Take her of the pedestal. It's self defeating. This means learning to say: no. If you grovel before someone they will never respect you and how can they be attracted to someone they don't respect?

Get your head out of the sand and look around for other women. This will keeps your head clear of tunnel vision and make her realize that your are someone that can be lost. Thus giving you value.

I think your problem here is that there is no spark, no chemestry, in this relationship. Unless you get the fire burning you will never get anywhere with her. You've established that you are a good and kind person. You guys clearly get allong, there is not need to re-enforce that any further.

Here is the basic theory.
- A "date" or "dating" are social labels for behaviour. The label itself does very little in enhancing comfort and chemestry that are necissary for a healthy relationship.
- It is therefore important to focus on building chemestry and worrying about your relationship labels later.
- Sometimes people make the mistake of trying to obtain labels intead of working on building attraction and comfort. As a result they misslead themselves into believing that they are at a certain realationship state, when in fact they are nowhere. Say a couple goes out to dinner, movies, hangs out and holds hands; even goes on a trip together. All these actions should label them as a couple who are sexually active. Yet there could be be zero chemestry in such a relationship and any attempts to move forward sexualy will be shot down.
- So the moral of the story is that you can't wine, dine or buy someone's heart. Dates and gifts are a great way to re-enforce what you already have but they won't create chemestry.

Looking at your last outing. You wen't on a date. You probably paid for her meal. You put your arm around her. You tried to have a "talk" with her. I am sure you see the pattern by now.

So what should you do? Well like I said, you need comfort (rapport, trust or whatever you wisht to call it) and you need chemestry (sexual attraction). That's how relationships start. From here you can work into intimacy, passion and loyalty or whatever you relationship framework is but all relationships start at a very basic level. If you don't have chemestry then you can never have a real relationship. Why do girls go on dates even though they don't feel that way about you? Well, free food, attention, hope that you might pull of a miracle.

This girl is already comfortable around you. So work on chemestry. This is simply flirting. Get sex into the equation. If she isn't responcive, don't keep knocking your head against a wall, move on. So I would advise you to keep this girl as a side project because investing all your energy into her has heartbreak and wasted college years writen all over it.

Now you know why I was hesitant to respond. :D

Cheers.

Hi Martian,

Thanks again for taking the time to write such a thoughtful response.

Again, alot of what you're saying resonates with me; it makes alot of sense to do it that way.

The slower, but still-there but not in-her-face method you suggest is definitely something I'm going to run with; it is very different from Mantus' approach but I think it is the right one in this situation given the girl, and me.

I think alot of what Mantus suggests works on girls who are "well-established" and experienced, but for this girl, she's innocent and kind-hearted, and I don't think she's conciously or subconciously looking for an 'emotional tampon.' Don't get me wrong, I think this sort of stuff happens alot, but I don't think it is the case for this girl.

I like the coffee+rose idea, that is very well thought out; does it scare you guys that this is waay too romantic for me; ie I've never brought flowers to a girl, let alone on a *study* date...

The air vs space thing also makes sense. Wow, with this one fuck-up I made I'm learning alot, especially with your help!!

I have an update, which I will post below after I respond to Mantus.

Thanks again,
Best,
Match

Hi Mantus,

Thanks for taking time to write your thoughtful reply as well.

I agree generally with alot of what you are saying: don't put her on the pedestal, don't need to fall over and pay for *everything* (like a push-over), and don't become her 'emotional tampon'. I've read that this 'friends zone' with girls happens alot. And this is what your warning of.

However, like I said above, I don't really think this girl is the type conciously or subconciously looking for an 'emotional tampon'. One of the 'signals' I got before was quite, umm, kinky.

I also agree with the danger of 'tunnel-vision'; however, I think that if she shows so much interest in me, it would only be logical and fair of me to respond back with just as much, if not more. Well, I haven't given the update yet, which I will below.

I also find that the sexual chemistry idea that you talk about makes alot of sense. There definitely needs to be that chemistry there, not just friendship and making casual banter. And I think Martian also alluded to this chemistry, such as buying the roses to spark more than just friendship.

Although, right now I don't want to come off too strong, after such a major fuck-up. Once I slowly rebuild the relationship to a high-trust level, I think I can afford to be more 'sexually flirty', but I think doing that now would just alienate her more, like Martian said: I'm walking a very fine line.


Thanks for your help!
Best,
Match

I'm really glad that you guys can take some time out of your lives to help a fellow brother out. You don't know how much comfort, and guidance, your advice is giving me now. For that I'm very grateful. (ok dont want to get too mushy...)


UPDATE:

So tonight I had a late dinner, and called her up and asked if she wanted to keep me company as I ate. I said 'yes or no' and she agreed :)

So it *is* getting close to finals and she was studying, yet she agreed to take time out on a Tuesday night. Yay.

So we had a great conversation as I ate, I mean, it wasn't anything tremendously deep (I don't want to fuck up again, as I'm *horrible* at deep conversations with girls). But it was fun and light, and not awkward at all. And she wasn't in any rush to leave, or anything.

Soooooo, I think it's slowly being fixed :) Of course, I have to keep trying harder, but she's given me a 2nd chance and hopefully it will work out.

Definitely the ideas that both you guys have suggested will come in handy; don't put her *sooo* high that I am 'nothing', and don't get too pushy but definitely make sure I'm still there romantically. I'll try the coffee+rose idea when I feel the time is ripe; right now is too early I think, just after I fucked up with that deep question stuff.

Oh, she can't take alot of caffeine at all. Even tea would give her jitters... I guess its umm, a hot chocolate then :)


Thanks!
Match

When I read this, I thought: "Damn he's lost it." I think your mistake here has been to not give her a clear signal of interest early enough. Like you said, you did not really invite her clearly on a date. You either "informally grabbed diner" or "randomly asked". You should have shown more determination, I think. Make it clear that you see her as more than friend material.

If I was a girl, and some guy just "randomly" invited me, I don't know if I could see him as more than friend material. I'd want to go out with a confident and determined man. Hence, the confusion she showed. Plus keep in mind Girls are 1000 times more perceptive when it comes to dating. So my guess is:

1) She sensed your interest
2) but you didn't show your intentions clearly

That comes out as non assertive enough.

Sometimes it's good to put yourself in the girl's shoes too.

I hope it's not too awkward to see her in the club. Anyways, there are plenty of girls out there. Good luck.

Hi IBlade,

Hmm. You guys all seem to advocate the straight-up, no 'lets-be-friends' stuff, and just date right off the bat.

However, two of my good friends have suggested the other route (true, alot of people aparently get stuck in friends zone with this): be really good friends, and don't care for one minute if it turns out romantic or not, but just have fun and hang out alot. Eventually you will hang out so much that she figures: "Hmmm... he might as well be my bf. So ok, he's my bf now". That's how one of my friends got his gf.

Plus, although I majorly fucked up, my fuck-up was an attempt to reach out and be clear what my intentions are. I see your point that my intentions were not clear enough at the onset, and so when I approached her about it she was confused.. perhaps.

But now that we are on the way to fixing it, and after my fuck-up she definitely knows my intentions, so I think the ball is in her court.. I'll just keep continuing to initiate hang-outs ('dates')...

I think this is the way I'm going to go, but of course keeping the chemistry and romantic touches going, as you, Mantus, and Martian suggest.


Thanks!

I am against you meeting her casually. Again, you are not assertive enough. My point would be to retreat for some time (1/2 weeks maybe more), but not to ignore her. Just be more distant. Go out with other girls. Tell her about it. She will then realize that she misses you (or not) and that is when you should make a clear move. Invite her to dinner (but don't pay!).

You've hit the nail on the head there. Normally my advice isn't so far different from what Mantus is suggesting; I do not and will not advocate playing games. However, due to this girl's and your own relative inexperience, I'm suggesting a slightly different approach. It basically comes down to knowing what you want and going after it. If you're willing to do that, I'll give you all the pointers in the world on the approach to take.

I'm not infallible. Far from it. But I've had a fair bit of experience in the field so to speak, with a lot of failures and a fair number of successes to my name as well (including the big one, the girl who I will be marrying when the time is right). I will do my best to help out those who could benefit from the experience I've gained (and the mistakes I've made). I can't guarantee I won't steer you wrong, but ultimately it's up to you to take all of the advice offered and figure out what best suits your situation.

It's not a question of being well thought out so much as it is knowing how to give a girl what she wants. If I'm honest with you, I literally came up with that idea as I read your post. It's not a difficult thing to do and once you learn how to think this way you'll be more than capable of doing it on your own. If I'm reading the situation right, what she wants is to not be confused, so I'm doing my best to help you figure out how to give her that. As for the romance, you don't get anywhere by beating around the bush. You have to be direct if you want to woo her. Again, confidence is key.

We learn a lot more from failure than we do from success. And the TFP is all about helping each other, ultimately. Just be glad that it looks like she's giving you a second chance.

Re: the update, you did good. Deep conversation isn't something you should be looking for right now. She needs to feel comfortable with you again and tonight looks like it went a long way towards showing her that she can. Just be wary, now. You don't want to just be friends and you don't want her to think that's what you're after. It's hard to say without having been there but it sounds like you did a good job of making your intentions clear without being overbearing about it; good stuff.

Feel free to walk her home, like I said, but don't try to start anything. You do not want to put her on the spot. Remember, this is all new and very confusing to her and you need to let her figure things out on her own.

I don't really like the advice your friends gave you, because if you take the 'let's be friends' approach, that's all you'll be. Don't let the relationship aspect go by the wayside. And remember that you should never get too wrapped up in a girl that you can't consider not dating her. You don't want to set yourself up for heartbreak if it doesn't work out. Things are way too up in the air right now for you to commit. After that first kiss when you're sure she's yours, then you can go ahead and fall for her, but don't let yourself just yet.

Hi iblade,

I see what you mean. But, given her seemingly high interest level in me, I just don't want to risk alienating her by playing games such as making her miss me... I mean, that's natural enough if it happens.. hmm. I'll give it some thought. Thanks! :)

Regarding the don't pay for dinner thing; yep, I won't. I'm thinking, though, if its a nice big formal date where we make plans days in advance, I should probably pay for it...

Hi Martian,

Heh, I did walk her home tonight after dinner. When I reached for the building door to keep it open, she thought I was 'reaching out for a high-5 or something and we had a high-5 / 1 second hand hold. Then we laughed it off. I hope that's a good sign :)


I like your warning. Yes, saying things the way I said them, I guess I *AM* setting myself up for a high fall if she turns out to be "just a friend" or if things don't work out.

I think she's set (ie ready and stable enough) for small hints of romance (ie roses), but not like all-out deep questioning like my major fuck-up before. So... I think I will try this way. But this is definitely a take-it-slow-girl, so I think I will only start on this romancing-hint stuff next semester after winter break.


Thanks :)

Okay, here's how I'm reading this.

That wasn't a high five. Unless the door handle was at a height of six feet there's no way she thought you were high fiving her. She thought you were reaching out to take her hand.

From there, we get two things : first is that she reached out too, so she wanted to hold your hand. The second is that when you put your arm forward it was the first thing that leapt into her mind. So she was already thinking about it. You didn't know quite how to react, because she caught you off-guard and suddenly it got awkward and you both ended up sharing a sort of nervous, embarrassed kind of laugh. So that's okay. It wasn't really a mistake so much as just inexperience again; all in all, you did pretty well with that.

So here's what you do; next time, be ready for it. In fact, take her hand. Reach out and hold her hand. Do not try to force anything on her, but do reciprocate when she gives you a signal like this.


I don't know when 'after winter break' is, but I'm guessing it's too far away, especially in light of this new evidence. Dude, there's slow and then there's not moving. You want to be moving and she gave you a pretty forthright sign last night that she wants you to be moving too.

You still can't rush headlong into this. You can't approach her and say 'you held my hand now lets have sex!'. But you can move on things.

My advice is this: Set up that study date ASAP. Do it as planned, but at the end of the night look for an opportunity to kiss her. Remember that when doing that it's much easier to progress through different levels of physical intimacy than jump to one, especially one you've never been at (and I have no idea if you've ever kissed a girl before, so bear with me if you have). Start by deliberately taking her hand. Both of her hands, actually, because then she has to look at you. When that's comfortable but before it gets awkward, move closer and put your arms around her. Then, and again do this slowly, lean in gently and kiss her. Pointers in case you've never done it before are close your eyes, tilt your head so you don't bump noses, lips should be slightly parted (but no tongue) and take it slow.

Pay very close attention to hery body language while doing this. You need to make sure she's giving you the okay the whole way through. If she shows any signs of discomfort or awkwardness you may need to back off, although I leave that to your discretion.

If she lets you kiss her, don't start going all serious. And if she starts freaking out after the fact (which is possible; remember she's confused as all hell right now), don't let her draw you into some sort of what are we doing/where is this going type of conversation. Just tell her that you think she's beautiful and wanted to kiss her. Tell her that it's okay if she wants to take her time to figure things out, because you're willing to wait for her. Again, give her air. Don't start pushing. In fact, a good rule here would be don't ask questions at all. Let her have a bit of a freak out, don't get defensive, stay calm and be reassuring. Tell her it's okay if she's not really sure about all of this. Let her know that this is what you want and you're willing to wait for her to make her decision.

If she doesn't let you kiss her, well, don't panic. So long as you read the signs well enough to not actually try to kiss her when she doesn't want you to, you should be okay. Even if you do try to kiss her it's not the end of the world, although it will complicate things a bit more.

And a final note, don't overreact to perceived signs. The ones you're looking for should be fairly obvious; if you have to ask if that was her trying to give you a signal, it probably wasn't. And.. oh, what's that word? Oh, yeah! Confidence!

EDIT - Oh and on the dinner issue raised above; for informal outings you're not obligated to pay. But if it's a date, I'd say absolutely you want to pay. You also want to drive or pay for the cab. Remember, she doesn't have a lot of practical experience in the dating world, which means there's not much room for subtltety. If you're taking her on a date you want it to scream 'THIS IS A DATE!' at every opportunity.

Hi Martian,

Wow. Thanks again for taking the time to write such a great thoughtful advice.

Yeah, regarding the high-5 hand thing. It's weird. Before when I had my arm around her and holding her hand on her bed, she liked it, but later said it was 'too fast'. So then I backed off, and yesterday totally did nothing physical and down the road we'd still bump once or twice, or we were playing around while walking and I was playfully blocking her and she pushed me from behind. Then the high-5 thing. I think now *I'm* confused :)


After winter break would be mid-January. I think you're right about too-slow... however I am not sure how much it is wise to 'speed' it up since finals are coming in mid-December, and as a freshman who recently only aced highschool, she's looking for those top grades (but she tells me she has B's this semester, so finals are extra important for her to make or break the A's).

I really like the study date idea. But, would it make her very awkward to receive flowers in front of the library? I mean, maybe if I picked her up outside her dorm and I gave her flowers at the dorm. But outside the library, there's just a bunch of students loitering and relaxing, and then to give her flowers at that place.. heck I think I'd feel weird myself. Perhaps I'm not romantic at all.

You're right, I haven't kissed a girl like that before. I did once while drunk but that doesn't count, especially since the girl did all the work. Thanks for the pointers on kissing, and believe me, they are *very* helpful.

So you said read her body language. I can easily tell its bad if she leans away, or her face scrunches, or her face gives a weird look, but what if she just stands there kind of statue like and paralyzed, like, not moving. Or what if she raises her eyebrows in surprise, but the rest of her face is not in "disgusted" mode? Well, I'll just have to use my discretion like you said.

Thanks again! I really appreciate your help.

Right, let me clarify that too fast bit for you again.

Holding hands and putting your arm around her wasn't too fast; it was confronting her that she wasn't ready for. You asked her how she felt and she didn't know how she felt and that's what put her off and led to her rather rash statement that she's not ready for a boyfriend.

I'm pretty sure I know what she wants at this point. It looks to me that she does want to be with you. That's the good news. The bad news is I'm still not sure she knows it and even if she does she's not sure if it's wise or even possible. She might even feel a bit guilty for liking you, since her mother told her she shouldn't have a boyfriend.

So, yeah, she did want to hold your hand last night. It wasn't that part that was too fast for her. And this is why I'm saying you're able to proceed a little more quickly now - a big part of the reason I advised so much caution to begin with is because I wasn't even sure if she wanted anything to do with you, if I'm honest about it. I didn't want you to push her too hard and I didn't want to get your hopes up too much either. Now it looks like she does want you, but that doesn't mean you're guaranteed. I still advise against letting yourself get too wrapped up in her; save that for the end.

In terms of giving her the flower - well, you know her. I don't. I only have a couple of snippets given to me by you and while that gives me enough to get a basic idea as to what's going through her head, I have no clue what her personality is like. Would she be more comfortable receiving something like that in private or would she be okay with the whole PDA deal? (PDA = Public Display of Affection) Are you comfortable giving her flowers in public? If you'd be a nervous wreck giving her the flowers in front of the library, that doesn't do you a whole heck of a lot of good. So if that's the case, then yeah, by all means do it somewhere a little less crowded. Just don't use getting her alone as an excuse not to do it, is all. It's a bit like that other night when you wanted to kiss her. You waited and waited because you wanted to be alone and then you lost your chance. Actually, while I'm on that subject, her chewing gum may or may not have been a sign that she wanted to be kissed, depending on her character; does she chew gum regularly? Was the gum in sight or did she have to get it out of a purse or drawer? Is chewing gum during a movie something that you think she'd do without really thinking about it?

The bottom line is this; you know her, you know her situation, you know her schedule and you know yourself. I have only what you choose to give me. I can take things apart and put them together and analyze and give you advice endlessly, but I cannot tell you precisely what to do in any given situation because I do not have all the facts. The only person present does is you. I advise against waiting too long to make a move, but if you get the sense that you'll just be adding unwanted stress to her life at a very stressful time for her than that might outweigh the reasons I gave for moving a little faster. I don't know. The final judgement on all of this is yours. Just do yourself a favour and don't make excuses; it's easy to keep making excuses not to do something when it's hard or intimidating, but all that ultimately comes of that is you never get what you want. Just bear that in mind.

Hi Martian,

Your analysis on the holding hands vs confronting == too fast makes alot of sense. I didnt think about it that way! Hmm, I need to work on my analysis haha.

I see what you mean. I think you and the other guys have given me enough great advice to really let me start applying my own perspective and judgement, and analysis to things.

And I see your point about the moving faster thing. That really *is* important. Thanks for keeping me on my toes on that one.

I asked my good friend and he said that confronting her again, like I did last time, is a good thing. I just gotta do it smooth this time, no hiccups and awkward silences. And when she says "I don't know", I need to probe more into her reply, not just bounce off and fire more questions. And, he says that I should feel for a right, comfortable time to ask/launch into this deeper conversation; it could be next time we hang out, or in a week; I just gotta feel the right time out myself.


This is just FYI if you were curious; the gum was in the drawer, and she pulled it out during the movie :) I don't know if she chews gum alot, but I don't think so as I never see her carry it around or chew it usually.


I'll definitely keep you posted on more updates.

Thanks Mars!
Match

While the concious is often confused; the subconcious knows exactly what it wants. So go deeper than the rational. Give her options to act on impulse. - just some mumbojumbo to mess with your head. :lol:

The general rule is to always work with people instead of against them. I agree, this girl is confused. However she clearly has apprehensions about getting into a relationship. Yet she shows sings of intrest and flirtation. So maybe she is not all that confused, hmm. Instead of trying to convince her into a relationship why don't you work with what you have. You realize that you don't have to be "going steady" in order to kiss someone, right? After you make your first few moves (kissing, some making out) then she might be more receptive to dating. Just a though.

You guys flirting steadily I hope. How is that going anyways?


Wait! There is a new repply...what's this,

:eek: WHOA!!!!? Have we learned nothing?

*Mantus gets up and storms out the door*

match, I'm glad you feel ready to start applying your own judgement on this one. Aside from anything else, that's showing that confidence we're looking for. However, a few small points :

Probing is another word for pushing. Pushing puts her on the spot. Being put on the spot makes her uncomfortable, makes her feel attacked, makes her feel like she can't trust you. It's definitely not giving her air. Don't get impatient with this one - I have a hunch that she'll be worth the wait.

The gum thing was a huge sign. It's a frequent beginner's tip to chew gum before you expect to kiss somone (or be kissed), so that your breath is fresh. And here's why it was signifigant that it was in a drawer - had it been in her line of sight she may well have reacted. She saw it there and her reaction was to decide that she wanted a piece of gum. However, because it was in a drawer out of sight she didn't have that prompt - she had to think about it and make a conscious decision to get up, open the drawer and get out a piece of gum to chew on. If she were a habitual gum-chewer that wouldn't mean much, but if she isn't then there would have to be something that prompted her to have that thought. As she did it half way through the second movie, it's possible (not guaranteed) that the thinking process was "the movie's almost over and it's late > match000 will probably go home after the movie > match000 may try to kiss me > I want match000 to kiss me > match000 will not kiss me if my breath smells bad > if I chew a piece of gum my breath won't smell bad and match000 will kiss me."

I don't like this idea of confronting her and being "smooth". What is smooth? Who decides how to be smooth or how smooth you have to be? Here's what I'm hearing on that one :

Your friend isn't really sure how to proceed, but he thinks it would be best for you to find out how she feels. However, he's not sure how you should go about this. Therefore, he recommends the direct approach, but he doesn't want you to blame him if it goes wrong. So he tells you to "be smooth", which gives him an out; if it doesn't work, you just weren't "smooth" enough and it's not his advice that's faulty.

Again (and I can't stress this enough), all of this is up to your discretion. You say it's time to start using your own judgement, I say you've been doing that all along without even realizing it. The best and only thing I can do is relay my wisdom to you through advice and my own perspective; if you decide that I'm full of shit and have no idea what I'm talking about, that's your call to make. If you think I'm onto something but your friend has the better approach, that's your call to make too. Or if you decide nobody but you knows what this girl needs and therefore you should disregard everything anybody is telling you and use an approach that's completely different and entirely your own, well guess what? It's your decision.

I actively discourage you from blindly following every word I say. Use your own head and figure out if what I'm saying makes sense given your current situation. Take what everybody else is saying and figure out if any of that makes sense, too. Put it all together and use it all to come up with the best approach. I promise you that I will do my best not to steer you wrong, but the reality is that I'm only one person and that I'm strongly hindered by not knowing you or this girl. It's entirely possible that were I to meet you or her that I would tell you to disregard everything I've said and do something completely different. It's also possible that what I would tell you to do in that situation would also be wrong. It's ultimately up to you to make the choice here, right or wrong and the sooner you see that and are able to proceed confidently and accepting of the outcome either way, the better off you'll be.

Once more : confidence is key. I could say it a thousand times and still not have stressed it enough.

Best wishes,
Mars

EDIT - Mantus, I couldn't agree more. The only reason we're having this discussion is because she's terribly confused right now; she knows what she wants but she doesn't know if it's right for her to want it and even if it is she isn't sure how to go about getting it. I like what you say about working with someone instead of against them. Working with someone is being supportive, being considerate, being helpful and doing everything you can to reach a common goal. Working against someone is being pushy, delivering ultimatums, being impatient and generally going for what you want regardless of how it makes the other person feel. To me it's very apparent which is the better approach in this situation.

I got a crazy idea.

If you just want to hit it...

Sounds like she already comes over. Have her over sometime to watch a movie/play drinking games with yourself and your friends.

Get her drunk get her in your room kiss her and then hit it.

If you want a relationship

Get her phone number >> Take her out for dinner and dancing/movie/boardgames/walk/etc just do it on a weekday so you don't ruin your weekend if she turns out to be boring

or if your cheap go out for coffee.

Hi Mantus,

Working with vs working against. That's a great point. Again, though, I am not sure how to proceed 'making out' with a girl who has never had a BF (I had asked why and she said she had very high standards or something like that), who is a studious 18 year old freshman. Note, studious; like, nerdy compared to sorority girls.
EDIT: heck, I'm at her level too. I have 0 experience making out. well, like 0.0001...

Well, regarding the steady flirting: I'll be honest, I am a horrible flirt. Yet, I just get the vibe that when we are talking, we aren't treating each other as just friends. Like, I'm not. And my hunch is she isn't either. So, in a sense, although we aren't flirting too much, we aren't exactly 'just friends' either.

Umm, regarding my friend's advice that I posted, yeah, I'm not sure. I just posted it cuz that is what he suggested. It's not that I haven't learned from what you said before.

My friend said that the first time I fucked up (well he says he doesn't believe its a fuck up, but I do of course), I caught her off guard and she didn't know what to say so she just said "I don't know." My friend says what if she went home, talked it over with her best friend, then came with a decision: "I will date this guy." So my friend suggests that I broach the subject again, and give her the chance to say "yes" or something like that.

Yeah, I know, it is all very contradictory.

Thanks, hope you didn't storm out too far :)

Hi Martian,

I see your point about 'probing'. I guess she'll expand on the subject herself, when given the chance, without having me 'probe it'.

That's a great point about the smooth part. I wasn't too sure either, but he suggests basically no hiccups, no awkward silences. There's no way I can pull that off.
Plus, I do agree, I need to take it slooower and wait for her to approach about it. I mean, yeah, poking at the subject now will be bad and putting her on the spot again..

Thanks, I understand about the its-my-decision part. I'm not trying to get a bunch of contradictory advice and ruffle people's feathers, I'm simply seeing how I can best handle the situation. I mean, I know people will disagree in their approaches, and I was prepared for that when I asked you guys and my friend. I was prepared to decide what is truly best, to merge the best of all worlds, and to make an informed decision given you guys' great (albeit differing) advice.

I guess if there's one thing I learned from college, its asking for help when you really need it. Believe me guys, your help was invaluable. Really.

You're right, she is confused. Argh...

Thanks for your help, again :)

I'm going to post what Martian has thoughtfully advised me (with Martian's permission, of course), because I think it will be very helpful to others in the same boat. Originally, I asked in private because I thought it was private. In retrospect, it's fine.

Hi Lunatic,

Heh, you're pretty crazy, just like your name says :D

Does text message flirting work? Like, if I know the girl's favourite song, and I hear it and txt her "heard __ song, thinking of u", is that flirty or just flat out creepy?

I make allot of promises to write stuff on this forum that I never keep. So I give you the right to bother as much as you wan't if I don't respond soon.

I will give you some tips on flirting. The prost is in the process but I am a rather slow at extracting my thoughts and I am capricious as hell = bad combination :crazy:

Cheers.



Ok, maybe this was a mistake, it's like trying to explain how to ride a bike...maybe tomorrow...

Ok, I'm ultra busy with other stuff (aka school and grad school applications) but I just have to rant this out.

So this girl who we've been talking about, lets call Amy, came to my university from around the area. She came in with 2 of her good highschool friends, a girl and a guy. The girl is her very close friend who is her roommate. The guy is her very close friend too. Basically, all they did their first semester (this semester) was hang out alot together, go home on the weekends, and generally didn't meet anyone else (Amy didn't even go to one party!! And neither has she tried ANY of the close campus restaurants at all. Even ME, who was nerdy, had at least gone to a few parties, and tried all the restaurants, and met some new friends, by the end of first semester freshman year)

Anyways, the guy is a very close friend, who I am starting to get the feeling she likes and has more than just a friend interest in. Amy laughs with her friend at every little weird, quirky thing the guy does (quite immature both for the guy to do and the girls to laugh at). The guy does weird stuff like eat 5 sandwiches while waiting in the line for more food, or like drink milk or take his food around and eat it while walking. I mean, I think he's doing it for attention; if he were mature, he would just sit his ass down and eat his food without walking around all the time eating, or "forgetting" his plates around the school cafetaria, which the girls also seem to find very cute.

or Amy will be like, "hey guy, can u untie this balloon for me? (points at balloon which is *right* in front of her, but halfway across table from guy).

apparently the guy has slept over in their dorm room too. (none of my business, really). But, its weird for platonic friends to sleep over i think... And when the guy told her today that his dorm ceiling was 'leaking', she immediately said "hey! u can sleep in our room".

Apparently the guy is going after some other freshman girl who they didn't know from before (but of course they do know now). And when Amy was eating today it looked like she and this other girl were in competition, or they weren't talking as friends would talk (not even casual friends haha).

So basically, I have a hunch that Amy AND the guy friend secretly like each other. But being inexperienced freshmen, and not willing to risk their friendship, they are going after other people (such as myself I think).

I really don't want to be the *DECOY* in this sort of deal. I'll be honest. I feel jealousy when she shows flirtatious interest in her close guy friend, because I like her. BUT, its the sort of laughing and flirting that is REALLY immature. I don't think I can stand much more of this immature freshman bullcrap.

If she likes the guy, or he likes her, or both, they should just get together, and stop wasting my time. Her confusion might stem from her interest in the guy as well.

Well, I'm just ranting, cuz well, I'm tired of this immaturity. If I were dating her, or her BF even, and had to sit through a semester's worth of this immature crap (haha look at Guy friend, he's eating 5 sandwiches while he's waiting in the salad line), I think I'll shooot myself.


Now I know why ppl don't go after freshmen, unless they're in it for the fling. ARGH

EDIT: hmm I sound jealous. I AM jealous. I should respect their good friendship, which I do. But really, if deep down they like each other I don't want to waste my last semester chasing after a frigid confused girl.

Whoa, whoa, whoa!

And you were doing so well too...

What is it I keep saying? Confidence, my friend, confidence!

Stop and ask yourself this : do you know that they like each other? What evidence have you seen that supports that? What evidence have you seen that contradicts it? Does she seem like the type who would use you to get to him?

Remember, of crucial importance right now is that you not get too involved. If she digs you, she digs you. If she doesn't, then you can at least walk away saying you gave it your best shot. If you get too wrapped up in this girl your emotions will start to get in the way and you will end up hurt if she doesn't go for you. And if you start assuming that she likes someone else or that someone else likes her you're not even giving her the chance to reject you. You're doing it for her.

Try this approach. Do you know that she likes him or that he likes her? No. You don't know that. You may suspect, but until you find them sucking each other's faces, you don't know. Is there an alternative explanation for their behaviour? Yeah, there is. You said that they're tightly knit, that they're all introverted, that none of them have really gotten to know anyone new in college and on top of all that they went to high school together and thus, have presumably been friends for a long time. It seems not only possible, but likely that they're just really good friends and that she thinks of him more as a brother than a boyfriend.

So there's that. Now ask yourself what you're accomplishing by assuming that they are (or want to be) more than just friends? Does it impact your relationship with her in a constructive way? How about him (and if you want to be with her you need to be at least cordial to her friends)? Does it accomplish anything, anything at all other than causing you pain and grief and doubt? And if it doesn't, is that pain and grief and doubt really necessary? What purpose does it serve in your life?

I'm not saying don't bear the possibility in mind. She may have made that decision and if you're prepared for it you can accept it if it comes. But there's a big difference between acknowledging the possibility of something and assuming it's the truth. Don't jump to that conclusion. There's no gain to be had in it.

Hi Martian,

Thanks for keeping me on track.. again. I tend to fall into these negative mindsets don't I. The thing is, I was so sure in what I was thinking that I didn't even think of it as me being negative.

You're right, my assumptions do nothing but only negatively impact my situation and mindset. And yes, good point about the attached part; getting to wrapped up means I will only end up hurt.

Thanks man.


As for an update, I convinced her to stay on campus this weekend instead of going home as usual (I wasn't annoying about it, only mentioned a few times and very short each time), and so we're going out to dinner and perhaps ice skating tonight (she asked "Why iceskating?" (she had just gone iceskating with friends this past weekend) and I said "we can do something else if u want."

Good work, re: the iceskating. Now you need to use it to your advantage : what can you do with this to make your intentions clear? Her question makes me think she suspects why you decided on ice skating. That she agreed and other information makes me think she may be open to (and possibly even expecting) some sort of romantic advancement.

Remember, subtlety isn't what you're going for hear. Flowers are a good option. So is a kiss, if the mood is right. Holding hands will almost definitely work for you this weekend, based on what you're telling me.

I think you're getting a good idea as to how to proceed. It's up to you to gauge the mood and figure out what's going to work. Just carpe diem, my man. Don't worry about her rejecting you. Leave the fear and doubt and nervousness behind for now - find an actual physical container that you can put it in for now if you have to, so you can worry about it later.

The onus is on you. Judging on what you've told us she almost definitely likes you, but she's definitely not going to make a move and she's not going to wait around forever. If you're going to do it, this weekend is prime time for it.

Don't worry about who else is around either. If they don't know you, they don't matter. You'll never see them again, what do you care what they think? If they're friends of yours, they'll probably be rooting for you and if they're friends of her - well, they're probably still rooting for you. Everybody wants their friends to be happy.

So stop worrying about doing it and just bloody well do it, y'know?

Thanks Martian. Those suggestiosn are really helpful. Carpe Diem. yes :D
Thats why I checked the forum before I left (but leaving now...!)

Good luck. We're pullin' for ya.

Thanks for the support! It means alot to me :D

so, update:

Well, this girl is like, giving me weird signals. Argh. We go out like we are dating, cuz she doesn't bring her friends along, but everytime I try to get romantic with some verbal liner, or *simple* physical stuff (simple to not put overt pressure, simple like bump, or quick pat), she doesn't reciprocate as if she wants to advance our relationship.

For example, verbally she'll just kind of laugh it off or reply with something nice, but not flirtatious back.

Physically, she'll let the smaller things happen (like bumps and stuff and still be walking closely), but *once* I tried the arm-around-shoulder as we were walking down a dark street, and I said "oh you're scared. Let me protect you (god I sound lame in retrospect)". She leaned away and then gave me a kind of O_o look, kind of like "we're friends, umm that's too touchy." err, i hope u get what i mean.

And its annoying as hell. Because she likes me, but why stop every one of my advances. Or like, she's not helping me help her. I hope you see what I mean. I'm doing what you and Mantus suggested: don't push her, but help guide her, be supportive. But she's not helping me help her. Its really annoying.

I paid for dinner and skating, which I don't mind. I know it goes against what Mantus says, but I am doing it cuz she is a *newb* and I have to really SCREAM that "THIS IS A DATE."

I know you said "carpe diem", but I still didn't ballz up during skating and try to hold her hand. Partly because of all those stopping signals I got, as I described above. The *only* time we held hands was during the "couples only skate song", where the rink forced ppl to hold hands or get off (thanks rink!).

Then after we walked halfway back I asked if she was still up for a movie (I had suggested it earlier, she had said "we'll see how tired I am after skating.") And she said no, she was tired and wanted to sleep. This was the first time she had ever said no to something I suggested to do.

So I was really really disappointed. And, unfortunately, all my friends tell me when I'm sad/angry/brooding it is *dead obvious* written all over my face. So I think she knew, cuz the other half way back I just wasn't being myself. I tried really hard, but I just can't hide my dissapointment.

I fell into the trap you warned me of, Martian. I set my expectations too high and in the end I burned myself. Even with the warnings you gave me (Which DID sink in), I still fell prey to them. Arggghhh


I'm not sure what to do with this girl. I don't think its gonna happen before winter break, but it might happen next semester if I keep keep going. But she's like, a rock that keeps giving me mixed signals.

In fact, noone knows the answer to this, but she could just be really not ready emotionally at all for a relationship her first year, no matter what. And she's just being naturally flirty cuz she's naturally good at it. And taht even if I keep going all of next semester I'll still get nowhere.


Sorry for such a long rant, again. I am really confused myself. At this time, I am too busy with other things to fall prey to girl troubles. Yet here I am. Its cuz I made a concious decision that my life would change this semester: I will not remain a study/academic nerd, no matter how busy/important time it is.


I also feel like my interest in her is going down. I keep doing all this, initiating everything, and I get these weird signals in return. She's not a hot model, I was attracted to her because she was cute enough, had a nice personality, and most importantly, showed interest.

Ok, I ranted again. Sorry.

All the best.. sitting here confused as hell.
Thanks!
Match

EDIT: After she had said 'no' to movies, we were walking on the way back and we had bumped into my good friend. He said I was in 'stonewall' mode myself (evidently my dissapoint was written on my face), that she seemed perfectly fine and even quite happy (which I agree with), and that it was me who was being weird. Hmmm. It is true.

Also, at the end, I had worked myself into such a weird dissapointment state that I didnt' even hug her at the door. There was a 1-2 second wait as she was going in, she was facing me with her back holding the door open. It was weird.

Well, feel free to give me a FAIL, cuz I FAILED again, even with your excellent advice. Why didn't I ballz up, carpe diem, BE CONFIDENT, and at least HUG? Cuz, I suck. That's all I can say :( I fell into a total non-confidence vicious cycle that plunged me deeper and deeper.

To be honest, at the end when we were parting I had worked myself into thinking I was totally going to stop with this girl. Like, its useless. No more. Moving on.

Needless to say I take it back now. Argh

My current state of mind is:

I'm tired of having to second guess this girl at every turn. I'm not even "playing dating/flirting games". Neither is she (I certainly hope she isnt).

You guys said patience is good. I will be rewarded later. No instant gratification.

I kinda feel tempted to just forward the link to this thread to the girl, and like, let her see everything that I am thinking. Cuz, I'm tired of this...


EDIT: I guess I am expecting too much. The most she can offer now is friendship, But I expect more. Guess it boils down to this.

Ok. After a long shower, I realize I need to:

Chill the fuck out.

She did stay here this weekend, although she said she stayed cuz of laundry, I think its cuz of my proposed date. Err, hopefully. Lol

match000 - You didn't fail on the iceskating thing. In fact, I'd say you did really well. You did exactly what I told you to - you read the signs she was giving you and you acted on them. Nobody could've expected you to do any more; if she wasn't receptive, she wasn't receptive. You weren't going to change that by having more balls or being more chivalrous or anything.

Don't let yourself get too caught up in this girl. It has to be okay with you if she's not interested.

You can't expect to make an overnight change in the way you think or feel. You can't just say "I'm going to have the nerve to make a move and if she turns me down I'm going to be okay with that" and expect it to happen. Developing the right attitude takes time and everybody hits the roadblocks you're hitting. God knows I did.

I'm going to be honest with you - you're back to square one now. If you decide to pursue this girl, know that you're doing it on the chance that she likes you and it's very possible that she doesn't. If she does, she's still going to need time. So you're back to that decision again; is she worth the time and effort? And if she is, will it be okay if it doesn't work out? Maybe she's not and maybe it won't and that's okay. Again to borrow popular wisdom, there are plenty of other fish in the sea.

You're right, she may not be ready right now. Maybe won't be for a while. She could decide next week, next month or next year that she wants to be in a relationship. When she does it might not be with you. If it comes to that and she does choose somebody else, will you be okay with it?

Just follow your instincts. All we have to judge by is what you give us. You're the only one who knows.

Don't make yourself into the bad guy here. You may not have done everything perfect, but you did what you could. You are not a failure and you did not do anything wrong. A lot of this is up to her and if she makes up her mind you may just not be able to change that.

This is how one gains experience. Don't fret, it's not your only chance at a gal for the rest of your life.

However, I think that perhaps it's not a good idea for someone who is very near finishing one's college experience to pursue a relationship with one who is only just starting theirs.

In general, I'd encourage you to learn to *relax*, stop over-analyzing, esp. in your realtionships with humans. They don't follow rules, everything is not quantifiable, you have instincts for a reason.

Lastly, I feel this is a good life experience in practicing going with your gut, rather than with your head.

Sexy AND wise, do you have a sister living near Toronto? :icare:

Thanks for the advice guys. Feeling kind of down now, because:

I bumped into her and her roommate at the school cafetaria this morning (right after our date last night). Boy, things seemed to be a total 180 degrees. Her roommate gave me the look that was like "uh oh, here he is. what's gonna happen." And the girl nicely said hi and stuff, but barely looked at me during the conversation and mostly talked and looked at her roommate. I was trying my best to be friendly (I decided to drop this one and be friends).

It looks like she's totally lost interest too. I'm just baffled how there could be such a 180 degree turn over one night.

I mean, at the end it was so obvious that something was wrong. It seemed like she was sad or annoyed or mad at me or something. Or like we're not even friends anymore. Its WEIRD.

Edit: update: i asked her over IM and apparently she's feeling sick. Right...

Remember, I told you she had a choice to make? Whether she wanted to take a risk? Well, sounds like she made it.

Sorry. I know that you're hurting, but try to see the positives : you've learned a lot about how to approach a girl, you've been rejected and now you know it's not the end of life. The next one will be that much easier.

Thanks for your understanding. I did learn alot, and a whole lot of what NOT to do either :)

Actually, today I was pretty down most of it, especially since I IM'ed her and asked about it and she stonewalled me with one-liners and obviously was playing a fucking game. Wow, even newb girls have this shit ingrained in them. I just wanted to talk.

My other good friend talked some sense into me, and I'm all good now :) Hahaha actually I'm alot better than before. Whew, live and learn. This girl won't get MY second chance. HAHAAH.


Thanks alot for all your help Martian. Although it didn't work out, I really learned alot. From Mantus too. I'm very grateful you guys were able to support me the whole way, and really, I took your advices to heart (with my own judgment mixed in, of course) and have now become all the better for it.

Cheers,
Match


I hope that others can learn from this thread, my experience, and you guys' advice, too.. :)

PS

IBlade, Mantus, a few others were right about one thing: I got waay too tunnel-visioned.
And yeah, IBlade was also right: I should have just put her down for a sec, gone out with a few other girls (which I could have done actually) and gotten my perspective back in wack.

And yeah, I don't need to ask her what I did wrong. I know now what I did wrong. I'm gonna have to quote David Deangelo, hope he doesn't mind; he sent this out on his free email list.

I did every one of these things, and I think these pretty much explain why I am where I am. Not like I care, I am too good for her anyways :)

I actually DID have other options. My mistake was that I intentionally made her my only option. Huuuuge mistake.

However, since I know I did have other options, I wasn't really too nervous on the phone though.

Match000, mantus, and the other contributors: Thanks for sharing your experiences !

Right now, I feel like I'm in the same shoes as match000, except both of us are college freshman. And I'm confused as hell as for how to approach my situation... [to be honest, I haven't had too many relationships].

I'm not sure if I actually waited too long for mine, which I bit regret, but I'm trying to walk a fine line of continuing this relationship and keeping myself open for other opportunities

Sorry, not to sidetrack the thread, I just wanted to chime in on my thoughts: I have a somewhat similar experience in my college time so far (after one quarter, as a freshman).

Her some of my experiences so far. I'm not sure how much/what type of experiences/past relationships she's had.
Neither of us have probed each other on these issues of past relationships. I haven't directly put her on the spot [in terms of asking her about the level of commitment to the relationship] but I'm not sure if I should have already or not, since I've known her for about 10 weeks now. She's given me mixed responses to any sort of moves I make.
A couple times I've attempted to put my arm around her and she won't reciprocate but she doesn't communicate (vocally or body language) to remove it. However, sometimes when I've did this, her best friend (also a girl and a friend of mine as well) is with us too, and they almost always hold hands together, although I'm pretty sure it's just done in a mutual friend, playful fashion (that is, I don't believe neither of them are attracted to their sex). Also, We're all in a group of friends of about 6 girls, and one other guy. I asked the other guy about if it was obvious that I've made moves on her and showed my interest. He said it wasn't obvious and actually didn't know that I liked her (although I think that maybe because he has not been there some of the time I've made moves.
Other moves that I've made are like sitting next to her when watching a movie or TV when the group is together (although I don't do this all the time) or just flirting with her during conversations (which often, is actually more successful in reciprocation than physical moves).
Anyways, I did (now in retrospect) have the chance to probably make a move. About a month, we watched a movie together (actually the only time we've did alone) (all the other times, it's a group viewing). We watched Crash, while I never put my arm around her, we snuggled near each other and after, slept remaining in the same position . No moves, by either of us, were made....(I suppose I should have made one then, in hindsight).
Generally, we hang out together (in the group) about a few days a week. Now, it's winter break for us, the entire month of December, and I don't know how to approach the relationship when we come back in january.


I know I totally rambled on this, right now, I'm just trying to collect all of my thoughts and wonder where I should go from here....



Advice for match000:
Anyways, in one of my past few relationships: at the time, summertime, in the fall i'd be a h.s. senior, she'd be a h.s. frosh. She totally fell for me, so I had no problems with working for that. However, I found out from our mutual friends that this was her first ever relationship of any sort, and she had no idea of how to go. Further, her parents were a bit protective. As soon as the school year began, we driftly off in our own directions very quickly.
What I took from this limited experience, is that such a gap of age [senior-frosh] actually really makes a difference, given how rapidly teenagers and young adults can mature in a matter of a year or two. Even though she (and probably your female as well) was mature for her age, there were still some intangibles (can't really put my finger of what exactly) that, I'd noticed very subtle things that display the different levels of maturity between us. As much as I would have liked to relationship the succeed; I soon realized, that, at this time, a real relationship or dating really wouldn't work, given the maturity differences between us two. Of course, I had a brief period of 'what if the relationship would work later on...' and I'd say don't worry about any of the 'what ifs.' You might miss another opportunity that would come up....

Good luck to each of us, and thanks again to everyone's advice who have been down the paths that match000 and I are walking down right down right now.

catcha back on the flipside,
will.

Hi Keyshawn,

I'm glad that my similar experience can help with yours too. Thanks for sharing your previous experience.

As you know, I'm not really experienced enough to be able to give you advice on what you could or should do. However, I do know from what I've just gone through that, no matter how 'special' you think the girl is (I had thought like, 'oh this one's special cuz she really likes me'), that if you go out of your way to accomodate their interest (ie initiating everything, being the one doing all the work, and generally just turning goo-goo ga-ga for her, tring to impress her, etc), that she'll just lose interest in a snap. Literally. Like, with the girl I was after, I think she lost it over a week of my actions, but her reaction and attitude changed on the surface, literally, OVER ONE NIGHT. She doesn't even bother being friendly at all, over IM. Its like, stonewalls me with one-liners. Immature freshmen :)

It doesn't matter how much she likes you now. It could all change very very fast. Be aware, and that doesn't mean suck up to her extra. It actually means distance yourself a little more sometimes, 'try' other girls out, and yeah, don't fall prey to the tunnel-vision I got. I know its hard to believe, but once you've gone through it like I did you'll know what I mean (I hope you won't have to though).

Regarding what actually happened between the two of you, I think that its a very very good sign that you guys 'slept' in that position. That has to mean she's very comfortable with you and wants something a little more intimate. Again, from my previous experience, do NOT let this sign get all into your head, and don't let it make you become goo-goo ga-ga and become a total wuss to her. Wuss is not the traditional wuss, more like what I quoted above from David DeAngelo: Doing everything, trying to impress her (you might try this as you flirt more and she doesn't respond, you won't know what to do so you'll say things to make yourself look good. I know I did, don't make that mistake), and etc.


All the best to you, I hope it works out,
Match

EDIT: One more thing I wanted to say is, you are also a college freshman. I think its great that you already 'got it' and are trying to go after girls (I didn't up to now because I was concerned with grades). You have plenty of time, so take your time (not necessarily regarding this girl, but in general), you are not in a 'rush' like I am.

EDIT2: Also, I kind of fell victim to the whole 'oh she really likes me, she's so special' thing. Ask yourself, do you *really* like her? Or are you just talking yourself into it because she showed interest alot in you first? In any case, I think trying to start a relationship on the first girl that showed interest is also really bad (which is what I tried to pull). Of course, I had talked myself into and ended up liking her alot, as you can tell... I guess just another thing to think about.

If I want to just be friends with the girl, is it better to just get it out into the open. Ask her something like:
"Hey I'm sorry for trying to be your boyfriend, we should just be friends."

or something like that?

Or is it better to play it totally cool and not talk about it, but just not be flirty and just treat her as a friend?

Don't try to confront her on it.

She knows what you wanted and it's not what she wanted. Just let it happen; don't try to force anything, but don't pull away from her either. If you can, try to go back to how it was before you started showing interest.

You don't have to tell her that you want to be her friend. You just have to be her friend.

Also, don't do it in the hopes that 'she'll come around' or anything like that. Do it because you want to be friends with her, or not at all.