dtheriault

you need to settle down just a little. i know not everyone is a smart and well informed as you are so just give us little people with our small minds a chance.

my wife and i debated this for 8 months. we both went back and forth. we went to websites, read books, articles, talked to every friend we had who had a boy. i have 2 friends who are circumsized who didn't do it to their boys.

here's what it came down to.

I had a good friend of mine whose boy had a problem with his foreskin at 3 and had to have a circumcision: try telling a 3 year old to not touch his penis at 3. I read about this a few more times and it was just barely enought to tilt the wagon.

they used a topical pain killer, allowed me to hold my son's hand. (i promised i wouldn't look so i wouldn't pass out)

i don't think any of the sad feelings i have in my life are left over feelings of anger at my parents for mutilating me.

the study about sexual pleasure is old and has been disproven. seriously. let's have a poll all guys who are circumcized who have a problem enjoying sex. anyone having a hard time getting aroused? didn't think so. women... do you wish your man was more sensitive and finished even quicker. hmmmm

i really understand your point and your passion about this subject. i tell everyone that it's a hard decision and that they need to do their own research and come to a conclusion they'll be comfortable with.

if the original poster is considering this for their son then good luck and i hope your child is born healthy and well. it's was the greatest moment in my life.

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jimk

right on.

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tisonlyi

Nice choice.

You discussed and read widely, good.

I don't know what you read, but I imagine all the books based on facts, not old wives tales, social pressures and ridiculous scaremongering, leant quite heavily in the direction of leaving well alone.

flying in the face of everything else, at least every other piece of objective info i've ever read on the subject, you choose to blow one case your hear about, 2nd hand, totally out of proportion and so choose to go with the post natal mutilation, rather than letting well alone and, oh i don't know, perhaps properly washing (which would involve directly touching) the penis of your son.

Your son might, just might, get meningitis. Better rip out his spinal column and drain the fluids that bathe his brain, eh?

Oh, that's not palatable?

he will get nappy rash, which is uncomfortable, so the skin on his arse should be removed, eh?

He stands a good chance of breaking a bone while he's under ten years of age, best make him a quadriplegic, that'll sort those tiresome troubles of worrying what little scrapes your child might get into...

It's mutilation. Plain and simple. You're disfiguring your child on the OFFCHANCE that, most likely through prudishly shying away from pulling the foreskin of your child back and washing him properly, you MIGHT have to go through some surgery or other with him.

Heaven forbid.

Jesus man, do you know what state a foreskin has to get into before it's necessary to cut it off?

Just think about it.

How diseased, how filthy, how rank, how progressed before medical presentation does a piece of flesh have to get such that the only recourse is amputation?

Not antisceptic creams? no pills? no nurse taking your son into a corner and carefully cleaning and dressing the affected area, followed by a jab and an appointment to come back in 2 days?

No no, straight to amuptation.

Pretty, pretty damn bad.

I find it incredibly hard to believe that save the most extremely remote, chance, freak happening that a properly cared for child could ever find itself in that situation.

I'm sorry, I'm european. Pretty much all of us over here are uncut, and most of my friends like to talk about the disasters they have down there after a few pints, lets face it, we all have one or two during our lives. Most entertaining anecdotes over a spot of luncheon.

The only person i know who has been medically ordered into circumcision is my own father. I have to inform you, the state he got his penis into was, well, absolutely hideous. Beyond the comprehension of a standard human male as to how he could let it degenerate to such a state...

I read around this issue when, living in a foreign land where nudity was perfectly acceptable in certain places, an american associate of mine noted with a look of disgust that:

"You guys must be stinkin down there, goddamn freakish."

Followed by an arguement and a long running dispute - where he eventually had to throw away long and dearly held beliefs of self image and oh, i dunno... bizarre ideas of superiority through reduction, etc, etc...

In reading around, I couldn't believe the ridiculous arguements put forward in favour of what is, in all honesty and medical fact, nothing more than a barbaric status quo.

A throwback to less cleanly times, perhaps.

Nothing More.

Oh, and on the sexual sensation front, i wasn't trying to say that you cut chaps don't feel anything. Of course you do. What I was saying is that I enjoy, in fact a little more than just enjoy, having my foreskin played with, touched and licked. Other intact males i've discussed it with feel similarly.

The feeling of having one's lady put her tongue betwixt foreskin and glans and move around is rather, umm, nice... as is the sucking and nibbling action....

I digress, save to say, those small but wonderful pleasures are now totally denied to your son for his entire stay on planet earth, of which he has but one.

Hey, you're his daddy and must know your gene pool far better than I. What that little lad needs, not knowing what the hell he's going through, and just starting to build his most lasting and most important connections to the outside world, might just be a nice dose of unnecessary, random torture.

That'll definitely shove him off on the right footing.

Well done you.

-------

Yes, I know it's only a small flap of skin, not a lot to get boiling about but the anger comes from the irrational belief that underlies and provokes the mutilation.

Amputation. Mutilation. Disfigurement. Abuse.

A fancy medical name shouldn't hide what it really is.

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"I do not agree that the dog in a manger has the final right to the manger even though he may have lain there for a very long time. I do not admit that right. I do not admit for instance, that a great wrong has been done to the Red Indians of America or the black people of Australia. I do not admit that a wrong has been done to these people by the fact that a stronger race, a higher-grade race, a more worldly wise race to put it that way, has come in and taken their place." - Winston Churchill, 1937 --{ORLY?}--

Tirian

I did absolutely not circumsize my baby boys.

I am cut and wish I weren't. I still remember the trauma I felt when I overheard my parents talking about having my younger brother's done. I was in shock that they had inflicted something like this on me and I had no say. Needless to say this attitude has not changed since that first moment till now.

The whole "why am I different from Dad ?" argument never flys with me either. Kids ask that about all sorts of things. "Why is my skin white/black?", Why am I taller/shorter than the other kids?",etc. I feel comfortable telling my boys all about circumcision when they ask, talking about it seems like no big deal.

motdakasha

Since I don't want kids, I haven't really thought about this. But if I were to have a kid, I think I would leave it be. I'd rather give the kid a choice in the matter instead of circumsize him based on my personal preferences.

I think some of you people are overreacting to other people's decisions. Everyone's entitled to their own opinion, even if it is less educated in your eyes. No opinion is right or wrong or better than someone else's.

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tisonlyi

Yes.

Each individual is entitled to their own decisions and choices.

Are we not individuals from the moment we're brought into this world?

__________________
"I do not agree that the dog in a manger has the final right to the manger even though he may have lain there for a very long time. I do not admit that right. I do not admit for instance, that a great wrong has been done to the Red Indians of America or the black people of Australia. I do not admit that a wrong has been done to these people by the fact that a stronger race, a higher-grade race, a more worldly wise race to put it that way, has come in and taken their place." - Winston Churchill, 1937 --{ORLY?}--

Halx

tisonlyi, a point well taken, a very passionate one at that, but i feel you need to leave other people to their own decisions. You may argue with that very same passion, but perhaps do it so your words are a little less pointed in the direction of any one in particular.

dtheriault, classy response, you stated your case excellently.

I'll add my bit once again: Bathing your kid properly is a big deal. Do this and you'll probably reduce your kid's chances of infection by about 99%, when his chances are all ready statistically low.

When you go on a rollercoaster, you dont amputate your arms and legs just because they might fly outside the cart and get messed up. When you're born, you shouldn't get part of your HOLIEST OF HOLIES amputated just because it might get messed up on this rollercoaster of life. As with the real rollercoaster, you only get messed up if you're not responsible. Then, there's the small, tiny chance that the whole thing flies off the tracks, but why worry? Shit like that can't be planned for or prevented.

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tisonlyi

Fair enough Mr Halx, chief.

The word used to describe me by people who only met me in the flesh recently was 'intense'.

My new lady said it is absolutely spot on.

I should do more meditation.

__________________
"I do not agree that the dog in a manger has the final right to the manger even though he may have lain there for a very long time. I do not admit that right. I do not admit for instance, that a great wrong has been done to the Red Indians of America or the black people of Australia. I do not admit that a wrong has been done to these people by the fact that a stronger race, a higher-grade race, a more worldly wise race to put it that way, has come in and taken their place." - Winston Churchill, 1937 --{ORLY?}--

JBX

My wife and I had been bantering this issue back and forth. Taking the second question first. I am. Now, I was never asked if I wanted this procedure but it's all I know. I do not know what I'm missing sexually and I have had unnecesary surgery with out consent. I should of had the opportunity as an adult to decide. The first question is a big no. However, if my wife and I ever have a son I'm sure it will be a hot debate. I will have her read this fourum so she can see real people react to this issue. With out a religous (can't change their minds and their sons will forever be subject to this) or documented medical reason this procedure should be as outlawed as female circumcision. The discussion here has only hardened my resolve.

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Lebell

Yes and yes.

And guess what?

I can happily live with both of those answers

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"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." – C. S. Lewis

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dimbulb

No and no.
As mentioned, if it is mainly for reasons of health, you don't need to be circumcised to prevent infection. How many seconds does it take to pull back the skin, and rinse it in the shower?

You just have to educate and bathe your kids properly. When i was a kid, my dad made sure i cleaned behind the skin, and checked (like at the public showers at the swimming pool) etc...

And another GOOD reason to clean well now. I don't get a BJ unless its clean. so yes, i make sure its CLEAN!!!! good incentive hurh...

Thraeryn

My parents didn't have me baptized, didn't have me forcibly confirmed in the church. They wanted me to have that decision.

It bugs me that they didn't give me the same choice about my penis. I can decide what's best for my spirit, but not for my body?

I love my parents more than anything in the world. Anything. This makes a little part of me not like them.

djtonyg

1. It's up to my son when he's older (only 10 months).
2. My wife and I love it the way it is. No surgery here!!!

tec-9-7

I'm curious if you'd be making the same statement if we were discussing female pharonic circumcision. Do you really believe that every opinion is equally valid?

motdakasha

If you evaluated the opinions of these cultures by their own standards, what they are doing is perfectly valid. While I personally disagree with female circumcision, I don't feel I should force them to believe what I do. I hope that one day soon they change their views on this through education about hygiene and such. I don't think shoving my opinion down their throat is at all productive in any way.

(FGM info. for those curious about it)
http://www.religioustolerance.org/fem_cirm.htm


So my answer to that remains yes.

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blackdas

nothing left to say...tisonlyi said it all.

chains

1) Yes
2) Yes

siryn

I found this thread interesting, so I asked my bf what he thought...
His exact words - "Is it free?"
tehe

MSD

I'd chop off one of my toes before I'd allow a child of my to be circumcized, and a big yes on undoing it for me.

I've actually wondered if I could file a malpractice suit over it. Not only do I think it's completely unnecessary, getting really hard gets painful after a few minutes because there just isn't enough skin there.

As for the cosmetic aspect, if I were to have it surgically restored, my estimate is that I would gain about 1.5-2 inches, not to mention that it looks and feels ridiculous to have my skin tenting out around the base. There are also visible marks from it. It's not a huge problem, but I'd rather not have a big brown ring around my penis.

splck

I'm cut and I would never get my boy cut. I'm pissed at my parents for removing part of me.

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nice line eh?

BigDonkey2

1) Yes
2) Yes

tisonlyi

On the female circumcision point.

Religious tolerance?

I'm sorry, how many outdated, idiotic, downright stupid positions in society have been defended as being either 'an essential part of the fabric of our society' or 'our birthright and sacred duty, handed to us by God, as X book/prophet said'.

Tosh.

YOU can have any opinion YOU like, so long as you can logically justify it (IMHO) AND IT CAUSES NO SERIOUS HARM TO OTHERS.

Female circumcision is beyond pretty much any other religious/social status quo in terms of barbarity. I can't believe anyone would say that people should be allowed their own views on this.

Hey, I think stupid people should be executed. I think the excessively egotistical should be chemically castrated and sent to special prisons for reprogramming. Both sets of people poison the lives of those of us who are the next step in evolution, get rid of them.

Palatable? Mais non.

Should people tolerate this view? Even if i say an invisible lever pulling chap in the sky with a white beard and booming voice told me that this is the way to go? Mais fucking non.

Sometimes, in fact not even sometimes, everytime, people in the first world have the moral responsibility to stamp out the barbarism of other cultures.

If a lady hits puberty and decides they'd like their newly discovered and rather pleasurable clitoris to be crudely ripped from their anatomical make-up, then fine. they can, kinda, make that 'choice'. Past a certain point and age.

A baby certainly cannot.

__________________
"I do not agree that the dog in a manger has the final right to the manger even though he may have lain there for a very long time. I do not admit that right. I do not admit for instance, that a great wrong has been done to the Red Indians of America or the black people of Australia. I do not admit that a wrong has been done to these people by the fact that a stronger race, a higher-grade race, a more worldly wise race to put it that way, has come in and taken their place." - Winston Churchill, 1937 --{ORLY?}--

jba

1) No
2) No

You don't cut off body parts that get dirty or even infected. You clean them and keep them clean from then on.

Do you pull a tooth when you get caries? Do you you remove your child's teeth in order to prevent caries ?

thebiz

I'm cut, and i like it cut. I don't think i'm missing out on some big amazing secret not having a foreskin. In fact, i wouldn't have it any other way. So yeah, I'd have my son done.

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Thebiz. Hes so hot right now. Thebiz.

tisonlyi

thebiz.

"I don't know what i'm missing out on, but if it's good enough for me, then it's good enough for me to mutilate the one thing i should be protecting with every fiber of my being."

nice.

__________________
"I do not agree that the dog in a manger has the final right to the manger even though he may have lain there for a very long time. I do not admit that right. I do not admit for instance, that a great wrong has been done to the Red Indians of America or the black people of Australia. I do not admit that a wrong has been done to these people by the fact that a stronger race, a higher-grade race, a more worldly wise race to put it that way, has come in and taken their place." - Winston Churchill, 1937 --{ORLY?}--

motdakasha

1. FGM is not performed for religious reasons.
2. My opinion is that other opinions are as valid as mine no matter how much I disagree with them. If that's how you feel, then fine, but I disagree. I think your opinion is ethnocentric. Does that make your opinion wrong? No, because it's your opinion. I'm holding to mine, and you're free to do the same.
3. FGM is performed as late as 15 years of age in some areas. So some do have a "choice," but if they don't get it their society often looks down upon them. FGM is performed because of social/cultural beliefs/pressures.
"The age at which a girl is subjected to this ranges from seven days old to young adulthood._ Most commonly, it is performed between 2 and 15 years of age."
http://www.fgm.org/TheBasics.html

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Just Google It.
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Aaron0000

Its becoming less and less common to get circumciscions. I think it was big for a while there, especially in the 70-80s, where Drs would recommend it. But nowadays, there have been reports that it could cause more problems than it solves, and it has been noted that a decrease in sexual sensitivity is linked to being cut, because the head(glans) of the penis becomes roughened, and losses its natural sensitivity.

Also, for adults who think they want to be cut, its not a good idea, just look up some websites about it, crazy shit can happen. Also, the penis may actually become dulled greatly among other things.

Four Fingers

I'm cut and loving it. I'm also Jewish and loving it. Some would say these two are related.

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marz

I was cut at age 25, and i would do it again. So i have seen both sides. But either way it does'nt bother me. But if it was going to be done i think it should be done while there young. It was very hard not to get an erection at age 25. But really it did'nt hurt that bad. The hardest part was not having sex, and i was married at the time. But my doctor did a really nice job, my skin is'nt tight when im hard or any thing. In other words she left a little. I've seen where some guys have big scars, i dont have any scars. I think years ago doctors removed to much. But now they do much better. And by the way i did have my son circumsized.

mrandrew2u

I have 2 sons, both cut

I am glad my parents had me cut when I was too young to remember the pain

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Fenster

1. Yes
2. Yes

Midlandmadman

1 Yes ( our son is almost 3 ) and I dont think he hates me cause he is circumsized
2 Yes


You know what kinda cracks me up...... the people that stated that they are angry at their parents because they had them circumsized..... I don't know why but that strikes me as funny. If you were an infant , you dont remember when this happend to you... I cant imagine that you could miss foreskin. I think there is alot more to it then being mad at mom and dad for snippin ya.

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tisonlyi

You've explained your feelings in depth.

There's no need to attack others who don't share them.

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"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." – C. S. Lewis

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splck

The reason I'm disappointed my parents got me cut is they did it for no good reason. We've talked about it as adults and they say they would never do it knowing what they know now. I have a fantastic relationship with my folks so being "mad" at them has nothing to do with it. You're right that it the big scheme it's probably no big deal, but making decisions based on ignorance always drives me nuts.

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nice line eh?

Halx

I think it's a big deal.. you lose part of your penis, the most important part of your body.

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Lebell

The penis is the most important part of your body?

Sorry, Hal, but I'll reserve that distinction for my mind.

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"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." – C. S. Lewis

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tenchi069

1.Yes
2.I'm cut, have been from birth. If i had the choice to make it would be the same as I am right now.

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Halx

The mind.. such a humanistic sentimentality

We're animals.. we reproduce. Can't reproduce without a willy.

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Zeld2.0

I'm not cut and I most likely will not have my son cut should i have a son.

it IS a personal preference for a lot of people but i DO notice that a lot of the people (at least here) say they will get it cut because they are as well

for me thats simply not a good answer - i'd rather let him have a chance to decide himself when he is older rather than cut it after birth and not give him a chance

but thats me and i think its fine being uncut anyways - i don't knwo the exact stats out there but supposedly there are fewer and fewer people in the U.S. getting their sons cut - supposedly getting cut can be the minority in the future but who knows

and i will agree that a lot of the reason the kids get cut is often for no reason other than their father is

i8one2

It so beautiful when cut, I have had the opprtunity to have it both ways, un-circed at birth snipped at 24 and have never looked back, and I was also at a BRIS this week!, CUT IT, CUT IT, I say.

As for the decision, I would dicuss it with galaxygirl, if/when that opportunity were to arise..

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