Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community - Sexual pleasure and religion

- Tilted Sexuality (https://thetfp.com/tfp/tilted-sexuality/)

- - Sexual pleasure and religion (https://thetfp.com/tfp/tilted-sexuality/87945-sexual-pleasure-religion.html)

Sexual pleasure and religion

This poll is motivated by this news article I read today; the choices on the poll assume that sex is between two (or more) people.

I know next to nothing about Judaism, and was pleasantly surprised to learn that:

"The message that sexuality is good is deeply rooted in the Judaic tradition, whose Talmud -- commentaries on the Old Testament -- states that when people die, they appear before God to account for all the legitimate pleasures in life that they denied themselves."

So, I guess, if you ever don't take the opportunity to have pleasurable sex, then after you die you'll have to explain why to God, for every time you did this. I like that philosophy :)

Quote:

The Dallas Morning News

April 13, 2005, Wednesday

SECTION: LIFESTYLE

HEADLINE: Connecting sexuality and spirit

BYLINE: By Toni Weingarten

DALLAS -- There was a time when someone wanting to talk about sex would seek understanding anywhere but at church. Religion, after all, has often preached sex as sin - a dirty and shameful urge, something far from sacred spirit, and best left alone.

Well, times have changed.

"You go back to Hebrew Scriptures in Genesis and it says God saw all that he'd created and found it good," said Sister Lorita Moffatt, of the Catholic Mercy Center in Burlingame, Calif. "When we really connect with our sexuality, that connects us with God, and that moves us to different levels of awareness and consciousness of what it means to be sexual."

Human sexuality should be viewed as a gift from God, said the Rev. Ron Rolheiser, president of the Oblate School of Theology in San Antonio, Texas.

"In its purest teaching, which wasn't always evident, the church has always taught that sex is a sacred force, not sinful," said Father Rolheiser, author of "The Holy Longing," an often-quoted book on the human desire to connect, spiritually and sexually.

He acknowledged that for most of history this teaching hasn't been the most popular.

Historically, Father Rolheiser said, the church has viewed itself as a defender of family life -- and, therefore, it's been extremely cautious in its approach to the potent force of human sexuality.

While that's led many church leaders to want to suppress frank discussions of sex, he said, "the church ... is a massive organization that has millions of people speaking for it ... At its purest best, the church has always taught that sex is not sinful."

Father Ron and Sister Lorita represent a fresh movement in Christian spirituality, one recognizing sexuality as an integral part of being human and not something to be set apart from spirit. In their view, cultures err when they separate sex from spirit, thereby reducing sex to a physical act divorced from a desire to be closer to others, and to God.

Bishop T.D. Jakes of the Potter's House in southeast Dallas said in an interview on Beliefnet.com that sex remains one of the church's taboo subjects, "and because we never talk about them, we open up doors for them to be misappropriated."

He added, "We're taught to believe that being a Christian means that you should have no interest in (sex) ... It's so hypocritical because in reality it's part of the human experience."

The result when people suppress healthy discussion of sexuality is, "either they don't talk about it, or on the other extreme, that's all they talk about," Bishop Jakes said.

While you may not have heard this message on sexuality from your pulpit, it is spreading. And one who is spreading it is Tommy Nelson, pastor of Denton Bible Church. He teaches a nationally acclaimed seminar on the Song of Songs (also known as the Song of Solomon), the Old Testament book in which Solomon woos, weds and experiences love -- physical and emotional -- with his wife.

Nelson said many Christians have viewed sex as original sin, only to be endured -- even in marriage -- for procreation.

Why?

He said mankind has a tendency to think that anything enjoyable must be bad for us. The church, he said, has a pattern of "throwing out the baby, the bathwater and the rubber ducky" when it comes to pleasurable things like music, films -- and sex.

"There are a lot of errant notions in movies, and it's easier to throw them all out than to think critically," he said.

The Bible, he said, clearly states that sex is to be enjoyed -- within the confines of marriage. He quotes this advice to newlyweds in the Song of Songs 5:1: "Eat friends, drink and imbibe deeply, oh lovers."

The message that sexuality is good is deeply rooted in the Judaic tradition, whose Talmud -- commentaries on the Old Testament -- states that when people die, they appear before God to account for all the legitimate pleasures in life that they denied themselves. This is a passage that Sandra Lommasson, a 56-year-old Protestant, recounts when she works as a spiritual director at the Bread of Life Center in Davis, Calif. She also teaches workshops on sexuality and spirituality to spiritual directors around the country.

Spiritual direction is an ancient practice -- based in part on the teachings of St. Ignatius -- used to guide people in their quest for spiritual enlightenment. It is one realm in which religion's newfound positive message on sexuality takes prominence.

Spiritual direction is not therapy. In direction, people don't analyze their situation; they seek to know, and be known by, the mystery of God.

But, as in therapy, feelings arise in spiritual direction -- all kinds of feelings.

Spiritual directors say that as people get more connected to God and spirit, they often become more physically attuned as well. This stirring surprises, and even alarms, some who were taught that sex has no place around God.

"I had been someone who did not live much in my body for most of my life," said Lommasson. "We live in a very disembodied culture, so that wasn't that unusual. I had fallen in love with God but it was pretty much of an idea, because that was safer. I ... left the body behind for the realm of spirit."

Marjorie Hoyer Smith, 66, a Presbyterian minister and another spiritual director with Bread of Life, said she grew up in a conservative church where sex education consisted of "Don't!" and "Keep your legs together!"

Such attitudes, she said, reduce sex to "being just about intercourse, almost pornographic."

Steven Wirth, 45, a practicing Catholic and a spiritual director in Louisville, Ky., said: "In Western culture we tend to think of sexuality as a physical need -- and so it becomes mechanical -- I'm hungry so I need to eat.

"If it's only a need ... there's not a depth there, or an integrity with my soul, spirit and life. I'm suggesting that there is in us, at our very core, the energy to ... connect and share love."

Smith said people who come to her for direction from conservative religious backgrounds are often uncomfortable with their sexual feelings.

"You can tell they want to talk about it but they skirt around it, their cheeks get red, they don't know how to broach the subject," she said. She advises them, "One can expand one's ability to be sensual -- taste that delicious pear, feel the sun against your skin, appreciate male and female, enjoy their presences -- but not flip over into the sexual."

Nelson said he likes to counsel people on the joys of "re-creational sex." That's not the same as recreational sex.

In re-creational sex, he said, a husband and wife revisit their honeymoon. They take time to talk gently with one another, treat each other kindly and enjoy each other in sex. They re-create their original love.

Whether sex is to be enjoyed only within marriage is a point of disagreement among those interviewed for this story. However, all agree that sex is about the deepest form of connection with others -- and with God -- and therefore those who think it can be casual are fooling themselves.

"You can watch TV any given night -- watch 'Sex and the City' -- and get the sense that sex can be recreational, casual, and if some people want to make it deep, they can," said Father Rolheiser. "As if it is a power that we can set the parameters for."

Unlike sitcom characters, he said, real people have deep instincts, "soul things ... jealousy and murderous rage," that can surface when sexual relationships go awry -- such as when a partner has an affair or when we treat sex as mere entertainment.

"We live in a world with mixed signals," the priest said. "So much around us says (sex) can be casual, and there's a whole lot inside of us that says it can't be."

Lommasson favors the metaphor of sex as a sacred fire, one that must be carefully tended to warm and nurture us. Treated carelessly and allowed to run wild, it can cause destruction, she said.

"We need to stay energized -- on fire -- but integrated, together," she said.

Nelson agreed. "History and experience bear it out that sex is a bad thing when it's done indiscriminately."

And for those who think that joining sex and religion makes for a dull combination, one nun says not so.

"Sacred doesn't mean it can't be playful," said Sister Lorita. "The deeper the relationship, the more serious, playful, intimate -- all of that -- you can be."

http://www.nwanews.com/story_print.p...storyid=113685

where's the option for "I'm male and not religious at all --sex is a great thing"?

Anyway, I don't really see how one can say that sex is a bad thing in or out of marriage. God (assuming his validity) created man and woman to be together and made them so there could be pleasure involved. It was man who decided that there should be rules and regulations to this.

i tend to beleive that committed relationship is necessary for healthy sexual interaction, but i tend to hold that this is in the realm of Christian freedom, that the individual believer makes up her or his mind about what to do, accountable to God and to the individuals with which he or she interacts.

touch, including sexual contact, can be a deeply meaningful spiritual experience.

Quote:

Originally Posted by guccilvr

where's the option for "I'm male and not religious at all --sex is a great thing"?

That's what I would have chosen as well.

I'm not religious now, but I voted the way I was raised to make a point.

I was raised with the idea that sex is a healthy and beautiful, yet sinful and putrid act. This contradiction kinda screwed up my perspective on sex for a long time.

Quote:

Originally Posted by raveneye

"The message that sexuality is good is deeply rooted in the Judaic tradition, whose Talmud -- commentaries on the Old Testament -- states that when people die, they appear before God to account for all the legitimate pleasures in life that they denied themselves."

Yep! Having sex is a mitzvah--a "good/right/holy thing", sort of the Jewish equivalent of a sacrement. Sex on the Sabbath is a double mitzvah!

If I were interested in being religious, I'd give serious consideration to converting to Judaism.

Funny that a priest and nun, who are vowed to celebacy, would say so much about sex.

Anyway, I says, sex is a gift from God to be enjoyed with the one to whom you've committed yourself (i.e. your spouse).

IT'S ABOUT TIME!!! I'm so glad that SOMEONE is finally stepping up to the plate and saying "hey, you know, the bible said that God said that 'It's ALL good'!"

I was raised baptist, and even though I'm not "Christian" anymore, I would take up a placard and walk all over the country to get this POV into more Christian churches. I hate that Christians think that they are bad people just because there's "sin" in this world. God didn't put us on earth to be unhappy- tho I've heard PLENTY of people in my church going days say that God didn't put us on the earth to be happy. Christanity, at it's core, in my understanding, is a joyous, happy, loving, exciting religion. Jesus was a happy, happy man- and Christains are supposed to emulate Jesus, right?

Score one for the "moral majority!"

As a Pagan.....we not only value sex....we use it at times. There is far too much to be gained by an understanding of what sex can become, to let it die with a book.

Quoting from the "Sexuality" section of Faith and Practice(1972)

Quote:

Friends have believed that casual or promiscuous sexual relations are wrong. Friends know that such relationships are widely practiced today, often quite openly; but they have not changed their belief. Self-discipline is an important factor of life and to take something because it is there for the having does not give the taking any validity.

...

We believe that sexual gratification and joy are best achieved in a mature marriage relationship.

Quakers are pretty stuck up -- or were 30 years ago. I feel the need for a new F&P for the current age, but I guess if Friends were against sexual relationship during the era of free love, what will they be like with the new wave of Puritanism sweeping the country?

While I avoid religion, I do have quite a sense of spirituality and I believe that sex is a positive way to connect (on SO many levels). It's an excellent way of communicating, healing yourself, healing someone else, reliving stress and tension... Hell, it's even a fast way to get a great ass. :lol: I don't view sex as anything to be ashamed of, though it took me a while to come to this understanding within myself. I view sex as healthy, beautiful, and necessary for personal well-being.

Quote:

Originally Posted by joeshoe

...Anyway, I says, sex is a gift from God to be enjoyed with the one to whom you've committed yourself (i.e. your spouse).

I agree! My only consern when answering the poll was the definition of marriage. Is it when you commit yourself to eachother before God, or when you sign a paper saying you are marriaged? I would love to know the biblical definition of marriage!

i am with tecoyah on this one. I believe that sex is a powerful act to be used as well as to be enjoyed.

it is a shame when I see people have such twisted (in my opinion and to my viewpoints) views of sex that they refuse it to themselves even when they truly wish for it. However, each person has their own opinions.

Quote:

Originally Posted by guccilvr

where's the option for "I'm male and not religious at all --sex is a great thing"?

LOL, you apparently missed an IF statement there: "If you are religious, etc etc... [here comes the poll]:" etc etc :D

My girlfriend and I were discussing this once afterwards (I know, not the most romantic pillow talk, bear with me). She's catholic and from a fairly traditional family, whereas I'm not at all (what you'd call a strong agnostic, for anyone interested). When we got around to the subject, she told me something that I thought sums it up pretty well. She said "if He didn't want us to do it, it wouldn't feel so good."

Not religious now, but in my previous beliefs, sex is accepted as a natural act of animal instinct.

I wanna know who said sex is for procreation only.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Martian

And this holds true for everything? Stealing, murdering, raping, etc? As long as it feels good it must be right?

Quote:

Originally Posted by elsesomebody

And this holds true for everything? Stealing, murdering, raping, etc? As long as it feels good it must be right?

The difference is that sex (when consensual) doesn't harm anyone.

I am Episcopalian and my church tries to pretend sex doesn't exist, because they all had sex premaritally and think that it's ok but are too embarassed to admit it. Needless to say, I had to find my own opinions on my own, especially with a mother telling me that men are evil soul-sucking nazis and a father trying to dress me like a whore so I'd look "pretty."

I think that sex, in and of itself, means little more than eating. It's something we're programmed to do. But, like eating, the value of sex is what you do with it. If you eat whatever's easy and sweet, you'll get sick; and while the analogy isn't literal, if you aren't careful with how and when and who you have, you can find yourself pregnant and infected with HIV.

On the other hand, you can be a gourmet, gain skills in the kitchen, and serve up healthy and delicious food three times a day. And that's how sex should be, especially if you eat your meals in good company. With melted cheese.

I was raised Catholic, and was taught that sex is a filthy, awful, sinful thing and that you should save it and share it only with your husband.

Currently a Unitarian, and we believe that sex can be a vehicle through which you can touch your own spirit and that of your partner, and anything that enhances your spirit and brings you closer to other people is a good thing.

Quote:

Originally Posted by elsesomebody

And this holds true for everything? Stealing, murdering, raping, etc? As long as it feels good it must be right?

elsesomebody, I think you misunderstand the intent there. This is a specific reference to sex and religion and you're applying it to sin in general (also known as the logical fault of dicto simpliciter, or a generalisation). It's sort of the equivalent of saying that since going 75 mph on the interstate is okay, it must be okay in the suburbs too. Clearly not the case, as with the other situations the well being of others must be taken into account (as with sex, but that's implicit in the discussion).

If you can think of another activity that feels good and does no harm, then yes it would apply, although that wasn't implicit in my original statement.

If she's Catholic then the analogy holds up quite nicely, since God says don't have pre-marital sex and he also says don't steal.

Sex is one of the greatest pleasures that God gave us but it is to be used only within his guidelines.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gilda

Currently a Unitarian, and we believe that sex can be a vehicle through which you can touch your own spirit and that of your partner, and anything that enhances your spirit and brings you closer to other people is a good thing.

Gilda, very interesting... is Unitarian the same as Universalist? I've been more and more interested in universalism since walking away from my more conservative teen/college years... of course, being an anthropologist who preaches cultural relativism, it's obvious why I'm attracted to it. That and I heartily respect Thoreau and his ilk (I believe they were Unitarians as well, right? All about transcendentalism...).

The Unitarians and Universalists joined in 1961 in the United States. The name of the church is Unitarian/Universlist. We're non-denominational in the true sense of the word. Our church has Christians, Jews, Muslums, agnostics, secular humanists, lapsed Catholics (me), Shintoists (Grace), and people from three or four other groups.

Short answer, yes it's the same. The main difference bewteen us and mainstream Chriistianity/Judaism/Islam is that for us, spirituality is primarily about your life and spirit here on earth, not about doing things to please God to get a reward after you die.

The only time I say HIS name and mean it, is during sex.

maryjane, nice one. Very nice. :D

Gilda, fascinating stuff, even if it is slightly threadjacking. Where do atheists belong, then? or can they be considered secular humanists? Do they need to believe in God in order to join the community? (we could start another thread)

If an atheist wants to come, he or she is welcome. Belief in God isn't necessary. Anyone who respects the other members and their beliefs we're happy to have.

I was raised catholic, in a catholic school, I don't know if I'm catholic anymore. To me, sex is something beautiful that one can share with the one they love. Marriage is more of a legal document to me, of course, it becomes the way society looks at things. I think that the necessary ingredient of sex is love. That is all..

Jdermit101 - I don't think that follows. Her family is traditional catholic, she's not (as is evidenced by the fact that we're having sex). To a traditional catholic, yeah it's the same although even then I'm not sure that one would be considered as bad as the other. But I think the idea behind the statement is that He's given us a way to express our love and wants us to use it.

I don't think stealing feels good but I'm also a bit of a moral relativist - I'm well aware that a lot of my morality comes from my upbringing and that what I think is right may not be agreed with by someone else. I could go into it a bit further, but I don't want to get too far off topic here.

maryjane - aptly put.

From my understanding, Buddhism does not fit any of those categories. Or rather, it fits multiple categories, yet not those exact categories because the wording would be wrong. Someone more learned in Buddhism than I may have to correct my statements. If not, good for me. :)

Sex as a product of Kama, which would be considered normal lustful sex is a bad thing. Not that it is "sinful", but it is a hindrance to the path of enlightenment as it is a selfish love. When one employs maitri, benevolent and selfless love, it can be connected with sex, and sex in this context is not bad, as it does not hinder enlightenment.

I don't necessarily fully agree with this very basic understanding of it, as I believe the dynamic is much more complex than what I stated. I don't have the time to write up a 2000 word dissertation on what I exactly am trying to say though. But, that's pretty much the rudimentary understanding of it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by la petit moi

The difference is that sex (when consensual) doesn't harm anyone.

Don't forget about STDs, and pulling muscles or tendons.

Quote:

Originally Posted by la petite moi

The difference is that sex (when consensual) doesn't harm anyone.

Stangely enough, it seems to be the main reason that the Catholics disapprove of premarital sex is that it does harm someone: namely the potential child, who will not grow up in a traditional family.

I guess if you are protecting yourself than it's a different matter entirely.

I'm Catholic. I pretty much ignore that section of my religion. Intercourse is for procreation only, and only between married people. Screw that. Without getting religious on the whole subject, I (in my opinion) firmly believe God wants me to be happy. So, sex = yay!

i personally do not agree with the baptist beliefs regarding sex, even though i was raised baptist. they pretty much teach that sex is ok within a marriage, but not outside it. it's not widely discussed or anything, and they don't really want sex ed taught in school. that's funny imo because alot of times the parents don't inform their kids at home about being safe or anything, and that is why the schools ventured to have sex ed in the first place. i think informed kids having safe sex is way better than having our teen population spread AIDS and STD's and get pregnant. in my hometown, kids were gonna have sex one way or another, so it's not like the "abstinence is the best policy" stuff really did any good. but oh well.
i think sex is natural and fun as long as you're safe.

I'm Catholic and was raised that way - have gone to Catholic schools for 12 of 16 years. In gradeschool, I was taught that sex "is spiritually positive and valuable, but only within marriage." Now, in college, I have had the opportunity to explore Catholicism more deeply with various classes and discussions with Catholic theologians (who are, admittedly, on the more liberal end of the Catholic theological spectrum) and I hold a belief very similar to Suave's description of Buddhism's view. In my opinion, this stance is the real basis for most religious views regarding sex. The problem is, it's so much easier and less complicated to just say, "don't have sex before marriage" and beat it into people. The biggest failure of religion, I think, is that so many religious leaders and religious people fail to recognize that "rules" are derived from experience, and "rules" are irrelevent without being informed by experience. Sex in a loving, committed relationship most certainly has more capabilities for "goodness." But sex itself is not bad, it just IS. It can become a hindrence to "enlightenment" as the Buddhists call it, or "salvation" as some Christians may call it (I do believe that salvation and enlightenment are basically the same in essence, as opposed to the more fundementalist belief regarding what salvation is) if one becomes to attached to the physical world (think of it as a form of materialism if you will), but it can also just be sex. I don't think all sex outside of marriage is bad, nor do I think all sex within marriage is good. But I do think that sex at its best within marriage is MORE good than sex at its best outside of marriage.