tooth

I'm in the "What exactly were you hoping for in such a short period of time?" camp.

Are you seriously wanting to date one of them? If so, how exactly is that supposed to be working once they go home?

Or, were you just looking to make out and/or score with a cute Asian girl(or girls) who you'll never see again? If so, you are dicking around way too much. You need to just go for it. If they are interested, they are interested. If not, then it probably doesn't really matter what you do.

shakran

Good. God.

How the hell did you people find the time to post that much since this morning?

Look, you're both wrong here. This is not about respect. It's about learning not to be an asshole. If you go around calling people fugly, or butterface, or you go around saying people SHOULD do that, then you are being an asshole.

Let's call this one like it is. Yes, people have to earn respect. But they do not have to earn a lack of disrespect. We are not suggesting that Match bow to the woman, or kneel at her feet. We are suggesting that Match stop being a jerk. And we are suggesting that Menoman stop being a jerk by cheering people who are being jerks.

If you wouldn't say it to someone's face, you shouldn't be saying it behind their back. And if your attitude is such that only attractive women are worthy of respect, then you need to grow the hell up.

People wonder why society is so disrespectful, and we have the example right here. People think it's cool to run around doing things like calling women fugly. Well you (hopefully) wouldn't call black people niggers or chinese people chinks. Those terms were designed to be offensive, and they are. There's absolutely no reason to use them, and there's absolutely no reason why you have to call a woman a butterface rather than just saying "I'm not attracted to her."

I'm about as anti-PC as they come. I think all that "womyn" and "herstory" and having to say "his or her" all over the place is absurd, and I won't do it. But being anti-PC does not give me license to be a jackass.

People earn my respect, but that doesn't mean I get to start off being an asshole to them until they win my approval.

Menoman

We're back to this again?

I have a different point of view, therefore I'm a jerk and I'm an asshole.

You wouldn't survive 15 minutes where I live apparently if you get this worked up about a WORD!?

Honestly this entire thing being about a WORD, or words, just blows my mind.

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shakran

it's not the different point of view. It's the fact that you think it's OK to treat people badly because of how they look. It's the fact that you think they have to reach a certain level of physical attractiveness before they have "earned" enough respect to NOT be treated badly.

Now if that ain't bein' a jerk, I don't know what is.

match000

I understand where the people who say I should just lay the cards on the table are coming from. However, I feel that with 2 days, even if I like her enough to consider a meaningful relationship (long-distance lol), it's just way too much trouble/drama causing...

I *thought* I had cleared it with The One I'm Not Interested In that I'm not interested, but she seems to still cling to hope... it's hard because I don't want to be mean, but at the same time if I am too nice it might give her false hope.. arg its hard...

Menoman

I have never said that you have to be attractive to get my respect.

If you take care of yourself, you'll get my respect though.
If you don't take care of yourself, you don't get shit from me.

That's just how I see things.

But you're consistently basing "me" being a jerk, because of how you think things should be done, when in reality, you don't know how things should be done. You have no idea. Neither do I. So truly you're just trying to blast me for how I feel about a word. Once again.... a damned word?!~!?

I have no idea why I'm argueing about a retardedly petty thing like a word.

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shakran

You keep changing your story. Which is it?

Menoman

the story has not changed one bit.

I said if they "Deserve" respect they get it.

Which is exactly in line with every other thing I've said so far.

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kangaeru

Meno -- I agree with your arguments. I don't agree with everything you say, but at least you are willing to live by a realistic standard, which isn't dependant upon what other people think.

Shani -- I also see where you're coming from. You are championing a lost crusade, because you will always meet people who will not like you or respect you, and will say things which could hurt you. The upside is, these people are trash who have no reason to be in your life anyways, so why dwell on them? Let them go.

Look, it's all shades of grey. Because of my values and the way I live my life, some ugly people do not deserve my respect because of who they are and why they're ugly. People can be ugly, and I'm not talking about only theri appearance. For example, to me, it is important to be able to exercise the self control to stay in good shape. For me, seeing a grotesquely overweight 300++ pound person who has overflowing gelatinous body fat...I wonder, how could you ever let that happen to yourself? At what point in your life do you say, what the fuck am I doing, something has got to change, and do something about it? Eat less, jog a bit...do SOMETHING.

I know a kid I used to go to high school with who lives in an apartment in a shitty part of town, works in a gas station, and sucks dick for oxycotin. Now I'm a big fan of drugs, I've done weed, shrooms, MDMA, cocaine, alcohol...but always on my terms. I smoke weed all the time but MDMA and cocaine I only do about 1-2 times a year, when I know I'm going to be out partying in NYC or Boston and I know I'm going to have freaky girls down to party with me. I own the drugs. I do them only when I know I'm going for an all out crazy time, which is rare, but I treat myself to it. They will NEVER own me. And if a day comes when I have to question that, I will quit. That's my personal will power. And then you have kids like my friend from high school who are junkies, who are slaves to drugs. They have no will power, they are weak, ugly people. I don't respect them.

Would I pity them? Would I try to help them if they asked me to? Yes. There are so many different shades of grey, and different situations which can occur where you have a mix of feelings for somebody but will still do something to help them if they're in need.

Call me mean. Call me realistic. I'm not on this planet to make sure everybody else is happy--all I can do is honor who I am, and do my best to treat people right. People are so varied, and so fucked up, that you can never please everybody. If you're living right, you won't have to worry about preaching to people who they should or shouldn't respect people, or say fugly or butterface. People will see how you live, and how you are content, and they will want that, and that's the only way you can make somebody change their ways. Not by arguing with them, or telling them--that automatically puts up a defensive barrier and you won't get through.

Practice what you preach. People will see your better quality of life and decide for themselves if they want to make a change. That's all there is to it, and there is nothing more you can do.

And for the record, I agree with Match / Meno on most of these issues. If you want to call an ugly girl a butterface or fugly on an internet forum, go right ahead. If you can't be brutally honest here, where can you? So many people pass through our fleeting lives, there's no time to waste bullshitting ourselves about what we do and don't want. Know what you want and get it, don't settle for less. Even if that's some fugly girl with a puppy dog crush on you--that's not your problem. Live your life to find your own happiness--you can have compassion for people and respect their right to try to do the same thing, but you don't owe anyone any sort of basic obligation other than to not interfere with their ability to live their own lives how they see fit. I think match handled the situation as well as he could, and I'm proud of ya buddy.

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Dont be afraid to change who you are for what you could become

Jesus Pimp

LOL yeah really, first it was hos now it's fugly Seriously get a life people.

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Never date anyone who doesn't make your dick hard.

Gilda

Or perhaps if you do not intend to offend it would be best not to use offensive language?

I've encountered this basic argument elswhere on this board, the basic idea being that certain langugage has been overused to the point that it ha's lost its power to shock or offend.

This is an overgeneralization. I have no doubt that if you say this is so in your social circle, that it is true. This may not be true when you are interacting with people outside of your social circle.

In my social circle, we don't use namecalling or foul language because it's considered to be impolite. For some of us, namecalling hasn't reached the point where it is so overused that it has lost meaning and power. Some of us are still offended by such language.

It's easy to use offensive language, language meant to degrade, and then call the person who has been offended oversensitive. We cannot change that people do still take offense at language. It should come as no surprise that language whose funtion is to be insulting--like fugly--often causes offense.

When interacting with people on a general usage message board, a higher level of diction is often better suited to getting across a message effectively.

It's often easier to tell somebody they shouldn't be thin skinned than it is to look at one's own behavior critically.

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I'm against ending blackness. I believe that everyone has a right to be black, it's a choice, and I support that.

~Steven Colbert

kangaeru

The only solid argument you can really make Gilda, if you want to 'think critically' about this situation in an objective way which can apply to anybody using demeaning words which offend somebody else (without getting into their personal upbringings and beliefs), is that the person using the words should realize that it offends people on this board and should refrain from using it. If you know it's going to rub somebody the wrong way, why say it and be an asshole? That's a flawed argument though, based on the circumstances.

If someone is offended by something you say, then you shouldn't say it. That's how it works in the real world, typically. But what if you mean what you say? What if it's what you really think? As much as I think there is an awesome close knit community of friendly people here @ TFP, we don't all need to agree with each other all the time. If we did, we'd get bored fast. The whole point of this place is to say what you REALLY mean and to just put it out there---this whole social project is to see what happens when people just totally drop that wall of 'what is appropriate' and just say WHATEVER the hell they think. When people start getting REAL! (Sorry that's almost quoting the real world intro there) So if you want to say, using the term fugly or butterface is offensive and you're an asshole and I'm offended so don't say it on here out of respect for me, then I say, welcome to the classroom. I do respect you, that's why I'm not going to walk around your eggshells and bullshit you. You may not like the lesson but you're going to learn something about the person posting, and possibly about yourself too.

Considering the nature of this thread and how there were no outright flames or personal attacks, I have to give a nod to the TFP for giving such a good discussion of an interesting topic like this.

Good stuff folks.

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Dont be afraid to change who you are for what you could become

Gilda

If I had actually made such an argument, you might have a point. I didn't, however, so you are arguing against a straw man.

Thoughts can be expressed thoughtfully and politely, or crudely and offensively. The former is usually more effective, especially in a context where the latter is likely to cause offense.

You can say what you really think while being polite. The two aren't mutually exclusive.

Once again you bring out your straw man. Makes an easy target, doesn't it?

If I'd meant that, I would have said that. I didn't. Reread what I said, and you'll see that my point is quite different from how you are characterizing it.

I'm not sure what lesson I'm supposed to learn from name calling that can't be just as well communicated using polite language.

I don't believe I've asked anyone to walk on eggshells around me.

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I'm against ending blackness. I believe that everyone has a right to be black, it's a choice, and I support that.

~Steven Colbert

pig

The name is Jack. Thread Jack. Just here to ask "What is everyone arguing about, exactly?" After you get past the semantics of respect vs. courtesy, then it seems that you're down to an issue of some people enjoying crude, foul-mouthed, possibly pejorative phrases to describe others, and some people not. Yep - that's American culture alright. I just don't think any consensus is going to be reached on the appropriate way to converse with relate to your fellow human beings, on this type of point. It seems that it's a subset of cultural communication, similar in some ways to some people liking hard-core rap or punk, and some people liking classical or opera.

match: good decision. go out and find practice targets with a longer shelf life. sounds like this episode of potential toungue wrasslin' is over.

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You don't love me, you just love my piggy style

kangaeru

Did you even really argue anything? That argument is the only one deserving consideration which I could think of, that didn't base it's reasoning on anything about either of the two people holding the argument. E.G. their own personal beliefs and lifestyle. Would you mind telling me exactly what your argument is? Because I guess I'm unclear about it.

Does this include you? Is "some of us" supposed to be rhetorical? Either way, then you're saying that this sort of language shouldn't be used because it will offend some people. Which is exactly the argument I was citing in my previous post. Or perhaps you're merely saying that you will get a better answer to your questions if you make them as unoffending and politically correct to as many people as possible, because people will then focus more on your content, and not your vulgar verbiage? If I'm totally taking shots in the dark here feel free to englighten me with exactly what you're arguing.

You know what though? You are being over sensative--it's the truth. Because when you give a stranger the power to upset you with their opinion of you, then you've give up some of your self identity. If you don't have some core opinion of yourself which you won't take a chip at unless someone really close and important to you tells you you need to take a hard look, you're in for a world of hurt. Which a lot of people are currently in. You've got to have some kind of base belief in yourself to act as a shield against all the untrue, convoluted bullshit which people are going to throw at you throughout your life. Reality is different from person to person--to one girl I may be fugly, to the next, I may be Brad Pitt. It doesn't matter, it's all objective.

I'm playing devil's advocate here. When I talk about welcome to the class room this is a learning experience--well it is. It's learning how to let things which you shouldn't let bother you slide off your back. The only way you're going to make people see things the way you do is by living happily, practicing what you preach, and letting people see your ideology works. Until then, there will ALWAYS be an inexhaustable amount of people who will find ways to offend you and get under your skin. When you step back and realize how insignificant they all are in the big picture, it's like whatever man, do your thing, I'm happy over here.



You do owe somebody politeness when you are addressing them, or one of their issues or topics. It's their own issues they've opened up, so you've got to respect them for that and not use insulting language. When you're addressing your own stuff, as match did, in a, for the most part, very unvulgar way, you can speak freely as you please. Not to mention this guy is inexperienced as hell. Some people got offended and defensive when they could have been a bit more understanding to his naievity. Like I said, lessons learned.

So, please explain to me what position you're defending then.

You're supposed to learn about how people really think when they can say whatever they want. Whether you like what you see or not is really objective--my interest, and fascination with this place is peoples' ability to do so. And for the freedom for myself to do so. Some people will present themselves differently than others--some politely and intellectually, some a bit more vulgar and rough around the edges. Like a college student engineer who has no experience with girls. Isn't it fascinating to see how this guy, who has no real solid history of interracting with girls, has learned the terms and values that he knows and has used here from his male friends? That he has never kissed a girl but he knows about terms like cock blocking, butterface, brown bagger, etc? I can only imagine how long he has wanted to get a romantic spark going so he can jump into this whole sex and relationships thing--and he's tryin, good for him! I'm objective and unjudgemental about all of this--you're judging through your tinted window of your own values. If you let people just be themselves and say what they want to say, you can learn a lot about what people are really like, and cut through the bullshit of saying things politely, and down to exactly how we mean them when we have a thought in our heads. Not everyone is a pleasant polite person--you've got to take the good with the bad.

I don't know, maybe I'm the only one who finds value in that. If so, that's okay--I'm still gonna be here, more entertained and enlightened by the minute as usual.

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Dont be afraid to change who you are for what you could become

SiN

woah. what a thread.

interesting how it progressed ....

and I think that all bits of it are worthy of discussion.

(even though I can't get my head around it right now well enough to join in...)
........

however, I was thinking about this thread earlier today, and I do wonder,

if the genders involved were reversed, would things be different, and how?

(could be worthy of a separate thread in Coming Together .. if anyone wants to run with it, please do )

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pig

Not feeling like starting the thread, but I'd say probably so..statistically speaking, due to the gender-related expectations of having the guy hit on the girl. I would guess something like : Dominant "less attractive but certainly not fugly" guy hits on newcomer girl. Girl doesn't go for it. Guy gets embarrassed. Other guys don't do shit, because they're in relationships and are faithful so the groups stop hanging out. Or other guys ravenously try to get into girl's pants, because they're in relationships but are unfaithful. Dominant guy keeps hitting on girl until the second he leaves the country, or else finds a more suspectable girl to hit on. He is more than likely outgoing and funny, or else his ugly ass wouldn't be the alpha of the group.

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You don't love me, you just love my piggy style

SiN

ehm, I guess what I meant was more about this semantics thing that we have going on here.

female poster starts thread about some fugly guy, etc etc ... what happens?

although I suppose both thread topics (that of the OP, and the tangental fugly/etc stuff) ... would be interesting when looked at from a different angle.

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pig

oh yeah, screw the OP. I think I called for that in my first post. Well, in that case - I umm...don't know. Ask Cynthetic or Shakran - I personally love the use of terms like fugly and so I wouldn't have a problem with the subjective description, etc. Hate to say it, but I'm not sure the reaction on the board is purely genderific, but I think that rook status might be a factor too. I can think of some pretty, ummm....candid members of ye olde TFP, and they'd usually get a laugh for such description.

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You don't love me, you just love my piggy style

Gilda

I thought it was pretty clear:

if you do not intend to offend it would be best not to use offensive language

Nope, I said no such thing. Try reading that again. I said:

I have no doubt that if you say this is so in your social circle, that it is true. This may not be true when you are interacting with people outside of your social circle.

In my social circle, we don't use namecalling or foul language because it's considered to be impolite. For some of us, namecalling hasn't reached the point where it is so overused that it has lost meaning and power. Some of us are still offended by such language.

My social circle outside of my immediate family and work place, by the way, includes several college students, all guys, all computer science, physical science, or engineering majors. Nerds with little experience with girls. I know nothing of how they speak when I'm not around, and I don't care. When I am around, they speak politely, and don't use derogatory language, at least not more than once.

I didn't say anything about being PC, just that if you use language intended to be insulting, people will be insulted. Otherwise, you've basically got it right.

Whether I'm being oversensitive is a matter of opinion, not objective truth.

You're reading WAY too much into what I've said.

I disagree. You owe somebody courtesy whenever you interact with them.

When interacting with people on a general usage message board, a higher level of diction is often better suited to getting across a message effectively.

I made exactly two responses to the OP.

In the first, I complimented him on how he handled the situation with the girl and offered some advice on how to score a kiss, girlfriend, and sex.

In the second, I expressed agreement with him that hanging out with a group of girls can be mentally tiring, while disregarding the "butterface" comment.

I fail to see any harsh judgements there.

I disagree that speaking politely is bullshit. I sincerely believe that doing so in a context where people are likely to take offense at crude and insulting language--like this message board--both shows respect and, as a result, is more likely to effectively communicate ones message. If you don't offend your audience, they are more likely to be receptive to your message.

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I'm against ending blackness. I believe that everyone has a right to be black, it's a choice, and I support that.

~Steven Colbert

kangaeru

I didn't say speaking politely was bulllshit, but I think putting euphemistically or politely when what you REALLY think is harsher, is doing a disservice to oneself.

In this case:

The Woman Who I am Not Interested In

This fugly chick who is coming down on me like the bubonic plague when i have zero interest in her.


I don't know, the second one is I would enjoy meeting more because it's more of a candid thought. I respect where you're coming from though--we're both in different places, so I'll just leave it at that. I'm not going to convince you I'm right or vice versa.

::waving white flag smiley::

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Dont be afraid to change who you are for what you could become

monkeysugar

I was just thinking about the very same questoin while reading through this thread. From what I've seen many times with my friends, both male and female, (although it's in raw, real life, not beyond the comfortable quasi-anonymous shelter of the internet)

"I'm not interested because I do not find her physically attractive. I've made it clear I'm not interested. I'm hanging out with them by proxy because I am interested in their friend(s) who I do find attractive."

Responses based on the sex of the person making the statement:
(M) "YOU'RE AN ASSHOLE" (insert majority of thread here)
(F) "YOU POOR THING" "I hate it when ugly guys like me and won't get the point that I'm not interested. That sucks that he's friends with the guy you're interested in, because the guy you like is really cute."

No, not everyone is like that, but most people are. It's not just my friends who think this way or do this, I think everyone does *to an extent*. I think everyone thinks this way to some degree. I'd be willing to bet that there isn't a single person here who has never in their lives judged someone based on their appearance. What's the difference between thinking and saying? What's worse? To think it and say it, or to think it and condemn those who say it?

FUGLY is a word. Whether or not you like that word is up to you. Is it any better to use a more politically correct, sugarcoated word instead? I don't think so. The word may change, but the thought behind the word is still the same. I may not have ever used that word in mixed company, but I've had those type of thoughts before, and I'm pretty damn sure that at some point in their life, everyone else has as well.

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I've got the love of my life and a job that I enjoy most of the time. Life is good.

Leto

maybe you are misunderstanding the importance of words. it's kind of obvious the import that they have...

tspikes51

Yes, it is. It seems that in this day and age, just about anything that can be said could and probably is offensive or hurtful to somebody. Hell, I'm doing it right now, and I haven't even used any kind of derogatory or degrading language. You put "jesus christ" in a vain context (and didn't capitalize it). That is more than likely to offend somebody.

On the issue of calling somebody "fugly," can't you like somebody who is ass ugly? I know people of both sexes who are sort of eye sores, but are really cool people. Looks are just extra.

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"I'm telling you, we need to get rid of a few people or a million."
-Maddox

match000

Yes, sure, I can like them as a friend of course. They would make great friends, like anyone else. But to be romantically involved with them, I have to be physically attracted on some level; who are we kidding, we all are physically attracted at some level unless there is some forced date-for-money or date-for-class thing going on.

As an update, apparently The One I'm Not Interested In never got over me, even though I made it clear repeatedly we were just good friends. She was pissed off at the club when I showed care and took care of the cute girl I liked because she was puking; The One I'm Not Interested shot off into the dance floor and freaked with any random guy to "get back at me." Funny thing is, I didn't know and neither would I have cared, not to sound mean.

In any case they all left by now and things are over. Whew! I have to admit, I was sad to see new-found friends go, but then again I signed up for it knowingly. Besides, who am I kidding, I am mostly sad because the two cute girls I liked had left.

I never had a chance with the two cute ones beyond friendship anyways, by the way. They were both taken eh. Even the 2nd one that broke up with her BF had told me she was keeping it secret because she hoped they would get back together when she got back. Hehehe. As a final twist, you could say *I* got played by *The One I'm Not Interested In*.
HAHAHAHAAH O_o

texxasco

!!!!!!!!! Bingo !!!!!!!!!!!!!

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...A Bad Day of Fishing is Better Than a Great Day at Work!

tecoyah

There is absolutely no reason for this thread to be revived.....most certainly not for the reason it was