Prince

Nazggul, a distinguished gentleman from San Francisco, said in another recent thread, that "I think there are a lot of women out there who still find that Alpha Male attitude attractive (or mistake it as confidence or bravado), so don't expect it to change in our lifetime".

I've always found this an interesting subject, and while it has probably been covered ten times over, I don't think it has been very recently, so hopefully someone will be inclined to offer their thoughts.

This is mind-boggling for me, so let me try and wrap my brain around it. It seems to me that many if not most women don't really know what they want, or are simply not happy with what they got once they get it. I'm referring to the choice between the Alpha Male and the Sensitive Type. And typically, it IS a choice, even though some men possess both of these qualities in one habitat. Quite the accomplishment in itself, I might add.

There's the type of woman who is attracted to the Sensitive Type. She likes N'Sync, or any other crappy boy band, possibly because, well, it's a bunch of handsome (in a sort of plastic way) blokes standing nearly topless in the rain, singing about how much they want you back, complete with their altar boy voices. Is there a teengirl in the world who wouldn't find her panties wet just from looking at the CD cover?

Of course not.

Now, according to Desmond Morris, these girls will want this touchy feely guy because the guy possesses certain characteristics that are, of nature, female. These characteristics make the man less threatening, less overpowering. Not to mention the cultural significance of finding a guy who's "romantic". The attentive husband type.

Then there's the girl who digs the Bad Boy. Oh yeah, the lure of the Bad Boy, nothing quite like it I reckon. He's a vile sexual beast and he's going to take you by force -- or at the very least find that zone between extreme determination and the extent of your comfort. He breaks the rules, he's a modern day savage, and you want to be the woman that tames him. There must be something special to him, right?

Well, of course.

This gets complicated when the Sensitive Type turns out to be, well, sensitive. He's not exciting. If someone throws a nasty slur your way, he won't throw a punch at them, he'll want to talk it out like gentlemen. What is he, a dog or a man? He appealed to you because he was easy-going, he agreed with you and was considerate to your thoughts and feelings. The one thing you did not notice was that he didn't have opinions. He simply shared yours. So yeah, he's not exciting. He doesn't throw you on the bed and rip your clothes off. You wish you had gone with the bad boy.

Oh, right, the Bad Boy. Now he's a jewel. Except that you never tamed him, he still fucks other girls on the side, because he's a rebel. But he was supposed to stop being a rebel, or at least not be one towards you. He does throw you on the bed and fuck your brains out...but he doesn't whisper sweet nothings into your ear, and won't even sit down to talk about marriage. Now, that man that Jane is dating, he on the other hand seems kind of boring, but at least he loves to babysit for his friends, wants to get married, makes a decent enough money and doesn't make you reach for the puke bag when you look at him.

And you both wish you had gone the other way...

Okay, so it's an exaggeration. But as most exaggerations, it's also true. In short, most women I know are quite indecisive. I'm not saying that's a bad thing. But they really don't seem to know what they want, and once they have something they want something else. Someone has said, that when a man and a woman hook up, the woman wants the man to change but he doesn't, yet the man doesn't want the woman to change, but she does. My wife for example, she wants me to be a MAN, but can't stand it when I AM.

It's all part of God's evil plan, I tell you.

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Minx

I know exactly what I want. I do understand what you are saying here and you put it quite well actually! Is it any wonder men will NEVER figure us out! heh

I do not like the "bad boy rebel" guy - they aren't worth my time, thanks. But I am a very big fan of the alpha male syndrome. That is, as long as he doesn't try to control my every freakin' move! I am one of those very non-feminist women who likes a man who is in control, who is strong, who is confident. I like a man who takes on the "traditional" role of protector and defender. I like a guy who can take control of a situation without being a bully or taking on a "holier than thou" attitude.

I may piss off a few women here but I personally like it when a man takes "over". I am a very strong person, I have had to be. I don't regret it at all - it has made me a much better person. But you know what....once in a while it would be nice to have a man to lean on, to let him take care of life's little bitches, and to trust without one tiny doubt in his ability to do so.

Ergh...I don't think that came out quite the way I wanted it to but you get the main point! Sappy "sensitive" men need not apply!

Oh wait....that's not to say that a guy who is an obnoxious jerk is good.....no no no! Ohhhh I am so damned articulate today! ergh

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Prince

...not indecisive at all!! lol j/k

I do understand what you're saying. Quite a few women seem to like the guy to take control. However, what taking control means, varies greatly between men and women, I think.

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emphant

In between, and I think these are the guys who do the best with women, are the guys who are alpha males without all the bad stuff.

Strong, confident, etc... but not all extra uncaring and so forth. Has his own opinion, will open doors, but won't hesitate to kick someone's ass if it comes down to it.

I'd say 65% alpha 35% sensitive is the best combo.

ChrisJericho

Women are simple, they crave a man that doesn't exist. For example every women's dream man is:

Stong but sensitive.
Can fix the car but also cook.
Enjoys watching football but will still see chick flicks with her.
Doesn't pay her any attention, yet will will still rememebr her birthday.

Blah Blah Blah You get the point. Basically women have no idea what they want. Do not try to analyze their irrational behaviors.

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anti fishstick

for the first time, i feel as if i know exactly what i want, and i have it. i want a mixture of the two. a balance. i want someone who can be a beast in bed, yet still have a sweet, sensitive "romantic" side. i want someone who's a bit of a rebel to society and the way things work but still able to contribute in an orderly manner. i want someone i can be equal with, where no one "wears the pants", yet still be completely devoted to me. as i'll be completely devoted to him. yes, i also like strong, confident men who can take care of me. and watch over me. but it is a lot of give and take.

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pyraxis

And then there are the women who are attracted to genuine confidence. I get sick of hearing guys complain about how it's a lose-lose situation, because it's not. Both the sensitive guy and the bad boy are insecure in their own ways. One is scared of rejection, so he treats women like glass while hiding and harboring any deep resentment or disagreement. It doesn't work -- you can't hide that kind of thing forever. The other is scared of losing control and letting people see that he cares about anything, so he puts up a shield and won't commit. Unfortunately sometimes women mistake this for genuine confidence.

What I, and I suspect many women, look for is someone who isn't afraid to get what they want out of life, but also isn't afraid of emotional intensity. We're not perfect. We can be fooled. But that's where a lot of this conflict comes from. And it has little to do with gender... frankly I'm surprised that men don't have the same problem. Being torn between the gentle, shy kind of girl and the aggressive party animal, I mean.

Damn, I wish there was a way to explain this without falling back on such broad generalizations.

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anti fishstick

ahh, exactly! well put

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bigoldalphamale

i think maybe there is a semantic issue here:

alpha male does not = asshole

alpha male = better suited to mate than beta males

Nazggul

I think there are plenty of guys out there that are a good mix of Alpha Male and genuine Nice Guy. Let’s call em Self Actualized. So you really have 3 types; the Alpha Male who hits on everything that moves and collects as many numbers as he can, has no concern for a woman’s feelings and is in general just rude to anyone he sees as potential competition. The Self Actualized Male. This guy is confident, generally happy with himself, attempts to actually know the women that he is interested in, doesn’t ignore others that are around him just so he can “get to the girl,” etc. Thirdly, there’s that nice guy in the corner who is overshadowed by both and probably doesn’t ever get the chance to talk to the women he is interested in. It’s easy to pick out the “Nice Guy” out of these three so let’s leave him out of it. If a woman wants that she can spot it a mile away and she probably realizes she’ll have to make the effort to reach him.

The real challenge for women is to distinguish between the SAM (Self Actualized Male) and AM (Alpha Male). In most social situations the AM and SAM are indistinguishable (except for the really hard core AM’s, they just make me laugh more often then not.) Indistinguishable unless you are observant enough to see the entire social setting. Pay attention to the little things that guys do, how they treat not only other women, but other men as well. Is he rude or dismissive to other males? If so, he is probably either insecure about himself or simply immature in general, regardless he is goal oriented for that moment and he resorts to basic human instincts to control a situation. Definitely not a SAM.

Contrary to what most women believe, guys are fairly smart. We’ve learned how to play the game to get what we want, to say all the right things at the right time. Women are duped all the time. If you pay attention to the little things you will see more going on there than you thought.

Ok, I’ve rambled enough. Back to work for me.

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bigoldalphamale, maybe in pre seventeenth century Alpha Males (by the purest definition of the term) were best suited to mate. Frankly those skills are no longer required. Maybe Alpha Male isn't the best label, but at the moment, I can't think of a better one.

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Halx

Yeah... big point here.

I am an alpha male. Very domineering, controlling. I know how to be an asshole, but I am also very considerate.

I am also the 'sensitive type' but this only comes out when I am at ease.

So, in other words, there is no big bold black line between the two and every girl will grow out of her insecure phase to the point where she knows what balance she is comfortable with.

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Plan9Senior

It is an art to be a healthy combination of both. Once you have that mastered the world is yours to dominate, my friend.

omega2K4

I'm kinda inbetween the alpha male, and the sensitive male categories. So I dunno what that classifies me as.

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hobo

I am stuck as the sensitive type. I know this and I am making slow progress towards being a balance between the two. The only problem is that while I am the "sensitive guy", I am the intellectual whore (yes, its true, girls use us like that). I realised this recently because girls talk to me about stuff that their boyfriends or other guys won't. In me they get a sensitive guy then they run back to their alpha or self actualized guy.

On the plus side, I'll have an advantage later on because I'll know the sensitive side of women much better due to my time as an intellectual whore.

emphant

The thing is, it's not hard to learn the sensitive side of women. All you need to do is ask a lot of questions and shut your mouth.

I was stuck on the sensitive side too. If you don't want to be an IW, just tell them flat out you don't want to hear it when they start waxing about their boyfriend or something similar.

Steenoob

*raises hand*

Many times I have been left out of the "action" while the AM's and SAM's get the ladies. It gets increasingly frustrating every time it happens and I could go on, but a thread-hijacker I am not.

Point: Nice Guys need GF's too

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skysooner

I used to be the Nice Guy in high school. I was an AM around guys but lacked the confidence to project it in what I considered to be a socially acceptable manner. I definitely lacked confidence. As I got older, I got the confidence to go and now am a pretty good balance between sensitive and AM. It doesn't always happen at the same pace for everyone.

dragon2fire

i think we are gernalizeing a bit much here


no to men are the same not exauctaly any way

Nazggul

All we can do is generalize. From there we work to find more detail. But we certainly can't start out knowing all, so we work from what we can understand toward something more specific.

motdakasha

Men can be equally indecisive (Madonna/Whore Complex).

Also, I just thought I might make note of a study my Anthropology professor brought up in my class. They found that women tend to go for the "Sensitive/Nurturing" type when choosing a lifetime mate and during times that they weren't ovulating/fertile (yeah, yeah smartass you already knew that, but did you know...). However, they found that when they were at their most fertile, they preferred more masculine, agressive men ("Alpha male"). And, they found that there were far more women who gave birth to a child whose father was not the woman's husband than they thought there would be. Most of the husbands in the study who had been cheated on weren't aware that they were raising a child that was biologically not theirs.

I don't think it's that we're always indecisive about what we want. Research tells us that our menstrual cycle influences our preferences in men. It also tells us women tend to dress sexier as they become more fertile and less sexy when they are less fertile. (See: The Human Animal, Desmond Morris)

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feelgood

Well, I read over some of the comments and some of them makes me laugh hard. Basically, they're all sterotypical. I would go through some of those posts that comes to my mind but I know I'm just fighting a battle that can't be won...it's just like trying to convince a die hard relgious person that god doesn't exist (He doesn't though )

You can't do much about the so called "Alpha" male and the "Beta" or senstive male or whatever is between the two type. All you can do is know thyself and know your target.

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hobo

So true. I guess being an AM gives you the advantage of quickly getting into a girl's pants but being the NG (nice guy) gets you the other 4 weeks of the month.

Now there's just the matter of deciding which you want from her and acting appropriately.

Iliftrocks

I must agree with some of the above others. Alphas are just leader types, some of them lead in a very considerate manner, not all of course, they just take charge of situations.

Some jerks are not alphas, they are wannabes man. If, for you, whimps = nice guys then I'd have to say you are wrong there too...

I am neither alpha nor omega, and I am nice sometimes and an SOB others..... Chicks dig me or they don't, it's a matter of preference. I don't take it personal or try to philosophise about it for days on end.

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*Nikki*

*sigh*

The bad boy is all played out if you ask me. The thing about the "bad boy" is that he is just that....a BAD boy. He screws around on you, he won't commit, he is selfish, and more often then not unattainable.

What I want and what I have right now is a nice cross between the alpha male/sensitvie guy. I wouldn't have it any other way.

I refuse to be treated like crap and cheated on by some man who chooses to live his life as if no one else matters.

What kind of women puts up with that??

Rodney

Well, I'm a sensitive guy. I used to have an sensitive girlfriend. Once, she was feeling off for some reasons so I dragged her out of the house somewhere and she felt better. Along the way she bitched and moaned a little bit about our relationship and life in general. So I did a little bitching and moaning -- not directly at her, just sharing feelings -- and suddenly I had "ruined the evening." I don't usually get all alpha, but at that I told her that she was out of line and that sharing is a two-way street and if she couldn't see that she had a long way to go, and I didn't want to hear that sort of thing anymore. At that point she melted all over me and we went home and had great sex (not all that usual in that relationship).

I think that was the day I knew that that particular relationship was doomed. Anybody who emotionally needs Big Daddy to keep her in line isn't the kind of equal partner I'm looking for. Eventually married a woman with a degree in math and a strong and loving personality. We get along great.

bing bing

That post juxtaposed with your signature.

KungFuGuy

yeah- i'm very machiavellian in my machinations and have no problem with going back and forth between alpha/nice guy to get my goals accomplished.

except with girls, then i get stupid. lol

this reminds me of a "lion vs. teddy bear vs. fox" exercise i did once in school. basically here lions would be your Alphas, teddy bears your nice guys, and foxes your people like me.

thed00t

In my experience, women are attracted to men who can just BE THEMSELVES. Go with what you know. That's alpha no matter if you're a nice guy or an asshole. If you can be yourself 100%, you exude the right confidence. Wether you are sensitive, or a harley ride scruff neck.

No one has time for other peoples bullshit.

Cut out the middle man, be yourself.

toxic515

I figure my wife wants a man who can let her be in control when she wants to, and to take control when she doesn't want to be in control, and he should be able to smell that change on the wind.. because she damned well isn't going to tell me.

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Strange Famous

I wouldnt say I was an alpha male or submissive,,, I seem to tend to base my whole persona around my idea of irony, but it doesnt really work.

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BooRadley

Holy shit. An intelligent and realistic poster in the sexuality forum. I am shocked ( not sarcasm )


Desmond Morris is a genious. Remember, it is all biology.

Yes it is.

They know what they want . They want the bad boy. They'll deny it a hundred times over, but they also WANT to deny it. That also is part of the game.


I also find it hilarious that most of the women here have dated bad boys but yet still talk badly about them as if they wouldn't date them again. If they are so bad, then stay the fuck away? You can only put your hand into the fire so long before burning it off...

PS : Anyone who declares themselves an alpha male on the internet most likely is not. Real alpha males don't philsophize about anything, nor do they post on message boards.

Ustwo

When I was a nice guy I rarely got laid.

When I got the confidence and became 'an alpha' I was beating them off with a stick so to speak.

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BooRadley

What does this tell us? Either A) Women better start liking who they say they do or B) live in a world full of assholes. Nice guys are thinning out.

Ustwo

Its about confidence and being self assured rather then being a kiss up. Most women go for confident. I personaly think its a bit of darwinism.

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Rodney

And if you wonder why some women go for confident assholes rather than sensible guys who are less assertive, remember also that most women aren't any smarter than most men. Women operate under different rules, dictated by society and biology (as you do, guys), but they sure aren't any wiser.

Prince

Ain't that the truth. When growing up, I was under the impression that women were generally smarter than men. This was actually not something I deducted myself, but something that was indirectly taught to me. It is also an image that even men re-enforce at times, in an attempt to seem more spontaneous and less bound by rules. Girls were always the ones who were going to college, they got the good grades, they weren't feeding one another worms at the school yard. Then you had the sitcoms etc of the time that focused a lot on the differences between the male and female logic and way of thinking, and focus of thought, and helped spread the idea that men were simple, animal-like and easy to fool. I still know many women of my own age (I'm 26 now) that grew up thinking - and still think - that they can do what they want with men. They'll brag about men that seem infatuated with them, talk down to them and describe them as helpless puppies looking for mommy's attention, and shall receive it only when she will gracefully give it to them.

Now, this is actually an improvement from not long back when a lot of young women were taught to obey the man, and we were sold the male image of a provider, a care-taker, the head of the household. We're still supposed to be the alpha male family dictator and whatnot, but also the soft touch soccer dad. And that would be fine except that I think it is hard for many men to stretch enough between the two to comply with what is expected, especially when what is expected is hard to define.

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BooRadley

You mean by stupid girls weeding themselves out, right? Or "survival of the stupidest"? You remember, there are alot of confident but very unsucessful people out there ( The average "Outlaw Biker" ), and alot of unalphamale, successful people who have sucessfully had children.

I gave up the nice guy routine a long time ago. I got action. I suggest any male who is a "nice guy" do the same.

thespian86

The story of my life. I play football, three times allstar, and I'm lead guitar for a band, Broken down, and all i heard in jr. and high school is that i'm the nicest and sweetest and "I wish i could meet someone like you"

Bitter? JUST A BIT! but i also heard all my life that the excitement that is "badboy" wears off. It's true. Women like me now, but I am not at all more manly or unmanly than any of my friends. It's not as easy to catagorize "bad boy" l "romantic The fact is, alot of people just don't know themselves, or try to meet someones standards. I do but i'm almost always myself, atleast i try to be.

I think i'm the king of semi-relevent rants. Thanks

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BooRadley

Yes, it does wear off... when women either have a kid ( with a bad boy ) or they are 30 and hopelessly single...

Ustwo

Being an alpha male does NOT mean being an asshole.

You can be top dog and still get married.

By the time I figured out women don't want nice and attentive but aloof and self assured, I was dating 3 women at the same time. I married one of them and we have been together now for 13 years, no problems.

You don't have to be a 'bad boy' you just have to be a man.

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