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Old 02-19-2005, 02:54 PM   #1 (permalink)
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Abortion

You know, I hear from a lot of people and a lot of places that abortion is the *best* way to go.

That gets me so upset because when you realize it, you could easily put the kid up for adoption. If you are catholic, you should know that from the moment of conception, life is formed. Aborting it is killing it. That's a mortal sin...


Did you know that the average wait time for adoption is 7-10 years? People think that if they put their baby up for adoption the baby will never find a loving home or family...no. There are thousands of people just waiting for a kid. Many of them are even willing to take in mentally challenged kids and handicapped kids.

There was this loving couple who wanted to adopt. After roughly 8 years of waiting, they got their baby. After a day or two, the baby started to foam at the mouth and showed extreme symptoms. The parents brought it to the hospital to find out that the baby had AIDS. How devastated do you think that couple was? 8 years of waiting and after 1 day it's all gone.

If you or somone you know is pregnant and is considering abortion, please consider adoption as well. Many couples who don't want to have sex, or who are infertile really want a child and have to wait so long. Did you also know that the adopters also pay the full bill? Something like that could end up costing the adopter 10-20 thousand dollars...you get all your expenses paid, so please consider!

This is just my little rant.
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Old 02-19-2005, 02:59 PM   #2 (permalink)
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I am going to make a random guess ... that most pregnant women *do* consider their options...and make whichever they feel they can at the time (may or may not be the 'right' decision)...who's to say?
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Old 02-19-2005, 03:13 PM   #3 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tamdarkdeamon
If you are catholic, you should know that from the moment of conception, life is formed. Aborting it is killing it. That's a mortal sin...
And there lies the issue. The majority of people in the U.S. aren't Catholic. To my knowledge, mortal sin is strictly a Catholic thing. Medical science and many other religions disagree with the "human life starts at conception" concept. Why should Catholics be allowed to impose their religious beliefs on the rest of us?
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Old 02-19-2005, 03:19 PM   #4 (permalink)
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But, life DOES begin at conception. A baby feels pain in a short time period after conception. I forget the time frame. They have fingerprints. A heart beat. I'm not sure there's much more to be said against that, really.
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Old 02-19-2005, 03:38 PM   #5 (permalink)
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Oy. Another abortion thread. Can we just cut to the chase and agree that the jury's out on the whole "when life begins" question, and agree to disagree civilly? I appreciate your plea for consideration of adoption, and I think saying that ANY solution to an unwanted pregnancy - whether it's adoption or abortion - is "the best way to go" is overly simplistic. Every woman's situation is different, and every woman has a right to make that decision for herself and live with whatever consequences that decision brings. Hopefully a woman who finds herself faced with an unwanted pregnancy has good friends and a support system to help her come to the decision that's right for her.
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Old 02-19-2005, 04:28 PM   #6 (permalink)
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Case for abortion:
-no one has to know (I personally think this is a horrible case to make, but I believe it is one of the primary reasons abortion is done)
-no pregnancy and birth to go through
-less emotional pain when deciding to "give up" the baby

Case for adoption:
-you don't have to kill anything
-you can give a child to people who want to adopt
-it is an opportunity to "continue your bloodline" or "pass on your genes" or whatever you want to call it

People will choose one or the other based on essentially these merits (unless I've missed a big one or two). The end.
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Old 02-19-2005, 04:29 PM   #7 (permalink)
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Thanks for expressing yourself here tamdarkdeamon . . .
Everyone has their own choices, having known someone who was adopted . . . i know it's a great decision, having known someone who had an abortion, that was also a great decision . . . It's different for every woman.
I think the point that you are making is to really think deeply about the options one has . . . I accept anyone's choice as long as they think it through, which i think the majority of people do.
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Old 02-19-2005, 05:14 PM   #8 (permalink)
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As long as our birthday is the day we pop out of the juicy womb....!!!. Okay that's not the best way to start this.


Me personally I would love to take the responsibility of parenthood if the situation arises and I have a child, but I'm also the male side of this and that's 9 months I don't have to deal with something inside me. I'm pro choice, but if I was a women, my babies would all be born.
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Old 02-19-2005, 05:32 PM   #9 (permalink)
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Ironically, I'm here because of abortion. Yep, that's right. My mom got pregnant before she met my dad, had an abortion, and knew she could never do it again...thus my parents got married, my brother was born, and I followed. I have to be thankful my mom made that choice to give up her first baby or I wouldn't be here and I wouldn't have had the chance to bring my son into the world. While I don't think that I could have an abortion, I respect other women's choices in the matter.
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Old 02-19-2005, 05:53 PM   #10 (permalink)
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Like Sin said, most women probably do consider their choices. That's why I believe there should ALWAYS be a choice (and I still say this despite the fact that after four abortions, my mother was considering aborting me...but here I am).

About adoption, personally, I believe there are way too many children in poverty already. Why not adopt a baby that is starving in Africa or something?
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Old 02-19-2005, 05:54 PM   #11 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DEI37
But, life DOES begin at conception. A baby feels pain in a short time period after conception. I forget the time frame. They have fingerprints. A heart beat. I'm not sure there's much more to be said against that, really.
So, how do you know the baby feels? Does the baby tell you this?
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Old 02-19-2005, 06:09 PM   #12 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by la petite moi
So, how do you know the baby feels? Does the baby tell you this?
Pain is electrical pulses, they probably recorded this
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Old 02-19-2005, 06:16 PM   #13 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Konichiwaneko
Pain is electrical pulses, they probably recorded this

Electrical pulses don't necessarily mean pain though. The ability to percieve pain is required too.
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Old 02-19-2005, 07:08 PM   #14 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by filtherton
Electrical pulses don't necessarily mean pain though. The ability to percieve pain is required too.
oh I agree, but when it comes to feeling it's an electrical pulse and our body convulses and reacts to it. Maybe that in itself is evidence enough to support the fact that babies feel pain or pleasure. If you stimulate a babies nerves with pulses, and they react ...this maybe what the whole test is based on.

Same arguement could be brought up about how baby boys who get circumsized young don't feel pain because they don't remember. I sure hope they feel pain though, because like 90% of them pass out right as it's cut.
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Old 02-19-2005, 07:32 PM   #15 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DEI37
But, life DOES begin at conception.
At the moment of conception, you have a single cell fertilized egg. If you believe this to be human life, I respect your belief. However, you need to understand that this is based on religous criteria, not medical or scientific ones.

Lurkette is right, this is an old argument without a solution. You either believe that human life begins at conception or you don't.
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Old 02-19-2005, 07:35 PM   #16 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Konichiwaneko
Pain is electrical pulses, they probably recorded this
There are no nerves present at conception. It takes about 6-8 weeks before somewhat recognizeable neuroanatomy starts to appear. Add another 5-6 months before the brain is minimally useful for anything.

Anyway, even when the nerves have formed, and you can record activity, it doesn't mean much. You can also record "pain" in a lobster if you want to define it so loosely... A lobster will also "react" to stimuli in a way that might be interpreted as a perception of pain.

Of course a baby is alive, but so is that lobster. I think that when people say a developing baby "isn't alive" in abortion arguments, they mean that it is not (yet) self-aware. I don't really like using that term, but it's the closest thing I can think of right now to what I have in mind.

Last edited by stingc; 02-19-2005 at 07:38 PM..
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Old 02-19-2005, 08:44 PM   #17 (permalink)
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...and lets not forget that there are mortalities with childbirth itself. Not all women go through this experience with ease. There is a chance of dying giving birth. And of course, not all pregnancies make it to term either.
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Old 02-19-2005, 09:35 PM   #18 (permalink)
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This debate is so tired...personally, although I believe that life begins at conception, I also support abortion. Shocking, I know. There is one consideration I don't recall seeing mentioned here:

According to the World POP Clock projection, found on the US Census Bureau website here, the current world population is 6,419,856,854. It's not like there's any shortage of people - we are overbreeding ourselves into a real mess here.

The ancient tribal cultures upon whose traditions most religions today are based encouraged people to be fruitful and multiply because that would encourage survival of their particular gene pool and cultural group. It also made sense due to high mortality rates and the need for labor. We live in a radically different world today. I personally don't believe there is anything inherently good about the notion of bringing more human lives into this world.

As for the folks who want to adopt...sorry, I don't know what to say about that. I think that might just be one of those "too bad" kind of things.

Last edited by Squishor; 02-19-2005 at 09:41 PM..
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Old 02-19-2005, 11:02 PM   #19 (permalink)
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I'm not even sure why this thread exists in this forum. This is hardly a sexuality issue...this is a human rights/philosophy/religion/living issue. Sure the act of creating that baby is a sexual one but there's no sexual relevance in having an abortion or giving a child up for adoption.
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Old 02-19-2005, 11:10 PM   #20 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by lunchbox
I'm not even sure why this thread exists in this forum. This is hardly a sexuality issue...this is a human rights/philosophy/religion/living issue. Sure the act of creating that baby is a sexual one but there's no sexual relevance in having an abortion or giving a child up for adoption.

Point well taken, maybe though it's appropriate. To remind people that there is consequences to our pleasures, and that it is a very real subject to many of us here.
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Old 02-20-2005, 10:54 AM   #21 (permalink)
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while i appreciate your plea for adoption, i'm not sure what this story has to do with it...

Quote:
Originally Posted by tamdarkdeamon
There was this loving couple who wanted to adopt. After roughly 8 years of waiting, they got their baby. After a day or two, the baby started to foam at the mouth and showed extreme symptoms. The parents brought it to the hospital to find out that the baby had AIDS. How devastated do you think that couple was? 8 years of waiting and after 1 day it's all gone.
is that a case of why adoption is a good thing? or are you trying to say people shouldn't put their children up for adoption unless they are healthy because it is traumatic for adoptive parents? not sure i understand how this comes into play.

at any rate, i'm very pro-choice (which is not the same as being pro-abortion). i'm not against adoption at all, i think it is a great thing--provided the woman in question is willing to go through with it.

but i'd also like to mention that adoption is not an alternative to abortion. adoption is an alternative to parenthood. abortion terminates pregnancy, if you want to give a child up for adoption you still have to go through with pregnancy first. if i had an unplanned pregnancy my initial options are to continue with the pregnancy or not (abortion). if i make the choice to continue the pregnancy, i'm faced with the options of raising a child or putting it up for adoption.

for women who can't (or won't), for whatever reasons, go through pregnancy, adoption is not an option. perhaps someday it will be, but right now it isn't.
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Old 02-20-2005, 03:18 PM   #22 (permalink)
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I'm seriously tired of the argument against abortion because there are people out there who can't have kids and who want them....

What about these kids?


While well intentioned, no pics of kids are allowed on TFP!

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These are just a handful of the 250+ kids desperately waiting for permanent adoptive homes in Louisiana. Their only crime? Not being cute, cuddly babies. If you have room in your heart and home for a child, then these children should be the first ones considered. And until they are, and until there are no more of these kids waiting for homes, I will continue to fight for a woman's right to choose an abortion.
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Old 02-20-2005, 04:48 PM   #23 (permalink)
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Bryndian_Dhai: very good point, i completely agree.
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Old 02-20-2005, 04:49 PM   #24 (permalink)
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i think that their are 2 big reasons younger people (17-25) go through with abortion:

1.) you are now pregnant. in today's society, seeing a someone who's 18 and pregnant gives people ideas. is this person a slut? how is she going to raise this kid at her age? how could she be that stupid?

an image is formed...and most often its the wrong image. young people have to live with people staring/glaring and the comments for a good 4 months. that's too long to take.

2.) being pregnant is a 9 month hold on your life. you are responsible for this developing baby inside you....so drinking, smoking, social environments are off limits. no more having the same kind of fun that you have been used to for years.
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Old 02-20-2005, 08:40 PM   #25 (permalink)
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I am a male and feel completely unqualified to make a judgement on abortion. The male opinion on the subject is insignificant when compared to the impact this issue has on women. I am also strongly against a bunch of old men in suits making a decision that affects all women. Frankly, I think it should be put to referendum in the US and only the women get to vote on it.
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Old 02-21-2005, 04:27 PM   #26 (permalink)
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I don't agree with abortion myself but every situation is different. My brother and his first wife lost two sons, first was stillborn at 6 months, the other died from SIDS at a month old, after that his wife suffered medical problems of her own and died. His second wife was older than he was and never could conceive. He would be a GREAT dad and I know what your saying about how couples who can't have children would adopt unwanted babies. But as Bryndian Dhai pointed out what about all the children who are already in the system???
You have to look at the circumstances surrounding a woman choosing an abortion. I'm pregnant now and due in a couple more weeks and have had an excellent pregnancy, but I know there are people who have a lot of complications, and maybe people just don't want to take the chance for a baby they aren't keeping anyway. Not to mention the time off from work that a single woman maybe can't afford.
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Old 02-22-2005, 01:58 PM   #27 (permalink)
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First off, put the Catholic view of abortion away. I was raised Catholic, and the crap that church dishes out makes me want to puke when I hear about the molestation that they continaully knew about & covered up. That organization is crooked in a big way. Take a few steps back & think over who's writing the rules you believe in.

Now that I have said that, one of my best friends was adopted. The one thing he said to me that really stuck was "how many of our geniuses have been killed by abortion?". Think about it, some amazing people like Einstein only come along once in a hundred years. Yep, one of them who may have changed the world (maybe in a good way, maybe in a bad way) have been eliminated by abortion.

That being said, I still support it. It's the mothers right to do what she wishes.
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Old 02-27-2005, 10:50 PM   #28 (permalink)
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i support the right to choose. That said, I don't know any women who've had an abortion that aren't a total mess emotionally.

Women are built to have children and most of them have instincts that make them feel very strongly about children. Hurting a child or doing anything other than caring for it are not things many women can do w/o massive psych repercussions.

There are women who do not have these instincts, and for that reason, I think they should be allowed to do whatever they want with their bodies, as long as they pay for it and not burden the fed or state government.

Out of 4 or 5 I've known, I don't know any women who've had an abortion that aren't a total mess emotionally afterward for a long time.
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Old 02-28-2005, 04:22 AM   #29 (permalink)
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Woman's body, her choice. Not the government's. That being said, there should be limitations as to under what circumstances it is allowed. You don't want women using it as birth control!

I think adoption is all very well...but the world is already over populated. You have no guarantee your baby is going to a good home and that he/she will live a happy, healthy life. And you have no control over what is done after you sign them over.

As for the church...hypocrisy on many levels rings a bell. No comment.
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Old 02-28-2005, 04:24 PM   #30 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by c172g
First off, put the Catholic view of abortion away. I was raised Catholic, and the crap that church dishes out makes me want to puke when I hear about the molestation that they continaully knew about & covered up. That organization is crooked in a big way. Take a few steps back & think over who's writing the rules you believe in.
So we should hold a whole religion responsible for a minority? Why don't we just ban Islam while we're at it, because, you know, they support blowing people up? Or maybe we should throw out Judaism, since they treat they're women like shit, or maybe write off Buddhism, because they set themselves on fire, so they must be nuts? Just because a group within a religion is bad, we cannot demonize the whole religion.

I'm nominally Catholic, and I'm against abortion in most cases. It has nothing to do with what the Church says, and everything to do with what is right. A life that has the potential to suck is infinitely better than none at all. It isn't black and white, I can see some cases, I could see a reason for it, but things like poverty or overpopulation do not work in my opinion.

The earth is not overpopulated. India, and China are overpopulated, but America has so much land either unused or used innefficiently, that it's rediculous to use such an argument. Our government pays farmers not to use there lands every year so that the price of food stays high, and yet people starve. The US government buys up excess milk and stores it in a cavern in Kansas, and we still believe that America is overpopulated. We've got plenty of land, and a lot of water, and the potential for more food, how then are we overpopulated?
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Old 02-28-2005, 05:23 PM   #31 (permalink)
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I'm a pro-lifer and I believe that very, very few women who decide to have an abortion make that decision lightly. People who think that they haven't thought through all the angles and options do not have a true grasp on the psyche of a woman's mind.
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Old 02-28-2005, 06:48 PM   #32 (permalink)
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Out of 4 or 5 I've known, I don't know any women who've had an abortion that aren't a total mess emotionally afterward for a long time.
One of the reasons some women (not even a majority) feel such emotional trauma after an abortion is that they are not supported objectively and compassionately post-decision.

I have not had one single regret, nor have I had any emotional fallout since my abortion. I'm not saying it was an easy decision... far from it, it was one of the most difficult I've ever made. And I don't know any woman who can say that it was easy. I've worked for nearly 15 years with women pre- and post- abortion and know far more women who are emotionally sound after their decision than I do women who are not. All women (and men, too, for that matter) are vulnerable after making a potentially life-impacting decision, in the face of moral beliefs, public opinion and the pressures of friends and family. And I've seen what exposure to the propaganda of the pro-life camp can do to a woman vulnerable after a difficult and life-changing decision.

Its a shame that moral decisions cannot be left to the individual without interference from outside sources. Even Jesus said that a person's moral decisions cannot be forced, nor can a person be compelled to believe.
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Old 02-28-2005, 07:10 PM   #33 (permalink)
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Just wanted to chime in and say that I am adopted, and am grateful every day that my 16 year old mother deciding to go through with the pregnancy and give me up for adoption and give me a chance to live. I would like to think she would be proud of her decision today.

She knew she was in no position to raise me, but was responsible for my existence and made the best decision of my life by giving that life to me to live.

And for that I thank her.
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Old 03-05-2005, 08:33 AM   #34 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lurkette
Oy. Another abortion thread. Can we just cut to the chase and agree that the jury's out on the whole "when life begins" question, and agree to disagree civilly? I appreciate your plea for consideration of adoption, and I think saying that ANY solution to an unwanted pregnancy - whether it's adoption or abortion - is "the best way to go" is overly simplistic. Every woman's situation is different, and every woman has a right to make that decision for herself and live with whatever consequences that decision brings. Hopefully a woman who finds herself faced with an unwanted pregnancy has good friends and a support system to help her come to the decision that's right for her.
I think you took the words right out of my mouth.

Also, men's preferences should have no bearing on the issue of women's bodies.
Do women want to force circumcisions upon all men?
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Old 03-05-2005, 04:08 PM   #35 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by little_tippler
Woman's body, her choice. Not the government's. That being said, there should be limitations as to under what circumstances it is allowed. You don't want women using it as birth control!
I used to be "Pro-choice" and used this as my reasoning but should it honestly be the womands choice?

I think we are ruining our women and in turn ruining our society by allowing abortions. Its somehting like 40% of all women carry a baby to term within one year of having an abortion, how do you think that effects them? How do you think it affects the way they treat thier new kid?

We dont allow heroin use because we know that is bad for you, why should abortion be any different? Why do we have to infuse religion in the whole thing?

Who cares when life starts when we are effectivly allowing the womans life to stop.
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Old 03-05-2005, 04:16 PM   #36 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 89transam
I used to be "Pro-choice" and used this as my reasoning but should it honestly be the womands choice?

I think we are ruining our women and in turn ruining our society by allowing abortions. Its somehting like 40% of all women carry a baby to term within one year of having an abortion, how do you think that effects them? How do you think it affects the way they treat thier new kid?

We dont allow heroin use because we know that is bad for you, why should abortion be any different? Why do we have to infuse religion in the whole thing?

Who cares when life starts when we are effectivly allowing the womans life to stop.
very good and valid points.
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Hesitate. Pull me in.
Breath on breath. Skin on skin.
Loving deep. Falling fast.
All right here. Let this last.
Here with our lips locked tight.
Baby the time is right for us...
to forget about us.
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Old 03-05-2005, 04:36 PM   #37 (permalink)
Psycho
 
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A woman chooses her route of delivery. All those who are con-abortion are welcome to provide a life for the child. Takers?
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Old 03-05-2005, 04:42 PM   #38 (permalink)
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Life is as it is. The opening was there, and you (the almighty ones) refused it. Many are left as orphans, and you kicked them to the curb. It's easy to spesk of them, but when the time comes, you leave them on the curb.
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Old 03-05-2005, 06:06 PM   #39 (permalink)
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Location: nOvA
Quote:
Originally Posted by william
Life is as it is. The opening was there, and you (the almighty ones) refused it. Many are left as orphans, and you kicked them to the curb. It's easy to spesk of them, but when the time comes, you leave them on the curb.
Smells like a troll.
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Old 03-05-2005, 06:14 PM   #40 (permalink)
"Without the fuzz"
 
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Location: ..too close for comfort..
i'm adopted ..i'm glad my 18 year old birth mother made that choice because thats why i'm here today..however..personally i'm not ready to be pregnant never mind having kids..i f i were to get pregnant.... well the clinic is on my speed dial

womens bodies. womens choice.
(however maybe the daddy shoudl have a little tiny say..like 2%)
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Play with each other. Play with yourselves. Just don't play with the squirrels, they bite.
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