I'm thinking we could probably treat it like an oligarchy.

Hey, and Fallon, your comment about thoughts of suicide? I can appreciate that. They usually only hit in the wee hours of the morning, but it felt like things were so out of control and there was no way to stop the out-of-control railroad that was my life at that point.

It didn't help that right after everything came out, I lost my job so I didn't even have that as a distraction.

And it's funny how you mention divorce and the Catholic Church. My wife is (was) Catholic and they effectively told her she was no longer welcome in the church if she married me. Nice to have a forgiving God, eh?

Great Dow, there's a lot of poison in this thread. As a person who has been cheated on, more than once, I can honestly say that I think some of you are making way too big a deal, or at least a lot of the nastiness is uncalled for. The sweeping generalizations don't really cut it - it depends on the person and their emotional state at the time. In my opinion, when a person cheats in a relationship, it's a clear sign that the relationship is in trouble, obviously. But if you were paying attention, then you already knew that before you found out the other person cheated, and frankly - the worst part of the pain in finding out that you've been cheated on is the realization that you can't lie to yourself any more. The relationship really was in trouble, even if you didn't want to admit it.

I'm not excusing the actions of people who have cheated, but I would also say that we're all only human, and we all do things that we later regret or wish we had done differently, and that's part of learning. I would say that the phrase that started this whole thing, probably is more accurate for a short period of time. A person who is in an emotional state and relationship in which they are unfaithful is probably more likely to cheat, until they've had the time to (potentially) learn from what happened and realize that coming clean almost always is easier in the long run. However, I know too many people who have changed as they've grown older and matured to say that you can place that kind of stigma on people for their lives. Furthermore, the more of that attitude that you profess with such vehemence, the less likely you are to find out the truth about your significant others past and / or if they're cheating on you now.

Additionly, I would like to add that cheating on your SO is a moral transgression, but not the only moral transgression. Before one starts making sweeping moral statements and castigating people who have cheated before so strongly, I'd make sure that you're morally perfect. Glass houses and stones. For example, in the relationships where my girlfriend has cheated on me, while I don't approve of the way they handled their situations, I can honestly say that I was not a perfect boyfriend, either. I did things that I knew weren't going to make my girlfriend happy. Does that make what she did morally justified? Well, no, not really, but then again I honestly think they were reacting to a situation in the best way they knew at the time.

That was a great post, pigglet, and if you didn't read it all or skimmed it, go back and read it all. Yeah, it's that good.

I picked from your post what I think is most important. People stray when the relationship is already broken. So you have to ask, is it imprtant enough to fix? It might be, but it might not be.

I won't bother to defend myself because frankly the only opinions that matter in regards to my situation are mine and my exs. I will say my reasons for the 2 times it happened were anger and apathy, respectively. First time, I was just so pissed, I did as I pleased. Second time, it was only cheating cause I did it the week before I broke up with her instead of after.

I felt bad about it the first time, because well I felt bad about everything in our relationship. Was it the wrong way to handle problems in our relationship... well duh, but it was the path I took.
Second, I just didn't care about the relationship. The only reason I was still in the relationship was because I promised to wait until a specific date, so I did.

As for the go drown myself comments...
Fuck you

I'm glad your world is so simple, that every choice you make is the right one and you are always the person wronged. For some of us, the shit flies both ways and bad choices are made.

IMO, people can change, but it takes alot of work to build trust again.....

Great post pigglet. I couldn't have said it better myself. I also feel that there is a lot of unresolved anger and pointless provocation in this thread. A lot of people need to read your post, then go and do some thinking.

I came to the same conclusion reading the cheating thread in the Ladies Lounge. The comments of "he left me for a girl who is much lower than me" especially caught my attention.

Pigglet, thanks for adding some balanced common sense to this discussion

What is the definition of 'cheating'. Is it just defined as having sex with someone other than your SO with out your SO's permission? Or is it more than sex that could be considered cheating? I think it is. I think 'cheating' comes in many forms in our relationships. When a person is 'cheated' on sexually, it is a breaking of some kind of intimacy bond and expectation that the person cheated on had for that relationship. If a couple was in a relationship where it was made clear that they could have sex outside the relationship then it would not be 'cheating' to do so. We all have expectations and needs in relationships and so often our SO's, intentionally or not, hurt us by breaking those expectionations and not fulfilling those needs. If our SO knows that we have a need or an expectation in a relationship and continues not to fulfill that if he/she is capable of doing so, isn't that 'cheating'? And if your SO knows that they are not fulfilling something you need when he/she is able, wouldn't the loving thing to do be to allow you to fulfill that need somewhere else?

Take Nitrox's case for example. He had a need (like we all do) for sexual intimacy. Sounds like his SO knew this as he told her over and over again and yet she continued to deny him this need in his life. Wouldn't you say that she was 'cheating' on him with her mom because she was taking away the intimacy and bond of thier relationship in place of time with her mom? Wasn't it unloving of her to know that he had this need, which she could fulfill, but refused to fulfill, and yet continue to deny him some other way to fulfill it? And honestly, how did she have any right to demand he keep that part of thier relationship between just them, when she had proven for 4 years she didn't want that part of thier relationship?

I don't say any of that to justify sexual cheating, but we should make clear that we can cheat our SO's in so many other ways that are just as hurtful, but are not defined as 'cheating'. Along the same lines as what Pigglet said, a relationship is two sided and in all likely hood both sides are responsible for breaking it to the point where one sexually cheats. There is no justification for hurting each other, however it may be. All we have is mercy and forgiveness. And we should all take a look at ourselves with humility and realize we need as much mercy and forgiveness as anyone else.

"I also think it's interesting how "cheaters" seem to understand that they won't do it again but not many other people seem willing to accept that. Before you judge me, walk a mile in my shoes to see how it feels to be me and I bet it could change your perception."

Yep. Well said.

reading this thread made me relive all the things I have been dealing with for the past few months.

cheating is anything that involves getting anything outside of the relationship that is not warranted. ie Sex/emotions/any type of intimacy.

I am living through a hell I couldn't even imagine or wish upon my worst enemy before this started.

I cheated on someone I truely cared about with a girl I beleived was my true love. ( I understand most will not think of this as a possibility.)

I wake up thinking of how I hurt someone I truely had a great relationship with. I think through the day how I hurt so many people around me and her. I hold all the guilt and anger that she would have in me. While carrying my own guilt and pain, for what I have done.

Ontop of this after the break up I was with the girl I cheated with. I wanted it to be something. I wanted so much for this not to be a cheating for nothing situation.
I wanted her to understand that I am not the type who would say all the things I said for nothing. I do not feel she was a "mistake" or "the other woman"
I am now filled with hurt for she has now left me. The pain of that doubles with every day as I can't seem to put anthing in order to understand. I can't seem to think straight.

Once a cheater always a cheater?
After living in this hell for awhile I can say if I ever get out of it I don't ever want to return to it. Nothing is worth this torrment. I fight a depression as I hold all the hurt for me and them in me. I hold all the pain and guilt of the whole situation.

You want to judge me fine. I can tell you though you can say nothing more to me than I think I deserve. I deserve all the pain and hurt. I derserve all the feelings I am feeling. I want to get out this hell but not before I cut myself deep with this to ensure that I and no one around me ever has to deal with this side of me.

I swear to myself because I am the one who has to be here in my soul all my own days. That I will NEVER want to come back to this. IF I can ever get out.

Well said and you aren't alone in your pain.

"Well said and you aren't alone in your pain."

Agreed....

I have come very close to cheating, but didn't. Why? I still cared enough about the relationship not to do it. Now? I know I could cheat, due to the horrible deterioration of the relationship that has happened over the years. Most of the reason I stay with her is our kid, and the fact I have not the funds to start a new life. I'm not happy with her but I just can't "get out" like everyone says is so easy. Most of my unhappiness is obviously sexual, and if someone offered to make me feel desired then you're damn right I'll cheat. I will say if I was in love with someone I couldn't cheat on them for anything.

I hate to see people say...if the marriage/relationship is bad just get out of it...like you can just walk out the door and never look back....if these "relationships" were that easy...my guess is a lot of cheating wouldnt happen

I happen to be a believer that just BECAUSE the cheating happened once..there is every possiblity it wont happen again

just my two cents

I don't have any sympathy for cheaters. You feel bad about it? Like you deserve an award for that? :rolleyes: You SHOULD feel bad, you did something wrong. It's just too bad that your humanity kicked in an orgasm too late.

--The following is based on the assumption that "relationship" refers to a real connection, not some fling that's been going on for 3 months--

No matter how bad your relationship was, you really upped the ante by actually going out and nailing somebody else (in 99% of the cases). I suppose that, if I could be objective about this, I would say that, if your partner and you can get over it, great, but asking for "understanding" is just beyond the pale. As well ask us to sympathize with the murderer as much as the murdered.

As far as retiring the phrase "once a cheater, always a cheater," I propose the opposite- I think the phrase should be embossed on the front of every public building, as well as any place where one can get married. Unless you're old, or have a child, or something out of this world with the other person, there's no reason to stick with someone who cheats on you. Life's too short to stay with someone who has pretty well betrayed your love in the lowest way possible. It doesn't matter how bad you feel, it's unreasonable to ask or expect that you can be trusted again.

As a general statement, God damned right. :icare:

My My My, I didn't mean for this thread to degenerate like it seems to be headed, alas I should have known with such a topic. A topic that is securely fastened to deep seated emotions on both sides.

I would ask though, to those who can't see change. Did your experiences really create such an apatthetic look upon society that you cannot accept that humans mistake and at the same time change?

People can change, we have seen it happen. This fact is compunded if/when the cheater really feels the weight of his/her actions through the actions of the poeple around them. If the consequences are severe enough they can only help a person see the change needed in their lives.

How can you determine if someone really is going to change?

How can you put your trust in someone who shown you that they're willing to violate your trust?

The potential to change doesn't always (or usually, in my experience) translate into change. I haven't heard much of a reason in these threads for someone to have a renewal of faith in someone who's cheated on them.

Why should those has been cheated on take the responsibility to show cheaters "the light" about the evils of their ways and work to help them? How do you measure the upside of that and the necessity to protect one's self from emotional harm?

How does apathy have anything to do with this? You make it sound as if it is easy for people to dump cheaters, when that is almost always not the case even for repeat offenders. It is so hard to walk away, and it gets harder as time passes.

Sure people change, and they should change, but many don't. The truth is that by accepting a cheater back in your life you are, in essense, enabling the cheater to continue to cheat. The message is - it is ok, in the end it all works out. I don't know what kind of real consequences you could give to cheaters that says "this is wrong, I won't allow you to hurt me like this" while at the same time keeping them close-at-hand.

I have found that it is much easier to forgive someone after I have let go of them and removed all sense of responsibility of them from my life. It isn't exactly the most romantic approach, but it is a realistic measure.

Cheating creates a major ethical and moral issue for the person who has been cheated on. And these decisions and questions that arise are very unfair, perhaps, in fact, the most unfair part of being cheated on.

[edit: damnit, this was supposed to be wilbjammin again]

Do I expect anything from you? Yes, I expect you to be respectful of myself as I am to you. I don't go around claiming that you should go kill yourself because what you've done in your past offends me. Do I expect anything else from you? No. I spoke my opinion in the hopes that people would be willing to look at it and understand that not every person is the same. I was not trying to get you understand why a person cheats, I was telling you about my experience with it. I guess I might also be guilty for trying to stick up for a group of people that I am a part of in the hopes that we wouldn't get comments that tell us that we should be dead because someone would actually THINK before they posted something. And much against my desires, I will not respond in the way that I wish because I do not feel that it'd help the discussion.

This is not a black and white subject which many people seem to believe it is.

My girlfriend before my fiancee was a very flirty girl. Depending on a persons interpretation of what cheating is, she would be guilty of it on most except up to the point of sleeping with this other kid. I understand the reluctance of people who do not want to go out with someone who has cheated on them or someone else in the past. Within a month of going out with my fiancee she shared a passionate kiss with her ex-boyfriend. This was less then a month into the relationship, yet I forgave her.

So by defination, according to some, she should go drown because she cheated on me. I should drop her like quicker then you can say hello. Plain and simple. Right?

Now that is complete and utter bullshit.
If you actually thought about it and got the whole story you'd realize that there was more to it. This gentleman that she kissed was her past boyfriend(red flag for some, yes. It was for me, but I got past that). Their kiss, although uncalled for, was not initiated by her but she didn't totally resist it(moot point basically, he started, she didn't stop, I brought this up with our talk about it). It was a goodbye kiss between the two of them because they still had a few unresolved issues.
Did this piss me off? You're damn right it did.
How did I know that it was a goodbye kiss? I looked past her words and tried to understand her intentions. I watched her cry and beg for forgiveness. I took ALL of that in, and forgave her because I believed her. Had I just thrown it all out then I would have lost out on some of my better years.

Edit: Fixed a typo and made something a bit more clear.

How can you determine if someone really is going to change?
I believe it should be based on their actions and what they say. If you don't feel the sincerity of what they say and or you doubt that they truthfully mean it

How can you put your trust in someone who shown you that they're willing to violate your trust?
I can't answer for you, but like I said, I based it upon actions and words. More-so based on their actions.

The potential to change doesn't always (or usually, in my experience) translate into change. I haven't heard much of a reason in these threads for someone to have a renewal of faith in someone who's cheated on them.
I'm sorry I can't translate all of the events regarding what I did to show that I changed but their is a significant difference from myself now, and three years ago. Regretfully, you'll either have to take my word for it or throw it out like others have. My whole attitude regarding my relationship with her has changed and we came out of it a bit more tattered then we should have, but we came out of it and we're still happily together and it opened our communication greatly.

Sure people change, and they should change, but many don't. The truth is that by accepting a cheater back in your life you are, in essense, enabling the cheater to continue to cheat. The message is - it is ok, in the end it all works out. I don't know what kind of real consequences you could give to cheaters that says "this is wrong, I won't allow you to hurt me like this" while at the same time keeping them close-at-hand.
If my understanding of what you said is that it basically says that they can do it again and again, I have to disagree. Look at my posts, look at Nitrox's posts, look at Kazic's post. Her forgiving me has not given me the greenlight to go ahead and cheat on her again and again and again.

It always bothered me how some people see cheating as just a 'mistake'. It's a lot worse than that; it's a betrayal. And in my opinion, it's something can't be forgiven.

It really pisses me off when cheaters try to act like victims. If they were unhappy in the relationship, they can try to fix things or just end the relationship. Going behind the back of their SO and betraying makes them cowards.

I've been cheated on once. Because of that, I have huge trust issues now. There's no way I'll ever be able to forget the feeling of being stabbed in the back by the person that I loved.. That's not fair, I just didn't deserve that.

In my opinion, a person that cheated once is just as low as a person that cheats many times. Screw cheaters.

I give up, congratulations.
I am scum, excuse me while I go wallow in my own self-pity because I feel no remorse for ANY of my cheating ways. Anyone know of a lake I can drown myself in? Because apparently that's what I should be doing. Or off screwing myself because I'm such an evil person. I am lower then dirt blah blah blah.
Give me a break.

"Screw cheaters"

I agree, and while were at it, screw hypocrites, screw people who believe in religion, screw atheists, screw vegetarians, screw Microsoft employees, and especially screw that crazy guy who is always talking to himself downtown.

Fallon, can't you hear how selfish you sound? You went and did this thing, but you WANT us, practically DEMAND of us, the relative community at large, to commiserate with you? Sure, you hurt somebody, but think of your feelings? Think of how much this hurts the cheater as well as the cheated? How dare you? Seriously, where do you or any other cheater get off trying to compare how bad you feel to how bad the person that gets cheated on feels?

My favorite things is where various cheaters have posted that they weren't in a good situation, that the other person wasn't perfect either, and that, come on, dressed like that, at that time of night, in that neighborhood, she was just begging for it.

Grow up. You did a truly awful thing. Stop asking for forgiveness, you don't deserve it. Not that the balance of your life couldn't still qualify you as a good person, but that mark will always be there. Live with it, don't do it again, stop whining about how everyone looks down on you for it, and just move on.

And in all seriousness, did you truly expect people who don't cheat and have been cheated on to even WANT to empathize with you? Unreal.

I don't demand you commiserate, I ask you not to be an ass and claim that me killing myself is the best thing that I should do. I ask you to look more into a situation because not everything is black and white.

But, since I'm a lesser person then you, I bow to your will.
*goes off to find a river to go drown himself in or a knife to kill himself with*

Shades, I beg to differ on your take on this. I added my commentary not to "beg for foregiveness". I don't need yours or any others foregiveness. I merely added my thoughts to show a different side of this.

Whether you choose to tell me go drown myself or rattle off on some other diatribe is your choice. It doesn't affect how I will spend my day or how I will feel about myself.

It's funny how christianity will say foregive the sinner but not the sin, yet we have people here professing that we, the cheaters, should be shot, drowned, or tarred and feathered.

I never once began this thread thinking that foregiveness was being sought. Rather, that the label "once a cheater, always a cheater" was an untrue statement. I chimed in to say, "Yeah, I agree. People can change".

But lo and behold, the people claiming that they had been cheated on voiced up and said that this was an untrue statement.

Given that, I ask you, how the hell can you state that, when you were never in the situation to know that.

speaking as the person that was cheated on here....

That statement right there bothers me more than ANY other statement thats been made..even the "you should be dead" posts.

Why exactly doesnt this person deserve forgiveness?

I don't understand why someone would come to a message board asking for forgiveness. And, I don't think they are asking for it here.

What is interesting is the passive-aggressive self-martyrdom tact that is being taken. If you disagree with someone, you should be able to do that without it being a personal attack, or being overly-defensive.

My main point still is that cheating puts the person on in a major moral and ethical dilemma. It isn't fair and it can easily put a long-lasting chain of doubt into a relationship, esp. if anything ever goes wrong.

If you have cheated the first thing you need to come to terms with is yourself. Getting others to agree with you that you've changed isn't really the point. The point is that you know that you've changed. Convincing others is totally meaningless. If you really want people to believe that you've changed and that is important to you, then I think you should ask yourself "why?" The importance of that task is something that is beyond me.

If we go back to the original point of the thread, it was being tired of hearing the saying, "Once a cheater, always a cheater." I feel that it's important to let people know that people do change because it's apparently hard for some people to see that people's attitudes can and do change. Thoughts and emotions change how a person acts. The feelings and emotions that are felt from both the 'cheater' and the person they cheated on weigh on the person and, depending on that person's motivations afterwards, guide how they act from then on. With this saying, it can hold someone back from trying to try to mend themselves because they think that they will be stuck in that cycle.

IMO someone who has cheated has crossed the line and shown that they are capable of cheating, if only once. Whether or not they will repeat their actions is up to the person.

I think the saying "once a cheater always a cheater" is more indicative of the insecurities of the other half of the relationship than the proclivities of the offender. it's a cliche that tries to give a generic answer to a question that doesn't always fit the mold.

I was that cheaqter, and I must admit it was hard to not cheat for a while.. Mostly I think it was a maturity thing.. I was more into th ethrill of the chase and not the relationship..

I've since grown up and am with a woman I love who gives me everything I need and more and with whom I can be myself for good or bad. I think it was a combination of being with the right person at the right time of my life.

If I could take back all the wrongs I've done I would.. But for me, I've learned form my mistakes and won't repeat them.. My g/f was one of the women I cheated on my ex with, she knows all about the others ( I was a distraction to her at the time as she likes to call me) I love her and trust her and I believe she feels the same for me..

I finally allowed myself to be loved she has given me that love.. the sex is just an added bonus.

no different than people thinking that you are a thief... once a thief always a thief....

if you can't deal with the "persecution" of being branded as such... then heed the warning and chose your actions more carefully for OTHER things that you do.

If you can't do the time, don't do the crime.

I'm posting way late on this but I thought I would add my two cents in. I was cheated on by several men, this gave me trust issues and it took me a couple years to trust my husband completely because of this.

Now I don't think once a cheater always a cheater, but I do believe if you cheat on a person, you are more likely to repeat it again while you are with that person. However you could move on to the next relationship and never stray.

Everyone has definations of cheating, luckily my husband and I both have the same moral standards and agree what is appropriate behaviour and what is not.

And lastly if you are having so many problems that you feel the need to cheat, see a counseller, get a divorce, but make sure you have tried everything you can before you stray, because you guys are still hurting, and even though you may have been forgiven by your partners or not, you have to live with it and so do they.

It is easy to forgive, but almost impossible to forget.

Having been the "Ross" in a "Ross and Rachel" relationship a la Friends, there are times when a woman will say she wants a break and guys will misunderstand it.

She told me she wanted some time apart, to maybe see other people and try to make our relationship more healthy.

I wasn't looking to "hook up" that same night, but night, but when the woman you loves tells you that stuff, you tend to spend the night drinking. Sigh.

I have a few more opinions:
1. Yes, it is Black and White. Your are either a cheater, or you are the one who was cheated on.
2. I don't think anyone who cheats should drown, kill, mame, or feel any worse than they should already feel for cheating. Own up to it.
3. What happens to other peoples relationships is none of my business so do not put a heavy judgement on those that cross the line.
4. When I am the one who faces a cheater, I do not stick around to make amends or try to forgive and forget. There seems to be an underlying issues in a relationship in the first place so I do not feel the need to try and resolve it when it can happen again. Sure, someone can change, but they can change without me.

This is truly a topic that can spark emotions because there are so many of us that have cheated (not me), and so many of us that have been cheated on. I can't seem to conjur up any empathy for those asking for forgiveness. I apply this to me personally, not anyone in this thread that has responded. Again, what you have done in the past is none of my business.

There's far to many circumstances and unique situations to say all cheaters will cheat again.

I find myself mentioning my past with cheating far more often than I ever would have expected, and for far longer.

I was living with this girl in college. We were going to the same school, worked at the same workplace, in the same department, and we even opened a joint checking out near the end of the relationship. Out of the blue, she cheats on me with a fellow co-worker, a married co-worker whose wife also works in our department.

But it wasn't exactly "out of the blue." What you need to understand is that it is never, ever out of the blue. When you're in a genuine relationship, this kind of thing doesn't just happen unless you're bent in the head. For example, I was significantly overweight and spent a huge amount of time on the computer, and she was depressive. I spent a huge amount of time on the computer because she was depressive, which contributed to my weight gain. I'm sure if we all examined those broken relationships, we'd see reasons and signs we missed. We'd see a domino effect. She wasn't a bad person, nor was I an innocent victim. She just had problems that I didn't know the extent of and didn't know how to deal with.

You live and learn. You find someone who's stable and genuinely communicative, and you hang onto them. I graciously backed away from one girl recently who's solid as a rock but silently defensive. If it wasn't for what happened in the past, I'd be jumping in feet first instead of looking for someone who was more open.

I make mistakes too. At my first television station I came back with blue video, and I've never done it again.

The difference is that the blue video was a technical mistake that didn't reflect my attitudes or morals.

If I cheated on my wife, it would be an absolute reflection on my morals. Would I do it again? Maybe, maybe not, but I did it the first time and that indicates that there is at least the possibility that I am still morally bankrupt and might do it again.

It seriously just depends on the person. I cheated on an ex boyfriend once because our relationship was going down the drain anyway, but I'm glad to say that while I have had the chance to, I have never cheated since.

I've cheated, once many years ago and can honestly say I wouldn't do it again.

For me it was more of an experiment. I wanted to know what it was like, I found out, I didn't get caught and the girl I cheated on still doesn't know and never will. (interesting aside, when we broke up she suspected that it was because I was seeing someone else but I was just over her, the affair was done long before.) I got to see first hand how shitty cheating is. But I'm like that. If someone tells me that the plate is hot I have to touch it to find out.

So here's another case of once a cheater, never again a cheater. It's unfortunate that rigid statements like this exist when they don't apply to everyone. There are people though for whom it does apply, it's too bad their bad behaviour sticks to the rest of us.

For previous posters who call it a moral failing, or a loss of integrity that you can never get back, just look at all the people who manage to turn their lives around. It can and does happen.