The links below are so NSFW that it defies description:

Check here. More post-op neo-vaginas than you can shake a stick at.

Also here for pictuers of some truly excellent aesthetic results.

Assuming that its the best possible result in terms of appearance, 10. A well-constructed neo-vagina is visually, and to a partnere, functionally indistiguishable from a natural one. Keep in mind that natural vaginas can vary greatly in appearance from one another, and with a little bit of hair growth, most of the differences tend to be somewhat masked anyway. An MTF always has some pubic hair growth to cover the incision scars.

It depends greatly upon the skill of the surgeon and the technique used. A general rule of thumb for a straight penile inversion would be vaginal depth roughly equivilent to the length of the penis measured along the underside from the base to the heat while erect. A graft from the scrotum can increase depth, as can use of a colon segment graft, or use of a colon segment in place of the penile inversion itself.

One Thai surgeon, Dr. Suporn, has developed a new technique that is very popular. He uses a skin graft from the lower belly, buttocks, or thigh as the vaginal lining. The skin from the shaft of the penis is split into two segments and used to form the labia minora, which results in much greater sexual sensation especially when directly stimulating the mons, as with a vibrator, and what has been reported as excellent sensation when having vaginal sex, because the tissues that get the most stimulation, those at the entrance, are from the far more sexually senstive penile skin rather than the less sensitive scrotal.

It can vary from as little as 2-3 inches if the penis is initially small and/or the surgeon doesn't do a good job, to as much as 6-7 inches. With a small penis, most surgeons will use a graft from the scrotum or a colon segment to increase depth, but the colon segment does add to the cost.

You're taking a chance with some of the less prominent Thai surgeons, but you're pretty safe with any big name American surgeon or the main Thai guys.

If there has been an orchiectomy, the scrotum will shrink. Shrinkage of the penis may occcur if the penis remains in a flaccid state all the time, as it does with many, perhaps most, but keep in mind that penile skin is desgined to shrink and expand. Once it's used as the lining of the vagina, it can be stretched back out to full size again.

The main issue with scrotal shrinkage is having enough tissue available for formation of the labia. This isn't an issue with Dr. Suporn's technique, or any technique involving a colon segment.

There are four general issues: depth, sensation, appearance, and urination, and all are important.

Depth is important for the obvious reason, that of being able to fully accommodate a partner. Sensation matters for the obvious reason. Appearance does come into play with a partner, but it's as much about feeling complete. A woman wants to feel pretty for herself, and having an attractive looking vagina is part of this for some MTF's.

A partner who is too large can be accommoded by using alternate positions, but obviously the girl wants to be able to handle her partner in any position.

For stealth purposes, both appearance and depth make a difference, but, just as with anything else, people will tend to believe what they want to believe. If a man sees something as being a little bit off, but has no reason to suspect otherwise, he's very unlikely to attribute it to anything but normal variance in female genetalia. And as I said earlier, most surgeons do produce an aesthetically acceptable result.

I personally don't think stealth with a sexual partner is a good idea, especailly with a long term partner, mostly for the protection of the girl involved. I do, however, understand why some transwomen choose not to reveal their past to casual sexual partners.

You're welcome, and thank you. Keep in mind that for a great many transsexuals, especially those who pass easily, their lifestyle is the same as any other woman's. It's just the path they took to womanhood that was different.

Did I say it was 30k for hair removal? That would be the extreme upper limit, and very rare if anyone does actually spend that much. Hormones help a lot on the body hair. Half that, however, isn't unusual.

Gilda

Trust me, he would use every penny of that $30K, sometimes I wonder if he is actually human. Fortunately for him, he is quite comfortable with his carpet....err.....hair. I heard a rumor that laser hair removal is ineffective on people with naturally red hair. I have no way to confirm this, but perhaps your research could (in)validate this rumor?

Just to show you how ignorant I was to the details of this process: until you brought up urination in building of the neo-vagina, I had completely forgot about that function! Sheesh, we do need to do that as well, don't we?!?

I will definitely try those links when I get home. I look forward to seeing the results that can be achieved.

Nope, it's not a rumor. A laser is nearly useless on red hair or on dark skin. The reason is that the laser uses high intensity light energy to kill the follicle. Light is absorbed more readily by things that are dark than by things that are light. The ideal combination is pale skin with black or dark brown hair. Sissy was fortunate in that she had exactly that combination. As the skin gets darker, it absorbs more of the energy, leaving less impacting the follicle, and as hair gets lighter, it absorbs less of the energy. Blonds and red-heads are out of luck when it comes to laser.

Yep. Urinating in a steady stream is a big milestone during recovery, and usually takes weeks before it occurs. The new girl has to learn how to use all her new girl parts, just like the rest of us do growing up.

Gilda

Lampajoo,

While I was a tad offended by your implied judgements, I offer you another point of view.

Over my life, I have begun to realize that our body is nothing more than the car our mind drives around. We have it repaired when it is broken; we wash it; we put fuel in it; and we modify it with piercings, haircuts, shaving, clothes, etc.

The difference between the car that our body drives and the "car" that our mind drives is that we don't really get to pick the model our mind drives. In Sissy's case, she drove away in a model "M" when she should have and wanted to drive away in an model "F". So, she took her car to the shop and had her car modified to suit her mind - nothing more, nothing less. It's really no different than painting your "real" car a different color, jacking it up, cutting out a sunroof, etc. In a feeble attempt to be pop-topical: She pimped her ride!

In conclusion, if the people riding in Sissy's new car like the way it looks, feels, and performs - then the people that matter are satisfied.

That is something that I wonder about from time to time. The Scene. So often one hears it called that and I have to wonder how accurate the portrayal of the scene is in movies and other media. We seem to see everything from “The Blue Oyster Bar” part of Police Academy to the bar scenes in Queer as Folk.

I just about have to suspect that clubs like that exist, or are at least embellished in movies and on TV, but I can’t imagine any of the gay people I know being a part of any of that. The gay people I know just seem like people who enjoy pretty much the same things I do except their sexual preferences. I live in an area where the nearest gay bar if there is one is an hour drive. I really have no way to see for myself.

And then there are the images that the media seems to show from gay rights protests and parades. Are these images and the scenes from TV and film a fair portrayal or senseless stereotypes? I imagine more the latter than the former but I honestly don’t know.

BTW, this thread is amazing. I’ve read where you have posted before about Sissy and assumed that she was your lesbian sister. I had no idea that she was a transsexual. More importantly I (and I imagine many others) knew very little of the information you have shared here. Not only are you obviously important to your sister and Grace, but you are an asset to the TFP. :thumbsup:

There are extremes like the leather bar you see in Police Academy, and there are more casual atmospheres that are basically just a regular bar or disco that happens to be frequented by chiefly gays. I think the extreme versions are likely more common at gay bars than at regular ones, but there is a good variance. One of the misconceptions about gay bars is that everyone in one is going to be gay, and that if a straight person goes into one, he/she'll be hit on all night long and there'll be a lot of hostility towards this straight person on "our turf". Not true. I suspect straight men would tend to be uncomfortable in a place aimed at gay guys, but you're going to find a good number of straight women who just happen to hang out with gay guys. Lesbian bars tend to be a bit more . . . subdued, casual, and most of the women wouldn't mind if a straight girl were to come in. Straight guys would be taking a bit more of a risk.

A drag club, like the ones we liked to go to occasionally back in California, has a good mix of people, gay and straight alike, and attracts a lot of straight guys. A lot of straight guys.

So yeah, the stuff you see there exists, and is more common in gay bars than straight bars, but it's far from the only thing you'll see. There's a big range.

Here's how it works, for the most part. It's like a comic book convention or the St. Patrick's day parade in Chicago. You might have 10,000 people acting like reasonable people and 20 people who fit the extreme stereotype, and those 20 will get all the coverage.

Sure, there wouldn't be those people to cover if they weren't there, and there are going to be events that are more extreme than others, and some are going to be populated by a large number of extremists, who are more likely to be attracted to such events.

It's a big variation from the mundane to the extreme, but for the most part, onlyt the extreme gets coverage.

When I think of the homosexual lifestyle, I get the image of a college professor and a nurse living quietly in an upscale condo, but, hey, that's just me.

Thank you. I'm glad it's been helpful.

Gilda

I have another question that I found myself wondering about today... What becomes of generally male or female health problems later in life? Things such as prostate problems or osteoporosis. Do these types of diseases or problems still occur and how is the treatment different if they do?

An MTF, particularly after the age of 40, faces two big potential problems, and you've identified one of them, osteoperosis. The other is breast cancer. Prostate cancer is also a risk, but not to the same degree.

Osteoperosis becomes a risk a lot earlier, particularly for those who transition young, like Sissy. The high dose cross-sex hormone treatment can lead to loss of bone density as early as the 20's, but becomes a bigger risk after the age of 40. Treatment is generally the same as for a post-hysterectomy or post-menopause woman, depending upon age.

MTF's have a greater incidence of breast cancer and benign cysts in the the breasts, and it's just as important for them to do regular breast exams and get mamograms once a year after the age of 40 as with biological women. Treatment is generally the same as with a biological woman.

The prostate gland is the only primary male sexual organ an MTF retains post-op. It shrinks in response to anti-androgens and estrogen, and the incidence of infections and cancer are a lot lower, and some of the medications used for their anti-androgenic properties are also used to treat the prostate. but a regular exam, especially after the age of 40, is still required.

Pre-ops have a greatly increased incidence of testicular cancer so long as they retain their testicles, and regular exams are necessary. Treatment for cancer is removal of the testicles, and if it's spread, treatment is as with anyone else. MTF's who don't have their testicles removed lose them anyway, as they stop producing the testosterone that helps maintain them, and the estrogen acts as an antagonist, eventually dissolving them over a period of 10-20 years. During the first few years, it's necessary to check regularly, though.

MTF's also tend to have some of the same gynecological problems as natal women, namely urinary tract infections, intravaginal infections, and cancer of the tissues or the neo-vagina.

The new gyno I just found for me and Sissy jokingly referred to having more than one patient getting a yearly M,P & P--mammogram, pelvic, and prostate exam.

One that you missed was loss of upper body muscular strength. MTF's lose so much upper body muscle mass that they become much, much weaker than they were as a male, in many cases debilitatingly weak even in comparison to a natal woman of the same height and weight. Sissy is only slightly taller than I am (she had her growth stunted in late puberty by the administration of anti-androgens, the poor thing :)) and weights some 10-15 pounds more, so she's roughly comperable in size, but she's already lost so much muscle in the upper body that I'm stronger up top than she is, and you can see from my picture that I'm not exactly the most muscular person. This loss of strength plateaus, but it does leave a lot of older MTF's very fragile in terms of ability to perform normal every day lifting tasks, especially when combined with loss of bone density.

In general the MTF has most of the same medical concerns as a post-hysterectomy natal woman, with a slightly greater chance of breast problems, and has a slight chance of prostate problems. The problems are treated for the most part as with anyone who has that same problem.

Diabetes is one of the more troublesome things that can happen to a transwoman, as type 2 diabetes has cross-sex hormones counter-indicated as a treatment, and prevents most surgical treatments. I have a friend in this situation; she can't take hormones or androgen blockers, and can't have any of the common surgeries. It's a real shame, because there's a significant positive correlation between type 2 diabetes and transsexualism in physical males--a physical male with type 2 diabetes is about 10 times as likely to be transsexual as a physical male without it (say a 1/1000 chance instead of a 1/10,000 chance).

Not that you asked, but there also seems to be a positive correlation between IQ and transsexualism in physical males; males with genius IQ's have a much higher incidence of transsexualism than those with normal IQ's by about a factor of 10. You'll also find that financial and professional success is positively correlated to transsexualism in males--there are a lot more engineers, doctors, lawyers, psychologists, and college professors out there who are MTF than construction workers or plumbers.

Sissy, by the way, has an IQ of a little over 170, or so it was when she was tested at about the age of 10. Nobody was surprised at this.

Gilda

Gilda,
I meant to thank you for the reply to this post when you made it the other day. The effort that you put into this is really amazing.

And it is interesting that you mentioned the relationship of IQs. While I've certainly not done any research I have always seemed to feel that those who were... I don't know... in touch with their sexuality seem to be intelligent and artistic.

Cimarron29414: I showed Sissy this, and she was absolutely delighted with it as a metaphor for being transsexual, and shared it with some friends at an MTF board where she's a member, and it's been well received there.

I've mentioned my friend Jen, a middle-aged MTF in mid-transition, and the last time I exchanged e-mails with her I paraphrased your car metaphor for her. She's having a really, really rough time right now and you managed to make her day with this. She e-mailed this back, trying to help me understand what she was feeling (I have permission to pass this along):

"Imagine that you not only feel uncomfortable in your body, but you hate it, to the point that you actively avoid mirrors and getting an inadvertant glance of yourself in the reflection of a store window is enough to make you cringe. Imagine looking at your clothes every morning and feeling sick at having to put them on, or flinching internally every time someone calls you "Sir". Imagine hating your body so much that it seems wrong and evil, and wanting to punish it by cutting or burning it to get back at it for causing you such emotional pain that the physical pain is a relief. Imagine hating your body so much that you regularly consider mutilating yourself to remove the most offensive parts, or commit suicide to remove them all.

That's what it feels like, for many, to be transsexual."

Gilda

Hey, I hate to bump this thread and my apologies for doing so (I was unable to send you a PM due to insufficient posts). Anyway, although for a majority of my life I've felt as a female presence and had experienced some degree of mental hallucination (not physically) in which my mind would tell me that my body was female, I've also felt somewhat masculine and androgenic. Other times however, I've felt extremely depressed about having a male body and have desperately wished for it to change by any means, and have contemplated suicide myriad times ergo to this.

I could correlate the depression of it to implicit peer pressure, in that -- it'd be inconsistent with a norm, and albeit if I did transition, I'd feel envy for those who attain the aesthetics, even in specifics (e.g. having a smaller nose) -- but this pressure also integrates the lack of a female reproductive system, and although I could adopt a child and settle for a neo vagina, I feel implicitly pressured to pass on the next generation through child birth. As a result, the pressure for wanting a female reproductive system has made me feel like I'd settle to be any species that's female. Depression pertaining to the desire to be female also relates to the lack of a female childhood and social experiences -- I felt that by transitioning, it'd introduce a major social conflict, even if gone stealth (e.g. social chit-chat relating to female childhood experiences would probably provoke discomfort). When taking hormones however, or if attaching some kind of feminine quality, I felt great and the negatives kinda suppress until I think a little deep about it -- the thoughts can also intervene if I feel that I can't identify as a female.

Conversely however, I've also felt slightly comfortable as a male, albeit this was seldom, coupled with what felt as male mentality. Most often however, if feeling male, I'd feel hopeless about life - I'd often anticipate the future as a void, attracting limited positive experience. Sexually, I feel that I would engage in experience with a female if provided the opportunity, but would prefer to take the role as a female. I've also taken that role a few times, and although most often attracted to female sexuality with little control over urge, I've never felt fully attracted to a male.

A few friends whom I've spoke to about a transition believe that the reason for this is due to the lack of experience with females - the most I've done is kissing, and that was once and I haven't had many social encounters with females (I've yet to find a legitimate relationship with a female -- I've had one which ended when she met me). The encounters that had transpired, and most which where with the intention of dating, where negative. In some state of mind, I also feel very pessimistic about females (which isn't entirely stemmed from attempts to date a female), with no hope in achieving reproduction and wish to rid my attraction to them. With each attempt to date and proceeding rejection, I experience a lot of depression with suicidal thoughts for months, which in turn reduces my ability to do the things I enjoy or wish to accomplish -- I feel very doubtful about living as a male (I'm 19). One also suggests that I increase my masculinity, but I fear that this would fail in attracting a female and would destroy any chance in an opportunity for a transition.

Despite a correlation between the lack of experience with females, I've also felt the desire to be female before I hit puberty but had also felt attracted to females at around the age of 3.

Apologies for this babble, but I'm wondering if this is truly transgender-ism, and whether it'd be advised to transition (I feel very tempted to do so but one other block that's somewhat impeding is aging (granted that this is inevitable, but I fear that at some point, even if I did find an appearance that adhered to my female self, that it'd die over time), but I also feel that I might be happy if identified as female). Here's a link to my original thread for further info: tfproject.org/tfp/tilted-sexuality/147477-achieving-prostate-orgasm-how-do-i-do.html

Any help is greatly appreciated! :) Also Gilda, you're a wonderful person and deserve all the respect in the world for the support you provided your sister!

I have a question. With a MTF what do they do with the removed penis?

I hate to be the bringdown here, but Gilda hasn't been active in this community for several years now. You're not likely to get answers from her here, unfortunately.

I believe they invert it and it becomes the inside of the new vagina. Not sure, though.

Read the thread - the explanation is in it already. :)

How do you think that "finding out" will happen?

Well - if you mean a post-op mtf, then I presume (excluding study of a ratio of finger length, which I believe is a relatively robust way if identifying "gestational gender") only a close examination of the genitals or an admission of the situation are the ways someone will "find out". In that case, if someone has already given you the blowjob, it would be churlish to be cross at their revalation - the worst you should do is thank them and not go on another date.

Personally, I take the approach that if it walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, it's a duck.

I'm sad that Gilda isn't around anymore! I just saw this thread today when it was bumped and i fell in love with it. I wish she were still around!

^^ Me too Salem, I was back-reading before I realized it's age, now I am wondering how Gilda and Sissy are doing. I hope they are well.

Me to! I hope all is well with them both. I checked her profile and there doesnt seem to be any way to contact them, so i guess i'll just send some good energy their way.

Me too. I always enjoyed Gilda's posts. And from her I learned about "involuntary insertions," which has nothing to do with sex. Or gender either.

Lindy

So much of our existences has nothing to do with sex & gender that I've always been more than a little mystified that it's so fucking distracting. A few weeks ago, my younger son showed me "BME", & I became more than a little squeamish. When I gave my nieces & nephews "The Years of Rice & Salt" a number of years ago, & the didn't give any feedback, I became convinced it was because they didn't read beyond the eunuchization incident at the beginning. A character in "Priscilla, Queen of The Desert" said something about her parents never talking to her again after she had "the chop". I've elsewhere alluded to loving my penis & to wishing I had a womb. We're a funny species; all I hope is for us to be happy with ourselves & each other.

I'm sure I'm not the only one to see this thread pop back up in the "new posts" resulsts and hope that Gilda gets an e-mail notification that it has been replied to.

Ok so I want surgery details. I read that steroids can be used to elongate the clitoris into as much as a 3 inch penis. Would that make the clitopenis uber sensitive? I mean most clits aren't directly exposed like that because they can be easily overstimulated. So would a FTM transsexual have to desensitize themselves somehow? And what exactly happens to the vagina? Do the surgeons just leave it in between the labia which they turn into balls? Or do they sew it shut? And if they sew it shut, how is that even hygienic? I don't mean to sound like a moron, but I am very curious.

Cimarron, That was so well put and just really neat to read. I hope you don't mind that I brought it back to the front, I think you explained it beautifully.