sapiens

If you have any empirical evidence, I'd love to hear about it. I don't put much stock in the opinion of an unnamed criminologist.

That said, I'll have to look up the refs for my last post on this thread and post them. (I'm guilty of posting evidence from unnamed sources as well). I believe that The Natural History of Rape by Thornhill and Palmer and the most recent edition of The Evolution of Desire by David Buss both contain the sources I reference above, but I will find the primary sources and post them.

EDIT: I'm not going to post 'em, but if you want 'em, PM me. The rape: sex versus power discussion that I have been participating in is probably a threadjack.

Vaultboy

America is a really messed-up society. In a country producing more than 11 000 porn movies PER YEAR , Nudity is still such a big issue. Its okay for 13 year-olds to watch Violent movies with loads of gore, but whip out a tit at the superbowl and the country comes to a standstill. Sheesh. Yet American women have one of the highest breast-implant ratios in the world. In a society that self-concious about physical appearance, few women would go topless in public anyway, so this whole issue is a non-issue flouted by feminists who need to justify spending their NGO grants. This issue is almost the same as women who label themselves "bi-curios" but would pass if the opportunity ever really came up.

Granted, there is very tiny minority of women who would use these rights, but my guess is that they'd do it with legislation or without.

__________________
"Failing tastes of bile and dog vomit. Pity any man that gets used to that taste."

mastermac2000

most of this is mute point as the right wing wouldnt allow it nationally it might happen in the us in local areas but i agree with most of the posts on here so far i am all for it clothing in general should be an option period for everyone

__________________
If you can read this thank a teacher

If you can read this in English thank a soldier

Kalnaur

Let them be topless, I say. I really could care less if women were able to. It might even be benificial to the society.

__________________
PC: Can you help me out here HK?
HK-47: I'm 98% percent sure this miniature organic meatbag wants you to help find his fellow miniature organic meatbags.
PC: And the other 2 percent?
HK-47: The other 2 percent is that he is just looking for trouble and needs to be blasted, but that might be wishful thinking on my part.

Subliminal mind

Why aren't women allowed to go topless. If a man takes off his shirt its because he's hot (overly warm). It is not construed as a sexual practice. Why? because it has become a cultural norm. If women took of their tops whenever they pleased it would become less of a sexual thing and would become more accepted.

If clothes did not exist, no one would feel shame or guilt about being naked. It's only our scociety that teaches us that breasts are for sexual reasons only. So feel no shame, and set them free.

he_haha

If they go topless I won't tell a soul

bad jane

i wouldn't mind going topless. it wouldn't be all the time, just as men don't go around without shirts all the time. but topless at the pool? hell yeah. while working out in the yard? count me in!

bras are not comfy--even when they are the right size. i go without one as often as possible. sure they lift the girls up and make them look pretty, but i care more for comfort than appearance.

drakers

I don't think there is any big deal in it, like a lot of women would just go bare because the law said they could. If it was a big deal they would already be going bare to help change the law.

Blaspheme

In Ashland, Oregon (a town about 16 miles south of me) it's perfectly legal for women to go topless. Unsurprisingly, Ashland is a college town (Southern Oregon University), and is incredibly liberal even by the standards of other college towns.

Despite the legality of them doing so, I've never yet seen a topless woman there. I've heard reports that there are a few "regulars" who like to walk around the parks etc "attuning to nature", and the police have been known to gently try to encourage them to cover up. From all reports, it's a fultile gesture on behalf of the police force as the women in question enjoy the full protection of the law and generally tell the police to go screw themselves.

__________________
Faith: not wanting to know what is true.
~Friedrich Nietzsche

raveneye

Well as long as we're all in favor equality, how about this.

It's not considered sexual assault to fondle a man's breast.

How about it, do we want to eliminate that form of assault against women as well?

How many of you in favor of equality going topless are also in favor of equality in sexual content of body parts? If going topless is no big deal because it's not a "sexual thing" then doesn't that commit you to the position that fondling is no longer sexual assault?

hannukah harry

there's a big difference between a breast being visual and fondling a breast. being topless isn't about sexuality. a woman baring her breasts isn't doing it to be sexual, just like a guy being topless isn't doing it to be sexual. but fondling a breast is always a sexual action. and if it is unwelcome, then it is sexual assault. (and by the way, if you fondle a mans chest/breast, that could very likely be construed as sexual assault if it is unwelcome, it all depends on how the law was written).

__________________
shabbat shalom, mother fucker! - the hebrew hammer

raveneye

Well the question is: should topless be legal or not? Some places make it illegal for women because women's breasts have a sexual content that men's breasts don't have. They say that's not discrimination, that's just recognizing a social norm that situates the sexes differently.

So you could frame it like this: are women's breasts more analogous to men's genitals because they have similar sexual content and therefore should be subject to the same exposure laws? Or are women's breasts more analogous to men's breasts because they don't have any sexual content and therefore should be subject to the same exposure/assault laws?

settie

Really? I heard about the topless incident, but never knew that it was now legal to go topless in Ontario!
And you're right, it's been pretty much a non-issue since. I have never seen a fellow female topless in the summer here. *shrugs* Guess its not a big issue like some people think.
I don't know if I would go topless, probably not, but it wouldn't bother me if others did. Its no big deal.

Demeter

Yeah, like all the women on nude beaches are getting raped? Bah!
The only time a guy tried to attack me I was wearing a huge parka, sweats, knee high winter boots (no, not heels) and had a backpack on my back. The hood was pulled up. He wouldn't even have known for sure I was a woman. I was walking to work. Lucky for me someone I knew drove by & picked me up. I really don't think this guy had been turned on by my breasts.
As for the other angle of this story, there are topless men out there with bigger boobs than mine (should I rape him?) why can't I walk around as nature intended?

raveneye

I think you misunderstood me, if indeed I'm the person you're responding to. I'm just asking people what they mean by "equality". Are we saying that the law should treat men and women's bodies absolutely equally?

I would tend to say yes. However, I suspect that most of the people who think they want equality would probably end up disagreeing with be, because the increased freedom is balanced by reductions in legal protections. And for many people the reduced legal protections would outweigh the increased freedom.

CYMK

AMEN.

I just don't buy that weak ass excuse of "She seduced me". I'm sorry but I personally am able to contain my desire and i'm willing to bet that the vast majority of men are too. A friend of mine was raped and it completely destroyed her self confidence. She's attractive but she dresses fairly conservatively and is reserved towards men. Her life has been limitied by the fact that her rapist is a fairly active community member and his presence makes her very uncomfortable. I apologise if that was a bit incoherent. Oh, and sorry for the threadjack.

Demeter

Raveneye, it wasn't you I was refering to, but this wonderfully educational remark.

raveneye

OK, thanks . . .

I've spent a lot of time in countries with less sexual hangups than the U.S. where full nudity on beaches by both sexes is normal, for example the Baltic Coast of Germany.

In these places rape is less common if anything. In fact along the seacoast I'm personally familiar with rape is practically unheard of.

And I'll also say that the social atmosphere is very refreshing in these places.

It's really hard for most Americans to understand that female breasts in MOST of the world have virtually no sexual content. Even in some places in many western countries.

Last summer I was watching a news program in northern Germany, and the cameraman walked out on some beach and interviewed random people about some political question. About half the women they interviewed were topless, of various ages maybe 20 to 60. None of them had any problem talking to the camera, no more than any of the topless men did.

And in a beach volleyball tournament the next day, most of the players were changing their suits right on the beach, in front of the crowd and TV cameras. Nobody thought anything about it.

I as an American of course noticed it, and thought, what the hell is wrong with my country ? ? ? ?

Carno

Wow, I can't believe I missed this.. I live in Brevard county

hokiesandwich

I don't think this has anything to do with rape...but who knows.

Has anyone read Michel Foucault's The History of Sexuality? It's an interesting look at sexuality and law, but it is a bit frustrating to read. I think it's because of the unorthodox view of world power and sexuality...it's still got some very interesting points, and is from a perspective many of us may not have examined, yet.

I'm talking out my butt...

drewpy

well - here's my two cents ... the original topic should it be legal. for me sure - but the reality is that it ends up meaning it ok in a logical setting, beach, poolside etc.

I also wanted to comment on responses by the folks that seem to believe the whole western europe doesn't view the female breast as interesting or sexual - in other words that everyone thinks they're commonplace and for breast feeding. To this I respectfully say Bullshit. I lived in Europe for two-years, and continue travel there frequently for business - every heterosexual male I have ever met in europe has always fully appreciated female breasts as much as american men. They are just cool about it cause they don't want to ruin a good thing.

Finally, for those who have made widespread sweeping comments implying that the US is the ONLY place with such hangups - I again say Bullshit. Let's try to be more realistic and consider other cultures - in the Arab or Islamic cultures, puhlease, in Asia proper - India, Japan and China your gonna see breast - gimme a break, the list goes on.

Let's stop bashing our culture - America is a great country, with great breasts - we all lighten a bit and everything will work itself out ...

__________________
"Once made equal to a man, woman becomes his superior." Socrates