match000

So I've been hanging out a few times with this girl that seems to show alot of interest: aka agrees to go out when I ask, isn't in a hurry to leave, touches me now and then, and is generally very nice to me.

What I don't get is why everytime I broach more serious subjects such as past relationships or what kind of guys she's interested in, she responds with a joke then changes the subject, and doesn't ask me the same thing back. She did say she's never had a bf before, b/c her standards are very high.

I know reading this sounds like she's not interested, but I know that's not true as she shows alot of interest.

she is a college freshman. I am a college senior.

match000

My friend says freshman are unstable. He says she is confused and doesn't know what she wants in a guy. Also, she probably doesn't know what to do, even if she is interested.

His opinion is that its going to be *very* hard, and likely for even a shot at a relationship this will have to go into next spring, not before this winter...

his opinion is also that since she is the perfectionist type (valedictorian, perfect SAT's) that she is very picky and will likely wait a long time to see if I am 'perfect', instead of trying a relationship first/faster..

match000

Any advice on how to start a relationship with her, preferably sooner, without scaring her off?

maleficent

How many times have you gone out with her? and what are you defining a relationship as. Relationships happen over time.. you can't just say I want a relationship with you -- and expect it to magically happen.

It's a pretty big generalization of your friend to say that freshmen are unstable, more than likely, for most it's their first time living away from home and some handle it better than others. I'm almost 41 years old, and men still confuse me, and on any given day, I'm not sure I know what I want in a guy... it's not something that all women are born knowing because it can change regularly.

Go with what you feel - ask her out - spend time with her - and form your own opinions..

Do what you want to do...

__________________

Mantus

Why in holly hell are you asking her abot BFs and relationships for? Avoid these subjects like the plague or run the risk of becomming her therapist or worse being associated with all the bad things that happened before. Remember, any past relationship/BF is one that went wrong.

If you want her values ask about them directly.

What is romance, what is a perfect evening, what's the best thing a guy can do for her, etc.

Perhaps she is actually not sure. In that case she would be looking for someone to open things up for her (pun intended), to charm her. If you think the first guy who'll get in her pants is going to be perfect think again. It's probably gona be some big asshole who will get her into bed within a few days and never call her again. Thats what happens to virgin college girls.

Now about your relationship with her so far.

She touches you, but does she move her body closer? Do you touch her? How does she respond when you close the distance? Have you had any - we should kiss right now - moments?

You are looking for intimacy here. If you havent had any intimate moments yet. Are you paying for these outings? If you are, I think you are "just a friend".

The best way to find out, is to make a bloody move.

ratbastid

She's interested, she's just nervous. She's never had a relationship before and she doesn't know how these things work. She probably secretly suspects there's something wrong with her, that she hasn't had a relationship before now.

Make a move. Worst that happens, she doesn't reciprocate. If you're pretty sure she's into you, then all that's left is overcoming her anxiety.

match000

Umm, we've hung out in group events one or two times, as part of this club we're both in. We've gone out once formally when I invited her to a show on campus, a few times just informally grabbing dinner after class (I hope these count too!).
Yesterday night I just randomly asked her to go grab a [non-alcohlic] drink, and she agreed and we had a good fun talk for an hour or so then I cut it short

Thanks! I will try to keep hanging out, trying my hardest (cuz my friend says if I don't, this one might slip away too)...


Oh. Good thing she didn't have any past things to talk about then, lol. I had assumed asking about the past was the de-facto way of hinting: 'I am interested enough in you to consider a relationship with you'.

Great points! However, does this make it look like I'm trying too hard, or could I be coming on too thick asking such things so directly?

I don't mean to sound fake, and I'm not really, but I've read online that the best approach is "cocky+funny", and this is what I tried at first. My friend told me I came across as a total asshole and girls shouldn't be treated this way, so I did a 180 degree turn around on my "approach" and became a total nice guy. This has worked so far only because she has just as much interest, I think..

And I certainly hope its not some asshole that gets in for a few days then gets out. If that is really the case for college, that's quite sad (I wouldn't know too much about this area, hehe).

Yes, when we sat watching the show on campus, she had her body leaning towards me so our shoulders touched slightly inbetween.
When we walked I would try to walk a little closer (too scared to put my arms around her, I think that's overkill), and we might bump a little and she wouldn't mind, cause we'll bump a few more times walking down the road So I guess she responds well, hopefully this is an ok indicator.
After watching the show, we went to grab a non-alcoholic drink and talked for 1.5 hours. After walking her home, I forgot to at least hug her, which I considered only afterwards when I got home. Doh! I think at least a hug would have been opportune...

Hmm, being a total noobie, I assume an 'intimate' moment would be something like both staring into each other's eyes and feeling like kissing, or something like that. Well, I don't think I've come across one yet, but I think wouldn't preclude it if I tried...

Wait, if I *PAY* for these its NOT a date? I'm just a 'friend'?? I thought its the other way around: you pay for your date, and don't pay for your friend.

I hope your analysis is correct Umm, except for that part about her thinking something is wrong with herself, cuz thats just insecure (but I've been there I guess, I was a freshman too!).

Hmm ok. I'll do it sometime but only after a few more dates because I don't want to scare her away...

And what does making a move comprise? Like, putting my arms around her, or going in for a kiss? Or do you mean like, actually asking her 'hey lets start dating'???


Thanks for the help guys!

Ustwo

Ok time for Uncle Ustwo to help you out. Mind you uncle Ustwo is a dirty old letch.

Now you remind me of when I met the Mrs. Ustwo. Well no not really but I was a college senior and she was a freshman. The rest of your story doesn't really fit at all, but thats neither hear nor there, I'd have figured it out already.

So lets pretend she never had a bf before, that means shes very horny by this time in life, thats good. On the other hand shes also scared shitless, and feels behind the curve. All her friends have gotten laid before (at least she thinks) and here she is a fresh virgin, doesn't know what to do, doesn't know what to expect and shes friends with this college senior! Oh heavens..........

Now I am going to assume she is interested. If shes not interested its a non-issue you move on from. Always assume they are interested. Now where was I, oh yes, so this girl is interested, horny and scared. Whats next? Well first off a little sagely advice young man, don't tell her about your old flings and don't ask her about hers, its just a bad thing to do. Sure it gives you something to talk about, maybe an incite to her mind, but its not information you really want to know about, especially if you ever get serious with her. Now where was I again? Oh yea, how to make her yours in a biblical sense.

Well take this IHS (interested, horny, scared) on a classic date. Make sure there is no doubt in her mind this is a date, do dinner and a movie or some god awful cliche like that, just the two of you, no friends tagging along. So blah blah blah , eat eat eat , blah blah blah , watch watch watch (go for hand holding in watch watch watch ).

Now son, the date is over, you are alone after the movie, its time to screw up your courage and make your move, perhaps you need alcohol if you are an amateur, and I don't recommend it as some people act poorly under its influence, but what ever it takes, look her in those eyes and kiss her (keep your tongue in at first, no need to scare her even more).

This here will be the cusp, the moment where all is clear, if she is indeed an IHS she will kiss you back and then the rest is up to you, though I do recommend following the three blue balls rule, and if you need to ask what that is then do so. If she sort of pulls away in disgust or an uncomfortable look, you know the kind of look that says 'how do I tell him I am not an IHS without breaking his heart', you know she has no interest and you can chalk her up to the friends category, and be on your merry way.

__________________
Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host

Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

Mantus

Not from my exprerience. I think it shows genuine intrest in who she really is. Which you should have by the way, don't fake it. People are so used to fluff talk about nothing that big questions tend to make them perk up and think "hey this guy is really intrested in me". Try to stay possitive, you can find out her fears and dark secrets when your relationship is solid enough to handle them. Don't overwhelm her with 20 questions either, just pay attention, people give openings for a deep conversation all the time.
confident / funny.
There is debate over the meaning of confidence though. To me it's being comfortable in your own skin. Some people come off as assholes because they act like: "Look! I am better then everyone else". If you really have confidence you would not need to measure yourself up against other people. I hope that makes some sort of sense.
The problem with being a nice guy is that you are walking a thin line. Women generally don't like men who are pushovers or who will put themselves at a lower level then them. What most girls seem to really want is respect and a little bit of gallantry. The other problem with being a nice guy is that it's hard to be sexual. When you do make a move you run the risk of looking insincere - as if you are putting on a nice guy act to get in her pants. I hope you get what I mean.

Next.
I think you gota start making headway with getting closer to her. So far the signs point to the fact that she is comfortable with you but is she attracted to you? Take every oportunity you can to touch her, but don't just reach with your limbs, use your whole body. When you take her hand step closer. Instead of leaning in to wisper / hear better move your whole body towards her. When you make contact, make sure that it's sexualy charged. Hold her hand a little longer then usual. Touch her shoulder and look into her eyes. There are many oportunities for touch. For example next time you open a door for her put your hand on the small of her back and usher her in.

That's too bad, try to create those moments. The only way to do that is to put a sexual vibe into your encounter. Don't be appologetic about it. You know what you want and she knows it as well. There is no need to try to trick her or yourself into it. You want her as your girl, you want her as a lover.

You are on a date ONLY after you've made out with her. Before that you are still trying to figure out where you stand. Now this is my opinion and you don't have to agree with me but why would you give something to someone? You give because you either (a) wan't something in return or (b) reward. If you go with (a), arn't you pretty much trying to buy her out? To me, that seems low and dishonest. You can justify it by saying that it's an attempt to be nice, but I think thats pretty weak as well, there are better ways to show you are a nice guy.

A kiss (not a peck). Make it on your next date. I think she has already decided if she wants you or not, my advice is to find out now. Don't ask, reach out and kiss her.

Best of luck to you.

smooth

From my experiences, Mantus is giving you excellent advice.

One thing I would pass to you, though, is that I don't as a general rule take budding dates to movies. I hate the whole concept basically because you don't get a chance to talk to one another. After you've known each other, then it's fun to go out after dinner or whatnot and catch a flick, but beforehand when you're still feeling each other out (figureatively, literally, whatever) a chat by a moonlit beach or on a restuarant patio is 100% going to net better results (if you can carry a conversation, which you both can right?)

__________________
"The theory of a free press is that truth will emerge from free discussion, not that it will be presented perfectly and instantly in any one account." -- Walter Lippmann

"You measure democracy by the freedom it gives its dissidents, not the freedom it gives its assimilated conformists." -- Abbie Hoffman

match000

Thanks for the interesting advice, UsTwo. I've never considered it from that perspective, that she is IHS: Interested, Horny, Scared.

The rest of your 'method' sounds fine except the smooch part. If they are more conservative they might still have interest but not be open to even a peck??? I dunno

match000

Yeah, that sounds like a good, solid rationale. Good point about the 20 questions, then it DOES make it seem like you're trying waaaay too hard.


I see your point. It is indeed a hard balance to make, but I am getting better at it. Wobbling between teh extremes was an experience that is helping me move towards the center.

Thanks for this great advice in general. For me, I have an update which I will write after this, below.

I see your perspective, and I agree. However, some girls are *raised* with the culture that the guy pays, ALWAYS, no matter what on dates. And, that doesn't make the girl a spoiled brat, its just their personal preference.


Mantus, thanks for the great advice. Here is my overall update:

So tonight, after a casual dinner (ie at the school cafetaria), I actually asked if she wanted to watch a movie, whether it be in theatres or in her room (on the computer). I made a point of being quick: I said "yes or no" and she said "yes".

So, I'm in her room and we hung out a bit listening to music then watched a movie. She had arranged her bed and then invited me on the bed with her to sit and watch. I made a move during this movie to put my arm around her (with a lame pick-up line), and she kind of shyed away. So we watched another movie (first one was bad, this one is romantic), and 2/3 through this movie I put my arm around her again, and this time she agreed.

So basically after that it seemed to be very clear, because she leaned on my body and we held hands.


Ok, here's where I think I majorly fucked up. I asked her to walk me to the building entrance with the intention of kissing her there (b/c her roommate was there and I didn't want to do it in the room). So as we hit the entrance there's like 3 guys standing outside. I felt awkward and didn't have the guts to kiss her myself. So I *asked* for a hug, and instead discussed plans for a next date... I think she might have been waiting for the kiss. She had broken out gum in the 2nd movie... Is not kissing and instead hugging a MAJOR mistake?

Thanks guys!

smooth

yeah, it sounds like you're fucking up.
but she's into you, evidently, so quit worrying about it before you drive yourself and her nutz.

__________________
"The theory of a free press is that truth will emerge from free discussion, not that it will be presented perfectly and instantly in any one account." -- Walter Lippmann

"You measure democracy by the freedom it gives its dissidents, not the freedom it gives its assimilated conformists." -- Abbie Hoffman

match000

UPDATE:

So we grabbed dinner and then went on a walk tonight.

I was trying to initiate more physical contact such as having my arm around her or holding hands; she didn't distance from them but she was not actively keeping them going either.

So after some casual talk I asked her how she felt the other night when we were holding hands. She said "she felt like it was going too fast." Then she said "I don't think I'm ready to have a boyfriend now." To which I said "whoa, I'm not talking about that, I just meant casual dating."

Then I asked "do you see me as more than a friend" and she said "I don't know. I don't really know."

Then I said initially I thought of her as just a friend until I got all these interest signals from her, which was why I hung out with her more. Then I asked her "Why did you give all those signals." And she said "I don't know."

Since we are both in the same club, she asked me "So will it be awkward now in the club meetings."
To which I said "No, why should it be. We haven't done anything at all, I was just asking you because I wanted to know." And she said "Oh ok, yeah that's right."

I think freshmen ARE really confused.

How should I proceed. I think it's going to be really hard...

EDIT: oh yeah, she also told me her mom told her she shouldn't get a boyfriend. but everyone's parents say that..

macmanmike6100

wow. no offense (because I'm pretty sure I know something of what you're feeling) but there's way too much analysis and testing going on here (are you an engineer?). seriously, just do it. just going with the gut and not worrying about your self-consciousness will let you get answers much faster than asking us. good luck

match000

yes, i am an engineer. so is she.

match000

my gut also tells me i might have messed this up and now its gonna be awkward. i hope not.

match000

i guess i stumped u guys. ok i'll go with my gut. wish me luck.

scout

Dude, you gotta put put your Nikes on and just "do it". Sometime in the first three or four meetings. You waited to long. That magical moment was gone. You failed to sweep her off her feet inside that magical mental time frame all women have.

Good luck.

Mantus

I talk too much, I have a gut feeling I am missing something here, so I won't post the advice

match000

well i appreciate whatever opinions you have. now u've piqued my curiosity..

Martian

Okay, dude. I get the idea (and don't take this personally, please) that you don't have a lot of experience in the ways of women. Fortunately for you, your buddy Mars is here to help you out. First, a bit of insight into what's going through her head.

She is confused, terribly confused. She doesn't have a boyfriend and she's a college freshman. This means a lot of things. First is that she's afraid. She wants to do well in school and be successful and she's probably afraid that a boyfriend might mess that up. She doesn't see how the two could mesh. She's probably also wondering what's wrong with her, because she's never been with a guy before and most or all of her friends probably have. Why don't more guys go for her? As part of that, she's probably also afraid of using you; she doesn't want to start dating you just because you're available. She's afraid that because she wants to have a relationship she may latch on to you because you're making yourself available, which is the wrong reason. And she may have parental or religious or social deterrence from dating. It's quite possible that someone has instilled the idea in her that having a boyfriend is wrong and would probably mess up her life right now. These are all possibilities, I can't guarantee that she has every one of these things going through her head, but I'm pretty sure at least some of them are there.

And now you've made it worse. This is why I suspect you don't have a lot of experience yourself; in asking her the questions you did you raised two issues. The first is that you revealed your own insecurity, which just makes her all the more unsure. You also put her on the spot, which left her feeling embarassed and possibly hurt and attacked. You just wanted to find out, but by doing it the way you did you've just alienated her. Oh and by asking about signals like that you've probably also got her worried about what other signals she might be sending out to you or other guys unawares, since it sounds like she wasn't intentionally leading you on. Major fuck up. Sorry.

So, how do you fix this? You might not be able to. It might have been doomed from the start; it's entirely possible that she was never interested in a relationship with you to begin with. Maybe she never even considered the possibilty until you started showing interest and now she doesn't quite know what to think. She doesn't know what she wants - her heart is telling her in there somewhere, but she's got all this other crap going through her head and drowning it out. She will find that voice eventually and figure this out and it's your job to help her in that respect. You cannot ask her directly. In fact, let me repeat that for emphasis. DO NOT under ANY circumstances ask her what she wants, if she's interested in you or if she wants to date. She doesn't have an answer to these questions and asking just puts her on the spot again.

My advice to you is just to back off and be low key about the whole affair. You need to show her that you're for real, that you really think she's the best thing to happen to you since you first discovered masturbation and that you want to be with her. Talk to her as often as possible. Ask her how her day went whenever you see her and how she's feeling and really listen to what she tells you. Show concern, ask questions and provide empathy. Communicate!

Don't try to hurry things along. You can take her on dates and such, maybe even hold her hand. I leave that up to your discretion. She'll let you know if it's okay or not. Don't let the romantic aspect slip completely into the background; you still want that I assume, so don't get in her face with it, but don't let her forget either. Take her out to dinner and movies, take her to romantic places. Don't try to kiss her just yet; that's putting her on the spot again. She already told you things are moving too fast for her, so just be patient.

This one is going to take a bit of time and a lot of effort on your part. Whether or not she's worth it is a judgement for you to make. Pay attention to what she tells you, both in words and actions. I promise you that as you proceed she will make things clear.

If it helps, try approaching it from this angle. What you want right now is not a relationship with her. What you want is to know if that's possible. You said you're an engineer, so use your engineering background if that will help you approach this with confidence. Look at all of this as a big feasibility test; you're trying to figure out whether the grounds here are suitable to build a relationship on. It's going to take time for things to stabilize a bit before you'll know the answer, but you need to keep an eye on the situation and constantly change the nature of your testing to suit the changing parameters as they arise.

And a final repetition for emphasis; be confident! Everything you do with this girl is just testing the waters. Rejection is an outcome, it's not a favourable one but it is an outcome which is what you're after. If you're unsure you're only going to confuse her more. Confidence, as always in relationships, is key.

Good luck.

__________________
I wake up in the morning more tired than before I slept
I get through cryin' and I'm sadder than before I wept
I get through thinkin' now, and the thoughts have left my head
I get through speakin' and I can't remember, not a word that I said

- Ben Harper, Show Me A Little Shame

match000

Martian, thank you for the wonderful reply. As I read it, alot of it clicked and made sense, and it has given me a much clearer picture of what I need to do.

Also, thanks for being honest and telling me where I went wrong.


I do have a question, I thought she wanted things slow meant that I should call her less frequently or talk less (ie on IM). Cuz, weirdly since that day she hasn't been on AIM at all I think, or in invisible mode or something.

At this stage where I just f*cked up and she's so confused, does it make sense to call her everyday? Or does she just want some space? Or is afraid of me now?

Also, my friend suggested I ask her to go study together? Because that gives us time together, but satisfying her concerns of getting good grades.

Your right about the someone instilling boyfriend == bad grades. Her mom told her not to get a BF and to concentrate on her studies. There are no religious barriers, she is agnostic/atheist.


Alot of what you said made sense. I really did put her on the spot, the signals question was *horrible*. Erg, I feel like a doufus/douchebag. This was the first girl to really, *really*, show a lot of interest in me. Don't mean to sound cocky, but I'm pretty sure of that.


Thanks buddy.

Martian

Right, daily would be a bit much. When I said as often as possible, I assumed you were both suffering from hectic college schedules, which granted was unwarranted. I'd say aim for 3-4 times per week, although that's just a general figure. If you get the sense that she's not comfortable with it, then back off a bit.

As to what she meant when she said she wanted to take things slow.. well, that was another way of her saying she doesn't know what she wants. You do want to give her breathing room, but take things slow on the romantic front. If you're not visible, she's not thinking about you and that doesn't get you anywhere. If you want to know where you stand, or even if you want her to know where you stand, you have to keep yourself in her head and the only sure way to do that is through communication. Just don't get too pushy. I'll be honest, you're walking a fine line here. You back off too much, she'll just put the romantic aspect out of her head. It's not comfortable for to think about it right now and given the opportunity, she won't. Which is fine, except that means you become a friend and that's not the goal here. You can't let her forget that you want to have more with her, but you can't make her feel pressured - do that and she'll bolt. That's what I mean when I say be low-key; be romantic, but don't try to pressure her. Make it about her and let her take her time with this.

I'll be brutally honest here - you fucked up large and I don't even know if it's fixable. That all depends on her. See, you've betrayed her trust; you made her very uncomfortable and she's probably hurt right now. She may not even realize it, but I would bet dollars to pesos that she is. You're best chance is to give her some air (not precisely the same thing as giving her space; I'll get to that momentarily) and let things develop.

I do like the study date, but try it this way; invite her to meet at the library to study together. Agree on a time and place and meet her there. Make sure you're about five minutes late - you want her to get there first. And when you do show up, bring two things with you : a coffee for her (or a tea or hot chocolate or whatever she likes) and some flowers. Whatever you can afford is fine, it doesn't have to be three dozen roses. This is one of those situations where it really is the thought that counts. Try for red roses if you can get them, or even just a single one. They're cheesy, but remember that she has almost no experience in this area and you want to send a clear signal. When you get there, find her and give her the rose first. Let her thank you, then give her the coffee. Don't mention anything else. Don't try to make another date. Just do that and then do your studying together.

The coffee is consideration - you're showing her that you pay attention to what she likes and are kind enough to take that into acount (make sure you bring one for yourself too, by the way, so it's not quite so aggresive). The rose keeps romance on her mind. You're not pushing her, but you're not letting her forget either. That's the sort of presence you're shooting for. At the end of the night, don't try to kiss her or make any moves. You can walk her home if it's late, but just to her front door; don't go in unless she invites you and don't try for any sort of physical intimacy. She might hug you, she might not. Hopefully she will, but if she doesn't just say goodnight and leave it at that.

Now a quick aside, because I said I'd get back to it. What I mean when I say you want to give her air is that you want to give her the freedom to make up her mind without going away. Giving her space is going away; it's letting her put that out of her head. Giving her air on the other hand is saying 'I'm here and I'll be here no matter what you decide or how long you take.' It's being there for her without being aggressive. It's showing her you care without asking for more - indeed, without asking for anything.

Again, good luck. All the best and I really, truly hope this works out for you. But try not to build your hopes up too much, eh? She turns you down, well, there's plenty of other girls out there and this experience will help you in learning how to deal with them in the future. If you fixate, I guarantee she won't want anything to do with you; even if you don't breathe a word to her, she'll know.

__________________
I wake up in the morning more tired than before I slept
I get through cryin' and I'm sadder than before I wept
I get through thinkin' now, and the thoughts have left my head
I get through speakin' and I can't remember, not a word that I said

- Ben Harper, Show Me A Little Shame

Mantus

At this moment if you came up to some random hottie on the street you would have ths ame chance at landing a relationship as you would with this gril. Walk up to 30 hotties and a week later you got yourself a chick who isn't all that confused about making out with you. Now I know this is probably not an option for you but it's a good fact to keep at the back of your mind for perspective.

I agree with Martin's assesment of the situation but I totaly disagree with his solutions.

It's a bad idea. If you wan't to become her emotional tampon go ahead but I'll bet you $50 that if you take this route you will be hearing about some dirty bastard who charmed her, slept with her, left her high and dry, and then you'll hear about how she wan't him back...dont become her pet.

Don't spend a cent on her. No dates. Don't even buy her coffee. The two of you are not an item. You can't buy someone's heart. Dates, holding hands, and all those other symbols of a realationship only apply when you ARE in a relationship.

Don't go out of your way to please her. Take her of the pedestal. It's self defeating. This means learning to say: no. If you grovel before someone they will never respect you and how can they be attracted to someone they don't respect?

Get your head out of the sand and look around for other women. This will keeps your head clear of tunnel vision and make her realize that your are someone that can be lost. Thus giving you value.

I think your problem here is that there is no spark, no chemestry, in this relationship. Unless you get the fire burning you will never get anywhere with her. You've established that you are a good and kind person. You guys clearly get allong, there is not need to re-enforce that any further.

Here is the basic theory.
- A "date" or "dating" are social labels for behaviour. The label itself does very little in enhancing comfort and chemestry that are necissary for a healthy relationship.
- It is therefore important to focus on building chemestry and worrying about your relationship labels later.
- Sometimes people make the mistake of trying to obtain labels intead of working on building attraction and comfort. As a result they misslead themselves into believing that they are at a certain realationship state, when in fact they are nowhere. Say a couple goes out to dinner, movies, hangs out and holds hands; even goes on a trip together. All these actions should label them as a couple who are sexually active. Yet there could be be zero chemestry in such a relationship and any attempts to move forward sexualy will be shot down.
- So the moral of the story is that you can't wine, dine or buy someone's heart. Dates and gifts are a great way to re-enforce what you already have but they won't create chemestry.

Looking at your last outing. You wen't on a date. You probably paid for her meal. You put your arm around her. You tried to have a "talk" with her. I am sure you see the pattern by now.

So what should you do? Well like I said, you need comfort (rapport, trust or whatever you wisht to call it) and you need chemestry (sexual attraction). That's how relationships start. From here you can work into intimacy, passion and loyalty or whatever you relationship framework is but all relationships start at a very basic level. If you don't have chemestry then you can never have a real relationship. Why do girls go on dates even though they don't feel that way about you? Well, free food, attention, hope that you might pull of a miracle.

This girl is already comfortable around you. So work on chemestry. This is simply flirting. Get sex into the equation. If she isn't responcive, don't keep knocking your head against a wall, move on. So I would advise you to keep this girl as a side project because investing all your energy into her has heartbreak and wasted college years writen all over it.

Now you know why I was hesitant to respond.

Cheers.

match000

Hi Martian,

Thanks again for taking the time to write such a thoughtful response.

Again, alot of what you're saying resonates with me; it makes alot of sense to do it that way.

The slower, but still-there but not in-her-face method you suggest is definitely something I'm going to run with; it is very different from Mantus' approach but I think it is the right one in this situation given the girl, and me.

I think alot of what Mantus suggests works on girls who are "well-established" and experienced, but for this girl, she's innocent and kind-hearted, and I don't think she's conciously or subconciously looking for an 'emotional tampon.' Don't get me wrong, I think this sort of stuff happens alot, but I don't think it is the case for this girl.

I like the coffee+rose idea, that is very well thought out; does it scare you guys that this is waay too romantic for me; ie I've never brought flowers to a girl, let alone on a *study* date...

The air vs space thing also makes sense. Wow, with this one fuck-up I made I'm learning alot, especially with your help!!

I have an update, which I will post below after I respond to Mantus.

Thanks again,
Best,
Match

match000

Hi Mantus,

Thanks for taking time to write your thoughtful reply as well.

I agree generally with alot of what you are saying: don't put her on the pedestal, don't need to fall over and pay for *everything* (like a push-over), and don't become her 'emotional tampon'. I've read that this 'friends zone' with girls happens alot. And this is what your warning of.

However, like I said above, I don't really think this girl is the type conciously or subconciously looking for an 'emotional tampon'. One of the 'signals' I got before was quite, umm, kinky.

I also agree with the danger of 'tunnel-vision'; however, I think that if she shows so much interest in me, it would only be logical and fair of me to respond back with just as much, if not more. Well, I haven't given the update yet, which I will below.

I also find that the sexual chemistry idea that you talk about makes alot of sense. There definitely needs to be that chemistry there, not just friendship and making casual banter. And I think Martian also alluded to this chemistry, such as buying the roses to spark more than just friendship.

Although, right now I don't want to come off too strong, after such a major fuck-up. Once I slowly rebuild the relationship to a high-trust level, I think I can afford to be more 'sexually flirty', but I think doing that now would just alienate her more, like Martian said: I'm walking a very fine line.


Thanks for your help!
Best,
Match

match000

I'm really glad that you guys can take some time out of your lives to help a fellow brother out. You don't know how much comfort, and guidance, your advice is giving me now. For that I'm very grateful. (ok dont want to get too mushy...)


UPDATE:

So tonight I had a late dinner, and called her up and asked if she wanted to keep me company as I ate. I said 'yes or no' and she agreed

So it *is* getting close to finals and she was studying, yet she agreed to take time out on a Tuesday night. Yay.

So we had a great conversation as I ate, I mean, it wasn't anything tremendously deep (I don't want to fuck up again, as I'm *horrible* at deep conversations with girls). But it was fun and light, and not awkward at all. And she wasn't in any rush to leave, or anything.

Soooooo, I think it's slowly being fixed Of course, I have to keep trying harder, but she's given me a 2nd chance and hopefully it will work out.

Definitely the ideas that both you guys have suggested will come in handy; don't put her *sooo* high that I am 'nothing', and don't get too pushy but definitely make sure I'm still there romantically. I'll try the coffee+rose idea when I feel the time is ripe; right now is too early I think, just after I fucked up with that deep question stuff.

Oh, she can't take alot of caffeine at all. Even tea would give her jitters... I guess its umm, a hot chocolate then


Thanks!
Match

iblade

When I read this, I thought: "Damn he's lost it." I think your mistake here has been to not give her a clear signal of interest early enough. Like you said, you did not really invite her clearly on a date. You either "informally grabbed diner" or "randomly asked". You should have shown more determination, I think. Make it clear that you see her as more than friend material.

If I was a girl, and some guy just "randomly" invited me, I don't know if I could see him as more than friend material. I'd want to go out with a confident and determined man. Hence, the confusion she showed. Plus keep in mind Girls are 1000 times more perceptive when it comes to dating. So my guess is:

1) She sensed your interest
2) but you didn't show your intentions clearly

That comes out as non assertive enough.

Sometimes it's good to put yourself in the girl's shoes too.

I hope it's not too awkward to see her in the club. Anyways, there are plenty of girls out there. Good luck.

__________________
We do not inherit the earth from our ancestors, we borrow it from our children.

match000

Hi IBlade,

Hmm. You guys all seem to advocate the straight-up, no 'lets-be-friends' stuff, and just date right off the bat.

However, two of my good friends have suggested the other route (true, alot of people aparently get stuck in friends zone with this): be really good friends, and don't care for one minute if it turns out romantic or not, but just have fun and hang out alot. Eventually you will hang out so much that she figures: "Hmmm... he might as well be my bf. So ok, he's my bf now". That's how one of my friends got his gf.

Plus, although I majorly fucked up, my fuck-up was an attempt to reach out and be clear what my intentions are. I see your point that my intentions were not clear enough at the onset, and so when I approached her about it she was confused.. perhaps.

But now that we are on the way to fixing it, and after my fuck-up she definitely knows my intentions, so I think the ball is in her court.. I'll just keep continuing to initiate hang-outs ('dates')...

I think this is the way I'm going to go, but of course keeping the chemistry and romantic touches going, as you, Mantus, and Martian suggest.


Thanks!

iblade

I am against you meeting her casually. Again, you are not assertive enough. My point would be to retreat for some time (1/2 weeks maybe more), but not to ignore her. Just be more distant. Go out with other girls. Tell her about it. She will then realize that she misses you (or not) and that is when you should make a clear move. Invite her to dinner (but don't pay!).

__________________
We do not inherit the earth from our ancestors, we borrow it from our children.

Martian

You've hit the nail on the head there. Normally my advice isn't so far different from what Mantus is suggesting; I do not and will not advocate playing games. However, due to this girl's and your own relative inexperience, I'm suggesting a slightly different approach. It basically comes down to knowing what you want and going after it. If you're willing to do that, I'll give you all the pointers in the world on the approach to take.

I'm not infallible. Far from it. But I've had a fair bit of experience in the field so to speak, with a lot of failures and a fair number of successes to my name as well (including the big one, the girl who I will be marrying when the time is right). I will do my best to help out those who could benefit from the experience I've gained (and the mistakes I've made). I can't guarantee I won't steer you wrong, but ultimately it's up to you to take all of the advice offered and figure out what best suits your situation.

It's not a question of being well thought out so much as it is knowing how to give a girl what she wants. If I'm honest with you, I literally came up with that idea as I read your post. It's not a difficult thing to do and once you learn how to think this way you'll be more than capable of doing it on your own. If I'm reading the situation right, what she wants is to not be confused, so I'm doing my best to help you figure out how to give her that. As for the romance, you don't get anywhere by beating around the bush. You have to be direct if you want to woo her. Again, confidence is key.

We learn a lot more from failure than we do from success. And the TFP is all about helping each other, ultimately. Just be glad that it looks like she's giving you a second chance.

Re: the update, you did good. Deep conversation isn't something you should be looking for right now. She needs to feel comfortable with you again and tonight looks like it went a long way towards showing her that she can. Just be wary, now. You don't want to just be friends and you don't want her to think that's what you're after. It's hard to say without having been there but it sounds like you did a good job of making your intentions clear without being overbearing about it; good stuff.

Feel free to walk her home, like I said, but don't try to start anything. You do not want to put her on the spot. Remember, this is all new and very confusing to her and you need to let her figure things out on her own.

I don't really like the advice your friends gave you, because if you take the 'let's be friends' approach, that's all you'll be. Don't let the relationship aspect go by the wayside. And remember that you should never get too wrapped up in a girl that you can't consider not dating her. You don't want to set yourself up for heartbreak if it doesn't work out. Things are way too up in the air right now for you to commit. After that first kiss when you're sure she's yours, then you can go ahead and fall for her, but don't let yourself just yet.

__________________
I wake up in the morning more tired than before I slept
I get through cryin' and I'm sadder than before I wept
I get through thinkin' now, and the thoughts have left my head
I get through speakin' and I can't remember, not a word that I said

- Ben Harper, Show Me A Little Shame

match000

Hi iblade,

I see what you mean. But, given her seemingly high interest level in me, I just don't want to risk alienating her by playing games such as making her miss me... I mean, that's natural enough if it happens.. hmm. I'll give it some thought. Thanks!

Regarding the don't pay for dinner thing; yep, I won't. I'm thinking, though, if its a nice big formal date where we make plans days in advance, I should probably pay for it...

match000

Hi Martian,

Heh, I did walk her home tonight after dinner. When I reached for the building door to keep it open, she thought I was 'reaching out for a high-5 or something and we had a high-5 / 1 second hand hold. Then we laughed it off. I hope that's a good sign


I like your warning. Yes, saying things the way I said them, I guess I *AM* setting myself up for a high fall if she turns out to be "just a friend" or if things don't work out.

I think she's set (ie ready and stable enough) for small hints of romance (ie roses), but not like all-out deep questioning like my major fuck-up before. So... I think I will try this way. But this is definitely a take-it-slow-girl, so I think I will only start on this romancing-hint stuff next semester after winter break.


Thanks

Martian

Okay, here's how I'm reading this.

That wasn't a high five. Unless the door handle was at a height of six feet there's no way she thought you were high fiving her. She thought you were reaching out to take her hand.

From there, we get two things : first is that she reached out too, so she wanted to hold your hand. The second is that when you put your arm forward it was the first thing that leapt into her mind. So she was already thinking about it. You didn't know quite how to react, because she caught you off-guard and suddenly it got awkward and you both ended up sharing a sort of nervous, embarrassed kind of laugh. So that's okay. It wasn't really a mistake so much as just inexperience again; all in all, you did pretty well with that.

So here's what you do; next time, be ready for it. In fact, take her hand. Reach out and hold her hand. Do not try to force anything on her, but do reciprocate when she gives you a signal like this.


I don't know when 'after winter break' is, but I'm guessing it's too far away, especially in light of this new evidence. Dude, there's slow and then there's not moving. You want to be moving and she gave you a pretty forthright sign last night that she wants you to be moving too.

You still can't rush headlong into this. You can't approach her and say 'you held my hand now lets have sex!'. But you can move on things.

My advice is this: Set up that study date ASAP. Do it as planned, but at the end of the night look for an opportunity to kiss her. Remember that when doing that it's much easier to progress through different levels of physical intimacy than jump to one, especially one you've never been at (and I have no idea if you've ever kissed a girl before, so bear with me if you have). Start by deliberately taking her hand. Both of her hands, actually, because then she has to look at you. When that's comfortable but before it gets awkward, move closer and put your arms around her. Then, and again do this slowly, lean in gently and kiss her. Pointers in case you've never done it before are close your eyes, tilt your head so you don't bump noses, lips should be slightly parted (but no tongue) and take it slow.

Pay very close attention to hery body language while doing this. You need to make sure she's giving you the okay the whole way through. If she shows any signs of discomfort or awkwardness you may need to back off, although I leave that to your discretion.

If she lets you kiss her, don't start going all serious. And if she starts freaking out after the fact (which is possible; remember she's confused as all hell right now), don't let her draw you into some sort of what are we doing/where is this going type of conversation. Just tell her that you think she's beautiful and wanted to kiss her. Tell her that it's okay if she wants to take her time to figure things out, because you're willing to wait for her. Again, give her air. Don't start pushing. In fact, a good rule here would be don't ask questions at all. Let her have a bit of a freak out, don't get defensive, stay calm and be reassuring. Tell her it's okay if she's not really sure about all of this. Let her know that this is what you want and you're willing to wait for her to make her decision.

If she doesn't let you kiss her, well, don't panic. So long as you read the signs well enough to not actually try to kiss her when she doesn't want you to, you should be okay. Even if you do try to kiss her it's not the end of the world, although it will complicate things a bit more.

And a final note, don't overreact to perceived signs. The ones you're looking for should be fairly obvious; if you have to ask if that was her trying to give you a signal, it probably wasn't. And.. oh, what's that word? Oh, yeah! Confidence!

EDIT - Oh and on the dinner issue raised above; for informal outings you're not obligated to pay. But if it's a date, I'd say absolutely you want to pay. You also want to drive or pay for the cab. Remember, she doesn't have a lot of practical experience in the dating world, which means there's not much room for subtltety. If you're taking her on a date you want it to scream 'THIS IS A DATE!' at every opportunity.

__________________
I wake up in the morning more tired than before I slept
I get through cryin' and I'm sadder than before I wept
I get through thinkin' now, and the thoughts have left my head
I get through speakin' and I can't remember, not a word that I said

- Ben Harper, Show Me A Little Shame

match000

Hi Martian,

Wow. Thanks again for taking the time to write such a great thoughtful advice.

Yeah, regarding the high-5 hand thing. It's weird. Before when I had my arm around her and holding her hand on her bed, she liked it, but later said it was 'too fast'. So then I backed off, and yesterday totally did nothing physical and down the road we'd still bump once or twice, or we were playing around while walking and I was playfully blocking her and she pushed me from behind. Then the high-5 thing. I think now *I'm* confused


After winter break would be mid-January. I think you're right about too-slow... however I am not sure how much it is wise to 'speed' it up since finals are coming in mid-December, and as a freshman who recently only aced highschool, she's looking for those top grades (but she tells me she has B's this semester, so finals are extra important for her to make or break the A's).

I really like the study date idea. But, would it make her very awkward to receive flowers in front of the library? I mean, maybe if I picked her up outside her dorm and I gave her flowers at the dorm. But outside the library, there's just a bunch of students loitering and relaxing, and then to give her flowers at that place.. heck I think I'd feel weird myself. Perhaps I'm not romantic at all.

You're right, I haven't kissed a girl like that before. I did once while drunk but that doesn't count, especially since the girl did all the work. Thanks for the pointers on kissing, and believe me, they are *very* helpful.

So you said read her body language. I can easily tell its bad if she leans away, or her face scrunches, or her face gives a weird look, but what if she just stands there kind of statue like and paralyzed, like, not moving. Or what if she raises her eyebrows in surprise, but the rest of her face is not in "disgusted" mode? Well, I'll just have to use my discretion like you said.

Thanks again! I really appreciate your help.

Martian

Right, let me clarify that too fast bit for you again.

Holding hands and putting your arm around her wasn't too fast; it was confronting her that she wasn't ready for. You asked her how she felt and she didn't know how she felt and that's what put her off and led to her rather rash statement that she's not ready for a boyfriend.

I'm pretty sure I know what she wants at this point. It looks to me that she does want to be with you. That's the good news. The bad news is I'm still not sure she knows it and even if she does she's not sure if it's wise or even possible. She might even feel a bit guilty for liking you, since her mother told her she shouldn't have a boyfriend.

So, yeah, she did want to hold your hand last night. It wasn't that part that was too fast for her. And this is why I'm saying you're able to proceed a little more quickly now - a big part of the reason I advised so much caution to begin with is because I wasn't even sure if she wanted anything to do with you, if I'm honest about it. I didn't want you to push her too hard and I didn't want to get your hopes up too much either. Now it looks like she does want you, but that doesn't mean you're guaranteed. I still advise against letting yourself get too wrapped up in her; save that for the end.

In terms of giving her the flower - well, you know her. I don't. I only have a couple of snippets given to me by you and while that gives me enough to get a basic idea as to what's going through her head, I have no clue what her personality is like. Would she be more comfortable receiving something like that in private or would she be okay with the whole PDA deal? (PDA = Public Display of Affection) Are you comfortable giving her flowers in public? If you'd be a nervous wreck giving her the flowers in front of the library, that doesn't do you a whole heck of a lot of good. So if that's the case, then yeah, by all means do it somewhere a little less crowded. Just don't use getting her alone as an excuse not to do it, is all. It's a bit like that other night when you wanted to kiss her. You waited and waited because you wanted to be alone and then you lost your chance. Actually, while I'm on that subject, her chewing gum may or may not have been a sign that she wanted to be kissed, depending on her character; does she chew gum regularly? Was the gum in sight or did she have to get it out of a purse or drawer? Is chewing gum during a movie something that you think she'd do without really thinking about it?

The bottom line is this; you know her, you know her situation, you know her schedule and you know yourself. I have only what you choose to give me. I can take things apart and put them together and analyze and give you advice endlessly, but I cannot tell you precisely what to do in any given situation because I do not have all the facts. The only person present does is you. I advise against waiting too long to make a move, but if you get the sense that you'll just be adding unwanted stress to her life at a very stressful time for her than that might outweigh the reasons I gave for moving a little faster. I don't know. The final judgement on all of this is yours. Just do yourself a favour and don't make excuses; it's easy to keep making excuses not to do something when it's hard or intimidating, but all that ultimately comes of that is you never get what you want. Just bear that in mind.

__________________
I wake up in the morning more tired than before I slept
I get through cryin' and I'm sadder than before I wept
I get through thinkin' now, and the thoughts have left my head
I get through speakin' and I can't remember, not a word that I said

- Ben Harper, Show Me A Little Shame

match000

Hi Martian,

Your analysis on the holding hands vs confronting == too fast makes alot of sense. I didnt think about it that way! Hmm, I need to work on my analysis haha.

I see what you mean. I think you and the other guys have given me enough great advice to really let me start applying my own perspective and judgement, and analysis to things.

And I see your point about the moving faster thing. That really *is* important. Thanks for keeping me on my toes on that one.

I asked my good friend and he said that confronting her again, like I did last time, is a good thing. I just gotta do it smooth this time, no hiccups and awkward silences. And when she says "I don't know", I need to probe more into her reply, not just bounce off and fire more questions. And, he says that I should feel for a right, comfortable time to ask/launch into this deeper conversation; it could be next time we hang out, or in a week; I just gotta feel the right time out myself.


This is just FYI if you were curious; the gum was in the drawer, and she pulled it out during the movie I don't know if she chews gum alot, but I don't think so as I never see her carry it around or chew it usually.


I'll definitely keep you posted on more updates.

Thanks Mars!
Match

Mantus

While the concious is often confused; the subconcious knows exactly what it wants. So go deeper than the rational. Give her options to act on impulse. - just some mumbojumbo to mess with your head.

The general rule is to always work with people instead of against them. I agree, this girl is confused. However she clearly has apprehensions about getting into a relationship. Yet she shows sings of intrest and flirtation. So maybe she is not all that confused, hmm. Instead of trying to convince her into a relationship why don't you work with what you have. You realize that you don't have to be "going steady" in order to kiss someone, right? After you make your first few moves (kissing, some making out) then she might be more receptive to dating. Just a though.

You guys flirting steadily I hope. How is that going anyways?


Wait! There is a new repply...what's this,

WHOA!!!!? Have we learned nothing?

*Mantus gets up and storms out the door*

Martian

match, I'm glad you feel ready to start applying your own judgement on this one. Aside from anything else, that's showing that confidence we're looking for. However, a few small points :

Probing is another word for pushing. Pushing puts her on the spot. Being put on the spot makes her uncomfortable, makes her feel attacked, makes her feel like she can't trust you. It's definitely not giving her air. Don't get impatient with this one - I have a hunch that she'll be worth the wait.

The gum thing was a huge sign. It's a frequent beginner's tip to chew gum before you expect to kiss somone (or be kissed), so that your breath is fresh. And here's why it was signifigant that it was in a drawer - had it been in her line of sight she may well have reacted. She saw it there and her reaction was to decide that she wanted a piece of gum. However, because it was in a drawer out of sight she didn't have that prompt - she had to think about it and make a conscious decision to get up, open the drawer and get out a piece of gum to chew on. If she were a habitual gum-chewer that wouldn't mean much, but if she isn't then there would have to be something that prompted her to have that thought. As she did it half way through the second movie, it's possible (not guaranteed) that the thinking process was "the movie's almost over and it's late > match000 will probably go home after the movie > match000 may try to kiss me > I want match000 to kiss me > match000 will not kiss me if my breath smells bad > if I chew a piece of gum my breath won't smell bad and match000 will kiss me."

I don't like this idea of confronting her and being "smooth". What is smooth? Who decides how to be smooth or how smooth you have to be? Here's what I'm hearing on that one :

Your friend isn't really sure how to proceed, but he thinks it would be best for you to find out how she feels. However, he's not sure how you should go about this. Therefore, he recommends the direct approach, but he doesn't want you to blame him if it goes wrong. So he tells you to "be smooth", which gives him an out; if it doesn't work, you just weren't "smooth" enough and it's not his advice that's faulty.

Again (and I can't stress this enough), all of this is up to your discretion. You say it's time to start using your own judgement, I say you've been doing that all along without even realizing it. The best and only thing I can do is relay my wisdom to you through advice and my own perspective; if you decide that I'm full of shit and have no idea what I'm talking about, that's your call to make. If you think I'm onto something but your friend has the better approach, that's your call to make too. Or if you decide nobody but you knows what this girl needs and therefore you should disregard everything anybody is telling you and use an approach that's completely different and entirely your own, well guess what? It's your decision.

I actively discourage you from blindly following every word I say. Use your own head and figure out if what I'm saying makes sense given your current situation. Take what everybody else is saying and figure out if any of that makes sense, too. Put it all together and use it all to come up with the best approach. I promise you that I will do my best not to steer you wrong, but the reality is that I'm only one person and that I'm strongly hindered by not knowing you or this girl. It's entirely possible that were I to meet you or her that I would tell you to disregard everything I've said and do something completely different. It's also possible that what I would tell you to do in that situation would also be wrong. It's ultimately up to you to make the choice here, right or wrong and the sooner you see that and are able to proceed confidently and accepting of the outcome either way, the better off you'll be.

Once more : confidence is key. I could say it a thousand times and still not have stressed it enough.

Best wishes,
Mars

EDIT - Mantus, I couldn't agree more. The only reason we're having this discussion is because she's terribly confused right now; she knows what she wants but she doesn't know if it's right for her to want it and even if it is she isn't sure how to go about getting it. I like what you say about working with someone instead of against them. Working with someone is being supportive, being considerate, being helpful and doing everything you can to reach a common goal. Working against someone is being pushy, delivering ultimatums, being impatient and generally going for what you want regardless of how it makes the other person feel. To me it's very apparent which is the better approach in this situation.

__________________
I wake up in the morning more tired than before I slept
I get through cryin' and I'm sadder than before I wept
I get through thinkin' now, and the thoughts have left my head
I get through speakin' and I can't remember, not a word that I said

- Ben Harper, Show Me A Little Shame