ShaniFaye

Well hopefully she was spending a lot of time with the guy before she married him. I've never said that the girl shouldnt have her husband/boyfriend as a priority, all I've said is that its possible for a girl that is in a commited relationship to have friends that are guys and that doing dinner and movies doesnt necessarily make it a DATE...and that it shouldnt matter what time of day the event takes place.

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I want the diabetic plan that comes with rollover carbs. I dont like the unused one expiring at midnite!!

ManWithAPlan

shani, i asked this before and i'll ask again. again, i'm not trying to be patronizing. what in your opinion constitutes a date if it's not the manner of activity or time of day?

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In the end we are but wisps

ShaniFaye

ok I must have missed where you asked me that

The feelings or potentential of future feelings is what constitutes it a date, IMO. If I am in a committed relationship and I go out to dinner and movies with a male friend that I have been hanging out with for 18 years and there is NO, for lack of a better word at the moment...romantic involvement/intentions, it is friends hanging out...its not a date...it doesnt matter if I meet him for breakfast at IHOP at 9 am or at waffle house at 11 pm

Friendly, unromantic events aren't "dates" just because a man and a woman attend them together

Also....a lot of times, I know its not ALWAYS the case...but a DATE usually implies ONE person paying for both people

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I want the diabetic plan that comes with rollover carbs. I dont like the unused one expiring at midnite!!

ManWithAPlan

i had a girlfriend who would refuse to let me pay for her.

and so you're saying that there need to be feelings of romance for it to be a date? do you see how that can become a bit 'iffy' or sketchy?

well,
1. what if ONE person has feelings of romance
2. to a third party it can still be unclear and uncomfortable because you can never really truly know what your significant other is feeling or thinking.

__________________
In the end we are but wisps

ShaniFaye

No I said feelings OR potential of feelings

I guess basically what Im saying is...I have several male friends that I have had for years....just because we go out and do something with or without my fiancee shouldnt matter. Its not a date if my fiancee is present.....why would it be a date if I go out with the very same friend and do the very same thing without him present?

and yes I do know what my SO is thinking...especially on this subject as we are of the same mind....that we think its insane for someone to say that a female and a male having dinner is a date just because its a man and a woman and that its taking place at nite.

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I want the diabetic plan that comes with rollover carbs. I dont like the unused one expiring at midnite!!

wilbjammin

Due to the fact that dates typically involve two people interacting together, what a date involves can be totally defined by these two people.

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Innominate.

ShaniFaye

I guess I need to just stay out of this thread because its obvious that some of you men (and I say men because if you read the thread I started in the ladies forum, most of us girls think the same way) are going to consider a m/f going out a date no matter what.

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I want the diabetic plan that comes with rollover carbs. I dont like the unused one expiring at midnite!!

ManWithAPlan

i didn't mean to strike you the wrong way, i was just trying to explore this deeper.

i do appreciate your opinion, and like i said, i'm not trying to be patronizing... i'm just probing...

by "know what your SO is thinking" i meant exactly, specifically at any given instance...

I suppose it's kind of hard for you to see what i'm saying from your particular position, but if you try to think outside of yourself... in a general sense... not everyone has such a secure relationship as you (by the way, i'm very happy for you and i wish you joy, happiness and health with all my other best wishes).

but just because a relationship is not secure doesn't mean it should be abandoned, which in turn means that it should be salvaged and some compromises made.

many males will feel insecure if their woman goes out to an evening alone with *some guy* (i say it like this because i'm referring more to situations where the men are not familiar/on good terms with eachother).

solutions which i would (in that situation) find helpful, as the male, would be to get aquainted with all of my girlfriend's friends.

i don't think that's too much to ask, or being nosy/prying/protective.

sometimes it's also just a "left-out" syndrome (she's out having fun without me!?)

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In the end we are but wisps

ShaniFaye

you didnt strike me the wrong way lol ...I just sometimes have hard explaining how I think, and I get frustrated. I think in my initial post I said something like "couples do not have to do everything with their friends like they are siamese twins" My friendships...the ones I hold most dear, to be honest are with guys because I dont get along with women in a true friendship kind of way...and they always will be.

In my case there is no way I would be with an SO that would expect other wise. But...thats ME and MY situation and I realize its not going to apply to everyone. In my eyes someone who loves me would not want me to discard people regardless of their sex.

now......Im not at all advocating someones chick hanging out all hours of the day or nite with some one that their significant other doesnt know, going out of town with them or anything like that. I believe the initial poster said something about going to lunch with someone he didnt know...to me thats totally different.


thank you for your well wishes

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I want the diabetic plan that comes with rollover carbs. I dont like the unused one expiring at midnite!!

wilbjammin

If that is a response to me, then you totally missed my point. If you have a partner, you decide with that partner what a date is, and what that would look like with other people compared to just haning out. I see this whole issue as being really only important between those in relationships communicating with each other.

The problem isn't guys, it is having good guy friends... and the same with having friends in general. I've found that since I've entered a great relationship I don't want to waste my time on old "friendships" that didn't give me much more than a way to pass the time. The quality often isn't there...

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Innominate.

ShaniFaye

no no no...that wasnt a response to you...just a response in general about feeling like I cant get my point across the right way

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I want the diabetic plan that comes with rollover carbs. I dont like the unused one expiring at midnite!!

ManWithAPlan

wil, it's hard to "decide what a date is" because you can't be like "so yeah, no dinner with other guys/girls... no movies with other guys/girls..."

__________________
In the end we are but wisps

Menoman

I wasn't trying to say that "you" were like that Manwithaplan. Sorry I read what I wrote and it seems that way.

I meant that all guys are like that.



Bringing in a completely assinine response about screwing my sister is not gonna help your case, unless your trying to make it look like your grabbing at straws here.

Put yourself into this situation:

Your in a club, there is a female you find attractive at the bar, you chill for a bit scoping out the situation, then you go talk to her.

Are you gonna be trying to find out where her first family settlers of USA came from? Or you trying to figure out if the drapes matchthe curtains?

Now, your with this chick, and another girl comes in... She's even more attractive than the first! She sits beside you and starts chatting it up. Then she says Hey, wanna go to my house?

"No Thanks I'm gonna go watch a movie and read a nice book tonight." .....? I don't think so.

To make it more complicated, you could add in less attractive women, that chances are you won't give a second glance the second they walk into the door. Because they are lower on the list that you have.

Would you walk up to a ugly girl and be like hey how are you? Doubtful... would you walk up to a drop dead gorgeous girl? Chances are yes. And its not because you think her personality is better.

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wilbjammin

I don't think so... not in my relationship. The key is just to be up front. There are going to be girls that want to hang out with me and guys that want to hang out with my girlfriend. The important thing for us is to establish boundaries. Everyone knows that I'm in a relationship and that she's in a relationship. If I'm going to go to a movie with someone that's a friend and happens to be a girl I'm going to tell my girlfriend about that first. First thing when I get home I'm going to tell her what happened. Just like I want to know first thing what happened when she does things with her friends. I let her know the kinds of things that make me jealous, and she lets me know what bothers her. If you don't talk about any of these things then you'll have a vacuum in the relationship. If you can't talk about these things then you have a communication or a trust problem.

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Innominate.

The Phenomenon

In the evening i WOULD be available.

Doos

Now if you're in a relationship and your SO is not there you say "Man, I would have fucked her brains out when I was single." and you order another drink and reflect on how fortunate you are to not have to chase tail anymore.

So, not all guys are like that, if they have a modicum of decency.

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Don't be alarmed, I'm an African.

Conscience is what hurts when everything else feels good.

Menoman

Ok, your right.

But that just proves that if you were to "Befriend" that female that you met in the bar. Sex would be part of the "friendship". Because thats exactly what you were thinking about when you first saw her... Sex.

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Vaultboy

I have read your thread in the Ladies Lounge ShaniFaye, and I have to ask if you ignored the girls who does not agree with you? More important than the numbers, have you looked at their reasons? It vindicates what a lot of guys have been saying here.

And a few things that I think you are ignoring:
1. Just because there is no ACTIVE sexual energy between you and your friends does not mean that there never wil be.
2. Many women said that some of their male friends did register an interest in getting more out of the relationship, but tat they didn't pursue it because it would jeopardise the friendship, etc etc. Your logic in seeing this as instances of sex not being involved boggles me. You dont have to be bonking for there to be sexual energy in a relationship, even if its only coming from one side. Because to any boyfriend that represents a clear and present danger. The fact that you turned him down did not automatically make his feelings go away. Yes, he is able to restrain himself from jumping you, but that is no great feat. Most men entertain the thought of fucking half the women they see, but they dont. Even Doos in his post above betrayed that basic "Would I or wouldn't I?" reflex thought that flashes through the male subconscious.

Ignoring the facts doesn't change them, ShaniFaye.

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"Failing tastes of bile and dog vomit. Pity any man that gets used to that taste."

Doos

In a situation like you describe, sex would always be part of the "friendship". Using the logic of some people on this thread, what are you doing out without yr SO anyway? And if you're single you're good to go.

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Don't be alarmed, I'm an African.

Conscience is what hurts when everything else feels good.

Doos

Hell, I'd change that quote to "especially Doos". You just gots to be stronger than yr instincts.

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Don't be alarmed, I'm an African.

Conscience is what hurts when everything else feels good.

The Phenomenon

I agree with Vault Boy and Doos completely.

I cannot imagine a guy initially talking to a girl searching for purely platonic friendship. I can't.

__________________
Do not confuse altruism with kindness, good will or respect for the rights of others. These are not primaries, but consequences, which, in fact, altruism makes impossible. The irreducible primary of altruism, the basic absolute, is self-sacrifice - which means: self-immolation, self-abnegation, self-denial, self-destruction - which means: the self as a standard of evil, the selfless as a standard of the good.

Fallon

So let's see. Apparently there is sexual tension everywhere. I'll agree to that in part. Yes I feel physically attracted to some people but because I'm attracted to them and I'm engaged to someone else doens't mean that I want to go out and fuck them(because that's all it'd be) on the side. Now, I've been stupid in the past, but that has raised my resolve in being commited. I also do know that restraining someone from doing something is an ABSOLUTELY stupid thing to do because eventually there will be resentment. I don't care how you try to reason it, it will arise. I know if my fiancee said, "You can't go out with females to dinner or a movie." I'd be pissed, and I know if I pulled the same on her, she would also.
In previous relationships, my ex was hanging over all guys. I asked her to stop and if anything, she did it more.
I believe you go on a case-by-case basis. I would not have a problem if she went out with one of her close friends, but if it was some random guy, I'd be worried and I'd let her know but I wouldn't restrain her. I'd let her make up her own mind because that shows faith and trust in the other.

Vaultboy

No, but women have to believe the contrary, otherwise it undermines their value as indivuals and reduces them to sex objects. I'm Serious. This is the main reason why women refuse to believe the argument put up here by many posters. But that is a different thread...

Back on topic:

The key issue here is whether men have a problem with their girlfriend having other male friends, and if so, why. I think that a lot of posters here have gotten too hung up on dick+pussy=sex. Sexual energy is not always translated into sex. And even if there s no sexual energy between them, there are other threats and factors to your SO having male friends that can undermine your relationship. But as Mantus pointed out, this needs to be evaluated on a case by case basis of youre relationship and your respective character.

I also find it funny how a lot of the women in the Ladies Lounge could so quickly justify their friendships with men, yet piss on their friendships with women. These same women chastise the "jealous men" for saying "all men want pussy".

What's good for the goose....

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"Failing tastes of bile and dog vomit. Pity any man that gets used to that taste."

Vaultboy

So, basically you are saying: "I've been one of those guys that the jealous boyfriends are talking about, but I'm not anymore, so its stupid of them to think that there any more guys like that left. ".

How is this supposed to convince them?

And in case you missed it, most of what's been said i.t.o. of handling such insecurities have been for the guys to talk to their SO's about it, and to share their feelings on the matter. Not to tell them "I prohibit you from doing do this or that". Everyone here recognises that that sort of action is indicitive of the relationship failing already. I'm not flaming or trolling you here, but hav you actually read the whole thread?

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"Failing tastes of bile and dog vomit. Pity any man that gets used to that taste."

The Phenomenon

Good points VaultBoy - Us South Africans seem to know all the answers

Men do not approach women for friendship. If your GF has male friends, chances are they had a sexual attraction to her at some point. And that makes most BFs skin crawl.

__________________
Do not confuse altruism with kindness, good will or respect for the rights of others. These are not primaries, but consequences, which, in fact, altruism makes impossible. The irreducible primary of altruism, the basic absolute, is self-sacrifice - which means: self-immolation, self-abnegation, self-denial, self-destruction - which means: the self as a standard of evil, the selfless as a standard of the good.

Fallon

No, I haven't been one of those guys. You'd have to understand the situation I was in which I've posted in other threads.

And I have read the whole thread and it looks like more and more of guys saying that since sex is going to be the only reason for a relationship with a female, females in a relationship shouldn't have guy friends when I don't believe that's the case.

The Phenomenon

No thats not what's being said. i am saying that INITIALLY there is no other reason for a guy approaching a girl.

__________________
Do not confuse altruism with kindness, good will or respect for the rights of others. These are not primaries, but consequences, which, in fact, altruism makes impossible. The irreducible primary of altruism, the basic absolute, is self-sacrifice - which means: self-immolation, self-abnegation, self-denial, self-destruction - which means: the self as a standard of evil, the selfless as a standard of the good.

Vaultboy

No, what's being said that SO's in a commited relationship shouldn't be going on dates or date-like scenarios with their male friends, (given whatever reasons vatrious posters have supplied) . People don't exist in a vacuum. Of course women would still have friends outside the relationship, but it is being argued that the nature of those relationships should be changed to a degree that satisfies both partners.

Just to through the cat amongst the pidgeons, I ask this:
Lets say that if a male friend knows about a conflict such as this, shouldn't he out of his own start to scale down contact with the female party, esppecially since he knows that she's in a relationship she values? If he doesn't, what are his motives?

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"Failing tastes of bile and dog vomit. Pity any man that gets used to that taste."

The Phenomenon

VaultBoy you touch on something interesting that I have noticed here on this forum. The man's say in the relationship is completely disregarded by many of the women here, who are quite on the feminist side some of them, and any attempt of any man to havy any say is seen as an effort by him to control and own the woman like an object.

__________________
Do not confuse altruism with kindness, good will or respect for the rights of others. These are not primaries, but consequences, which, in fact, altruism makes impossible. The irreducible primary of altruism, the basic absolute, is self-sacrifice - which means: self-immolation, self-abnegation, self-denial, self-destruction - which means: the self as a standard of evil, the selfless as a standard of the good.

ManWithAPlan

i agree.


and the problem with setting boundaries is that some people (like me) just really don't want to infringe on their SO's personal space and make them completely self-concious all the time or.. *ramble*

__________________
In the end we are but wisps

Mantus

Too many responses on this thread mention the fact that sex is the first thought on a guys mind when he approaches a girl. Yet this thread is about friends. A friend is not some one she picks up at a bar the night before. If a girl chooses to keep a male friend while she is in a relationship it is because she has a history with him. Let’s keep this discussion relative shall we; don’t mix responces to random men and acquaintances in with friends.

Male-Female friendships 101.

So many guys seem to believe that sex is the only thing on a guy’s mind when they befriend a girl. This could not be further from the truth. The more involved a friendship becomes the more there is to risk with an attempt to engage a sexual relationship. If two people go though enough together they begin to feel like siblings. A different kind of love develops and sex becomes the very last thing on their minds. This does happen. There is more to people then their sex drives.

It should also be noted that most friendships between men and women develop though professional circumstances. As they work together a friendship develops. Eventually a bid to get closer is made by one of them. This is either turned down or they give it a try and it doesn’t work. Whatever their path; their already developed relationship and the fact that they must continue to work together gives them a chance to develop a genuine friendship after sex goes off the menu.

In most genuine friendships between a guy and a girl sex has already been dealt with. If it hasn’t then chances are that the guy is what is referred too as an intellectual whore. These men really don’t offer that much of a threat. As I mentioned before, keeping your relationship healthy will prevent any problems from such men.

ShaniFaye

Thank you Mantus....I honestly couldnt figure out why people kept talking about randomly meeting people etc. Im glad to know I was not the only one that noticed that.

Vaultboy....I will just say this...yes there were people that disagreed...I never said every woman in that thread agreed. And that my point was as Mantus mentioned....people you've had a history with when you meet your SO. I could be wrong and Im sure I'll be corrected if I am....I dont recall mentioning sexual engery....I asked the ladies if they had male friends where no actual sex was involved.

after double checking what I asked...the question indeed was

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I want the diabetic plan that comes with rollover carbs. I dont like the unused one expiring at midnite!!

ManWithAPlan

and yet the lover is also the closest person and best friend... (if anyone can see what i'm saying... i don't really know how to explain it)

__________________
In the end we are but wisps

Prince

Of course I check out a woman's T&A, whether they're a friend of mine or not, if the goods are being displayed. I'm married, not dead... But because I am married, I won't sample them even if the opportunity came along. But that's just me.

And therein lies the problem. That it is just me, and furthermore, this is often a conscious decision. That you will not fuck that busty 18-year-old because you're married - not because you don't want to.

Not all people make these conscious decisions, and not all people who do make them are capable of holding onto them, or respecting others for their decisions.

A man can even befriend a woman with the explicit intention of drilling holes into her existing relationship. This is easier for a friend to do than one might think, because a friendship is typically not burdened by the same things as a long-term romantic relationship. You don't wake up to each other's morning breath, you don't know each other's bodies intimately enough for you to have lost interest in that regard, you don't share bills, chores, etc. And when a spouse has problems in the marriage, he or she is often more likely to bring them up first with a friend than with their own SO. A clever individual can easily take advantage of this position, and a less than clever individual may find it hard to resist - especially since that "special friend" may be already providing tremendous emotional comfort and closeness that the marital problems have made one crave.

I actually think the Ladder Theory, while it has some gaps, is fairly accurate if you feel the need to have some sort of weird guideline to go by. It doesn't apply to all situations and people, though, just as few rules ever do.

I find it interesting that so many women that I've discussed the subject matter with actually believe that they can tell whether their male friend/acquaintance is interested in them, sexually. Friendship, unlike marriage, is not covered by laws, there are no official agreements, it is all in your mind, expressed via actions, which can sometimes be misleading.

Ultimately, it comes down to this: in every relationship, there are two factors involved - namely, two people. One of which cannot, ever, under any given circumstances, know for a fact what the other person is thinking or feeling. It is interesting that so many women are so determined to argue that there can be friendships in which there is no sexual energy involved, and so many men are arguing that this isn't the case. While there obviously is no hard rule, as we're all different, I know what I am more likely to put my money on.

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Who is John Galt?

Mantus

ManWithAPlan,

Not really sure what you mean by that. Do you want your girl to have just one friend in the whole world? You.

Prince,

The ladder theory is a very good guideline to relationships. Knowing it you should be aware that the most common type of male friend for a girl is an intellectual whore. They are on the other ladder and chances are that they will never get across. Generally the longer one knows a girl the harder it is to jump ladders. While they may drill holes in your relationship they will never get in bed with her. She will not leave you for them, but they may destabilize a relationship.

To avoid this, get to know her friends and make sure that you are her best friend.

Your major competitor some random guy she is aware off and finds fuckable; some one who she hasn’t had too much contact with but just enough to have some fun with.

Finally and this has been bothering me in thread for a while now. Why are the guys here leaving the girls out of the decision making process on whether she will have sex with another guy or not? Women have minds. They don’t just drop their panties every time a guy makes a move on them. For example, Prince, here you are saying that you trust yourself not to jump another woman but yet you don’t trust your wife stay turn down the advances of another man? C’mon now.

That’s where the trust has to be. A guy does his best to keep the relationship smooth. Now the guy has to trust his girl to love him and be faithful. If he cannot trust his girl to turn down another guy's advances then why the hell is he going though all this trouble for her in the first place?

Prince

Well, the way I see it, I know what I can and cannot resist. I cannot do another person's thinking for them; their choices are ultimately theirs.

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Who is John Galt?

ManWithAPlan

Mantis:
that's basically what i meant

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In the end we are but wisps