Sleepyjack

first off, i am not sure if this is sexuality or genreal disscussion stuff?

Last night i watched this movie/documentary called Raw Deal. I know that the incident that iot's about was in the past '99 and released in 2001, but it seems it's only become available to rent now?

Anyway, the film is about an incident invoving a frat house at the university of florida and i am probably sure that a lot of Americans have probably already heard about this in the past. Anyway, as part of a party or some intiation thing, the frat house hired some exotic dancers/strippers to perform for them. After all this one of the girls stayed back and had sex and performed sexual acts on some of the guys.
Throughout the night, the guys videotaped the girls and all happenings, including the sex acts with the girl and various guys at the frat house.
Although, the next morning, the girl came out of the frat house, and reported that she had been raped.

heres an actual blurb about the movie, if mine doesn't make sense:

Raw Deal has to be one of the most exposing and controversial documentaries about rape and fraternity life today. Billy Corben's remarkable exposé on the contested rape of 27-year-old Lisa Gier King in Gainesville, Florida, is sure to provoke heated discussions everywhere about rape, women's rights, and male privilege. On Friday, February 26, 1999, Delta Chi frat brothers at the University of Florida held a party at their fraternity house and hired exotic dancer Lisa Gier King to perform. The following morning, a half-naked and distraught King ran from the house, claiming that Michael Yarhaus had raped her. Her most startling allegation was that frat brother Tony Marzullo had videotaped the crime. Two days later, King herself was arrested for filing a false police report after authorities claimed the tape showed "clearly willing and consensual sex." The community was stunned by King's arrest after it was discovered that the videotape showed Marzullo himself repeatedly addressing the camera to gleefully describe that what he was witnessing was a rape. Under pressure from the media and Campus NOW to charge the frat brothers with rape, State Attorney Rod Smith arrogantly responded by making the tape available to the public so people could "make up their own minds." Filmmaker Billy Corben takes Smith's challenge and presents the scandalizing, sexually explicit footage alongside interviews of participants involved with the case to conduct an investigation the police never did. The result is a shocking insight on fraternity life and the politically constructed nature of "the truth."

First off, has anyone else seen the movie or have thoughts about it?

I, myself, was still somewhat undecided about wether you could or could not call what happened consensual or not. Albeit, i hvaen't seen any of the actual home movie shot, only footage on the documentary. UNfortuantely it (consent)wasn't really a black and white thing, in the film there are degrees of ambiguity.

I also know that the process in whcih the crime was investigated was botched and altered by politcal motivation, but this is more about the classficiation of rape/consent and how is it or can it be defined in law?

Can someone say "yes" to sex and then change their mind afterwards, or during the process?

During the film, as well, although i am naive about rape (hence the post) i wouldn've thought there may be more of a struggle or better indication of non-consent. Although, in a lot of cases, rape is mainly about a power/control thing and the guy in the film definitley doing that, altough this can definitley also happen between 2 consenting people.

So unfortuanlety,a fter watching the documentary, other than understanding that politcal motivation fucks everything up, i was still not so clear about what consent or rape is defined as.
I used to mainly think it would be, just a struggle as someone overpowers someone and forcefully has sex with them, but maybe there is more to it and other incidents which should be classified as rape?

The fact that the girl was intoxicated and maybe taken drugs as well does complicate the issue quite a bit.

ok, i have probably written enough fro now, but i am definitley interested in others thoughts about, not only the incident itself, but also on the rape/consent issue and how it's defined, how can we make it more clearly defined etc

thanks

JStrider

ive always heard dont have sex with a girl whose under the influence of anything ever... she can wake up in the morning and remember having sex... and decide you took advantage of her being under the influence by raping her...

and i know there was a case in cali where a girl changed her mind after they had already started and she charged him with rape cuz he didnt stop immedialtly when she started saying no... i dont remember how the case turned out...

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Halx

JS has the right idea. Don't touch drunk girls and stop on a dime as soon as she says 'no.' Otherwise, rape is elligible.

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SparklingDot

Either party has the right to terminate sexual activity at any time. The other person can either respect that and stop, or not stop. The latter should be legally classified as rape. As should taking advantage of another person who is under the influence of any type of drug or alcohol. Consensual means both parties decide to do whatever in a sound state of mind. Or they are both equally sloshed and neither remembers anything.

And remember, if you throw a party with strippers or dancers, get a written contract as to what services are to be performed and possibly a waiver. Cover your bases.

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ratbastid

Yes. And if that "no" isn't respected, it's rape.

Here's a REAL grey area, though: what if that person changes their mind during the process and doesn't say so? For whatever reason they feel too intimidated or pressured to say they're having second thoughts? Is THAT rape?

No, I expect that IS the issue. A person under the influcence is not legally capable of giving consent. Sex with an inebriated partner is by definition non-consensual under the law.

This movie sounds pretty exploitative too, to come back to the topic at hand. It plays right into the hands of the State Attorney releasing the film to the public. There's very little reason anybody should ever want to watch that video apart from the tittiliation value of it. Making it public is just sleazy. "The people can make up their own minds" indeed--that guy should be disbarred.

rogue49

I agree with the posters above.

Basically, in the end, protect yourself.
Don't take the chance.

And if she can't make up her mind, walk the fuck away.
It's not worth it.

CandleInTheDark

It is rape, but you can't charge the rapist. If a person consents, and changes their mind later on during the act, without obviously removing their consent (either physicaly or verbaly), then how is their partner supposed to know that their partner is no longer consenting?

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feelgood

If the person fucking says STOP or NO then you fuckin better stop. If that same person doesn't like it and doesn't say anything or show signs of it, then you're out trouble b/c you sure hell can't fukin read the other person's mind.

Plain and simple as that.

However, when it comes to situations where it's not being videotaped, and both people are saying this and that and everything else, that's a whole new story. Period.

There's a saying "The only people that knows the truth, is the one who made it true"

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ask kobe, he'd know

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shakran

I disagree. Rape is forcing sex on someone w/o their consent. If they consent to sex, and you have sex with them, then it's not w/o their consent. If they decide it's not something they wanna be doing, that's fine, but they have to TELL you that, otherwise, you still have their consent. People aren't mind readers. I object to calling it rape whether you get the "rapist" in legal trouble or not.

Seaver

In California it is legally classified as rape if at any time the woman decides she didnt want to "consent"....
Sounds ok, but the legal definition makes it so that even if the woman concented at the time... then the next mourning decides it was a mistake it was rape.


California needs to change this law. EVERYONE has to agree that this is complete BS. I agree that a woman/man CAN change their mind in the middle of the act, and that the partner HAS to comply, but deciding after the fact it was a mistake is BS.

If one is intoxicated according to US law no contract can be held valid legally. But in defense of the partner there is no way for him to know how she will act in the mourning.


I am coming to the defense of these alcohol-predators, yes. Mind you I have never, nor ever plan to, done anything sexual with a woman who was under any type of influence... its just nothing I want to do (where's the thrill of the chase?). But if a woman does not say NO and it was not forced it's not rape, its a mistake.

motdakasha

Even if you allowed someone to have sex with you while drunk, it's not a legitimate, legal consent. It's the same with statutory rape.

I don't think it's a stupid law.

If you're worried she might later regret having sex with you (i.e. a mistake), why do it? Legally it's always illegal, so you'd think that if you were going to do it, you'd do it with a woman you know you can trust not to regret it later and pursue you in court.

Seaver, do you see the hypocrisy in saying a woman can change her mind in the middle of the act but not afterward? Or, the hypocrisy in saying a drunk person cannot get a tattoo across their forehead that says, "I'm a dumbass," because they might later regret it, but it's okay for someone else to potentially take advantage of their drunken state and if they regret it it's bullshit?

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shakran

there's no hypocracy there. If a woman says "no" halfway through sex, the man pulls out. If a woman says "no" 3 hours after sex is over, what the hell is the man supposed to do about it?

And according to the california law, the woman can be stone cold sober, in full control of herself, consent to sex, then decide the next day it was a mistake, and the guy has now raped her. That is bullshit. If we want REAL rape cases to be taken seriously, we can't be running around inventing fake definitions of rape.

tritium

She she she she ... women women women ...

What about the men in society? I'm not talking about the swaggering macho football player types. I'm talking about the quiet, shy guy that is highly prone to suggestion...

I'm talking about the guy that wakes up in the morning with blood in his underwear ....
I'm talking about the guy that has to go to a doctor for reconstructive surgery...
I'm talking about the guy that absolutely will not, under any cirumstances, discuss his reality because of the blasted stigma associated with it ...

As laws exist in the state of Georgia, under NO circumstances can a man be raped. The absolute worst that can happen to a man is sexual molestation by another...

That's a load of garbage in my opinion.

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tritium

Amen, brother. Amen.

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hilbert25

As far as I can tell, it will always be rape and prosecutable against the man if EITHER party is drunk, at least that is what they tell us at school in California. If the girl is drunk, she didn't say yes, if the guy is drunk, he couldn't have been in a state to understand the lack of consent. Also according to rape laws here, if a woman regrets it the next morning it is still rape. If she ever at any point regrets it, she has a case to make it rape. A guy on the other hand is SOL.

It's rape if a wife doesn't want sex but a husband forces her, even if it's not through physical force.

It's rape if the girl vocally consents, doesn't regret it, but lies about her age and the parents want to prosecute, even if they met in a bar or nightclub with a minimum age above 18, even if the guy is under 18.

Date rape is a huge problem, but laws have been created that themselves can be problems.

One solution that schools propose to their students (albeit an unrealistic one) is to actually have a written contract saying exactly how far either party will go, in a sort of checklist.

The real solution is to make sure you know what you're doing before you do it. Know who you're doing it with, and make damn sure you know what their intentions are before you do it.

RAGEAngel9

What I always wondered was:
If, assuming m/f sex, both parties are drunk and during the act both consent, in the morning and either regrets the act can they call rape?
I've heard yes. However, if so can't the other just claim rape back?

Seaver

I dont know where you went with this. Yes, any idiot while drunk can get a retarded tatoo and regret it later.

The difference is that the person can not go back the next day and COMPLETELY RUIN the tatoo artist's life after deciding it was a bad idea.

As I said, having drunken sex 95% of the time will end up being a mistake. But you have to realize unless he/she was drugged she FULLY CONCENTED to her inebreation. Thus if she is too drunk to realize she's having sex with a gargoyle it is her mistake, not his (unless she was unconcious which is rape).

RAGEAngel9

SLight side note.
In many state or just do to tattoo artist integrity, people who are drunk or otherwise not in complete control or their facilities cannot be tattooed.

pocon1

Here is the deal, no one forced you to open your mouth and pour down a bunch of alcohol. You get drunk, and people have sex with you, it is your fault. The law may say differently, but this is reality. Your drinking put yourself in a situation that you chose (by drinking) to be in. You regret it? Don't get drunk again. You may think this sounds harsh, but there are a lot of stupid people out there, and they make life miserable for other people. Take care of your own stupid self and don't get drunk in situations were someone may take advantage of you. This does not count if a woman is drugged with roofies or some other date rape drug.

analog

If a person is in control, sober, consenting, of age, and all systems are go- they have sex with full consent for the entire duration of the sex, wake up the next morning, and she "regrets" having had sex with him, <b>that</b> is total bullshit.

There is no way on earth you can tell me there is any kind of case for rape simply because she changed her mind AFTER the act had been completed. No contract works that way. You don't enter into a contract, fulfill it, and then after you've finished say, "i wanted to at the time, but now i've changed my mind". That's bullshit.

You don't go to a restaurant, eat a meal, and then refuse to pay because you changed your mind that you were hungry anymore.

You don't go to a movie, watch it, and then leave the theater and the next day go and ask for your money back because now that you've seen the movie, you've decided you regret it, even though you wanted to see it.

And you know what? You can't get off for murder because you wake up the next morning and regret stabbing a family of 5 to death in their sleep.

You did it, you wanted to do it at the time, you were in full control. You can't just take it back afterwards.

If both people are drunk, the law will see to it that the male is responsible. The male is always at fault in a potential rape case, regardless of circumstance.

Dilbert1234567

gaw what a touchy post for my 750th post, oh well


its a real touchy subject, as i understand it, either partisipant can call off the act at any point, and if the other does not stop, then it can be considerd rape.

and as analog said, the male seems to always be at fault.

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Crazy/Beautiful

That's really fucked up and sad man!

Crazy/Beautiful

Okay yeah this hits close to home for me. How does this sound. I willing go ahead and have sex with somebody because they won't stop pressuring me about it and making me feel like I owe it to them? What about people that have taken advantage of the fact that some people are too young to know better, mentally unstable, under the influence etc. I have never pressed charges against anyone but I do feel like I've been raped. I get scared of guys and I hate being in public by myself and having people look at me. I get physically ill at the thought of what has happened to me. I don't trust men and would seriously hurt any of these people if I ever saw them again. But they are free to wander around, and I get to feel the after effects forever. Is that fair? If a girl feels like she has been raped, she has. Many people abuse the judicial system with false charges. But some rape victims don't do anything but have to live with it the rest of their lives.

motdakasha

It's illegal to tattoo someone that's intoxicated. The tattooed dumbass can sue the tattoo artist and or the company they work for and completely destroy the artist's career or make them totally bankrupt. They can ruin the artist's life if they decided the tattoo was a bad idea.

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shakran

That's not their fault. If you keep saying no, then they won't have sex with you - or if they do then it's rape. If you say yes, then NO MATTER WHAT THE REASON (barring "have sex with me or I'll kill your loved ones" types of tactics) it's not rape.

Quote:

What about people that have taken advantage of the fact that some people are too young to know better, mentally unstable, under the influence etc.

Too young: That's called statutory rape. It's already covered. Mentally unstable: See statutory rape. Under the influence: See statutory rape. We're talking about 2 consenting adults of legal age who are both sober here.

Quote:

I have never pressed charges against anyone but I do feel like I've been raped. I get scared of guys and I hate being in public by myself and having people look at me. I get physically ill at the thought of what has happened to me. I don't trust men and would seriously hurt any of these people if I ever saw them again. But they are free to wander around, and I get to feel the after effects forever. Is that fair? If a girl feels like she has been raped, she has.

I'm sorry for how you feel, but that's simply not the case. If a girl has had sex FORCED ON HER then she's been raped. If she CONSENTS to the sex, then she has not been raped, whether she regrets it later or not. If you agreed to the sex, then the man who had sex with you cannot be held responsible for raping you. If you said no and he had sex with you anyway, then yes he did rape you but that incident does not apply to the discussion at hand.

motdakasha

False assumption. Maybe you would stop, but you can't speak for the entire human race.

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shakran

read the rest: "or if they do then it's rape"

In other words, if you say no and they have sex with you anyway, it's rape. If you don't say no and you allow them to have sex with you, then it's NOT rape.

Sparhawk

Crazy/Beautiful,

I am completely not the best person to be saying this, maybe lurkette might have better words, but please get some help for your self esteem. There is absolutely ZERO reason you should feel pressured into sex. Sex is a loving, beautiful thing, and should be something enjoyed, not shunned. Neither should be contact with the opposite sex. Please find a trusted friend, relative, or clergyperson to talk with about this. If you are in college, one of the counselors on campus can help you out. PLEASE don't wait, you DESERVE BETTER.

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juanvaldes

Simple if they say "No" or "Stop". It's over.

The ONLY time to not stop is if before hand you worked out some code word and if they say THAT then you STOP.

cheerios

SparHawk's got it right. this difference between a person feeling violated, and legally being raped. Just because what Crazy/Beautiful is describing probably wouldn't get anyone put in jail, doesn't mean she's any less effected for it. C/B: I'd suggest talking to someone (a pro, preferably) about your feelings... they can help you work through some of them, hopefully.

Sleepyjack

Does silence (or not saying anything) imply consent then?

I've done a bit of contract law, in a managment unit, and silence or not saying otherwise does not imply that you accept the contract?
unless contract law differs in different countries?

shakran

how do you mean? Do you mean is it rape if the guy says "do you want to have sex," the girl is mute, and the guy starts having sex with her?

Well, even there it depends. If the girl stays quiet, but rips her clothes off and starts gyrating on the guy then no, I kinda don't think that's rape. If the guy rips her clothes off and starts having sex with her, then it's very likely rape.

On the other hand, why the hell is the girl staying silent? say "no."

JadziaDax

Let me give you people a little story, and you tell me...

Our characters: Michelle and Bob. Bob is a young, good looking man. Michelle is just a couple of years younger than Bob.

Michelle and Bob know each other for some time, live in the same community, have many of the same friends. They start talking one day. Michelle invites Bob over to spend more time together, but away from their friends (you know how it can be around friends).

So, here they are alone. Bob starts kissing Michelle. The kissing is nice. Kissing is ok. Kissing leads to some fondlings. He's touching her breasts under her shirt... he lifts her shirt... She's getting a bit nervous at this point. He starts to put his hands down her pants, she pulls his hands away. The kissing continues.

They go from a sitting up position to lying down... still kissing. Bob's on top of Michelle at this point. But the kissing is nice. Bob then pulls down her pants (she's wearing sweatpants so it's not so difficult to do). He uses his body weight to keep her from stopping him... He holds her hands above her head with one hand, pulls his own pants down with the other... and you can guess the rest...

Oh, when she tried to scream, he shoved a pillow over her face.

Not rape? She asked for it? She deserved it? That's what some of you would say.

Yes, there was dialog through these acts, she told him "No" as he put his hand down her pants the first time. She told him "No" as he pulled down her pants. She screamed "No" as he violated her. She was a virgin.

Some people would think that this isn't rape because she "egged him on". She's had to live with this her entire life. She didn't want to be near men. There are even times now (this is many years later) that when she is with a man, these images come back to haunt her and she'll start to cry or scream... even though she's with someone she loves and wants to be with. No amount of therapy in the world can cure that. Those images are in her head forever.

Rape is sometimes not so black and white. The shades of gray is where people get confused... was it really rape? was she asking for it? etc. If a woman truly feels that she's been violated, if something's been done that she did not want, if it was not consentual, then yes, I would consider that to be rape.

Let me close with a few definitions for you so you can see for yourself what the clinical definition of rape is and then make your own decisions:

Main Entry: rape
Function: noun
Date: 14th century
1 : an act or instance of robbing or despoiling or carrying away a person by force
2 a : sexual intercourse with a woman by a man without her consent and chiefly by force or deception; b : unlawful sexual intercourse by force or threat other than by a man with a woman
3 : an outrageous violation

Main Entry: date rape
Function: noun
Date: circa 1983
: rape committed by someone known to the victim

Main Entry: gang rape
Function: noun
Date: 1968
: rape of one person by several attackers in succession

Main Entry: statutory rape
Function: noun
Date: 1898
: sexual intercourse with a person who is below the statutory age of consent

(Thank you Merriam Webster 10th edition)

RAGEAngel9

JadziaDax
You just went from what seemed like a decent example with a point to a Lifetime movie plotline.
A pillow?
Screaming out?(which wasn't actually in your little story)

Look most of us realize that the above examples are near sure signs of rape. This is of coruse bearing "unique" sexaul fantasies but we'll ignore that for now. The pushing the hand away means would except for how many things can that mean?
1. Stop now
2. Stop that specific action
3. It hurts try doing it this way
4. I'm a girl and this is the stupid game I have to play with boys as not to feel like a tramp (Yes this happens, not to everyone so it's 4th)

Christ I don't even know where my point went.

I guess I'm just pissed that so much of this crap could go away if both men and women (men and women, guess that means all people) would stop being assholes in regards to life and sex.

JadziaDax

Ah, so you are diminishing Michelle's pain to a "lifetime movie plotline"? (sorry, this was real and not from some stupid fucking made-for-TV movie.) And saying that "stop" doesn't really mean "stop"?

I think if someone keeps trying to push you away, regardless of what you are doing, it means "Stop right there." Regardless of whether it means "Stop permanently" or "Stop for a little while", that magic word "STOP" is still there. You come across an octagonal sign with a red background and big white letters S T O P, does it mean "Well, maybe I'm just playing with you, and I don't really mean it"? Tell that to the cop as he writes you a ticket.

Look, say what you will about "I'm a girl and this is the stupid game I have to play" shit. They do that for a reason. It's not so they don't feel like a tramp, it's because they are confused and sometimes (let me emphasize that...) SOMETIMES are being pressured into that situation and made to believe that the boy won't like her anymore if she doesn't. Some women are so co-dependent that they need someone to pay attention to them in anyway possible. But if they say or gesture "STOP" or "NO", it means just that. It's not a game.

And if "Michelle" is an asshole for what happened... let me stop right there...

Now, sorry for the hijacking.
back to the original point...

Thoughts about Ms. King and what happened... Having not seen the movie, and not remembering the specific incident from the news, I can only go by what has been said here. Was she intoxicated? Were they offering her money? Do people just assume she'll perform sexual acts because she's an exotic dancer? (Exotic dancer does not equal prostitute.) I can't pass any judgement about the situation without knowing much more, and even then it would be difficult.

It's like any situation. You don't know what really went on unless you were there, and even then there are different sides to the story.

shakran

the main issue in this thread, however, is not about date rape. It's about whether a woman, having fully and willingly consented to sex, can at a later time decide she wishes she hadn't had sex, and accuse the man of rape.

This has happened before and it nearly universally has ruined the man's life.

The problem with this tactic is that it trivializes the real rape cases. Rape victims have a tough enough time, with some idiots thinking they egged the rapist on by wearing a short skirt, etc. They have to deal with a potential media frenzy, having their name plastered across every newscast and newspaper. They have to deal with the humiliation at having been violated. Why should they have to deal with people thinking "yeah, but did she want it then and is only crying rape because she regrets it now?"

Women who pull crap like this are hurting all the REAL rape victims. To be blunt, it's an asshole stunt to pull, and it frankly disgusts me.

Sleepyjack

What i meant by the silence thing is not really literally, moreso by other implict actions which can say otherwise? ie not explcitly saying in a black and white fashion yes or no.
So, if she doesn't explicity say no, does that mean she has consented to sex? i mean, i don't really thinkk it does, although it's quite a delicate subject?

Jadzia covered it a bit, by talking about how the girl stopped him from getting into her pants? I guess it does actualy mean stop as she pointed out, although where there is nothing clear, some people can take interpretation differently. Especailly when it's a guy looking and wanting sex.

So as shakran pointed out as well, it's also about that, but i was mainly wanting to know about some people don't explicitly say no and try to imply it by other means, which may be rather subtle?

some people can interpret gestures differently. I know that stopping hands from doing things is a clear indication, but other ways may be less direct?

This was sorta evident in the movie? in some instances, she didn't want to be penetrated by the guy, which was evident, but then later on she seemed ok with it? Also after getting away from the main person who was "scaring" her, she then performed other sexual acts on another guy? when she could've left if she was "that" uncomfortable?
Although there where definitley instances of what could maybe said as rape or forced sex, she was at other times, rather compliant? I would've thought she may make her intentios toge t out of there more clear, cause the force used wasn't so excessive, such that she couldn't get away at all?

oh well, lots of grey areas and it does change from story to story and case to case.

chavos

not to mention it is quite possible to have a man forced in to hetero sex. almost never gets reported, but its a reality.

jazdia is right on with the example-many men would not regard the request to stop as binding if sexual activity had already commenced. just the other day i spoke with a friend from high school who talked about how whenever his GF says she doesn't want sex, he knows to get her more vodka. i felt physically ill hearing that...

Crazy/Beautiful

I know where your coming from. My dad was wrongfully accused of rape when he was a teacher. He had his life ruined and his ability to teach revoked even though he was found innocent. Some stupid girl wanted attention, and went about the worst way to get it.

In some states rape victims are protected under a clause where their name or picture can't be published or mentioned in the media, which I think is a good thing. People shouldn't judge others until the court has solved this issue.

People misuse the courts all the time and belittle actual victims' struggle.