Being felt up in public.
 

This started as a journal entry, but then I nearly put it in the Ladies Lounge, but I think here will work as well, as it isn't really just a woman's issue.

Last Thursday Sissy and I were at the mall engaging in one of our favorite activities: Trying on clothing we had no intention of buying. It's late summer, so it's a little crowded even on a Thursday afternoon, filled with teenagers and parents buying back to school clothes, and kids just hanging out in groups (don't they have houses or parks or empty parking lots behind the 7-11 where they can hang out?). Sissy keeps running into friends from school, and she takes off to hang out with them. Teenagers; don't want to be embarassed by their fuddy-duddy older sisters, I guess. Especially when the older sister is an instructor at their University and they want to gripe about instructors.

So I'm by myself, and I head into the little hobby store, where they have among the model rockets, cars, and trains, K'Nex sets and so forth, what I'm looking for, collectible miniatures and statuettes. I'm hoping there's some rare chance that they'll have a Phoenix Heroclix. I found one at the San Diego Comicon, but the guy there wanted $100.

There's essentially about a dozen nerdy looking guys, the clerks, also nerdy-looking guys, and a geeky looking girl, me. I was wearing my typical summer wear, mid-thigh denim skirt, full-length cranberry spaghetti-strapped cotton tank with built in bra, matching canvas tennis shoes. Nothing overtly sexy or provocative, just typical young woman summer clothes, and a lot less revealing than most of the girls were wearing that day.

They didn't have the Phoenix Heroclix, so I'm standing at the display case of maquettes (small bust style statuettes) trying to decide whether to get the new Hawkgirl they have there, when a guy sidles up beside me.

I'm used to sidlers from having been among them many times at the comic shop. Some of the guys are so awkward around girls that rather than just come up and talk to me, they'll sidle up. Kinda cruise up slowly nearby, pretending to look at whatever is on the rack I'm looking at, and get very close, occasionally rubbing up against me. I've learned that one good counter is if the guy doesn't leave soon, I can turn to him, look him in the eye, smile, and say, "Hi." This usually cases them to turn red and retreat to wherever they came from. I have no idea why. Other times I just walk away myself, but this has proven to be less effective than the "Hi" defense, as sometimes they follow me to my new location if I don't leave the store.

You know, as an aside, I've read online that some women don't read comic books because the only place they're readily available is in comic shops, and some women are a bit reluctant to go into such places. Someday I'll try to figure out why this is.

So I'm looking at the display of maquettes, and the sidler comes up beside me. It isn't Cat Piss Man, whom I have encountered a couple of times in his various incarnations, but it's enough to make me a little uncomfortable. I'm debating whether to just walk off, or scare the crap out of him by saying hello, but he takes it up another level and makes the decision for me. He put his hand on my breast. Oh, I have no doubt that he had some excuse formed that he would consider plausible deniability, but this was unmistakable. He reached out in front of me, as if reaching for something on display on the shelf just past me, and his hand landed on my breast, where it lingered for a bit.

I turned and left the shop, called Sissy and told her I was going home, asking if maybe she could get a ride with one of her friends. She must have heard something in my voice that told her I was upset, because she came to meet me and go home with me.

I ended up crying on Grace's shoulder that evening, and didn't have a real pleasant night.

I talked with Grace about it, and I'll talk to my therapist, but I can't help that it makes me feel small every time something like this happens. I've tried to figure out what it is that makes the guys target me like this. It's been a long time since I've encountered the hand on my breast, but I've gotten more than my share of being rubbed against and hands on my rear.

I've tried to identify what it is about me that guys see that makes them think it's ok to pull this stuff. I've talked with Grace and Sissy, and it doesn't happen to them, or at least very seldom with Sissy, and never with Grace. Grace says that if the same thing had happened to her, she would have very forcefully removed his hand--there's a way of maniplating the hand and wrist that's very painful pretty much gives you control over the other person just with a few pounds of pressure on that one part of the body, and she's very good at it. She says that's why the guys leave her alone.

But how do they know that she's going to humiliate them and I'm just going to walk away upset? I mean, sure, just looking at us you can see that she's a lot more formidable physically than I am, but still, an observer, a stranger like the guy who felt me up, who was over six feet and probably 230 or 240 plus, for a guy that size, there really isn't much difference between my 110 lbs. and Grace's 135 lbs. We're both still tiny compared to a guy like that. I know that he could basically have his way with me and snap me like a twig if that's what he wanted, while if he messed with Grace he'd likely end up in the emergency room, but there's no way for him to know that just by observing us.

And it isn't that I dress provocatively and invite it. I wear mostly relatively conservative casual dresses, or skirt and top sets. Grace typically shows more skin than I do, and is built like a Playboy centerfold. And I'm not trying to imply that women who do dress provocatively or show a lot of skin deserve such treatment. They don't.

So I can't help but come to one of two conclusions. First, I'm imagining things and overreacting. The rubbing and hands on my rear are just accidents that I read too much into. This doesn't make sense to me, as I've been in all of those situations where a guy rubbed up against me and a hand ended up on my rear or this time, my breast, and I've never ended up rubbing myself up against someone or accidetnly put my hand on a woman's (or man's for that matter) butt or breast. And the women don't rub up against me or "accidently" put a hand on my butt.

The other conclusion is that I'm doing something to invite this. This doesn't make sense either. There's no way a guy can know just by looking at me that I'm so skittish about that kind of contact that he can do so safely and all I'll do is walk away. There's no way to know just by looking at Grace that she'll have his wrist contorted at a very painful angle the moment his hand ends up in the wrong place.

So I'm wondering, are they targeting me, or do they target all women and just leave those with what Grace calls her "Don't fuck with me mojo" alone? Or maybe it is all incidental, and I'm imagining it because I'm oversensitive to such things.

Sissy gets the occasional hand on her rear, but shrugs it off as no big deal, all a part of being female in the US. If the guy is anywhere in the vicinity of cute, I'm half conviced that she enjoys it and is flattered.

Most of that probably makes little sense, but that's how it runs through my head as I'm trying to make sense of it all, trying to find some way of making it fit in my mind.

I'm doing ok, but I think I'm in an acute state of cognitive dissonance. I can't find a way to fit this information into my head, a way to have it make sense. Either I'm imagining it or the guys who do this sort of thing have some sort or magical radar that tells them which girls are going to react which way, and neither of those really fit with my experience. I can't assimilate the information, but I don't know how to accommodate it.

Gilda

For one, you're in "their territory" when you're in a comic store. I don't know about Grace, but Sissy doesn't sound like she goes into those too often by herself. Also, it could just be how people perceive you. Maybe you act very gentle and passive in public, and they consider it to be an invitation. The only way to be sure would be to ask them, while they were hooked up to a polygraph. Either way, as far as ass brushes go, I'd consider them to be accidental if I were you. Much of the time they are accidents, and I'm not sure what good it does to consider them purposeful (unless you're flattered by that kind of thing, like me). The breast grabbing though, I can't say, although you should have punched him or something.

This is a very confusing situation. All I can offer, perhaps, is some insight into the dirtbag who did that to you. As a male comic book fan, I can speak for all of us when I say that my radar always goes off when I see a girl in a comic book store. It's a novelty to most comic book guys. After all, girls don't like comic books, do they?:rolleyes:

Just think of how women are portrayed in comic books. Things get better all the time, but do you think a man could possibly learn to respect women from reading them? I don't. That has to come from interacting with them. Maybe all this loser knows about women came from the Marvel Swimsuit issue. I don't think he even considered your feelings in this situation.

It's inconceivable that you did anything to provoke him. I think he would have done it to anyone.

Sounds a bit out of the ordinary. I think its just a chance situation, you just happened to be there at that moment. Theres nothing that you could do to invite such behavior. But one thing you can do is stay out of shady situations with abnormal men lol.

No. Gilda was in a comic book shop, not some back alley club. No woman should have to consider a comic book shop a "shady situation." If it's run by bikers, that's one thing, but that was not the case. Women should be on guard in certain areas (unfortunately too many), but let's not add comic book shops to that list. Instead, let's think of how we can make the comic industry a more equal place and maybe teach nerds, like the one I used to be, about real women and how they don't like non-consensual touching.

Besides, suggesting Gilda not go into comic shops would be like suggesting the Bush administration not go into Iraq.

As a guy, I find the breast-grabber's actions disgusting. I don't know if its my conservative upbringing or the huge respect I have for women in general (I think I get that from my Mom), but if I saw something like that happen I'd prolly go over and kick the offender's ass.

That shouldn't have anything to do with it, and shouldn't make it any less wrong.

No woman should have to endure what you went thru. You strike me as someone who wouldn't be able to just slap the dude, but a good tongue-lashing is sometimes more effective. There's nothing wrong with you, and it would be wrong of you to think that. Secondly, if you didn't utter the words "feel my boob", then you weren't inviting it. The guy was an ass. End of story.

I'm stunned. That guy must have had severe Asperger's Syndrome or something. A real mouth-breather.

I'll admit that I've been known to sidle, usually because I'm trying to think of something to say that doesn't sound stupid. This guy didn't bother to think and was just a total asshole.

Shoulda smacked him one, plain and simple. Or called the cops on him. Or find out where he lives and throw bricks at his windows or something. Bastard.

Gilda, that was assault. You didn't invite it.

Damnit, I'd be staking out the store and filing a complaint if the guy shows again.

Hopefully he's a harmless idiot lost in his comic world, but I can't shake the feeling he could be escalating his encounters.

Argh, pisses me off.

gosh, i go crazy when my bf touches my bum in public!!!imagine a stranger???i'd totally freak out.i most probably would've lashed out at him or something.made him feel like an inch tall my slapping the shit outta him.just reading about your problem has gotten me all riled up...to think that there are some guys out there who have complete, absolute and total disrespect for women...it disgusts me!!!i cant even begin to describe how.

had i been with you ...i wuda totally beaten him up for you. there is like so nothing wrong with you. and i know you felt violated and stuff... but the only reason you shoulda been crying is to think that there are actually men out there who are such ignorant, arrogant, egotistical, immature, insensitive pigs that they could actually do something like that, when you(as a woman) deserve so much better!

Maybe things are just different out in California than they are in North Carolina, but at the comic store in Asheville that Sage and I hang out at, I couldn't imagine something like this happening. Not only have I not ever seen anything remotely like blatant boob-grabbing (and we do get plenty of girls, and yeah sometimes they get hit on even if they're obviously with someone else), but on top of that I know for a fact that the owner (and probably the professional bouncer that hangs out there too) would personally boot the offender right out the door and/or call the cops if something like that DID happen.

Most people I've ever encountered wouldn't put up with something like that, and most men I've encountered have a built-in "protect women" function. I'd wager that if you'd yelled "HEY, DON'T YOU GRAB ME, YOU SICKO", this guy would have instantly been on the receiving end of plenty of unsavory attention from anyone else in the store. After all, what better way to make themselves look good to you than publicly defend your honor? :)

It doesn't matter were she was at nobody has the right to grab or touch anyone period. The guy obviously has issues it's not Gilda's fault she was in a comic store thats something she enjoys she should have the right to go into one with out having to be touched or groped. I don't think it is her fault in anyway it don't matter if she was being percived in that way she didn't say hey guy grab my breast. There are just sicko's out there that think they can do anything they want to women and get away with it and that's wrong. If I would have been in that store and seen it I would have knocked the guy out. Maybee she does seem shy and timid but that still isnt a excuse for that kind of behavior. Gilda I know you probably do think it is you but it's not there are just sick people out there that like to pray on people and from what I have read about you on here you are a real sweet person and those types of people prey on nice people so it's not your fault whatsoever sorry about the rant this stuff really gets to me.

I am not surprised by this at all... I can't count the number of times friends of mine have (almost all women) told me stories similar to this one... There are men who just feel it is their right to cop a feel.

Most of them just do the slide and stand in your space, or will "brush up" against you... it sounds to me like this idiot was pushing his boundaries.

When I was a little kid I used to get perverts every once in a while. Nowhere near what my girl friends would relate but from time to time the horny old man with a penchant for little blue-eyed, blonde boys would make a pass at me.

No one ever completely groped me but I a lot of accidental brushing against.

Gilda, there are many creeps out there. I know you know that it wasn't your fault. You just need to keep telling youself this. Some here have suggested you should have belted him or yelled or whatnot... I've been there, I know why you didn't. It's OK.

She could have been standing stark naked and it wouldn't matter... Her personal space was invaded, and unless she was wearing a sign that said, it's ok to touch me, that guy had no business touching her.

I really don't understand the mentality that some people have that think it's OK to touch another person. It is definitely assault. This is one of those incidents that wearing stiletto heels comes in handy.. .years of riding the subway where some men would grab any ass available to them, you got pretty good with a well placed heel to the instep...

I'm sorry that it happened to you, especially in a place that is normally fun for you... and it won't prevent you from going back into comic book stores in the future.

damn...that's just not okay.

i do think that "Don't fuck with me mojo" exists...but failure to display said mojo isn't a personal invite to be assaulted or groped. it's just so frustrating to see how much of civilization isn't behaving civilly. when i go out, i don't expect to get hassled like that...and i certainly hope you never do. prepared in case something does happen, yes.

i've got a few friends who pretty much stop all traffic in comic shops...i'll have to ask them how they deal with the creeps. maybe ask grace to show you that hand trick.

Thank you for the feedback.

I'm going to be taking off to Six Flags in a few minutes, so I don't have time to respond fully right now, but I wanted to make a couple of things clear.

I obviously wasn't clear about where I was in my OP. I was at the mall in a hobby shop, one of those places that sells model kits, rockets, electronics experiments, K'Nex, collectible figurines and so forth. It just has a similar atmosphere to the comic shop, and has some of the same toys that they'd have at the comic shop.

I don't think that I invited the intrusion. My question was more along the lines of why do bullies target certain kids in school, but not others? The kids that are picked on in schools aren't inviting it, I've counseled a few of them, but the bullies always seem to target some kids but not others, and there's no pattern I can see other than those who get targeted are different. But it isn't all the kids who are different, just certain ones, without a pattern that's easy to identify.

So what I was wondering, and really it's more of a rhetorical question than one I'd expect an answer to, was why am I targeted but not Grace? Why are some women, and in Charlatan's case, some children picked out while others aren't? There must be some signal we're sending out that says we'd make a good target that others don't.

Gilda

I think predators have a sense for this kind of thing... not quite instinct but close. They just know what to look for... It could be the way you stand. It could be the way you avert your gaze. It could be the way you breathe...

All I know is this... if you are obsessed enough about something you will figure out how to do it well.

I've spent a lot of time studying child psych, and playground interactions is what most interest me. Bullies pick on kids that wont fight back. Passivity can be read like a book by many people. Why do they do this? Because most bullies dont have low self esteems like many people believe, but oversized ones. Their ego is bigger than their britches (as the hicks here say). People who fight back run the risk of bursting their ego bubble, and once you see a bully get his ass whooped most people no longer fear them (chain reaction, suddenly others are willing to fight back).

So does this carry over from men to women? Only in some ways.

Those boys probably have never even kissed a woman, the only interaction they get is in those comics, in which a "man" dominates the woman. In their mind all they need to get women is to be a "man" and take hold of the situation (litterally in this guys mind). You said it yourself they're scared shitless of you, they dont know how to interact, and this guy majorly screwed it up. You never said how old he was, but being 240 I figure at minimum 16, that's old enough to know it's wrong with no excuses.

What do you do next time? Nut-shot him, good and hard. You said he was 240, well he wont touch you after that. He could, dont get me wrong, but it's in a public place. Ontop of that every single witness would take your side, and ontop of that he'll know he deserved it. You have the right to go in those stores alone without feeling scared, if you feel threatened, get a can of mace... that stuff sucks (and no cop will arrest you because they assaulted you first).

I can make a pretty good guess as to why this creep decided to push things with you.

Self defense trainers usually have some spiel about "being a victim" and this is pretty much true... By not actively asserting yourself in your environment, you do give off these "victim" vibes.

In your original post, you actually mentioned that you will sometimes turn to the person, look them in the eye and say hello... By doing so, you have asserted yourself to that other person, and unless they are very agressive, they will back off.

So what should you do? When some one starts "sidle"ing up to you, turn and look them directly in the eye. If that doesn't work, turn yourself to face them square on and say something (like "hi" or "can I help you?").

Eye contact is probably the most powerful tool you have to use. Try to maintain eye contact until the other person looks away.

I'm amazed that any guy could do that to a girl. That's just asking for a slap in the face and a lawsuit. You could seriously get that guy in trouble with the law if you had turned him in. I realize that you wanted to get the hell outta there, however. The guy is another nerd who realizes that he's never going to get a girl because of his own issues and must resort to "having fun" with girls without their permission. If there was any decent guy in the vicinity I'm sure the breastman would have left you alone. Sorry you had to go through that. :(

-Lasereth

What a fucknut. This is why I get all over-protective of my female friends (most of whom are physically smaller than I). Because I'm aggressive. Very. If someone's sidling, they get direct eyecontact and if they're skeevy, they get distinct cold-shoulder-leave-me-the-fuck-alone-dirtbag vibes. Don't get me wrong, I'm usually pretty friendly, but I will turn on the anger vibes to scare them off when necessary. I've been places you've been, Gilda. I know how it is to be too startled or intimidated to fight back. But these days... no more. It's good to be a little mad. This guy is an asshole, and yeah, I would wonder about his escalation of such events. Bet he's a fucking peeping tom too.
/deep breath

YOU didn't do anything wrong. I would bet you don't give off a lot of confident vibes, or bitch vibes in all situations. That's what you'll want to learn. No one has ever grabbed my breast, and I feel that's because of the way I present myself, my body language. (I sorta look harmless, blond chick with young features, etc.) Decide what you want to project, and feel it. It's sort of like wearing Deet for mosquitoes... they leave you alone and don't even realize why most of the time.

However.... please don't take my advice to mean I think it was you. I don't. He's still a fucking cocknugget of scum. However, putting out a stronger vibe of what you want them to see might help you. Don't feel like these people target you. Feel like they wouldn't dare.

I'm sorry this happened. I only wish I had been there to teach the fucker a lesson. Next time (though I pray there isn't one), you'll teach 'em.

I really believe that body language has a lot to do with it.

A couple questions first and then I'll post more later:

How do you stand?
1. Do you hold your head up while walking or look toward the ground? Is your chin/jaw generally level with the floor.
2. Do your shoulders and back form a slight curve forward or more backward (military style - or it feels that way somewhat)?
3. Do you take short steps or do you stretch your legs out forward as you walk briskly?
4. If you encounter someone's eyes how long do you hold their gaze? How many seconds?
5. If you encounter someone's eyes and then look away, which direction do you're eyes go? Do they slide sideways? do they close and then look away? Do you slide your gaze down?

I have personally found ways to invite advances when I WANT to flirt or to turn them away when I dislike the advances. These ways use Primarily the body language areas mentioned above.

Amen to what Ambient said. The "passive" vibe is certainly visible -- and with five minutes at the mall I could show you the women most likely to be victimized. If you don't make eye contact or are otherwise ignoring the "groper," then you're just an object. We've talked about objectification a million times before, but that's exactly what creeper is looking for.

As soon as you look at him or say "hi," he's forced to realize that you're no longer an object for his sexual lust but a person with feelings. Even the creepiest of creepy will shy away from this, because they-themselves have been on the recieving end of many unfortunate jabs. If you're able to forget its a person on the other end, it's very easy to do all sorts of creepy and evil things. I'm certainly not saying that a comic book store or any-other-place for that matter is a bad place to be, but remember to BE A PERSON. If you don't set yourself apart from the surroundings as a human and not an object, then you're going to look exactly like the porn that aforementioned creeper likely wanks off to daily.

I highly suggest you download/checkout/buy a movie called Dreamworlds II. I had to watch it for my "Sexuality" Philosophy class last year, and it addressed this very topic. It showed, quite blantantly, the messages that media like MTV sends. It shows hundreds and hundreds of MTV "music videos" where women are portrayed as always-willing and never-offended by a strong and domineering man. The narrator goes on-and-on about what a horribly distorted image of women this gives the viewer. MTV actually tried to get it banned, as "slander", but the court ruled in favor of the documentary. I had never really analyzed that my perception of women might have been a bit fuck'd until I saw the video, so it's very likely that Creeper has never known anything other than the way he treats women currently. The best way to teach him is to show him that there ARE assertive women who'll say "hi" and not let themselves be groped. The documentary is quite interesting, and I think it might help you get over your fear of the overtly-groping creepers. :)

Gilda, a similar thing happened to me in Zambia. This cocky guy wanted to have a picture with me and the other female student with me (from America). This was pretty typical behavior in Africa... people want pictures of you with them.

So he stood between us, his arms around our shoulders, and there was this moment when his hands touched/grabbed our breasts from the side... I blinked and thought, did that just happen?

The picture was over, the guy left, but I looked at Jen and wondered if the same thing happened to her. I asked her later and she said yeah, and we were both upset about it... feeling much as you did in the comic shop. I've actually never been touched like that before. I also was thrown off since I was in a very foreign setting, and knew that if I responded as a Western woman, something bad might happen.

Anyway, I've always prided myself on having the "don't fuck with me mojo" [Edit: just saw Raeanna's post, and I think she's right on the money... that's what I am usually very conscious of, in terms of body language and looking like a kick-ass woman.], but I didn't have it in this strange, foreign situation.

I've resolved that if any man or woman touches me without permission, in any country, they're gonna get a nasty verbal warning, slap in the face, or knee in the balls, if not worse. Sometimes these things deserve a physical response... I dunno. It is assault, to me, and I guess I feel like someone's asking for it if they cross that line.

Learn karate and break his arm, all woman should take some self defense. You sound as if your confidence is shaky as well,by the crying you did after the assault. Most folks would had been pissed,maybe even belligerent.No one should have to tolerate such behavior.

Lisa Simpson figured this out, didn't she? A pheremone that we geeks exude that bullies are sensitive to. IIRC, she named it "Poindextrose." ;)

Seriously, there are jerks out there in the world, and they seem to have a sixth (sick?) sense of who the easy prey are. Best you can do is learn not to give the signals of easy prey.

He sized you up and found you wanting. Men size other men up all the time. It makes all the difference between throwing the first punch and running the hell away. A woman will size up her boyfriend's ex when they meet unexpectedly. We all size up new colleagues and friends when we first meet them. What the 'groper' did isn't too different.

Not to mention you were on his 'turf,' which is to say the area where he would feel most comfortable expanding his boundaries. You're attractive, you're alone and you're shopping in his 'territory.'

Now, that certainly doesn't mean you deserved it. It doesn't mean that you invited it and it certainly doesn't condone this idiot's actions.

raeanna is absolutely on the mark about it all being about body language. You say nobody screws with Grace? Watch her walk in public sometimes. Watch her interact with strangers. I imagine the differences are very noticiable.

Probably a poor choice in words. Before anybody goes off on guthmund, I don't believe he used the word "wanting" to imply desire.

its much more him than you.

that being said, you should've slapped him. or found a cop and told him to at lease give the jerk a scare. because he got off free, he'll probably end up doing it again to someone else.

I never said it did. You seem to misunderstand my statement. I was no condoning anything; she asked for attempted explanations, and I attempted one. Explaining behaviour and excusing it are two different things.

Let me apologize for those of my gender who would act in such a way. Most of us are okay dudes (myslef included), but occasionally there are social deviants who have no comprehension of empathy or acceptable behavior. I've been grabbed in public a few times, but as someone who stands over 6' and around 190 lb., it's clearly not the same. You are right in being very much bothered by this.

I ran a comic book store for just over 3 years, and saw this kind of behavior numerous times. As I've said in the past, I also worked part time as a bouncer. The men I saw engaging in this kind of behavior were asked to leave my store, and never return. If they refused, I would ask one more time, then resort to grabbing them by an ear and dragging them out. Since I had asked them twice, and was not doing lasting physical harm to them, that was legal. I never had one of them return.

We carried a large assortment of anime at our place, so the girls were pretty numerous. They knew we watched for this kind of behavior (and so did there parents, for the underage ones) and knew it was a safe place.

As to what you do to bring it on, Gilda.......you just be. Predators of this sort can sense things from the way you hold yourself, the way you move, the way you act. Little clues in your body language say 'victim'. I would personally suggest some self defense courses, even basic ones. Not only will they teach you what to do to protect yourself, they will teach you how to move, stand, and act in such a way that says you are not a victim.

Other martial artists see the opposite of this all the time. Even though I've gotten a crappy desk job and have put on almost 100 pounds in the last few years, if I walk into a dojo the sensei can tell I've been trained. It's just in how I move and hold myself.

That's the only idea I can come up with without having met you. I hope it helps...and more importantly, I hope this type of violation of you stops. Your personal space is yours, and him touching you like that is a violation, as you can see from your reaction.

Gilda, I'm not sure how often you get groped, sounds like a couple or more incidents, spread out over time. I deal with this on a regular basis. Always have. I don't believe for a second that the 'ass' pat is ever accidental. These are just too lingering, and don't feel like bumps.

Almost everytime I ride the transit i get the 'pat' - more in the summer. And if it is accidental, why are women less clumsy than men??? I've never had my breast groped, except for one dentist who rested his forearm along mine once along time ago.

I am very vigilant now, and it has become a challenge to try and ward off these rather pathetic attempts to touch me. I have a feeling that they think I am a person of minority who is shy and unwilling to either stand up for herself, or to complain. But I do both. One of the creepiest times was not a grope, but a sidle. i was at the grocery store, examining the cheese, and felt a warmth behind me. I turned around to find a stranger standing right behind me, pretending to look over my shoulder. He was almost right against me. I think he was smelling my hair, but if I moved back, I would have pressed right into him.

So it think these guys are opportunistic. They get off on that 'just one more chick' to add to their score. I just try not to become a notch in their staff.

To tell you what makes the difference between myself and other girls. I've been in some situations where I was dressed nearly the same as a girlfriend of mine. I tend to walk very erect, my chin level with the floor, my strides long (I do NOT have long legs - I just extend them fully), and my arms loose at my sides. When I notice someone looking at me or even 'sidling up' I decide if I like the interest or not and I respond accordingly IMMEDIATELY. I will either - if I like it - make eye contact, hold for the count or 3 or so and then let my gase slide down till my eyes close. If I do not like it and do not feel threatened by it I will look, hold the same gaze, blink and look just slightly to one side or the other of the person. If I adamantly do not find the interest in me positive then I will look at the person and hold their gaze sometimes for what feels like a long time but at least until they look away. It's a challange and I've never had anyone bother me after a look like that. I do not have to say anything. Still the way you hold your body while you make the stare matters a lot. Be sure you are standing erect and your back straight and head erect. Don't hold your hands hanging from wrists with your elbows bent. Either hold your hands tensed (very LOOSE fists even maybe) in front of you or hanging loose at your sides. Feet not tight together but more or less shoulder width apart. Place your non-dominant foot forward slightly. Just in general a fighting pose without looking too stilted. The body language says "Go away and if you don't I AM prepared to resist anything you would want to do.

I strongly believe that it's body language that almost ALWAYS draws or deters criminals to even be interested in a particular girl or guys to just want to pleasantly hit on a girl.

I have had guys pursue me like your slidler did. About 90% of the time though I have given them the "I am interested" look beforehand. When I have given the "challenge" look beforehand I have NEVER been approached in such a way.

Sheesh, don't guys just introduce themselves anymore? :rolleyes:

Seriously, I am sorry you (and others who have responded with similar experiences) have been treated in such a rude manner. I would also recommend learning martial arts and body language so you can prevent these types of violations, and react to them in a way that allows you to maintain your confidence and dignity.

I would not suggest letting these creeps get away with it. The more they get away with it, the more they are encouraged to keep doing it. Who knows if (or when) they will get more violent. They need to learn respect for other people's privacy and space, and consequences when they violate that privacy and space.

I've never been touched inappropriately by anyone, and since we both dress the same way and I don't have any real self-defense training I've got to chalk it up to a similar "don't fuck with me" attitude. I hang around in hobby and comic shops all the time, often alone, even go to Magic tournaments (always the only girl there) and maintain a nice two-foot sphere of personal space at all times.

Reanna's got it right about the body language. I recommend the book "Not an easy target" by Paxton Quigly, which will tell you everything you need to know about not getting messed with. It will also tell you a bunch of paranoid stuff that no one would really want to do, so be a filter, not a sponge--but the body language and positioning stuff is gold.

Finally, you need to seriously ask yourself WHY you just left after he did that. Someone with intact self-esteem should not have allowed this to happen and certainly should not have left without reprisal. Appropriate reactions could range from "Excuse me, that was unacceptable. Please leave now before I call security" to a slap in the face, but NO reaction is a little strange.

I have to agree with the body language and victim vibe... not so much that it's a victim vibe, it's that you come across as "nice", wouldn't hurt a fly... I know because I've had people mistake that in me.

I've been grabbed from behind, grabbed in the front (not the breast either...), even grabbed while I was walking down the street holding hands with my SO! Some of these guys I'm sure are only doing it to get a rise out of you... I make a point not to give them that satisfaction... normally I just call them a loser because they must feel that's the only way they can get anything.

It's going to happen every now and then, the thing I've decided is to not be a victim about it. They are scum and treating them as such is something that doesn't allow me to feel like a victim and gives me the power over them, even if that is just helping me to deal with it.

There are lots of ways people can "size up" other people... in this case, you may just come across at the type of person who will do nothing, and simply walk away. Since this is accurate, it can't be said that it's a baseless assumption.

Basically, if a guy looks at you with the intention of grabbing you, he's most often going to look at you and decide if he thinks he'll get away with it, or if you're more likely to mace him, put him on the ground, and rip his testicles off.

You seem like a really nice person, and a more "passive" personality is easier to pick out in a crowd, which is why you may feel "targeted" because it happens more to you than others you know.

The world's full of assholes... next time, give him a hello to disarm him, and then just knee him in the junk. You'll be glad you did.

Gilda, am I correct in stating that you have been seriously victimized by men in the past? Not a bump, brush, or inappropriate touching, but physical assault? If this is true, you may carry yourself in a "fearful" way when alone and in the presence of men.
You are a petite, attractive woman and sexual bullies (especially one that weighs more than twice you do) could make that kind of move knowing that you won't retaliate. It might be something worth bringing up with your counselor.

I think it would be difficult to assume a fearless posture when you have learned there is a good reason to be afraid. But I think it is good advice to make the attempt. And as everyone else has said, you and how you carry yourself is not the issue. There are creeps in this world that prey on women.

You are an intelligent woman, Gilda, and I am confident that when the shock is over you will know where to place the blame.

Despite the fact that there must have been some sort of attraction on the 'groper's' part to choose to get personal with Gilda AND that I actually used the word 'attractive,' if you still managed to misunderstand what I said...

I was using the transitive form of the word. What I meant to imply was the 'groper' presumed that she was unwilling or unable to defend against his advances.

Yes, like what most people have already said in this thread, body language is the determinate.
I detest men like that, those men that think they have the right to touch you. They need a good slap upside the head, and some classes on public appropriateness.
I'm like Grace, I give off a "stay the fuck away from me or you'll never reproduce" glare to those edgy people out in public. I don't give them any chances, and wouldn't trust them with anything. Then again, its a must-have if you have even been a high school student going to class downtown in my city. You need guts, and a person to come along with you.
/threadjack
I think you should ask Grace to teach you that look of hers, it might help prevent groping and the like in public places.

Thank you for the support.
 

This was a lot more than I was expecting. I was mostly just venting. I've read everything carefully, so if I don't respond directly to you, it isn't because I'm ignoring you.

I've always kinda considered comic shops and hobby stores my territory. Yes, I'm aware that I am usually the only woman in these places when I'm there. That's something a woman tends to notice rather quickly regardless of the situation. What I don't get is why the guys don't just talk to me. There's pretty much only one reason why I'd be in those places, and that's because I have the same interests that they do. I'm a nerd just like they are. I mean, damn, I've got a Shrinking Violet avatar and list my location as Imsk. I tend to set off geek radar from blocks away. So if they'd take a few seconds, they'd realize that I'm just like they are. I'm a socially awkward nerd, too.

Gail Simone calls this the "Women in Refrigerators" syndrome. Essentially, the idea is that women in comics tend to be used as plot devices to motivate the men. There are some really good writers out there who actively avoid this, Gail, Alan Moore, Mark Waid, Kurt Busiek, but it does still seem to be the trend. There are several good comics starring strong female characters, but even the best of them, Birds of Prey, only sells about 40k monthly, about 1/4 of the best selling monthly book (Superman/Batman). So I see what you're saying. But surely these guys had mothers and sisters and went to schools where there were girls?

Gilda

Heh. The subscription service I use operates out of North Carolina.

At my local comic shop, there's sometimes a couple of members of my comic club there, and they're a bit protective of me.

Probably. I unfortunately still don't have a good handle on how to handle my emotions in such a situation, and I don't want to overreact. I know that what you say wouldn't be an overreaction, but it's hard to know that in the moment.

Gilda

Yeah, I get the sidle up nearby a lot, and not just in comic and hobby shops. I just don't understand why if they're interested they don't just talk to me. There's the obvious avenue of conversation, and I'm a nerd just like they are. I even have the black plastic rimmed nerd glasses.

Thank you.

Gilda

I don't doubt that you consider it your territory too. :) I'm just saying that people tend to be more comfortable with pushing social boundaries in their own social areas.

Nah, if I could be intimidated into not going to a comic shop, it would have happened long ago. I'm used to the stares and the sidling. Fortunately, most of the time, one or two of the guys from my comic club are there, and they're kinda protective. I think I may be the closest thing to a girlfriend any of them have. The owner of the comic store also keeps an eye out when he's up front, but most of the time he tends to hang out in back playing card games until someone has something to buy.

I won't, however be going into that particular hobby shop again. If that's the kind of person who hangs out there it isn't the kind of place I want to give my business to.

I was half joking about scaring them off by saying hello. I do that just to be friendly and start a conversation, and don't really understand why, a little over half the time anyway, they tend to take off. I can't really see how I could intimidate anyone who's twice my size.

He seemed to be in his late teens or early 20's. I didn't stay long enough to get a good look.

I'm tired, and it's time for me to go to bed, so I'll be back tomorrow to catch up.

Gilda

It triggers a flight or fight response in guys when an attractive woman in a comic book store says hi. Incoherent babbling and running away soon follow. If they stick around, it's a lot of mumbling and stammering. Seen it a bunch of times. :lol:

First of all, good for you. I know some that would use such an unfortunate situation as an excuse to withdraw further into themselves.

Second, you seem to be under the impression that 'intimidation' is all about size.

Most geek guys are intimidated by women. Doubly so by geek girls. Your average geek guys are socially inept anyway and don't know how to talk to a girl, they probably want a girlfriend but don't know how to approach a woman. And if a girl is friends with a geek guy chances are he likes her but doesn't know how to tell her and doesn't have the confidence to. A geeky girl is the ultimate dream, she can be your gf AND play D&D with you.

I know because I used to be like that, grew out of it but many guys don't. I could name several that I sometimes hang out with.

As for one of those guys being a sex predator, it's probably unusual but I can see how it would happen. They're afraid to talk to girls because they lack the confidence to, its frustrating so they start wanting that power trip that sex predators get off on. Could be mentally disturbed as well. Hopefully this guy is not a rapist in training.

Funny thing is, if you had said something I'm sure at least 5 guys would have stepped up to protect you. Geek guys may be shy but also tend to have this secret protector/hero complex when it comes to women.

Girl, you need to learn how to get loud when someone assaults you in public. Sometimes all it takes is a loud "What the hell do you think you''re doing?" or a "Get your hand off me!" to put the invader in his place. The business owner should be made aware of this, too.

Don't let someone decide it's OK to ruin your enjoyment.

This has happened to me and until I realized what I was doing, I was constantly assaulted by guys. It hasn't happened much since I have been working on self-confidence.

However, I have a similar situation at my job. There is a woman who would 'accidently' grab my breast. At first, I thought that maybe it truly was an accident. She would trip and try to catch herself, but miss my arm. But, then she would get to where she would point to something on my computer screen and brush/linger past my breast. The last time she did it she was admiring my necklace, of course I think it was more my breasts. I started to avoid her. It was a very uncomfortable situation because it didn't seem like enough to complain about, but is was noticeable. One day I was talking to another colleague and this woman had been doing the same thing to her.

I am not overly sensitive of being touched. I am good at being the victim and also thinking that maybe I did do something to provoke it. I can be quite friendly (which to most equals flirty) and maybe I do ask for it. However, part of me says that it doesn't matter, I was violated and that is wrong.

As for why you, Gilda, and not Gracie or Sissy, I am not sure if there is a simple answer to that. You said that you were alone and Sissy went off with a group. I think that alone women get triggered more than women in a group. I was assaulted in a library because I was alone. I think that any girl that would have been down there alone would have met the same fate that I did. Circumstances, self-esteem, body language, and other factors can be taken into account. But sometimes, men are just jerks and can't control themselves. You unfortunately have just been in the wrong place at the wrong time imo.

I second that. If anything, you may just tend to be alone when you're in public places more often than Grace and Sissy are. I've been groped by strangers more times than I would like to count, but I can hardly remember a time when it happened to me while I was in a group of people. That said, it doesn't make it any better to have a rational explanation for why some fuckwad stranger would grope you, and you shouldn't have to worry about using the buddy system everywhere you go. Some scum just like to work in dark alleys and others like to work in well-lit shops at the mall. Scum is scum. I'm sorry the cretin shook you up so much.

I'm assuming you're referring to when dealing with other adults in an informal situation, and when I'm by myself here. It's a lot different if it's a formal situation such as in class or talking to a parent, and it's quite a bit different when I'm with Grace or Sissy.

In whatever way is most comfortable in the given situation. It isn't something that I've analyzed.
Couldn't tell you. It isn't something that I think about.

I tend to take short steps. I wear heels most days and that's "trained" my walk to accommodate.

It depends. If it's a guy, and it's a social situation, I tend to look away pretty quickly. I don't want to give them the impression that I'm interested and want to flirt.

I don't know. I'll look wherever I was looking before hand. Probably down. It isn't something that I think about.

When I'm by myself, I never want to flirt. Sometimes when I'm with Grace, because then I know it's safe, and she always makes it clear to the guy or guys that they have no chance whatsoever with either of us, but that doesn't always keep them from wanting to flirt. In those situations, though, I tend to just follow her lead.

I know I'm not sending any signals that say I'm interested. Some guys obviously misread them, as I do get hit on sometimes, but I really don't mind the casual "are you interested" type of inquiry. That's kind of flattering.

I understood what he meant and wasn't offended.

Probably. There's not really any way for me to watch myself the way I do her, though. I assume what differences there are are due to her being an athlete and highly skilled martial artist.

More to come.

Gilda

Gilda, it's not YOUR fault...

I highly doubt you're sending off 'vibes', i don't think it's anything you're doing, besides the fact that you were born an unusually attractive and lovely person... i think it's merely that you are a very gorgeous and petite woman, Men who grope often target very petite and attractive women, simple as that.

That guy was COMPLETELY in the wrong and you could have filed assault charges against him if you so choose. It's Never okay to touch, ever. And i'm so sorry that he did that to you :( :icare:

Sweetpea

I was upset and wanted to get out of there because it felt unsafe. The guy was twice my size and I was no physical threat to him whatsoever. You're right abouit my lacking self-esteem in such a situation.

I did react. I left, getting myself out of what seemed at the time to be a potentially dangerous situation.

Yes. I was regularly beaten by two of my boyfriends.

It's been a topic in the past and will be in the future.

Gilda

I have been poked in my breasts in crowded buses/trains (elbows tend to get in the way) but I have NEVER been groped without my explicit permission. I am a very assertive person when I am alone - I travel quite a bit, and walk just about all the time like I know EXACTLY where I'm going. As for the beauty thing, I know I'm not drop dead gorgeous, and it is extremely rare for me to be hit on or approached by guys I do not know. I don't know how much of that is based on my demeanor or just their lack of interest to begin with, but I'm really frustrated with the fact that some people can not remember simple decent social manners.

I'm not sure why this is in tilted sexuality. This is more of a tilted living thing. Reading the title I thought that it was some sort of fetish...

But anyways -this happened to me: 6'4" 240ish lbs. The place was a bar that I go to sometimes. The culprit was a woman I will refer to as "old beer-gut woman". Being the nice guy that I am -I rejected her advances -I asked her not to touch me. She responded by suggesting that I was gay.

My answer is simply: Just because I'm not into you does not make me gay. She told me that she was insulted. I said that she shouldn't be insulted -that I was flattered by her attention but that there is no nice way to put it: that I was not attracted to her.

To this day old beer-gut woman remains one person that I avoid.

I've seen your pictures in tilted portraits and I think you're a pretty girl. That said, I don't think it was so much that as this asshole had somehow assesed you as a viable target for his disgusting behavior.

Yes, you can do things to not be assesed that way, like look approaching men in the eye and hold the gaze for a few seconds, but don't take that to mean that you have any sort of culpability here. This asshole victimized you, and there are no two ways about it.

I don't think I've ever been in a comic store, but location doesn't matter, this behavior is simply not acceptable.

A suggestion: if you are groped again in a store, say as loudly as you can without screaming "Get your hands off my " insert name of body part here ", asshole!" and move away. This should draw help from the clerical staff. You should also call police from the scene and file a report. This type of guy is a sexual predator and if you stop him you may be stopping him from going on to bigger things... like forcible rape, for example.

Many people have been suggesting taking martial arts classes.

That is something that I've tried and it was a complete bust. Grace, as I said, is a highly skilled martial artist, and tried to teach me some things, but her teaching me isn't something that tends to work well, whether it's parallel parking or martial arts or any of the other dozen things she does better than I do.

I tried a class with her sensei, but that didn't work either. In theory it helps to build self-confidence and self-esteem, but in practice it involves hitting and eventually being hit, throwing others to the ground and being thrown, and I do not want to be involved in that on either side of the equation.

As to why I don't just look the guys in the eye and say "Hi" more often, it's complicated, and I'm not sure why I do it sometimes and not others. It depends upon how threatening the guy seems; the more threatening, the longer I wait, the less likely I am to do it.

I think mostly, as a defense mechanism, walking away is much easier, as it doesn't involve challenging someone who is almost always bigger and stronger than I am, to whom I post no physical threat. It depends on where I am that day and that particular time, and whether I'm with someone or there's someone I know nearby. And there is no way I'm going to hit someone that much bigger and stronger than I am. I know from experience that challenging someone physically when you cannot back that up is just asking to get hurt, and I'd much rather deal with having been a little intimidated than with having been a little intimidated and having gotten hurt physically. Better safe with a little regret than hurt with a lot of regret. Getting the guy in trouble isn't worth getting hurt. It isn't always the same guy, so challenging guy A isn't going to prevent the next guy from grabbing my ass.

I know that this probably doesn't make sense logically, but that's how it feells. I generally avoid confrontation and conflict whenever possible, avoid risk. I stay in my comfort zone. I know that's not how many people would like to live their lives, but it works for me. I spend much of my teens and early 20's taking chances and believe me, playing it safe is much better, at least for me.

I'll have to actively ready my "Hello" defense when I'm out on my own. Having to think defensively, though, takes a lot of the enjoyment out of the situation. You get the anxiety of the potential encounter, even if one doesn't occur.

I think this is why I tend to stay at home when Grace can't come with me. When she's with me, I don't have to concern myself with safety, as I know she'll take care of that. Sissy thinks I rely on Grace too much, but she understimates her. Grace really doesn't mind being there for me in that way, or if she does, she's never shown it.

One of the stupid aspects of this is that Sissy feels guilty for having deserted me that day, which is ridiculous. It isn't like she'd have gone into the hobby shop with me anyway. That place creeps her out.

Anyway, thank you all for the feedback.

I know I need to be more assertive. I remember watching a tv show with my dad about 10 or 15 years ago with a couple of big boxers. Sugar Ray Robinson was fighting some really intimidating guy named Marvin something. The sportscaster, a guy named Larry Merchant (his name I can remember, but the other boxer, no; weird how memory works isn't it) interviewed Sugar Ray, who was a big underdog, and who said he knew exactly how to beat Marvin. After the interview, Merchant was talking to another guy and the other guy said (paraphrased, "Sure, he knows how to beat Marvin. I know how to beat him, too. Everyone knows how to do it, but knowing and doing are two very different things."*

I know that being more assertive would help me in that particular situation, but knowing this doesn't always help me do it. Sometimes, but not always. Thank you for your feedback. Sometimes it just helps to vent.

Gilda

*We watched the fight and the Sugar Ray guy showboated and danced around while Marvin beat him to a pulp, and Sugar Ray won the fight. I really don't understand boxing.

A few people have said a martial arts class, but I think a dedicated women's self-defense class is more useful. Martial arts takes a degree of ability before it's effective, but a dedicated self-defense course will give you some techniques to specifically fight off attackers. Granted, you don't want to be in that situation, but having the knowledge is empowering in its own right.

I would have to agree with FngKestrel. If you've tried martial arts, and they simply aren't for you, you may want to look into basic self defense classes. If that still isn't something you want to pursue, then just work on a pose.

Come up with an aggressive, no nonsense way to stand and look at someone that lets them know you're not to be fucked with.

Besides, doing that kind of thing in front of a mirror can be fun.

And Gilda, I have to go along with what many have said here, and I should have said earlier. I sincerely hope nothing like this happens to you ever again.

Comic book stores need girls hanging around in them for two very important reasons:

1. Women tend to enjoy better written comic books in general. Their purchases help influence the writers to write better books.
2. Cute girls hanging around tend to remind the boys to bathe more often.

:thumbsup:

Not all about size. Jet Li is about my size, 5' 6" 130 lbs., and I doubt many people of any size intimidate him. Bruce Lee was about my size.

So I realize that it isn't all about size.

But the vast majority of the time, yeah, size and ability to inflict harm are what lead to "intimidation." There's reason most of the bullies are bigger kids and bouncers are big guys. There's a reason why women don't fight men in the ring, and why there are weight classes in boxing and wrestling. Size and strength make a big difference.

Gilda

The difference in size makes a huge difference in your sense of vulnerability. I am 5'1" and about 110 lbs. Walking away would have been my choice as well, when faced with an ogre of that size. If I knew the proprietor, I would have walked up to her/him for protection, but that wasn't the case in Gilda's situation.

The so-called "victim vibe" is a lack of the "don't fuck with me" vibe. I was always picked on in school by litle shits who were a lto smaller than me because they knew I wouldn't defend myself. I would always walk with my head down, slouched over, and arms crossed. I finally figured out that standing up, holding my arms and shoulders back a bit, and lifitng my chin up gave off an air of confidence that stopped would-be bullies.

Next time some creep does something like that, all you have to do is throw your elbow into his throat with all your weight behind it. Fighting back after running for a long time is one of the most gratifying things you can do.

As far as defending yourself in a public place -I'd leave that to the police. Get a cell phone and learn '911'. If the guy is truly inappropriate -he'd be inappropriate to the police or at least you'd put him on their radar.

Of all the suggestions here and those that I've made, it does not matter what you do when you are minding your own business, it is not right that these men approach you in such a way. Nothing a woman does should invite that kind of touch unless she outright flashes a guy or something. When you are minding your own business and they do something like this THEY are pathetic, desperate creatures who couldn't get a girlfriend if they tried.

I second what MrSelfDetruct said. You cannot look at a situation and leave whether or not you're victimized up to the person who may or may not decide to victimize you. People are not nice--why leave that decision in their hands? If you know going into any situation that no one is going to fuck with you beyond a certain point or it's on, then people won't push that line. If you have no line, they will see that and take as much as you will give them.

It may not be in your personality to be aggressive, but don't you feel indignant when someone tries to compromise your personal space like that? Fuck the consequences--you need to protect your integrity and peace of mind and if someone is seriously jeopardizing that...they had it coming.

Only if it gets physical. It's the build up, it's the first few moments before the attacker settles on his course of action that are the most important. Just take a look at animals in the wild. The hair on a dog's back will rise, cats lay back their ears, bears will stand up on their hind legs and rattlesnakes...well, rattle, all in an attempt to get someone/something to leave them alone.

The point I'm trying to make is that you don't actually have to be physically intimidating to be intimidating. It's body position, stance, mannerisms. The guy who groped you had no idea if you could actually kick the dog snot out of him or not. Your mannerisms told him it wasn't likely and he played the odds. You don't have to be this great, big, daring do-er, braving the rapids and forging boldly ahead, but you should be able to, at the very least, tread a little water once in a while.

I hate to keep harping on this, but it's very important. I used to be a jack-of-all-trades (painting, fixing things, lawnwork, etc...) at a woman's shelter. Sometimes I think I've heard all the horrible stories a person can stand to hear in one lifetime. I'd hate to hear another one.

By the way, the biggest bully in my high school was a guy named 'Brad.' 'Brad' stood all of 5'2" with his leather 'biker' boots on. Even I, at a foot taller and 100 lbs heavier, watched where I stepped when he was around. ;)

MrSelfDestruct' s quote was simply the closest of several suggesting that my getting violent in that situation would have been an appropriate response; I'm not trying to pick on him, just using it as a representative example.

I'm not going to hit somebody solely because he touched me inappropriately. It might make him back off, or he might have hit me back. If he hit me back, I'd be in a hell of a lot worse situation than I started in. By walking away, I accomplished the same goal as getting him to back off. I put distance between us. I see no possible positive outcome for me that would come from hitting him.

All of that is after the fact analysis, though. In the moment, all I know is that I don't want to be near this guy, he's a lot bigger than I am, and he's already shown that he's aggressive. All that tells me the best thing to do is get the hell away from him, and in this case, it was a very effective strategy.

Nothing I did at that point would have made that feeling of having been violated go away. I needed Grace for that. All that escalating the situation would have done was draw the attention of everyone around us. As it is, he knows he got away with something, but that's it. Unless it's a story he'd want to share with the other guys hanging out there, in which case my hitting him would only have sped the discovery, or I suppose have made it a better story. I don't know how these guys think. Maybe this is the kind of thing that they like to share when they're talking about girls.

I'm rambling again. In essense, given fight or flight and an opponent capable of putting me in a world of hurt, I'll choose flight every time.

Gilda

I agree. Getting violent then would have served no purpose, as I've said above. I don't think calling the police would have helped things any, except to add to my feelings of helplessness and embarassment. Calling 911 at that point would, I think, have been an abuse of the system. There was no emergency that required police intervention. It was over already. I'd already fixed the immediately problem by leaving, and at that point it was just a matter of dealing with my feelings, and there's nothing the police could have done to help me there.. I needed Grace for that.

Gilda

Okay, so here's my extremely fucked up bad mood assessment of the situation.

First off, let me flatter you and/or myself briefly by telling you that there is no excuse for that sort of behaviour and had I been present at said event this fellow would have been made well aware of it. Is it right? No, not in the slightest, but I have a temper and will not put up with that sort of disrespectful behaviour from anyone towards anyone, especially those who seem less capable of defending themselves. And before anyone says anything about it, it's not gender specific because personal respect isn't a gender specific issue. But yeah. I was cracking my knuckles just reading your post. Not tolerable in my books at all.

And having said that, might I suggest you look into self defence classes, not with an eye towards using them but more for the knowledge that you can if you have to? Grace likely does very much have a 'don't fuck with me mojo'. I'm 5'11" and 160 lbs and I have previously stared down a guy nearly twice my size based on the same thing. Confidence shows through and if you're confident in your abilities to defend yourself, people are going to assume you can defend yourself. The catch is that you really have to believe it, which means you actually have to be able to follow through if it becomes necessary. Odds on are that you'd never use the techniques they show you, but knowing how to is all it takes.

Failing that, try to have an escort where possible. It's terrible that you'd need such a deterrent and I hate what it says about my fellow men, but if that's what it takes, so be it. Your personal safety is paramount and this sort of assault is a breach of that.

I do my best not to. I avoid dangerous situations. I just went out to get myself a Mr. Pibb. There's a 7-11 about a block away, half that if I walk through the alley behind my home. Did I walk there? Hell no. I got in my car and drove to MacDonalds and went through the drive through.

When I go grocery shopping late at night, or in the very early morning (the best time by far) I park in a well lit area, and always have someone help me out with my groceries and load them in my car.

I minimize the threat when I can. I don't put myself in high risk situations.

Looking at a display case in a crowded mall isn't a high risk situation. That guy wasn't going to get violent with me unless I escalated it by getting violent with him first, and who knows what would have happened then?

Nonsense. Did you know that most police officers who are killed in the line of duty are killed with their own gun? Most victims of rape fight back, hard. Once someone has chosen to disregard the basic rules of society, it's easy to cross the line, even to the point of disregarding their own safety.

Now this is hardly attempted murder or rape, but by touching me inappropriately, he'd already crossed the line. If I'd escalated the incident to violence, I'd just have been inviting him to up the ante to hitting me, and getting hit is very, very high on my list of things to avoid.

Of course. I'd think that this thread would be ample evidence of that.

I never say F--- the consequences, especially when it compes to getting hurt. The potential price is much too high. Getting hurt further by getting violent and thus provoking him to do the same would not have made things better for me.

I can see no positive outcome from having gotten violent with this guy. Logically, the best possible result would have been that he'd have backed off and I'd have drawn attention to us. Walking away accomplished the same thing without the risk of physical harm to myself, and without the attendant embarassment.

And I can prevent this from happening again by simply not going back there. I don't see any way in which violence would have improved things.

Gilda

My mannerisms merely reflect the truth. I'm no threat to a guy that size. If knowing that is reflected in my mannerisms, then there's not a whole lot I can do about that, as I can't just decide to disregard those facts. Regardless of how I behaved, one look at me would have told him I'm substantially smaller and weaker than he is. I was wearing a sleeveless top.

Well, that's really apples and oranges, but I get your point, and I agree.

Rather than learn to project an artificial attitude, I just don't put myself in risky situations. Being able to project that attitude my reduce the chance of becoming a victim, but not being in the situation in the first place eliminates it entirely.

I don't go to late movies alone. I've missed midnight premieres when Grace wasn't available to go with me. When I grocery shop late at night I have someone carry and load my groceries for me. If it's dark when I'm done at the gym, I request an escort to my car. I don't go to convenience stores at night. I pair up with Grace or Sissy whenever I can. I actively avoid any situation that looks or feels dangerous, and take my protection (Grace) with me whenever possible.

My mistake here was that I considered this a safe place because it was a well lit storefront in the mall and it was daylight hours. I now know better and will avoid it. Problem solved.

If the only solutions is to prepare myself for a violent confrontation every time I'm out in public, then I'd much rather not. The whole purpose of going to the hobby store was to have fun. Going in there prepared for a violent confrontation might have scared the guy off, or might not have, but it certainly would have sucked all of the fun out of the situation, which would have defeated the purpose of going there in the first place. I'd rather just enjoy myself.

Gilda

The bolded part here seems to be the key.

There's an ancient myth that seems relevant. A great treasure was located at the end of a very long canyon. The entrance to the canyon was guarded by two large stone statues. These statues were magical, and would crush anyone attempting to go between them who feared them, who believed in their magic. If a man could pass between them without fearing they would crush him, they would remain still. One of the bad guys tries to pass between them, has a moment of doubt, and is crushed. The hero manages to pass them without incident.

This has never made sense to me. You cannot simply unknow something. Once you know the magic statues are going to crush you, you have given up any possibility of passing them unharmed.

I happen to know for a fact that most men would find me easy prey, that the average man with no training is physically capable of causing me great physical harm with very little risk of serious harm to himself, and there's simply no way for me to unknow that, because it's an empirical fact. I can't project an aura of confidence because I'm not confident in such a situation, and I'm not confident in such a situation because I know that I'm easy prey. And that lack of confidence is part of what makes me easy prey. I get that, I understand how it works.

But until you can change the fact that I'm easy prey for a predator, the rest of that logic stays in place. The only way to really fix the situation is not to be in it in the first place, and as I've said, I don't put myself in those situations anymore.

The incident at the mall was completely different. There was no danger of my being attacked or raped, and I had no reason to suspect that anyone in that store would try to fondle me. Now that I know better, I'll simply not go in there any more. Sure, I'm missing out on something that I enjoy, but if I had to go in there tying to monitor the movements of the other customers and being prepared to defend myself, I wouldn't be enjoying myself anyway. In either case, that place is ruined for me, so I might as well just avoid the bad feelings in the first place and not go there.

Think of the Battle of Long Island. Yes, the Patriots defended themselves against an overwhelming force of British soldiers for a while, but when it became apparent that there was no chance to win, they retreated under the cover of fog. By retreating from a superior foe, they lived to fight again.

When faced with a superior foe whom you know will win, retreat is by far the better option, the one I'm best suited for, and the one I chose here.

I do.

Well, I was upset and had my feeling hurt, but safety was never really an issue. It would have been if I'd hit him and he hadn't backed off but instead retaliated. By handling things the way I did, I protected myself as best I could. Given my physical prowess, running away is by far the best option in a potential physical confrontation.

Gilda

Gilda - that you weren't physically harmed doesn't nullify this as an assault. Emotional and mental harm are as bad if not often worse than physical damage. Cuts heal, bones set, mental scars last much, much longer.

I'm glad you do what you can to protect yourself, but the whole idea of an aura of confidence isn't something that you can switch on and off. It is actually possible to train yourself to perceive something to be true while knowing that it isn't (this is how people are able to manipulate lie detectors to their advantage) but it takes a lot of training and practice. The more practical course is to make it true, if it's feasible.

Risk assessment is part of self defence and it isn't an active process. Or rather, it is at first but with practice becomes second nature, so that you're able to keep track of the people around you and identify potential threats without even thinking about it. Were someone to approach my girlfriend in the manner that slob did to you all of the alarm bells would've gone off and I would have interceded immediately to prevent any potential problems (have in the past, as far as that goes). But this is digression and doesn't help you.

I'm sorry that this creep ruined that place for you. I can't stand cretins like him. Here's hoping you feel better at least. Should you ever find yourself in the Toronto region, drinks are on me.

One last note.

I talked with Grace and Sissy about this.

Grace is with those who think I should have clocked the guy. It's an old argument with us.

Sissy, who of late has been attending Al-Anon (a support group for adult children of alcoholics) thinks I'm "co-dependant" and Grace is my "enabler". I fail to see how depending upon others for support when they are willing to offer that support is a bad thing, and Grace offering me physical protection is hardly comperable to alcoholism.

They both think it's strange that I have little trouble controlling 25 middle-schoolers or running a college classroom, but no self-confidence in public places with strangers. The difference seems pretty obvious to me.

As a teacher, I'm granted an automatic measure of authority that isn't present when I'm say, at the mall. I have the power to potentially ruin or make a student's day, a power I don't have in other situations. I have borrowed authority in the form of the principal/department head. That's also not present in everyday situations. There's no way to translate the self-confidence I have in the classroom in either place into other situations.

I have a lot to talk to my therapist about tomorrow.

Thank you everyone for the feedback. It is very much appreciated, and it makes me feel better just being able to explore my thoughts and feelings here. Even if it doesn't actually make the situation any better, it has helped me to feel better, and to understand, at least a little bit, how the guy knew to target me.

However I still think that for me, the better solution is simply to stay off thier radar than to try to put up a facade of confidence I don't actually feel. You can't hit a target that stays out of range.

Gilda

The bad thing isn't that you depend on a willing source of support, the problem is that you are either unwilling, or emotionally and mentally incapable of acting without that support. If Grace were abducted by aliens tonight and not returned for a month, do you feel that you would be capable of living your life in the same way without her presence, or would you have to make significant changes? There's a difference between accepting support and relying on it.
The only authority you have is the power and control that they yield to you. if your middle school class were to turn against you, you would be more utterly powerless to stop them on your own than you would be to stop a lone attacker. The fact that they have been conditioned by society to respect your authority is the only thing keeping you from being harmed by a mob that would rather be doing just about anyhting but sitting through another day of classes. An attacker (and that's what this guy was) does not yield any amount of power or respect to you, and therefore is able to comfortably violate your presonal space and assault you.
Considering the fact that you are a petite woman, many attackers would be able to close in on you fairly easily. What you need to do at the very least is not to fight when you can escape the situation, but perpare yourself for a situation in which fighitng may be your only choice. You say that most police officers are killed with their own guns , but civilians who fight back with guns are more than ten times less likely to be harmed than someone who offers no resistance. I don't know where your statistic that most rape victims fight back comes from, but wihtout fighting back you have no chance at all.

I am writing this from the point of view of someone who was picked on and beaten up repeatedly throughout middle school. After the worst incident, more of my left side was bruised from being kicked than was left unharmed. During high school, I earne dthe nickname "the punching bag" because I never fought back. One day, someone jumped on my back, and deciding that I had takne enough abuse, I flipped him over onto his back, knocking the wind out of him. To this day, the confidence I gained by knowing that I am capable of fighting back has helped me to keep my head high, and not once (excluding violent mosh pits) have I been the target of an assault of any kind. Only a few dozen people saw me fight back, yet nobody has touched me since. By developing this confidence, even if you simply take someo'ne hand off of your body and firmly tell them to stop, you can feel that confidence that you do not yet possess. The more often a petite, timid woman fights back in public, the clearer the message will be to predators that their actions will not be tolerated.

I don't want you to be a victim ever again. If we ever meet, I want to see you standing tall and proud, knowing that you do not need help from anyone to live your life without any fear of being a victim. If you can say to someone who tires to grope you, "Don't ever do that again," and take his wrist and move his hand away from you, you will feel the confidence you need, and you'll feel a sense of elation knowing that you can fend for yourself.

Well, let's cover what your doing right:

Great. Let's run with this. Try chatting with a few people in the store before you go browsing. Especially the clerk, owner, manager, etc. Ever hear that you should be good friends with your neighbors so that they'll be more likely to call for help if something's a miss. Same principal. Once you've gained rapport with the staff and regulars, they'll keep an eye on you. And if the sidlers notice that your being looked after, they'll walk off. ^_^

Awesome. I know this technique too. In fact, I taught it to my speach class. I still have it typed up in Word. Learn it. Like you said, it doesn't take much effort. And besides, no matter how big they are, the body has a lot of soft spots. Like the eyes. *_^

You should have punched him when you had the chance. You'd feel a lot better about things, I'm sure.

I've seen this before too. I may have already told about this incident, but it won't hurt to mention it again.

I was in a subway station in Boston. Bunch of people were scattered about waiting for the train, nothing unusual.

This group of kids (Roxbury isn't far away) comes down the stairs and starts eyeing people. I give them this shit-eating grin (try it, please!); they move on.

Until they get to the bench. There are three people on the bench. They grab the purse from the middle one, a woman, and do the tug-of-war thing with it, get it, and run. The people on either side of her didn't do anything. Maybe they were just slow on the uptake, I can't say.

When I got back from chasing these assholes, I heard her (victim) say that she'd just finished replacing the stuff from the last time this happened! (sigh)

GRRRR
 

Well, I hope next time you dont just walk away. Do something about it. Perhaps call the security people over... embarrass him (atleast!)
The other day I was walking along Pier 39... (San Fran Awesome) and 3 teenage kids came running right by me, hands out.. smacking my rear quite hard. I was in shock for a good minute or so. If they weren't running, they would have been laying flat very quickly. I would have grabbed the nearest man available and kindly asked the favor.

I dont think hitting him would be the best answer. I wouldnt take being hit too well, but then again there is NO WAY IN HELL I would ever even consider doing that to someone! I have a little more respect than that (okay, a lot more).

You should have given him a huge tounge lashing, just take control of the situation and use you're mind to fight him.

That sounds like a punching, speaking from someone who spends time in a comic book shop thats over the line. I know there are ALOT of socially inept and awkward people in there buts that no excuse or free inventation to grope you. In ANY situation thats not even cool, so you should have just laid him flat acrossed the face..

This happened to me when I was 15. You know how teenaged boys can be. I turned around and slapped him so hard I thought I heard something snap. It was in front of his friends and I think it was enough to embrass him into never doing something like that again. Being prepared to be aggressive in a situation like that helps. And I also think it can help cut these petty "men"down to size.

In certain situations, this is true. I don't really think it's a bad thing, though. Some people need more support than others in certain areas. Grace can't cook to save her life, while I happen to be quite good at it. I provide her with support in one way, she provides me with support in another. It's not a 50-50 thing, as she'd function without me a lot better than I would without her, but she doesn't seem to mind that I get more of the relationship than she does. It's a good system for us.

Of course I'd have to make major changes. She is my wife, my life mate, the love of my life. Her absense would make a profound difference in most areas of my life. I think most people would say the same of their spouses.

I agree completely. In the classroom, I begin with the authority automatically granted to my position, and can build on that. The position I occupy gives me the power to help or harm them. I start with a foundation on which to build.

As an individual in the everyday world, I don't have any authority automatically granted me, nor the power to help or harm others to any great degree. The tools I use to maintain order in my classroom, authority, power, and that most of the kids like me and enjoy my class, don't exist anywhere else other than my home, so there's no way to transfer the confidence I feel in that setting to others where I'm not in a position of authority and have very little power.

Or even better, avoid being in a situation which would require me to defend myself. You don't need to be able to handle a risky situation if you don't put yourself in that situation in the first place.

I wasn't debating the effectiveness of fighting back vs. offering no resistance or the effectiveness of guns as defensive weapons. The post to which I was responding was claiming that if you have a mental line that you won't allow others to cross without retaliation, they won't cross it. Taking a police officer's gun from him is a pretty obvious line that no cop in the world is going to allow an attacker to cross unmolested, and is done with the likely consequence being death or at least getting shot, yet it still happens.

That's wonderful. I have no idea what a mosh pit is, but if going there is likely to result in an assault, the obvious solution to me is don't go there.

I'm glad you dealt with your situation. I've developed a way of dealing with mine that works for me. Avoid the risk, retreat when I can't.

That message already exists, it permeates our society at all levels. The guy who puts his hand on a woman's butt or breast has already demonstrated that he believes that the rules of society against sexual assault don't apply to him. He's already demonstrated a fundamental disregard for the rules of society and shown that he's dangerous. I'm simply not physically equipped to deal with people like that on a physical level, and that scares me.

Does that make me a coward? Probably, which is why I'd make a really poor soldier or police officer or even paramedic.

Me neither. The best way I can think of to do that is not to go alone to places where that risk exists. That's a small price to pay for feeling secure.

Sure it would be nice to feel secure everywhere like I do when I'm in one of my comfort zones, at home or at school or out with Grace, but that's not going to be happening anytime soon if ever, so I just have to live with things the way they are.

I can see that, and you're probably right, and for what it's worth, my therapist agrees with you that this is the best response. Firmly erect a barrier with my words, actions, and attitude without escalating the physical aspect of the encounter.

He also suggested, as Grace and Sissy have, that I try to transfer my attitude from my classes to other situations. Treat a boy like this as if he were on of my seventh graders, most of whom are bigger than I am.

I'm just not in a place where I'm able to do that right now.

Gilda

That's an awful lot of work to have to put in just to be able to shop in a store.

My goal when I go shopping is generally to be invisible. The ideal place is where everyone leaves me alone until I'm ready to buy. Chatting up the other people in the store would suck all the fun out of shopping, which would defeat the purpose of going into such a place.

I know it. Actually using it in a high stress situation like this would take the presense of mind to remember how it works, and a level of physical confidence to actually apply it, neither of which I currently posess.

Gilda

This comes down to the whole authority thing I talked about earlier. The only authority I posess in that situation is the authority all people in our society have over our own bodies, and that had already been violated.

In addition to which, doing so whould have garnered the attention of everyone nearby, which is the opposite of what I want. It's embarrassing enough that it happened at all without advertising it to everyone standing nearby.

Gilda

One last note.

I got into to see my therapist today and talk about what happened, and he had much the same advice as many of the people in the thread were giving me--don't behave like a victim, erect firm barriers, try to project an aura of confidence even if you don't feel it, etc.

He also gently pointed out that several of the things I'd done in response--retreat to a place of safety, obsessive cleaning, getting my hair cut short--are all common reactions in women who've been sexually assaulted. The weird thing is that I knew this, but didn't realize that that's why I was doing these things.

I have "homework" now. I'm supposed to go back to the store, by myself if possible, find the manager and tell him what happened and give a description of the boy who fondled me so that he can watch for this in the future, and tell him about my decision not to patronize his store any more as a result.

Grace can come with me, but if she does, she's supposed to wait outside in the concourse.

My hairdresser, by the way, wouldn't let me get a butch hair cut, so I ended up with something a lot like in my profile picture.

Gilda

You want your students to do their homework and we definitely want you to do your homework. ;)

Keep us posted.

Good luck Gilda. I'm pulling for you.

I think the way you described yourself...knee lenght skirt, canvas shoes, normal shirt gives off the impression of a more "weak" woman..Walking in that store, you probably felt unconfortable, seeing all those scary geeks, and it showed that you weren't so confident...
However, your friend dresses sexy, displaying that she's very self confident and has a strong temper..which doesn't seem like something they could get away so easily.
I don't know, however maybe a more determined look on your face would help a lot.

Biznatch: I appreciate your advice.

If you are referring to Grace, she is my wife, and doesn't have a short temper, quite the opposite, in fact. The difference is that she has a great deal of physical confidence that I lack.

--------------------

I went to the hobby store today. Grace came along to help boost my confidence.

We arrived, and decided to get something to eat first. On the way to the hobby store, I saw an end of summer sale on summer dresses, and decided to stop in and see if I could pick up a bargain or two. Then I remembered that I wanted to get the new Astaire/Rogers dvd collection, so we headed over to Suncoast, to see what their price was compaed to Target. When I suggested maybe checking at Egghead to see if there were any new expansion packs for the Sims 2, Grace accused me of stalling. I was indignant. We were, after all, in the mall. Did she seriously expect me not to do any shopping? I wasn't stalling, I was just . . . prioritizing other activities.

Finally, finished with my other activities, about an hour later, I went to the store.

I had rehearsed with Grace what I was going to say, so I went up the clerk at the counter, and asked for the manager. The clerk went in back, and a guy who looked about 20 came out. I told him what I had rehearsed, that I had been groped in his store, described the boy who did it, and told him I wouldn't be patronizing his store any more as a result. His reaction when I described the guy who touched me seemed to indicate that he knew who I was talking about.

He said maybe it would be better if I talked to the owner, who would be in the shop on Monday, and asked for my name and phone number. I gave him a business card.

So that's where it stands. I now get to go back Monday, if I decide to, to talk to the owner, and tell still another person what happened to me.

This just keeps getting better and better.

Gilda

I'm pretty sure you meant that with sarcasm, but I'm going to ignore the sarcasm and agree with you. It took you a bit to work up the guts, but you did it. And your complaint was taken seriously. And sure, you may end up having to tell your story to another stranger: hopefully, the more repetition, the more you can remove any guilt you feel, and put the blame on the idiot where it belongs. It gets better and better.

You may not see the reasons why certain kids get made fun of more than the others, but there are reasons.

I'm sure as a kid you knew the reasons why "Zeke" got made fun of all the time. Maybe he farted one time in class? Someone started a rumor his first day of school? He walks funny?

There are reasons for all that stuff. Adults generally dismiss the rumors and forget about them, kids do not, they need to feel better than other kids, schools don't help this, gym class makes it even worst most of the time, no dress code is the worst of all that will cause this.


I was, and still to this day more than likely, am one of those people who makes fun/bullies people I feel I am superior to. Although I hardly act on my feelings like that anymore, I still feel that I'm better than certain people.




As for the groping, I think you read into it way too much, That's not to say that it was an "accident", of that I can't be sure.

But I don't think you should believe you're being singled out for this type of thing

I agree completely with this opinion.

I also am glad you went back to the shop, and think you SHOULD follow up with the owner. What that guy did was COMPLETELY inappropriate, to the point of actually being criminal. Obviously it is not your fault AT ALL that he did it, but possibly you speaking up and coming forward will prevent him from doing it again, or worse.


Wow.....what really goes through the mind of a guy who does that?!?! I've caught myself stealing glances at a cute girl somewhere or something, but to even CONSIDER touching them? No way............

Anyway, whatever you do, never back down..As others said, don't even look down. Be aware that your body is not a public groping receptacle and let it show. Cursing the guy out really loudly helps a lot. a huge "what the fuck??!?!?" would be great.

Stand strong - you definitely did the right thing by going back into the store and telling the worker there your story. An asshole like that deserves whatever he can get.

From the short amount I've read, you broadcasted the fact that there would be little or no consequence for his actions. Not wanting to be seen,i.e. liking the invisibility factor should always be outweighed by personal preservation. Fight, not flight (or in this case, reporting the little freak to the owner) is the appropriate response.

To answer why some kids get picked on while others don't? The targets for bullies usually back down, or attempt flailingly to fight; they get really mad when picked on. I fixed this in school by becoming something of a comic; if the bully pushed me from behind, I'd flow with the direction, tumble forward and roll into a standing position again, then thank them for helping me demonstrate my agility. I would laugh at the insults they threw at me. Eventually they picked someone else who didn't have "fun" being picked on. My brother took bullies out because he was head and shoulders above them all, and he's my younger brother. We both dealt with it the only way we could, I with my humor, him with his power and size. Everyone has the strength to defend themselves in some way, you just need to look for yours, Gilda. Let them know you aren't a target, and you won't put up with anyone harrassing you in any way.

P.S. I know I'm small, but even as small as I am, if someone had decided to grab my balls or somethin', they would have gotten hurt. I have a sense of humor and everything, but that is my knee-jerk reaction when people invade my personal space without asking or having permission, dammit. ;)

I went by the hobby shop today, and talked to the owner.

I was wearing typical summer clothes, a straight tan cotton skirt, a bit short of the knee, with a white camisole top and matching tennies. I mention this because it came up in the conversation.

He seemed irritated at me, and asked what I expected him to do about it. I told him that perhaps he could look out for the guy who groped me, or keep an eye on the female customers who come into the store. He said they don't get many girls in there and asked how old I was. I told him, 28, and he said maybe if I dressed and acted my age this kind of thing wouldn't happen, but he'd keep an eye out. The manner in which he said this left me doubting that much effort would be put forth, and I got the impression that he'd be happy if women never came in his store. I left.

I don't know what he meant by "acting my age," and I don't think I was dressed any differently from most of the 20-something women in the mall, and in any case, neither of those things has anything to do with what happened. I serously doubt the guy thought, "That woman is dressed like a college student, therefore it is acceptible for me to touch her in an intimate way. However, if she were dressed like a woman her age, that would make such behavior offensive, therefore I will restrain myself."

I don't know if any good came of this at all, but I do feel a lot better now that it's over.

Gilda

Trying to be invisible attracts attention? I'm not sure how that could work.

As it turns out, reporting him would have produced little consequence.

What doesn't make sense to me is that if he found me attractive, why do something that is likely to produce only a negative result? In this case, I left the store. Others might have hit him. If what some have been saying about bullies here is true, maybe he wanted me to hit him so that he'd have an excuse to hurt me.

If he found me attractive, and it's hard to tell from his behavior, what he did was the worst possible thing he could have done for him. I left the store. He drove me away. Maybe he saw me as invading his turf, and wanted me to leave?

It's still confusing. Maybe I should just go with Sissy's explanation of why people do things like this. "Some people are jerks. The act like jerks because that's what they are. You can't change or predict them, all you can do is protect yourself. Don't expect them to act in a reasonable way or even do what is best for themselves. Assholes act that way because they enjoy it. It isn't reasonable or logical, it's just the way it is."

Gilda