Masturbation not against the Bible - Page 2 - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

WillyPete · 11-12-2004, 01:49 PM

Do you ever hear an echo when you're having sex?

SecretMethod70 · 11-12-2004, 02:30 PM

I think this site gave an excellent overview of the argument for masturbation from a Christian perspective:
http://www.jesusjournal.com/articles...article_9.html

Quote:

What does the Bible teach about masturbation?

A recently divorced 42 year-old woman asks if it is a sin. It's a question that is usually asked by adolescent boys, but it is becoming an important question among older divorced and widowed people.

OUR INSIGHT

What does the Bible say about masturbation? Nothing. It is absolutely silent on the matter, yet the question about whether it is right or wrong still concerns many Christians.

The Sin Of Onan

Many suggest the "sin of Onan" (Genesis 38) refers to masturbation, but that's not the case. What Onan did is what we call "coitus interruptus," which is having intercourse, but withdrawing before ejaculation. Many Christians practice this method of "birth control," and it could be considered the real sin of Onan. However, we must stop and ask ourselves if God is really in the business of killing people, as he did Onan, just because they don't ejaculate inside a vagina. This is an absurd thought, of course.

That brings us to the real sin of Onan, and that is, God wanted a child of that union and Onan was willfully disobedient. At the heart of the matter was greed. If Onan had children with Tamar it would have meant that the prosperity of the land would have to be shared with these children as well as his own. Onan didn't want that, so he defied God. It is important to remember that God still judges willful disobedience today. The sin of Onan was not the means of his disobedience (spilling his semen on the ground), but the fact of it.

Lustful Thoughts

If masturbation is not mentioned in the Bible, and if it is no sin for a man to ejaculate outside his wife's body, then what is the problem?

To some it is the idea of having a fantasy about a lover as part of the masturbation process. They say it goes against Matthew 5:28. But I would suggest that there's a huge difference between "looking at a woman lustfully" with an intent to commit adultery and fantasizing about some imaginary lover. If this distinction was not an honest one, then certainly the Song of Solomon should be removed from the Bible. The whole theme of the book is about looking on a woman lustfully, even though many have tried to mask this reality by drawing a comparison between the lovers and Christ and his Bride, the Church.

Is it possible to be aroused without lusting after a real person, or relying on pornographic images? It is these things that are not good for Christians. But is masturbation a mark of "lasciviousness," "impurity," and "uncleanness?" The Bible itself does not say masurbation is these things, but some interpreters do. Followers of Jesus must make a decision whether they intend to be guided by the teaching of the Bible or the various views of those who have differing opinions. This applies to all concerns in this life.

Differing Views

Most of what we have come to believe about masturbation comes from the teaching of the Catholic Church in bygone centuries. These Catholics believed and taught that a man only had so much semen in his life and that it should not be used up gratuitously, but conserved for procreation. As late as 1975 the Pope said, "masturbation constitutes a grave moral disorder," but this is a Catholic teaching, not a biblical one.

Up until about 1940 some people in the medical world thought that masturbation led to insanity. There was never any truth to this, and this conclusion was arrived at by faulty observation. Sane people know enough to masturbate in private, but insane people, without inhibitions, did it publicly. Somewhere along the line people thought there was a connection between insanity and masturbation, but there is no medical evidence this is true.

Men and women masturbate. In 1966 research by Masters & Johnson revealed the practice to be virtually universal in North America, cutting across all boundaries of religion, sex, age, race, and social class. People always have masturbated (if paintings on cave walls are any evidence) and always will, and it is morally neutral. Our bodies and minds require sexual release, and this has been the way it is from Creation. God "hard-wired" us this way. For young men and women, and those not married, masturbation is a perfectly normal way of dealing with the situation. There should be no guilt associated with it. To try to stop people from masturbating for religious reasons is like trying to outlaw sneezing as some unholy event.

The Problems Associated The Practice

So, should masturbation be encouraged in all circumstances? No. The yearnings are there for a reason, and it's important that people examine those reasons. For example, if a person is masturbating often, then it may be that they have some unresolved emotional issue that needs to be discussed. Masturbation should never become an addiction.

How often is too often? Adolescents are prone to doing it daily sometimes, but as people get older the desire normally fades. Others may do it weekly or less frequently. Surging hormones play a big role. Sometimes married people also masturbate occasionally, and this should not be a problem unless one spouse makes it into one. In that case, a thorough discussion by the couple is necessary.

What about the more mature single person? The desire may be God's way of suggesting it is time to find a husband or wife. In 1 Corinthians 7 Paul said it was better to marry than to burn with passion.

Sexuality is a God-given gift that is connected with relationship. Masturbation can be a problem if people are continually using it as a substitute for relationship. People may engage in solo sex for release, but there should be some concern if it is continually done because of loneliness, boredom, depression or other such emotional reasons.

A Conclusion

If you have guilt about masturbation it does not come from something the Bible teaches. It is there because of social conditioning. Solo sex is not the ideal, but it is a natural human expression. It is not inherently evil, but like so many things, it can be used wrongly.

Whether a person masturbates or not should not be based on their place in the theological spectrum. It is not a matter of liberals doing it and conservatives not doing it. Masturbation could have been condemned by name in the Bible had the Holy Spirit so inspired the writers. But since this is not the case, Christians need to take it for what it is, a temporary release from sexual tension.

But, you say, don't Catholics and many other denominations of Christianity still condemn masturbation? Yes, they do. However, let's consider this from a rational standpoint. As recently as 1940, as this exerpt mentions, there were those even in the medical community who, misguided as they may have been, thought masturbation may have been a deviant practice. Religious institutions are not going to be quick to change their beliefs based on the whims of social trends. However, most reasonable religious institutions are also willing to re-examine their beliefs when new understandings contrast with them. This is part of the reason the Catholic Church has, for over 50 years, recognized the scientific validity of evolution. I have little doubt that as we come to understand masturbation from a better standpoint, and understand that it is not the act of masturbation itself that is problematic but, as with anything, the lack of moderation that is, most reasonable religions will shift towards holding this view as well.

adam · 11-12-2004, 03:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carn

MASTURBATION IN ITSELF IS NOT A SIN. You don't have to repent for it. However, if you think about a man/woman (who is not your husband/wife, even if you aren't married yet) while you wank, THAT is a sin. Lusting is a sin, and coveting another person's spouse is a sin, but the Bible says NOTHING about masturbation being a sin.

Just out of curiousity (I'm not a Christian), is lusting after imagined people who don't exist a sin?

Coppertop · 11-12-2004, 03:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by adam

Just out of curiousity (I'm not a Christian), is lusting after imagined people who don't exist a sin?

That's what we call puberty.

adam · 11-12-2004, 07:16 PM

Gee, I would have called it imagination.

Kalnaur · 11-12-2004, 09:58 PM

Hell, let the fundie loons think what they want. I'm more than happy to deprive people of things if they blindly follow religions.

Sorry. I'll be good now.

gaiden · 11-13-2004, 01:42 AM

Yeah, the Onan spilling his seed doesn't relate to masturbation (he was told to impregnate the woman, and pulled out instead) but I do recall someone, somewhere telling me, yes, that Onan's story doesn't forbid masturbation, but rather something along the lines of Peter saying that all thoughts and actions should be kept pure, and masturbation not necessarily falling under "pure"

Psycho Dad · 11-13-2004, 03:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carn

Lusting is a sin, and coveting another person's spouse is a sin

I'm going to hell.

Drider_it · 11-13-2004, 05:16 AM

but you all must understand one aspect above all others in christianity... we are human and flawed.. we cant be perfect.. we sin all the time.. dont try to be perfect live the best you can. thats all you have to do. if you spank the monkey.. fine just dont make it every aspect of your life and your ok..

yet another way to look at it.. your better off spanking it then forcing sex on a woman.

DJLaurieB · 11-13-2004, 06:51 AM

Ok, I can't quote scripture here, but I remember not too long ago being given a pamphlet in church (Catholic) about what the "mortal sins are" and the 4 that were on there were:
* Murder
* Abortion
* Sex outside of marriage
* Masturbation

So my 1st question is - how do you equate rubbing one out to abortion, in terms of severity of the offense? 2nd question would be - why did they distinguish between murder and abortion, but that's a WHOOOOOOOOOOOOOOLE nother can of worms.

I had it explained to me once that the reason masturbation is a sin is because our bodies are supposed to be "images of God" or "God's temples" or something like that. So when we treat our bodies in this way, it's disrespectful to God.

That's the short answer anyway

Brooke · 11-13-2004, 12:06 PM

Quote:

I had it explained to me once that the reason masturbation is a sin is because our bodies are supposed to be "images of God" or "God's temples" or something like that. So when we treat our bodies in this way, it's disrespectful to God.

That's the short answer anyway

OKAY! I am just a bit disturbed at the thought of masturbating us = masturbating God.

Then - if that is the case - wouldnt God be cheering for us then.
God: "Oh go you! you found the spot. That is my created child, Man! I am sooo freakin proud!!"

The you could also take it this way
Masturbating in respect to the image of God....for God....=living you life for God.

See how full of holes that pamphlet is? I am not even gonna touch the Abortion/murder discrepency

SecretMethod70 · 11-13-2004, 12:58 PM

Regarding Catholicism, what the catechism says regarding masturbation:

Quote:

By masturbation is to be understood the deliberate stimulation of the genital organs in order to derive sexual pleasure. "Both the Magisterium of the Church, in the course of a constant tradition, and the moral sense of the faithful have been in no doubt and have firmly maintained that masturbation is an intrinsically and gravely disordered action."138 "The deliberate use of the sexual faculty, for whatever reason, outside of marriage is essentially contrary to its purpose." For here sexual pleasure is sought outside of "the sexual relationship which is demanded by the moral order and in which the total meaning of mutual self-giving and human procreation in the context of true love is achieved."139

To form an equitable judgment about the subjects' moral responsibility and to guide pastoral action, one must take into account the affective immaturity, force of acquired habit, conditions of anxiety or other psychological or social factors that lessen, if not even reduce to a minimum, moral culpability.

Now, first of all, if one were to say this is totally correct, I think it's fair to say that MOST people acquired a habit of masturbation when they were young and not fully mature. Thus, most people, IMO, would fall under the affective immaturity and force of acquired habit umbrella.

Aside for that, like I said, I don't think this is generally the right way to look at masturbation. Catholicism is a particularly interesting religion I think because you can talk to two priests and get entirely opposite answers regarding the faith. While some may think that shows a lack of decisiveness, I think that the freedom to which theological issues can be considered, with respect for the primacy of conscience, allows for the Catholic Church to be quite malleable when it comes to rethinking various outlooks. For example: where I went to church as a kid, one of the priests freely expressed his belief that there is no such thing as a requirement to not eat meat on Fridays during Lent. It's a nice symbolic thing to do, but basically he asserted that it doesn't matter one bit if you do it or not in the grand scheme of things. There are other priests one could speak to who would say such an opinion is terrible and completely contrary to the church's teaching. Likewise, there are many priests today who are still opposed to the reforms of Vatican II which, once fully accepted, I think pave way to LOTS of theological conclusions that are different from the "official" stance of the Church now.

Point being, there are quite conservative Catholics and quite liberal Catholics. Most of the more liberal Catholics that I've had the pleasure of experiencing make little differentiation between "mortal" and "venial" sins. Indeed, I've gone to Catholic schools for 13 years and went through Catholic confirmation classes through my church for 2 of the 4 years I was attending a public high school, and I have never once been taught the difference between a mortal or venial sin. Yet, on the other hand, there are still some Catholics who will not participate in the handshake of peace during mass because they object to it and other various parts of Vatican II which make the Catholic faith much more open and liberal.

Point being, change in the Catholic Church does not happen from the top down; it happens from the bottom up. I truly believe that women will become priests in the next 100 years at most within the Catholic Church, because the forces are in place and the sentiment is moving up the chain. Likewise, I think the contemporary Catholic theological movement is progressing a new unerstanding of sexuality and its place in our lives. The change, however, is happening from the bottom up, so it's not going to be seen in any "official" documents. The last time the church REALLY talked about masturbation was 1975 (that is what the section in the catechism is based on), and even in just the past 30 years we have come extremely far in getting a better understanding of ourselves. Take that into account as well as the fact the current pope is considered to be a "conservative" Catholic (something which many of the cardinals in the church do not like, because he does not tend to support the collegiality that was proposed in Vatican II), and I think that the church is ripe for drastic changes in theological thinking in the next 100 years and even just in the next papacy.

As a side note, one can already see this beginning in a new sex guide that has been sanctioned by the Vatican which supports post-coital masturbation for people who have failed to get off

Livia Regina · 11-13-2004, 02:11 PM

Are there any religions other than Christianity (and I assume Judaism and Islam) that keep such a tight reign on sexuality? Do the Eastern religions try to regulate it?

SecretMethod70 · 11-13-2004, 02:29 PM

More liberal views in Christianity do not have a negative view of the act of masturbation in and of itself, as far as I know, only orthodox Judaism is against masturbation, and Buddhism is against masturbation for monks and nuns. As far as ordinary people, Buddhism is not against masturbation for them, but one can see how a Buddhist might argue that masturbation can lead to an unhealthy attachment to the corporeal world when done in excess. This, I believe, is the true argument against masturbation if there is one.

Gamer90 · 11-13-2004, 09:15 PM

"You have heard that it was said, 'Do not commit adultery.' But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart.

So masturbating to the thought of my wife is a sin? Now I've heard everything!

Catholicism is a particularly interesting religion I think because you can talk to two priests and get entirely opposite answers regarding the faith.

You are absolutely right, I asked a priest about cursing and if its against god, one said yeah another said no because people get that from when someone in the Bible I forget who said "Life and death is in the power of the tongue" which has nothing to do with cursing, he then said how are you hurting anything if you said "Damn that was a nice shot!".

DJLaurieB · 11-14-2004, 06:33 AM

Ok here's a BETTER question if you want to bring God into it:

If God didn't want us to have sex for pleasure, why did He/She create the orgasm? huh? tell me THAT. Seems to me it would be disrespectful to NOT take advantage of this wonderful gift.........

ShaniFaye · 11-14-2004, 06:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gamer90

"You have heard that it was said, 'Do not commit adultery.' But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart.

So masturbating to the thought of my wife is a sin? Now I've heard everything!

ummm no masterbating to the thought of someone OTHER than your wife would be the sin

manchicken · 11-16-2004, 02:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brooke

Quote from : http://www127.pair.com/critical/food-03.htm

I looked up the verse in question. Onan was guilty of the sin of refusing Gods direct order to consumate with his brothers wife. The Jewish tradition is called "levirate marriage" - The issue with wasted sperm is primarily a church tradition - and especially the Catholic Churches fixation on sperm has been noted (Monty Python "Every Sperm is Sacred")

Are there any other verses? Can someone - using scripture - argue to me that there is a biblical basis for this? What do modern day spiritual leaders say about this? Is there adminition against these pratices in other holy works for other religions?

I hope also that I got the right forum - this can be mostly reviewed as a religious discussion.

I must say that I've never heard anybody substantiate that claim. As a minister, I would never consider masturbation a sin, nor would I tell anybody else so. Remember that A) Monty Python was a comedy group, and their songs are only for entertainment purposes B) many of these nonsensical rules--i.e. missionary position, no masturbation, don't spill semen--are carried over from when people thought sexual control was the key to solving the world's problems. Then they thought that semen was a necessary fluid for a man. Let's not revert back to that thinking please. We're smarter than that.

11-12-2004, 09:58 PM	#46 (permalink)
Kalnaur Psycho Location: Portland, Oregon	Hell, let the fundie loons think what they want. I'm more than happy to deprive people of things if they blindly follow religions. Sorry. I'll be good now. __________________ PC: Can you help me out here HK? HK-47: I'm 98% percent sure this miniature organic meatbag wants you to help find his fellow miniature organic meatbags. PC: And the other 2 percent? HK-47: The other 2 percent is that he is just looking for trouble and needs to be blasted, but that might be wishful thinking on my part.

11-13-2004, 05:16 AM	#49 (permalink)
Drider_it Junkie Location: Louisiana	but you all must understand one aspect above all others in christianity... we are human and flawed.. we cant be perfect.. we sin all the time.. dont try to be perfect live the best you can. thats all you have to do. if you spank the monkey.. fine just dont make it every aspect of your life and your ok.. yet another way to look at it.. your better off spanking it then forcing sex on a woman. __________________ It means only one thing, and everything: Cut. Once committed to fight, Cut. Everything else is secondary. Cut. That is your duty, your purpose, your hunger. There is no rule more important, no commitment that overrides that one. Cut. The lines are a portrayal of the dance. Cut from the void, not from bewilderment. Cut the enemy as quickly and directly as possible. Cut with certainty. Cut decisively, resoultely. Cut into his strength. Flow through the gaps in his guard. Cut him. Cut him down utterly. Don't allow him a breath. Crush him. Cut him without mercy to the depth of his spirit. It is the balance to life: death. It is the dance with death. It is the law a war wizard lives by, or he dies.

11-13-2004, 02:29 PM	#54 (permalink)
SecretMethod70 Human Administrator Location: Chicago	More liberal views in Christianity do not have a negative view of the act of masturbation in and of itself, as far as I know, only orthodox Judaism is against masturbation, and Buddhism is against masturbation for monks and nuns. As far as ordinary people, Buddhism is not against masturbation for them, but one can see how a Buddhist might argue that masturbation can lead to an unhealthy attachment to the corporeal world when done in excess. This, I believe, is the true argument against masturbation if there is one. __________________ Le temps détruit tout "Musicians are the carriers and communicators of spirit in the most immediate sense." - Kurt Elling

11-12-2004, 01:49 PM	#41 (permalink)
WillyPete Addict	Do you ever hear an echo when you're having sex?

11-12-2004, 07:16 PM	#45 (permalink)
adam Insane	Gee, I would have called it imagination.

11-13-2004, 01:42 AM	#47 (permalink)
gaiden Tilted	Yeah, the Onan spilling his seed doesn't relate to masturbation (he was told to impregnate the woman, and pulled out instead) but I do recall someone, somewhere telling me, yes, that Onan's story doesn't forbid masturbation, but rather something along the lines of Peter saying that all thoughts and actions should be kept pure, and masturbation not necessarily falling under "pure"

11-13-2004, 06:51 AM	#50 (permalink)
DJLaurieB Upright	Ok, I can't quote scripture here, but I remember not too long ago being given a pamphlet in church (Catholic) about what the "mortal sins are" and the 4 that were on there were: * Murder * Abortion * Sex outside of marriage * Masturbation So my 1st question is - how do you equate rubbing one out to abortion, in terms of severity of the offense? 2nd question would be - why did they distinguish between murder and abortion, but that's a WHOOOOOOOOOOOOOOLE nother can of worms. I had it explained to me once that the reason masturbation is a sin is because our bodies are supposed to be "images of God" or "God's temples" or something like that. So when we treat our bodies in this way, it's disrespectful to God. That's the short answer anyway

11-13-2004, 02:11 PM	#53 (permalink)
Livia Regina Crazy	Are there any religions other than Christianity (and I assume Judaism and Islam) that keep such a tight reign on sexuality? Do the Eastern religions try to regulate it?

11-13-2004, 09:15 PM	#55 (permalink)
Gamer90 Tilted	"You have heard that it was said, 'Do not commit adultery.' But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart. So masturbating to the thought of my wife is a sin? Now I've heard everything! Catholicism is a particularly interesting religion I think because you can talk to two priests and get entirely opposite answers regarding the faith. You are absolutely right, I asked a priest about cursing and if its against god, one said yeah another said no because people get that from when someone in the Bible I forget who said "Life and death is in the power of the tongue" which has nothing to do with cursing, he then said how are you hurting anything if you said "Damn that was a nice shot!".

11-14-2004, 06:33 AM	#56 (permalink)
DJLaurieB Upright	Ok here's a BETTER question if you want to bring God into it: If God didn't want us to have sex for pleasure, why did He/She create the orgasm? huh? tell me THAT. Seems to me it would be disrespectful to NOT take advantage of this wonderful gift.........