Poetry

Yesterday on Facebook, I posted a little status message that read:

"Things I Have Observed #62: When a guy you haven't talked to before or at least haven't talked to in the last year messages you saying, 'Hey, nice pics', he's really saying 'Hey, I wanna stick my dick in you. How about Tuesday?'"

Well, it provoked a very heated debate between several of my friends that lasted all afternoon. So I wrote a note about it. Thought it might be good TFP discussion material, judging that people reacted so strongly to it.

....................................

"Hey, Nice Pics" - An Elaboration

Okay, so to some of you, this will just be another one of my rants that you have read or heard several times over the last few years.

To others, this will sound possibly embittered, an overreaction, or just totally out of character.


This isn't meant to step on toes or insult anyone. This is just a set of observations I have gathered over the last several years, from when I was a teen to now. This is not, as some might think, about looks. It's about socializing, about seduction, about online interactions, and about language.

So that's as much as a disclaimer as you are going to get. If this still pisses you off, which it shouldn't, then I'd wonder how well we really know each other, and how much we have in common with our social expectations and ideas of respect.

When I posted my status yesterday, it received significantly more responses than I expected it to. I wasn't trying to make some crazy, ephiphanic statement, I was simply observing something that has become a simple truth of many women's online interactions.

If you're a guy who does engage in online attempts at flirtation that lead to eventual boneage, you probably haven't been exposed to this, and you likely don't think that it is that much of an issue. It's simple flirting, right? And girls should be appreciative of the attention they get as a compliment-- they aren't obligated to respond, after all.

But when a girl receives several of these messages a day... all year long, it tends to grate.

And, no, it's not a "I know, I know, I'm pretty, stop telling me, I've got it, this is getting annoying", it's a "wow, I'm being objectified. These men think so little of me that they can't even bother to attempt to disguise their intent. They think it's charming, that they will have some success, that I'm stupid enough or desperate enough to positively respond to their lackluster attempts at online flirtation."

When you've got a Facebook profile up with open access and it shows your music, movies, television interests, as well as pictures of you doing... volunteer work, pottery spinning, riding an elephant, sailing, playing softball, whatever, and you get a one line message saying "Hey, nice pics", it's some guy invalidating you.

No, it's not intentional. No, it isn't malicious.

It's a guy who is too lazy or stupid to actually send you something. They look through your pics and go "nice tits/ass/face" and then they send a shitty one-liner hoping you'll respond.

If they were interested in more than sex, in actually getting to know you, they'd mention something else. Something in your dozens of pictures that could actually start a conversation.

But, no, they're focused on your pictures because they don't care about you as a person, and they aren't internetly-savvy enough to realize how much of a faux-pas "hey, nice pics" is.

Most men don't walk up to a girl and say "hey, nice face" or "hey, nice ass" or even "hey, you're pretty". Most. Sure, some will go up and say, "Hey, I'm John, and I just wanted to tell you that you're really pretty" or something cheesy along the lines of "Hey, I'm John, I don't mean to interrupt, but I'd never forgive myself if I didn't stop to tell you have gorgeous you are."

There's a level of socialzation expected. There's a level of politeness, of standards, that you're supposed to engage in. Just because this is text does not mean it's time to drop all social norms and go for the ass.

Moving on from that train of thought, as I could go on for three or four pages about it.

The general structure of the message:

Mosttimes, it's a "hey, nice pics". Nothing else.

This means that they have nothing else to say, that they've taken their time to write those three words, occasionally included the needed comma, and they've hit send. Nothing else matters, you aren't worth the energy of more. If they don't hear back from you, they won't care, because they've sent this to twenty other women and, eventually, one will respond. It's twenty minutes for twenty women. It costs nothing.

Sometimes it's a "hey, nice pics. I see you like Band X".

This is a prioritizing in language. It's a short message, next to no effort. And it's listed in level of importance to the writer. Hi. You're hot. Oh, and this other thing that I'm tossing on to show minimal effort and hope that you take the bait of talking about your favorite band.

It's not intentional, it's subconscious.

Then there's the ones that are from friends.

"Hey, nice pics. You're looking good. I've been bullfighting in Kentucky. It's been a trip, I've made a lot of friends. What have you been up to? We should meet up."

Again, prioritizing. You're hot. I'd like to stick my penis in you. This is what I've been doing that makes me cool or an object of pity that you should nestle against your soft bosom. We should meet up for soft bosom-nestling.

And some people reading this (dear god, you have a lot of free time) will say, "Noooo, it's just a friend, you're reading sex into everything! Guys aren't like that."

Well, sirs and madams, let me demonstrate for you (without copy-and-pasting the several emails I have received this year since becoming single, and even before I was), how these emails pan out.

"Hey, nice pics. You're looking good. I've been bullfighting in Kentucky. It's been a trip, I've made a lot of friends. What have you been up to? We should meet up."

"Aw, thanks. I've been working really hard to get back in shape. It's been tough, but totally worth it. Bull fighting, huh? That's really cool! How'd you get into that? Such a weird activity, I bet you have lots of stories. I've been accepted into grad school, starting in Fall, and I'm moving shortly to be closer to campus. I've also been working on my writing and just finished a script for Hustler, which is really cool."

"Yeah, bullfighting is awesome. I got into it through a friend-- I was originally going to be a rodeo clown, but they thought I'd be better flapping a cape in the wind. Anyhow, let's get together soon."

...do you see what happened? He sent message with information "A" and question "B". I responded to information "A" and gave information "B". He responded with more about "A" and completely ignored "B".

Again, not intentional, not malicious. Just a lack of caring. Because they don't care. Not even enough to comment to say "oh congratulations" or "oh neat". It doesn't enter their transom. It does not show a direct path to embedding their purple-headed warrior into your quivering love-pudding, so it is discarded as unnecessary energy to be spent typing.

This happens to me all the time.

And, no, I'm not looking for it. And, yes, I'll write back to their response about their bullfighting and drop in more about my life, even if it's just an inconsequential joke about something... and it won't be responded to. So around the fourth response where anything I say that isn't about them or sex is ignored, I'll stop writing.

I'm told I should appreciate the attention.

Please explain to me why I should appreciate it when my guy friends, guys I genuinely enjoyed spending time with, when life separated us however many years ago (they moved, I moved, they got a girlfriend, got married, stopped clubbing, whatever), message me not to catch up and see what I've been up to, tell me what they've been up to, but message me solely to hook up and ignore any attempts at friendship.

Is my friendship not worth anything to them? When I put effort forth to find out what the last few years have been like for them and share my own and they ignore it, it certainly doesn't feel like they care or have any interest in me as a person.

Then it makes me question the previous friendship. Why were they friends with me in the past? What was the motive? Friendship is to be discarded because I'm now suddenly, inexplicably, in the category of bangable?

Also to be considered on the level of appreciating their interest/enjoyment of pictures:

If they're sending a halfassed message of "hey, nice pics" then they're generally saying one of two things:

1. The recipient isn't worth more pursuit. You're hot enough for three words, but an actual conversation, fuck no.

2. The sender is socially incompetent, at least online, which isn't a compliment to the receiver. "Hi, I attract men who aren't bright enough to realize that just because we're online doesn't mean you can drop all pretense of politeness."

I receive messages from old guy friends, even old guy friends who I used to regularly sleep with, and they are genuine caring emails, catching each other up, asking about each other's lives, becoming friends again. And I will go out with them, I will take the time out of my usually insanely busy schedule to have lunch or dinner with them and I will truly enjoy myself.

Because they actually care and it shows.

Thanks for reading, if you got this far. And thanks to my true guy friends who show me that I can not talk to someone for years and still see them and know we care about each other as people, as friends.

__________________
"You know what? Fuck the moon! He controls our water and our women. I've had enough!"

KirStang

Yes, some people have ulterior motives, others are simply casting bait to see if more can come out of just an acquaintance.

I'd be hesitant to conclude that Mr. Nice Pics wants to stick his dick in me right away. Assigning such negative motives to people tends to have ill consequences. Ask me how I know.

__________________

Plan9

"Summon the Kra... uh... Misandry Monster!"

No, seriously... for every scummy dickhead that goes, "Hey, nice pics!" there is a slutty barbatron that posts nothing but party-in-string-bikini pictures.

Just sayin'.

/stereotypes

__________________
Whatever you can carry.

"You should not drink... and bake."

kutulu

I know its shocking, but guys like to get laid and will use whatever tools are at their disposal to get laid. He probably sent out "Hey nice pics" to a bunch of girls, casting a wide net.

KirStang

Eh, after I moved up to Maryland 3 years ago, I messaged an acquaintance, on the genuine hopes of making a friend and having her show me around. She blew me off. Probably thought I wanted to bone the crap out of her.

:Shrug: Take what you will. Stereotypes, assumptions and all that.

__________________

Poetry

Personally, if I was trying to strike up an acquaintance with somone, I'd mention more than how attractive I thought they were with my first sentence. And then maybe write something about them, about me. Something to indicate deeper interest than physical.

I try not to assign negative motives to people, but when it becomes such a trend, and they all start with "hey, nice pics" or "hey, nice pix", I start pigeon-holing.

This is true.

However, I'm not, nor have I ever been, one of those girls. The closest I come to being sexual in a picture is in the one my profile here. 95% of my female friends do not engage in such party pictures, either. But we all receive the same messages.

Now, if I, or any of them, was posting those type of party pictures and receiving "hey, nice pics" messages, there would not be much to complain about.

Also, posting pictures to one's Facebook is, while with external intent, a solo, internal activity that does not need to be acknowledged by any friends. Sending half-assed messages to people is a social, external event, and therefore more violating, if anything. (Though violating is too strong a word, it's what I've got right now.)

---------- Post added at 04:18 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:17 PM ----------

It's not shocking.

I actually mentioned that in the OP. Casting a wide next. Twenty girls in twenty minutes, costing nothing, etc.

And this wasn't in reference to any particular male, but a collection of experiences over the years, as posted in the OP.

__________________
"You know what? Fuck the moon! He controls our water and our women. I've had enough!"

Lindy

So, hang out somewhere else. You're not married to Facebook.

Facebook is a venue. A wide open and immature venue. When I feel like I'm not getting what I desire from any venue, I'll find another venue. If I don't like being hit on at a bar, I'll go to an art museum instead. Or a church. Or do volunteer work. Or go to the horse races. Whatever.

I'll find a venue that applies some kind of filter to make the inmates of that venue more likely to have some areas of commonality with me. We share a common interest, hobby, or passion. Let's explore that.

I've got big boobs. That naturally makes me a hit target. I've had guys say "Hey, nice tits!" to my face. But thats much more likely at midnight at a club. It's never happened at 10am Sunday at church.

OK, KirStang, I'm interested. How do you know?

Lindy

ASU2003

They might not say it, but they are thinking it. You, nor any other woman, can control the male mind. It has evolved for millions of years to want to have sex.

The current generation may not be as respectful as they were in the 50s, but we will only change if it enables us to have more sex.

kramus

Meh. I'd just see it as an opportunity to hit the ignore button. So you get tired of hitting the ignore button. It's either that or pulling a Lindy (see post #7) and finding a venue with a filtration system that keeps the shallow end of the pool from scumming up.

I agree with you that it is a lazy sperm shooter method adapted to the nascent digital age we are sinking into. Lazy sperm shooters with BS contact lines not an issue with me because I am overtly male in my online presence. I've seen the treatment the overtly female get (my Lady used to get some interesting interactions when we were first seeing each other and she still had active dating site profiles - with no pics at all FWIW). I think of sites like Plenty of Fish, and then think of how some fish just shoot their sperm into the water and hope the random eggs found there get impregnated. Hey, if they occasionally get laid because of it they will keep on keeping on. According to Richard Dawkins it isn't them, it's their genes influencing them, and they are just a vehicle engineered for this behaviour in order to keep the genes floating on down the river of time.

Not sure what sort of debate you'll get with your post. More likely agreement, commiseration, and the occasional return serve from folks like Plan9 who point out that the coin has two sides, the beast has two backs, and it takes two to tango.

/threadjack
BTW 9er - is it condescending on my part to find your bolded headline amusing mostly because of the word "Misandry"? You mention you were trailer trash, and how you lack enough IQ to kickstart a game of pattycake. But I also recall your steady slew of promotions, your honours university degree, your display of well rounded knowledge in many fields . . . maybe you ought to be commenting on Poetry's pics - show her that the tree goes all the way up and that sperm shooters can also parse some pretty sophisticated concepts when they so choose. After all, she used prose in a way that was totally reminiscent of your own
/end threadjack

__________________
And now to disengage the clutch of the forebrain ...
I'm going with this - if you like artwork visit http://markfineart.ca

Plan9

...the fuck? I take great offense to this. I've never claimed to have lived in a trailer. That's just disgusting.

That and I just gave my woman two bouts of double orgasm sex today. Poetry totally can't handle me.

/rockstar

...

Dude, aside from the obvious homo humor (I've outgrown it due to my current job), it's pretty clear that this only works one way.

Check it:

According to the Holy Gospel of Saint Miss Anndrus Von Stereotypika (the not-a-militant-lesbian-but-close disciple of Jesus "Modern Fucking Relationships" Christ), men are only interested in sex (every seven seconds of their life they spend at least thirty [work that math] degrading women in their perverse minds) and will do absolutely anything to get it! Anything! Women are just minding their own business posting innocent Faceyspace pictures of themselves duckfacing it up with their elbows pushed together (for maxxximum cleavage) in a Wicked Weasel bikini during their recent Cancun trip.

They don't deserve to be ogled like meat!

/somebody just punch me in the prostate already

Wait, where was I going with this hot garbage? Is this a rant about men being pigdogs or the woes of being physically attractive and/or having tits?

There are women out there that are under the impression that all male attention is sexual even though they themselves are quite plain inside and out.

__________________
Whatever you can carry.

"You should not drink... and bake."

tenchi069

From what I have observed over the years and also being a guy myself, I have found guys fall into 3 major categories when talking to women.

1. Will do anything to bed the woman.

2. Is socially inept and doesn't know where to start.

3. Wants to genuinely offer a complement with no ulterior motive.

This being said. 99.9% of straight men have a common sub-category that sex and boobs = .

__________________
ERROR- PLBSAK
Problem Lies Between Seat and Keyboard.

Plan9

Really, Tenchi? Really?


Well, since I apparently have to defend my sex from The Obvious here:

For all those that weren't aware, most male/female social interactions...


Now, about your numbers:

1 and 2 are the same creature. Any guy that thinks he can "bed" a woman by commenting on her Facebook pictures is a moron. That tactic doesn't work anywhere except in teenage fantasy (or movies based on said fantasies, those horrible pieces of celluloid feces that they are). 98% of women do not react favorably to any straight-up variant of "Nice shoes, wanna fuck?" If anybody, male or female, replies with a "But this one time I..." story, fucking choke yourself. With my hand. That shit is reserved for drunken college kids or recently divorced women. Nobody intelligent* ends up in a long term relationship** with someone they fucked on a whim. The reason why we have Modern Courtship (TM), as painful as it is, is to inspect the prospective goods for herpes, psychotic former lovers and those biracial children they've had tucked away in the closet during the make-out session. Given that Men Are Only Out For Sex (TM), women, typically the more sensible creatures, tend to make sure they're not letting any old pepperoni into their hot pocket.

1 and 3 are the same creature. Guys don't talk to women they don't find attractive unless there is something else to gain (such as the friendly but way gelatinous secretary with the pancake make-up at the dentist's office). Men, when talking to other men, only tell stories, talk shop or give advice. Men that are talking to women they don't find attractive tend to do the same things even if they politely sugar coat it a little bit for the fairer sex.

/grunting and scratching

__________________
Whatever you can carry.

"You should not drink... and bake."

chinese crested

Poetry, you had me laughing - reminded me so much of when I was younger and working in bars. At least on facebook they wont be asking you to reach up for something that is on a realy high shelf or very low down to the floor. I am sure you have all overheard the desperate of a certain type be it directed at you or someone else. The internet is no different I guess.

curiousbear

You almost made me despise myself for being a guy! And yes honestly I get attracted to many women! I don't make moves because I am in committed relationship. But I do think dirty. That is the truth! I wasn't this dirty when I was younger.

So girls are perfect!? They don't have anything like this??? Or an inverted version?

Plan9

You're killing me, CuriousBear. You're killing me.

__________________
Whatever you can carry.

"You should not drink... and bake."

Baraka_Guru

Wow, hey! I'm a #1/#2 guy myself.

It's a good thing I refrain from commenting on women's photos on Facebook.


But...it's...so....tempting!

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

Poetry

This is the second time you've made a personal attack in the last two weeks, the first of which you went outside of the thread and pulled into it another thread that was entirely unrelated in an attempt to discredit my argument not on its own merits, but on my own value as a person.

It would be nice if you were able to hold to the standards that we are supposed to hold at TFP of topical discussion and not personal attack. You're smart; I'm sure you can argue a topic without bringing in the OP themselves.

Also, you disregarded my response to your posting regarding women who take "duck-faced" shots in order to continue your "point". Please note that the discussion itself has continued and you might want to keep up with it and include the new input received from other commenters, myself included, in your own responses in order to achieve maximum successful discourse and overall growth.

You flaunt your sexuality even more than I display mine. You can, obviously, continue to do so, but the only thing you may achieve from it is causing discomfort in other, less sexual, TFP members. If I was one like that, I would not appreciate it.

Now, back to discussion.

It isn't a matter of deserving or not. I found myself thinking last night how a rapist's defense can run along the lines of "she was wearing a short skirt, she deserved it" or "she flirted with me, she deserved it".

There is no "deserve". There is rationalization for poorly chosen courses of action, whether those choices are as harmless as sending a "hey nice pics" message or more destructive, like rape.

Personally, I don't think of men as "pigdogs". I actually prefer the company of men to women. I always have.

But this isn't about the "woes of being physically attractive" or men as "pigdogs". It's about the sad lack of socialization in a textual format, and how it manifests (in this case) in initial attempts at seduction and/or flirtation.

And, plain, gorgeous, ugly-- it doesn't matter. I have friends in their 50s that are near two hundred pounds overweight and they receive these messages. I have friends that are jaw-droppingly beautiful who receive them. It's never actually about looks.

The post wasn't intended to whine about Facebook, so I apologize if it came off that way. It was intended to humorously comment on the social norms of engaging in internet flirtation when initiated by some men in typical online social networking sites.

Nice Shakespeare reference.

Well, on FB it turned into a debate that is, days later, still going. It's mostly about social value on beauty versus perceived self-worth (which has spawned into some arrogance threads), along with men that are too busy traveling to put forth the effort to actually seduce someone, and some other things that aren't really sticking out.

And, yes, as we see with Plan9, there's the two-sided debate. I don't view it as much of a debate, as we're discussing two separate things (the first being active pursuit in text format that socially engages-- and its lack of social norms-- and the second being internal vainglorious behavior that somehow justifies the first activity due to skin being shown which lowers the perceived value of said woman in question), but it is something being aggressively discussed.

Anyhow, I have to get back to work. I'm sure I'll do something to cause Plan9 to declare me some sort of neo-nazi feminist with vagina dentata later on today. Yay.

__________________
"You know what? Fuck the moon! He controls our water and our women. I've had enough!"

KirStang

Off topic, but I had subordinates whom I imputed laziness, instead of seeing them as individuals trying to do their best. This made them resent me as I tried to place controls in place to monitor their work.

Also I'm in the middle of a huge fight with the GF right now because I imputed flirtyness from guys writing on my GF's wall. Yea. I think all guys talk to girls just for the chance of poon too. Even though it may have been totally innocent.

__________________

thirtiesgirl

Poetry, I think you and I are soul sisters from another mother. You, however, have the gift of expressing yourself far better than I can. I've wondered exactly the same thing many a time. Not necessarily about FB, but about why so many guys think it's ok to approach women and the first thing out of their mouths is a comment on the physical.

Lindy, I'm also a gal with big boobins, and in my younger days, I used to often get comments about them from random male strangers. I don't know how you feel about it when you receive these kinds of comments, but after a few naive years of feeling flattered by them, I started to tire of it very quickly. Why is it so mystifying for guys to learn how to approach women - in person or online - and comment on something other than their physicality? I mean, I understand how difficult it can be for guys to find the personal... I don't know... chuztpah?... to start up a conversation with a woman he finds attractive but doesn't personally know. But does it always have to start with the physical? (And for those who might argue that "women should stop complaining about how men approach them, and just approach men themselves," I'm all for it and have done so myself many times. But this isn't a discussion about that issue.)

To answer your query, Poetry, about the reason strange guys on social networking sites send people "nice pix" messages... I'd agree that most of them are testing the waters to see if it will lead to casual sex. I won't say all, because I'm willing to suspend my disbelief that a handful (a very small handful) of guys who do this are really just trying to let you know they find you attractive, with no ulterior motives. But I'd estimate that at least 98% of them have an ulterior motive, and their stilted "compliment," "nice pix," is guy shorthand for "let's chat briefly, and I hope you're willing to engage in casual sex in the very near future."

As far as what to do about it... I honestly have no idea, other than hitting the ignore button, as previously suggested. But I think it's a valid point to discuss and I'm glad to read that you brought it up on FB, and sparked an interesting discussion here.

__________________
The first thing I do in the morning is brush my teeth and sharpen my tongue. — Dorothy Parker

Plan9

I'm too drunk to comment on this bullshit, but I'd like to suggest that my posts were not directed at anybody in particular and are stand-alone commentary.

Nobody in their right mind would misconstrue my babble as a personal attack.

__________________
Whatever you can carry.

"You should not drink... and bake."

ring

I forgot what I was going to say...
I'll try again soon.

uncle phil

__________________
"We were wrong, terribly wrong. (We) should not have tried to fight a guerrilla war with conventional military tactics against a foe willing to absorb enormous casualties...in a country lacking the fundamental political stability necessary to conduct effective military and pacification operations. It could not be done and it was not done."
- Robert S. McNamara
-----------------------------------------
"We will take our napalm and flame throwers out of the land that scarcely knows the use of matches...
We will leave you your small joys and smaller troubles."
- Eugene McCarthy in "Vietnam Message"
-----------------------------------------
never wrestle with a pig.
you both get dirty;
the pig likes it.

MSD

Even if he's right (if the base biological desire isn't to fuck in the hope of reproducing, what is?) he's a colossal douche and misognyist.
You don't say ...

ring

Poetry?
I've read your other well written entries here at TFP.
I somewhat understand why Niner brought forth your other thread in another thread different than this thread. His sometimes bristly style of communication aside....it makes sense to me. It's all kinda intertwined.


You've talked about being in the porn industry,
& its dark side you were hurt by, and your attempts at compartmentalizing sex partners.
My 53 year self would advise you to get the heck out of LA & away from this atmosphere.
Los Angeles & the porn biz: "They don't Care About You As A Person."


To the OP? I'm tempted to change my gender on both face book & other places.
I love to have folks comment on my photos & it weirds me out to think that a compliment on my photos could be construed as a sexual advance...I dunno.

Poetry

While my sex life is intertwined with my views on sex, Plan9 dragged a post I made about my own current mental state into a discussion about gender stereotypes in pornography consumption. Since the post he linked to was about my own relationships and sexual activity, and not my porn consumption (which had already been determined in the thread to be separate entities), it was off topic. Its only point in being brought over was to discredit my opinion by showing me to be "not of the sexual norm"... instead of directly attacking my point.

It's what someone does when they don't have enough to stand on with their own points, so they attempt to discredit the speaker. It's weak, indirect arguing.

It's also why I haven't linked my own website to this site. Because I know that someone, in some discussion, will go blast through the whole thing, select quotes from the last three years, cobble them together and start waving a finger going "Oh god, look what she likes! Her words are worthless! A girl who has had that much sex has obviously been sexually abused (sorry, no), can't know what real love is, has emotional issues, and has no value as a person or a presenter of sexually-focused debate".

Which has happened repeatedly before. It's annoying. I apparently have so much experience that it doesn't count.

He does communicate bristly, which I'm beyond used to. I don't mind it, I tend to enjoy it, but it would be nice if he discussed as well as he bristled without having to revert to accusations of feminism (also, no-- the last major feminist I encountered... oh, we had issues) and personal offense.

Quick, off-topic, cut in here... I'm not in porn. I've never been in porn. The most I ever do is hang out on set and chat with people, help paint the occasional set and, lately, work on scripts. It's been a lot of fun. I've met so many interesting and oddly creative people that have a similar mindset to sex that I do. A lot of people have this view of what the "porn industry" is like. I certainly haven't seen all of it, or even most of it, but I do know that it is a lot less seedy than people think it is.

I've actually yet to be on a "seedy" porn set. I've never seen any drug use, aside from weed by the set construction guys. About half of the people don't even smoke cigarettes. I've never seen a girl pressured into performing, or made to feel like a piece of meat. I've never seen anyone treated rudely when they weren't acting rude in the first place.

My post about people not caring who one is as a person was not about "the porn biz". My post was about the supposed average male's attempts at internet "seduction" and his disregard for social norms because he's communicating in text.

And now... back to work. Friday will end eventually.

__________________
"You know what? Fuck the moon! He controls our water and our women. I've had enough!"

Baraka_Guru

Okay, so what have we learned?

1. Men like having sex with women and will often try to accomplish this.
   
2. This is one of the things wrong with men.

Did I miss anything?

Okay, now solutions!

I'll toss out a few:

1. Men should only do what they're told.
   
2. Men should always act with the understanding that everything they do can be construed as having perverted, aggressive, or otherwise miscreant intentions.
   
3. None of this really matters if he's extremely attractive and/or rich and/or really funny.*
   
4. It definitely doesn't matter if he's extremely attractive and rich and really funny.*

I just wanted to get the ball rolling. I don't want to steal all the thunder. There is so much we can do to help men in society, the jerks.


*Individual women each hold veto power over any and everything in deeming whether something is appropriate or acceptable.

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

thirtiesgirl

Let me amend this to read, "men should always act with the understanding that everything they do can be construed as they might potentially sexually assault a woman, especially a woman who doesn't know them well, or at all."

If we don't know you, we have no idea what you're capable of. Even if we do know you well, we still don't always know what you're capable of. One out of every 6 American women has been the victim of an attempted or completed rape in her lifetime. One out of 6. Even if a woman doesn't know the statistics, she knows that she doesn't want to be raped, and she also knows that she doesn't know you... at least not well enough. When you're thinking about approaching a woman, especially a woman you don't know well, you might want to put yourself in her shoes, think about how you might appear to her, and double-think your approach.

Here's some food for thought: Guest Blogger Starling: Schrödinger?s Rapist: or a guy?s guide to approaching strange women without being maced Shapely Prose

Forgive me for going off topic, since the original post is really about how guys approach women on social media sites, but I think this plays into so many guys' complaints about women who assert themselves and say, hey, it's not ok to approach me in this way.

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The first thing I do in the morning is brush my teeth and sharpen my tongue. — Dorothy Parker

Baraka_Guru

Well, that brings up another good point: all men are rapists.

Though I should point out that not all men are active rapists, nor do all men act on their rapist natures. I, for one, have never acted on this aspect of my nature.

The good? I think I'm a part of a majority.*
The bad? You never know when I'm going to cross that line until it's too late.


*I could be wrong. Maybe it's normal that we force some kind of sexual activity at some point in our lives and that we don't even consider it rape.

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

thirtiesgirl

You can insist this is true all you like. In fact, the more you insist, the more suspicious you become. If you're a guy I don't know, approaching me to talk, or a guy I don't know contacting me on FB, I'm not a mind reader and have no idea what your intentions are. With rape statistics being so high and rape culture the norm in our society, it makes nothing but sense for me to be suspicious of your intentions and/or expect you to leave me alone.

__________________
The first thing I do in the morning is brush my teeth and sharpen my tongue. — Dorothy Parker

Baraka_Guru

Maybe this is why I'm so sexually passive. I've never actually seduced anyone before. I've always let women come to me. Do you think this is preferable? Say, men being sexually inert until women give the right messages to suggest they should be otherwise?

---------- Post added at 09:27 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:22 PM ----------

By the way, you won't need to amend it because I would say the intention to commit sexual assault falls under miscreant intentions.

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

CinnamonGirl

Then why would you be friends with them on Facebook?


Back to the original post... this has never happened to me on Facebook. The closest, I think, was a friend I hadn't seen in a while who said something along the lines of, "hey, you're looking good!" Since I'd dropped about 50 pounds since the last time I'd seen him, I imagine that had something to do with it.

I would get friend requests on Myspace with notes similar to "nice pics!" but they were always from people I didn't know, and I would just click ignore.

*shrug*

__________________
"...for though she was ordinary, she possessed health, wit, courage, charm, and cheerfulness. But because she was not beautiful, no one ever seemed to notice these other qualities, which is so often the way of the world."


"Tell me, what is it you plan to do with your one wild and precious life?"

Poetry

Hehe, thanks. It comes from years of ranting on various topics. The last couple years have been focused on ranting on sexual dynamics, gender roles, and internet interactions.

I know guys focus on the physical. I know there's a supposed biological reason for this which sounds pretty logical to me. I just wish that, like you said, more of them had any chutzpah to go along with their lust.
I don't really think there's anything to do about it. It's very much like Lindy said... leave, or get used to pressing ignore.

But it's a bit disheartening to let yourself get chased off by a slew of "hey, you're hot... how about Tuesday"-type messages.

Here, let me fix this.

1. Men like having sex with women and will often try to accomplish this.

1.5. Men will engage in various levels of asshattery in their attempts to engage in sex, a portion of that population either ignorant willfully disregarding of other people's comfort zones and personal space, showing a total lack of intelligence and awareness with the first, making them undesirable mates or showing a total lack of respect for another human being with the latter.

1.6. The internet causes a level of social disassociation with the intended victim of the man's affections, making the disrespect or ignorance magnified.

1.7. Some men justify this behavior, whether online or off, by saying the girl was asking for it because of a short skirt or a duck-face.

1.8. Men really like duck-faces.

2. This is one of the things wrong with how some men are socialized.


As for some solutions?

How about education?

How about teaching personal responsibility and awareness in school?

How about we stop assigning social value to sex like it's a precious commodity? (I continue to think that this would solve god knows how many social-sexual problems.)

How about we "allow" women to set their own standards for partners and not call them cunts if they turn a man down because they know they're better than a "hey, nice pics" or "hey, nice tits" message?

How about we teach men about seduction and sex, give them something to work with? Show them where boundaries lie, how to read their potential partner? And tell women that it's okay to have sex with someone without having a serious relationship with them?

I don't think that's verbally accurate.

That's like saying I'm a surgeon because I can cut someone open with a knife. Or, something less aggressive sounding, that's like saying I'm a football player when I've never touched a football, but have the potential to throw one around.

All men are potential rapists.

All women could be potential rapists of men, but one of the American's government data bases that collects information on rape to show the country's statistics defines rape as something that happens to a woman... with a penis (fingers or other objects don't count), does not include anal or oral penile violations, does not count if it's a family member (that falls under incest), and does not count if she's under age (that's statutory).

And what's left is the statistic that is reported as the rate of rape in the US.

But to go back to the original rape-focused point... men cannot be rape victims, nor can women who rape other women (no penises!), in the US according to their statistic gatherings. Which really makes you wonder what the actual stats are.

Well, makes me wonder.

---------- Post added at 06:39 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:38 PM ----------

Also, has there been a single female that has posted in this thread who has said they do not get these types of messages? I haven't seen one, but then I don't know everyone's gender.

__________________
"You know what? Fuck the moon! He controls our water and our women. I've had enough!"

KirStang

Oh god. Every man is a rapist? What type of bullshit illogical approach is that? Everyone is a special butterfly who deserves to be treated as an individual until they are male? Then they are just rapists who obviously never have good intentions?

This reminds me of all the fuck-all hypotheticals I read where the offender is always male and the victim/good guy is female.

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Baraka_Guru

Poetry, I agree with you in principle that society is failing men (and boys).

That is the root of this problem and many others.

---------- Post added at 09:43 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:41 PM ----------

I should point out that I was being facetious. Though it's difficult to argue against "all men are potential rapists." I'm just not sure it's a very useful concept. Probably not.

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

KirStang

I wan't sure until you posted about being sexually passive. Then I figured you were no longer being sarcastic/facetious.

__________________

Plan9

...

__________________
Whatever you can carry.

"You should not drink... and bake."

Baraka_Guru

Also...don't your rape statistics tell you that most rapists are known by the victim?

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

MrFriendly

Although I've never had a face book, I can understand what the OP is getting at.

I've see a lot of the equivalent real life behavior and it does give me the squirts. But hey, I also see a hell of a lot women respond to it positively.

I think if you're going to contact someone you haven't spoken to in a long time, you owe more to them and yourself than just 'nice pics'. The OP is right, it shows that they don't give a shit. And keeping in mind this is from a guys point of view, but if people display to me they don't give a shit, then the feeling is quite quickly reciprocated and thus mutual. I just can't be fucked with social fluff in my life.

I can imagine the frustration, but I don't think it's terribly hard to see it for what it is, just guys being lazy dicks, and it shouldn't have to paint a bad picture of all men.

There's an outspoken Aussie lass who is my kind of feminist who is actively trying to get men on her side, and doing quite well at it. Because she believes, at the end of the day, women need men and men need women, the goal of feminism should be to unite the two with a healthy mutual understanding of eachother.

Any how much of this is just me waffling on.

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You are not a slave

keymaker

You have to give us a break Poetry...you are just so darn sexy we cannot help it!!! And since I have never seen you you know it's your mind that I lust after. And all the other ladies here are too!!!

thirtiesgirl

Yes, this is true, and I'm not disputing that fact. But that doesn't preclude women's perfectly rational suspicions of men they don't know. Just because you know you're a "nice guy" who would never "do that" to a women, we don't know it. So think twice before you approach us, especially if you're thinking of making a comment about anything physical.

__________________
The first thing I do in the morning is brush my teeth and sharpen my tongue. — Dorothy Parker