match000

Yes, I agree. However, with it being anything other than sexual or romantic (such as the Professional or Recreational), its much easier to deal with the "first-target-not-desired-target" simply by hanging out with them and spending a little time. I mean, if it's a guy, and you're straight, no prob, just go hang out a few times and you are chum chum. Then move on to desired target in group.

In the romantic situation, you cannot solve the problem this way (by hanging out with undesired initial contact a few times). If you do so, you are either leading them on, or expressing romantic interest. Either way, your chances with the rest of the group as anything other than friends go to shit.

My preferred solution would have been to do as others suggested *in the beginning*. Which was to simply state my interest in who I like, and tell the one I'm not interested in flat out that I'm not interested. I guess I could do this now, but the chances of success are alot slimmer, plus I've already invested some time, and instead of making shit blow up, I might as well get some friends out of it.

AVoiceOfReason

Match200, having read this thread, I came up with a few thoughts:

1. The language you chose to use to express yourself clouded the thought you were trying to convey. Happens often in life, and this is a great example. Had you said "I'll call the dominating one "Alice" and gone from there, the whole thread would have taken on a new tone.

2. You assume that these girls are being dominated (and you're there, so you may be correct in this assumption) but it may also be that "Alice" has asked the others to give her the shot at you. Seems like instead of being the player you want to be, you're being played.

3. I spent too many years chasing girls that weren't interested in me, and ignoring those that were. When I decided to lower my standards from VOGUE magazine models (after all, I'm not GQ material) I started dating a lot and gained confidence in dealing with women. Before long, I was able to get a date with just about anyone I wanted who wasn't already involved with someone (and even some that were).

The VOR bottomline: You've got a short amount of time here, and not enough to get into the cliche to figure out the dynamics well enough to manuever in it. Sit where you want, ask out who you want, but remember, you're being played just as much as you're trying to play them. You can either fight it and be alone, or have some fun with Alice.

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A Voice Of Reason, not necessarily the ONLY one.

guthmund

That's exactly what I was going to say.

When I go out with a large group (men and women) and the new guy shows up, the women tend to 'push' the odd girl out up front especially if the odd girl has expressed interest in the new guy already.

match000, it seems to me that you can only be manipulated if you allow yourself to be manipulated. 21 is young (like I have room to talk at 26), but you're an adult and the adult thing to do would be to talk to the 'odd girl' and set things straight. I can't say it's going to get you any play with the other girls, but at least it won't leave any hard feelings when they leave I imagine.

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Astrocloud

The same thing used to happen to me -and then I realized -I was the fugly one!!.

ShaniFaye

My name is Shannon, and I have been called fugly more than once in my life

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oblar

This is a little sidetrack, but this thread made me think about something...

notice how certain words when used to insult us when we were younger we avoid as much as possible? I personally used to be called fat all the time when I was younger.. Now, even though I try to describe someone as bigger, I will use terms, like bigger, heavy set, a bit larger, etc.. I don't like the term fat... Although I must admit, I have used it on occassion...

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filtherton

Yeah, being a firecrotch ain't easy. Especially in light of our increased risk of skin cancer.

shakran

Now that, ladies and gentlemen, is smooth




What you're doing is worse than treating her like shit when you see her. At least if you did that she'd know where she stands. But you've chosen the chickenshit path of being nice to her face, then running off and reducing her to "fugly" when she's not looking.

And this crap about her using you is total bullshit. You presumably have a brain and the ability to use it. If you feel like you're being used, don't stay in the situation. It's not that hard to figure out.

Plus that statement about her using you smacks of "well I bought her dinner/gave her flowers/talked to her for 5 minutes, so she OWES me sex." That is also a bullshit attitude.

You have a lot of growing up to do before you are deserving of, or have even the slightest prayer of having a shot at, a real woman.

skier

After reading this thread i must admit I am rather suprised at the vehemence of the responses to original poster. While I do not agree with the devious manner match000 went about meeting new girls, or using the term "fugly", he was looking for help and advice. What he got was many rather forceful beratings about his wordchoice and his dismissal of the unattractive girl. To me, it's a rather startling response that is not in line with TFP's usually excellent standard.

I'd also like to say that due to the ambiguous nature of "being nice/friendly" to other people, you can overlay many different hypothetical situations on top of match's description of events; and that these situations you've created have biases that match your own. The "fugly" girl could have been mild and unassuming, and asked nicely/plead the group to set her up with match000. She could also be a domineering bitch that made threats in order to get her way. Match000 could be fugly himself, and the girls all think he's below them and so push him over to the unattractive girl. The girl may be the unquestioned leader of the group, but kind as well so that the other girls in the group want to do something nice for her. She may have thought match000's "being nice" was flirting, and she thought she was flirting back and now they were a thing. Or perhaps she realizes he was just being nice to get to the other girls in the group, but doesn't care because she wants a piece of tail.

You can probably remember a time when you've been in a similar situation, in one of those roles. Maybe it hits close to home. But that's not match's problem- and we should help him out with his problem, whether it's misguided or not.

match000, I'm going to assume that you're not looking for a serious relationship, what with physical attraction being the base qualifier for your rating system. And while I don't see anything wrong with this standpoint, I feel you should place more weight into personality/intelligence/etc. rather than looks.

I'm curious about this point. Was it clear to you that she had a dominant personality immediately, or did you come to realize this over time?

You may be thinking she is dominant because you're "stuck" with her when in the group. The real leader of the group may be another of the girls, in this case.

This sort of annoys me. You're not really "stuck" with her. You're just trapped , yourself. You've led this girl on- acting all buddybuddy with her through falsehood. As I see it, you've got two options:
1. Tell her the truth, as tactfully as you can. Results will be unpredictable, but afterwards you can start from scratch. As a bonus, if you do it right, she'll respect your belated honesty and perhaps help you out with the rest of the group. (of course, if she's vengeful, she'll segragate your from the whole group. Which, of course, is where you are right now.)
2. Keep with the falsehood, and try to pull a girl from the side when she's not paying attention. This seems much more dangerous and difficult in my opinion.


Overall, I think you should be more upfront with your intentions. Girls are not the enemy. You shouldn't have the mindset that you're getting away with something, and have to be sneaky to achieve it. Believe it or not, girls like boys too, and enjoy sex as well.

Go out to have fun, to enjoy the night (or day) and flirt with unrestrained enthusiasm

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shakran

The TFP is not a boys club where we hang out treating women like sides of meat and giggling about how ugly they are. The original poster is the one not up to the usually excellent standard of the TFP. And frankly if you want to post crap about cockblocking fugly girls, you deserve what you get.

AVoiceOfReason

I thought this was about an open exchange of ideas. I happen to find that idea repugnant, but it IS a viewpoint some in this world hold.

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A Voice Of Reason, not necessarily the ONLY one.

skier

I never said you had to agree with him, just that you didn't need to berate him so harshly. And I don't want to single anyone out here- if TFP wants to keep maturing and evolving, people have to be more openminded and tolerant of different ideas, even if you don't agree with them.

If it's a mindset seen as shallow or ignorant, we should be educating instead of berating. More carrot, less stick; ya know?

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shakran

You haven't seen many of my posts Carrots are great but sometimes a guy needs a good whack with a stick to wake up and see what he's been doing wrong.

As for you calling for me to be openminded and tolerant of someone calling a woman a fugly cockblocker, uh, sorry, but no. I do not have to be openminded and tolerant about closemindedness and intolerance. Kind of defeats the purpose doesn't it?

And of course we can flip your argument right around and say that you're not being veryopenminded or tolerant of my post - - See, I'm all for openmindedness until it gets to the point that you're bending over backwards so others can run around doing whatever the hell they want. There comes a point where they're being such boors that someone has to stand up and squawk about it.

I'm frankly surprised that you're more concerned about the fact that I don't like people treating women like whorish sex objects than you are about the fact that people treat women like whorish sex objects.

Ustwo

You have obviously not pissed in as many bowls of cornflakes as I have here, this is pretty much par for the course

Any topic which brings an emotional response will be subject to such vehemence, even on tfp.

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match000

I agree with much of what you said. However, no, I am not expecting sex, especially NOT from her. lol

match000

Yes yes! Skier hit it right on the head. These are the many main aspects that COULD be the situation. It's hard for me to even analyze correctly which one it is. She seems like a likeable leader, who seems to have gotten the other girls in to help her out. HOWEVER, I think the other girls don't mind if I hit on them. The two cute ones I liked, today I just sat my ass right down across and next to them (lucky positioning), ignoring the one i'm not interested in telling me to sit next to her at the END OF THE table. I *nicely* ignored her, saying "Oh, this spot is just fine."

So I start talking to one of the cute ones after the one i'm not interested in leaves, and after small talk I ask her for her dorm #. Apparently she "forgot it." Well, it *could* be true, it couldn't. You guys can have a laugh at me about that one. I *might* have got my ass rejected! hahahaha.

Anyways, I talk to her and the other cute one beside me most of dinner, and well the one i'm not interested was pissed off for the first 20 mins of dinner. She didn't say a word! Probably mad cuz I didn't sit next to her. Cuz I still talked to her occasionally just to keep things unhostile.

It seemed like she recovered though, and was back on my tail. Sometime later she managed to take pictures, and somehow placed herself next to me, then swapped me out of my seat so that I was moved AWAY from the two cute ones! Hella cockblocked again!!!!

One of the cute ones looked pissed, and about 15-20 seconds later she walked off with her friend. She barely said bye to anyone. Yes, she looked pissed alright. The other cute one always has excellent composure, and always is smiling. She also always stays with us to the end, with the one I'm not interested in and the one chasing after my buddy wingman, while the other girls leave.

Yes. Base looks is important to me, but of course so is everything else: personality/intelligence. But being realistic, would anyone date a girl/guy who they found *unattractive, to them*? C'mon, honesty here... I sure wouldn't. I have to be attracted to them on some level, and boy oh boy, any girl in the group EXCEPT the one I'm not interested in could be potential dating material (and they are not all conventionally cute, trust me. Some of you will find the "cute" ones I like to be, well, unattractive). Just my luck!

It was clear the was by far the most social of the group, *if she wants to be*. Cuz, today, after I didn't sit next to her, boy, my guy friend (wingman) told me he thought she was gonna blow her top. She didn't say a thing for 20 minutes.

But yes, one of the girls said "She is our leader. She took us to SF without knowing the place... blah blah."

Nope, option 1 does not work. Again, she nearly blew her top just cuz I didn't sit next to her! Now is that moody or what.
It seems most likely that although she is not outright domineering, she *will* segregate me from the group if I tell her that I'm not uninterested. In fact, she will do that anyway if I overtly hit on any other girl!

I tried #2 today. I asked the other cute girl for her dorm # when we were alone at the table, she "forgot her #", which either means she:
1) rejected my fugly ass.
2) truly forgot it
3) doesn't want to tell it to me cuz fear of reprisal from The One I'm Not Interested In. Since they are all dorming on the same floor, it is obviously not tactful for her to alienate herself from the group leader, which would result in most hostile, unfun, and boring time for her the rest of her 10 days here.

Yes yes! Thank you for this excellent advice. If I could do this again, I would have:
On the first day, NOT given The One I'm Intersted In my cell # and email.

I would have gone up to either/and both cute girls and asked them for *their* number and email.

I would have NOT been nice to The One I'm Not Interested In, for fear of leading her on. And I would have ONLY talked to the cute girls I am interested in (mainly, of course I'll do small chit-chat with everyone else.).

Well, for the people who hate me already, my inexperience can cheer you up:
1) Never kissed a girl
2) Never had sex (follows from 1)
3) Never had a GF (follows from 1&2)
4) Hardly interact with girls at all. (Engineer)

These facts also pretty much confirm I am no player.

Phew, long post!

insidious_machinae

Match000, despite the fact that more than a few people have said to lower your standards and go after the chick you aren't interested in....well, don't. My standards only have increased as I got more familiar with the concept of dating. As a consequence I am dating a woman who (in my opinion) is the hottest thing to have graced the TFP. I'm younger than you, and I share a semilar mentality toward the dating scene (and women in general) that you have.

The sad fact is that the chick you're not interested in is going to scathe any time you ignore her. She will get over it, and eventually someone will settle for her, or vice versa. But you don't have to be that guy. Go after the cute girl who didn't reject you, full steam ahead.

And personally, being that you didn't call the lady "fugly" to her face, I see no reason why your decision to use the term has been looked down upon so harshly. You shouldn't have to explain your motivation or logic behind the phrase. It's just your phrase. If people are so blinded by their addiction to P.C. content, they need to lighten up. This is, after all, an internet forum. If Halx or one of the mods didn't like the word, then they could add it to the forum censoring tool. Since that obviously hasn't happened, I feel you have whatever right you wish to use the term for whatever purpose you feel is appropriate for communicating your situation and views.

Daniel_

Who by?

Idiots?

The Blind?

Sheesh!

If anyone called you fugly in my hearing I'd stick up for you.

Hmm.....

I'd stick up for you anyway

(nt saying what I'd stick where, mind you)

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match000

Yes, I agree, and I intend to do just that. There is a hitch, though. The cute one who didn't reject me (the same one who stuck it through to the end with me and The One I'm Not Interested In in all the dinners so far, also along with the other girl going after my guy friend who is there too) has a BF back home across the ocean in Taiwan.

The weird thing is: on the first day we met, this cute one with BF asked for my email, and wanted to take a pic with me (only The One I'm Not Interest In did that also). Then she sticks it through to the end, while all other girls leave... And she's always smiling and calm, no change in mood... And she didn't seem to mind when The One I'm Not Interested In cockclocked me again, whereas the other cute one who possibly rejected me got up and left looking pissed off.

She is confusing me like no tomorrow... she has a BF back home! Why does she always stay, always smile at me, and is so nice to me in general.

My friend's theories:
1) She is playing wingwoman for The One I'm Not Interested In.
2) She is more comfortable hanging out until the end BECAUSE she is NOT single. (Makes sense..)
3) The One I'm Not Interested In is using her to make me stay. Heck, she was the only reason I stayed with the group after day 1 (before I noticed the other cute girl).
4) She's decoy so that I might hit on her but not on other, eligible girls.

Thanks for your understanding on this front. This was what I felt when I made the original post.


EDIT: PS, from now on, I will refer to "The One I'm Not Interested In" as TOINII: "Toinii". Maybe this new word is urbandictionary.com-able

monkeysugar

My Theories
4. She was being polite. It's very easy to interpret the wrong way if: (a) you are unfamiliar with their culture, which no matter how much you think you know, you really don't. or (b) you want to think it.
5. She views you as a friend. End of story. You were nice to her, you showed her around, end of story.
6. She might like you, but there's less than 10 days left before she goes away and realistically probably won't be coming back, so really, what's the point?

From what I've personally seen, you're pretty much looking at 4 and 5. Hate to break it to you. Playing "tour guide" is great if you're looking to make friends, and that's really about it.

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twinkle

She forgot her number? Speaking as a female, I am going to be bold and say there is a ninety-nine percent chance that she is not interested in you.

Also, part of what annoyed me about your initial post is that you didn't pick ONE cute girl from the group to try to hit on... you picked two. That means you werent especially intrigued by either, you just want a cute girl to fuck. It comes off as very shallow.

I'm still cringing about your use of the word fugly, btw.

pinkie

Yep!

A nice guy?

lurkette

We may be coming down a bit hard on the boy, but frankly, I'm not interested in giving him advice on how to brush off women he's used so he can get laid. That might be the advice he asked for, but frankly, learning to think on a more mature level and treat women with some respect is going to stand him in much better stead in the long run.

It wasn't even particularly the use of the word "fugly" that got me, but this:

It sounds like you were using her and knew you were using her. There's nothing wrong with being nice to someone who's friendly when you're not interested in them. But doing so with the express purpose of using them as a means to get to someone else is pretty slimy. There are two things going on here, though: the situation, and your attitude. It's not the situation that most of us are reacting to: there's a girl who's interested in me, and as long as she's around, the women I'm REALLY interested in won't do anything. That's a valid problem. However, your attitude about it - using the friendly fugly woman to get to her friends, calling her fugly in the first place - is what is setting most of us off.

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Ustwo

I think someone has learned an important lesson here.

Never use 'fugly' in mixed company

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match000

Hmm, I'm afraid this makes the most sense. Either/Both cute girls could be more like 4 and 5. But you know what? I'm going to pick the one without a BF and just try, because like what others said, if I don't, I'll never know...

Probably so. Well, I'm going to have to try anyways, but on the one that "forgot" and not on the one that has a BF. If I find out for sure that she has no interest, I'll lay off in an instant.

No, actually, I just didn't explain the story completely enough. I was only romantically interested in the cute one with a BF, but I didn't know she had a BF. Once I found that out, I became much more interested in the other cute one... It's just the one with a BF gives all these mixed signals, its weird. Most likely she is just being friendly, like MonkeySugar said.

Maybe yeah. Well, I was a little too nice to begin with, so that's what got me into all these problems in the first place. I should have just told The One I'm Not Interested In that I had zero interest, and rejected her by not giving her my email and phone number.


Ok, I understand your concerns. I was just trying to be friends with her, and was definitely NOT trying to lead her on. If I could do this again, I will probably still try to be friends with her, but tell her from the get-go that I have zero interest.

Regarding the "fugly" word stuff, I had already realized that people might be offended in the original post, and then had apologized for it *preemptively* in the 3rd post. I really can't say anything else more, except that next time I'll use "unattractive" instead...

Yes. I have learned to never use "fugly" in mixed company, even on the internet.

To some extent, I also felt like an internet forum would be open enough for me to forget the facade of the politics needed for daily interaction in real life. This doesn't mean, you know, I thought I could be rude and obnoxious and disprespectful... just that I could be honest without having to "tone down" or understate my ideas. I only used "fugly" to get across how *unattracive* the girl was *to me*, not to deliberately offend people. I will keep such political ideas of internet forum interaction in mind in the future




And again, I appreciate all of your responses so far. I *have* improved as a person, and gained much more experience through your collective comments, whether they be suggestions or irate bashings at my head.


Suggestions are welcome on deciphering the mixed signals from the girl with BF, though...
and any other suggestions are welcome as well

AVoiceOfReason

And we're told we don't need a MEN'S Lounge.

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A Voice Of Reason, not necessarily the ONLY one.

SiN

That does seem to be the case.

However, I've got to speak out as (perhaps the only) female here who has no problem with fugly in this context ...

I know I know, people can't say everything exactly how they think it, that's part of tact.
Of course.

But still .... I don't find this way of thinking that unusual ... so I suppose I'm not super-shocked/offended/insulted to see it actually typed out ...



I may also be biased, 'fugly' has been one of my favourite words since I first heard it several years ago

__________________

Sweetpea

Indeed, i agree with Cyn's advice completely

Sweetpea

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twinkle

IMHO it shouldn't be a "facade of politics" --- you should have enough respect for women in general to avoid using a term as base as "fugly" without a whole lot of pre-thought.

It's things like this that make me fear that the gender gap is unbridgeable.

Anyway, you could just do what I do and be blunt. Tell her you like her and be man enought to put up with whatever shit ensues.

Menoman

I have an idea, how bout ya'll get past the term FUGLY, and on to something a bit more helpful?

45 posts about how a word is oh so damned bad is hardly any worse than calling someone fugly.


My advice, since yer just in it for the fuck anyway, is to just lay it all down, man up, go for broke, whatever you wanna call it. Try to get the girl you like alone somehow, and just say "Hey you wanna do something later? Like, just the two of us?"

It's not that hard to figure out if a girl is interested or not.

By the way, the people saying that he's a player, and that he might be getting played.

1) He is surely no player.
2) A player does not get played

__________________

Janey

ummm how about No?


Obviously the term strikes a discordant note, and is worthy of response, regardless of gender.

Redlemon

I'd say yes, move on, because the point has already been made quite well. match000 appears to have seen the error of his ways. Anything more at this point is just piling on.

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Cynthetiq

DOGPILE ON MATCH!!!

oh... not that kind of pile

agreed, that's why I didn't address it at all. To me it was just chaff from the actual wheat.

I still stand by my own original post in this thread.

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Sweetpea

Personally, i'm facinated by your situation, i think it happens more often than people think, oh the games that men and women play . . .
It seems human nature is to often 'do something to get something.'

So do we have an update match000 ?

Did you lay the cards out and ask the girl you are actually interested in to do something just the two of you?

inquiring minds wish to know hehe

Sweetpea

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Johnny Pyro

Ugly- Not pleasing to the eye; unsightly


Is ugly offensive? It sounds better when we sugar coat words. Unattractive?
Isn't that the same thing as ugly?

Fucking ugly or fugly sounds harsh. If someone were to call me that I would be devastated. Fugly is guy macho shit that I don't say, but it doesn't offend me. Some women I know are ugly.(thats my personal opinion.) Like the girl who works down at Xtra Mart convient store. Wow! Thats ugly! The girl I first had sex with, thats ugly! You know what, come to think of it, she was fugly!

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. To refer to a women as fugly is not very nice, but he was just getting his point across. Its just what I think.

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kangaeru

Match--I know what you mean man. I would make your actions speak for you--do what you planned to do, if the ugly girl hits on you don't give her the time of day. Ignore her attempts. If she doesn't get the message, then at least you had a game to play the past couple days and something entertaining to think about. But in the end that's all this is: entertainment. They're leaving in 10 days, you're not going to meet your soulmate, nor do I think you're trying to. If you do this you also won't be 'using' her or giving her any false hopes--just let her see straight out that you're interested in her friends, and not her. That girl is the sum of what she's made herself to be, and if she is rejected all the time, then it's up to her to worry about whether she's happy or wants to make changes in her life and live differently.

If anything you should worry about getting over some of your 'first' hurdles because otherwise, it doesn't matter if you have a cute girl if you don't know what to do with her once you have her =P

I can see where all the ladies slamming you are coming from but, fact is, this is not a perfect world. People will hit on those who are attractive to them. A shitty, shallow personality can turn someone off just as much as a size 36 waist. But a great personality, to some, myself included, cannot salvage somebody who I have no physical attraction to whatsoever. It's just a non-negotiable point, and I think to fault a young guy for this is kind of unfair. You can always choose to change yourself, if you want to attain something. If that's being good looking and being able to get the attention of the guys who catch your interest, then eat a salad, and go for a jog. If that's not a priority for you, and you're happy with yourself, that's perfectly fine, but then you can't blame the 'hot whiney barbie chick' for stealing the show. It's all just a matter of motivation.

Of course there is a difference between being true to your personal preferences and being sensitive about hurting someone's feelings when you reject them. To tell someone they could be miss america (with a bag over their head) is pretty fucking cruel, but I'm also not out to live my life so other people don't have their feelings hurt. If I'm not interested, i'll let you know it in as nice an unambigiously as I can, but bottom line is I'm not interested. So stop trying.

GL match, don't take it too seriously. Try and have fun with it.

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Janey

I see. yes good point. I enjoy your clarrification and discussion of the term fugly.

ShaniFaye

I think my 36 inch waist is offended greatly

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kangaeru

I didn't mean 36 inch waist, I meant a 'size' 36, which is like a 50++ something inch waist

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Daniel_

Keep digging, man - you'll hit bedrock soon.

__________________

╔═════════════════════════════════════════╗
Overhead, the Albatross hangs motionless upon the air,
And deep beneath the rolling waves,
In labyrinths of Coral Caves,
The Echo of a distant time
Comes willowing across the sand;
And everthing is Green and Submarine
╚═════════════════════════════════════════╝