The very complicated lesbian experience for men.
 

So.. I'm a guy.

I am attracted to girls.

I guess that makes me straight.

I'm the simple part of the equation.

A FB friend of mine I had met on NYE, had hooked up with one of my buddies. She really thought I was a fun person and wanted to have me meet a few of her girlfriends.

This meetup was last night, long story short (the "medium" version is in my blog) We hit it off, sparks everywhere.

After we make it back to my place, she has something important to tell me. She's in a relationship already, with a girl.

We had texted back and forth for roughly 2 days before we had been set up to meet, we had some pretty strong conversations and connections forming. We had a great night together and things were just reaching that point in the night where intimacy was on the menu. But now it just sat there like forbidden fruit... forbidden lesbian fruit.

It's all right there in front of me and my male brain says "oh hey, this girl comes with another girl, bonus!" my actual brain says "don't treat this any differently than you would a hetero relationship"

In all honesty, I'm OK with if if she maintained her relationship with the girl as long as it wouldn't get in the way of whatever relationship she was building with me.

But the more I think about it, it just kind of would get in the way wouldn't it?

We kissed, we fondled, we crossed boundaries that would be considered cheating in some circles, and it was all just there in my arms, 6+ hours of conversation, she called in sick for work just to stay with me a little longer.


So I'm not sure how to proceed. She wants to see me again. She spent tonight with her girlfriend. She tells me how confusing it is for her, to feel this way for a guy, she thought she was content until we met and now she's just miserable with her.


So much has happened in the span of 72 hours.

I just don't know what to do now.

Hi Shauk. I'm new here. But not new when it comes to the lesbian / bi fad.

How old is she? I was actively bi in my early to mid 20's. Before it was considered cool lol. Sounds ridiculous but it really is the truth. Younger women tend to experiment with other women around that age. As they get older though - late 20's to early 30's, reality sets in and for me, I came to the conclusion that it was fun while it lasted but I need to be with men in order to feel like a woman. Not saying I'm opposed to it ever happening again though. If there ever comes a time and it feels right, I just may do it again. Who knows.

Anyways, thinking from a male's point of view, if you can detach your emotions from this girl and you've never had a 3some, 4some, etc., I say hey - jump on it. Another situation like this may not present itself again, if not for a really long time. But you mentioned that you and her were really clicking. And again, it's been my experience that if you click with someone and you try the 'casual sex with a good friend' thing, it will more than likely turn into something more serious eventually causing drama for all involved, including her girlfriend.

I guess that's all I can say right now. It's a good thing all this came out early though instead of later. You have some evaluating to do here. Good luck and I hope you get some helpful replies!

Dude, you're dating "her", not "them". Everyone that gets to call themselves an adult comes with past relationship baggage (assuming that they're not hermits). So this chick is currently banging someone else and she's got you on the side. It doesn't matter what that someone else has between their legs.

If she were banging a guy, what would your response be? Why should this be any different? Are you comfortable breaking up a couple?

You're going to have to answer those questions for yourself. I'll just give you the standard warning that if she's cheating on her girlfriend with you, there's a better than average chance that she'd cheat on you. Not that she will, just that she could.

I have to agree with Jazz, my only reservation is that you are starting a relationship out of cheating. Gender doesn't matter in the cheating. A cheater ALWAYS rationalizes/justifies the behavior somehow. To her, she justifies it by "Well, I've never felt like this about a GUY. So it's okay to cheat." Once she's dating you, it will be, "Well, I've never felt this way about a blonde guy. So it's okay...."

Hi Shauk

She wanted to have you meet some of her girlfriends. I assume some of them are part of her intimate support group and will therefore be party to this situation.
"Hey sister, he IS a great guy, and you ARE at present already in a relationship. If you are confused, then well done for avoiding the mistakes of premature clarity. Don't damage yourself with agonizing, but make sure to take account of ALL the elements as you get this sorted."


I've got a cautiously optimistic feeling about this, Shauk. Her response to her liking and developing love and desire for you was to straightway bring you, bright and visible, into the light and witness of her network of friends. Furthermore, she listened to the 'voice of her responsibility-threshold' before the 'morning after' or the week after.

And you, well, you're not just attracted to her, your attracted to her seriously enough to sit this through with her, shoulder to shoulder, giving this the weight it deserves - teasing apart the strands, to identify and do the right thing.

I think you'll be unlikely to fall into or be pulled into that 'Justification Trap' about which Cimarron warns. 'Confused Adult' is beneath your avatar and that lets me guess that you have highly developed skills of exploring, and, like she, a commendable inability to quietly take easy options for immediate gratification.

In fact, at the moment, it looks to me like you're number one candidate for being one of the best male friends she could have at this very confusing time in her life. My ex-wife struggled for many years with issues of gender-identity which resolved into gender-preference. I struggled alongside her, and sometimes I was a genuinely strong right arm, and sometimes a hurt and selfish child. I wish she and I had had friends like you back there then, for you're not likely to underestimate or undervalue any of this and you have my respect.

People make mistakes - the question is, is she the kind of person who will continue the mistake, or will she rectify it.

The way I see it, there are two and a half options here:

1) She decides her girlfriend is more important to her than you. This is the safest choice for her - stick with what she knows and not risk that her interest in you is just a curiosity that will wane over time.

2) Decide it's more important to explore a relationship with you and...

a) break up with her girlfriend.

b) have a difficult and honest discussion with her girlfriend about her interest in you and the possibility of being in both relationships simultaneously. This will very likely result in her girlfriend breaking up with her anyway, but there's a very remote possibility that it won't.

Continuing your relationship in secret is not a viable option.

Taking the 2b approach requires acceptance of all parties involved. Will her other relationship sometimes get in the way of yours? Of course. Her relationship with you will also sometimes get in the way of the other. That's the trade-off. It's a lot easier to deal with, though, when everyone is being honest about it rather than making excuses like "I had to stay late at work."

Anyway, none of these are easy options and the odds are extremely likely that one of these relationships will end, even if you take the 2b approach. Almost all relationships end at some point. Only one option has even a remote possibility of allowing for both relationships to continue, and that's the honest approach.

I think this woman is trying to figure out which gender she prefers more and you might be this test. Game on.

Thanks for the responses guys. She just called me up, let me know that she was considering breaking up with her, but instead, this morning, her girlfriend initiated the breakup instead.

Looks like they were both not too happy with the way things were going.

Doesn't look like I require patience anymore.

Game on indeed Jove.

Zenda, awesome reply man.

I'll definitely consider her disposition for cheating going forward, but I can't hold her accountable for crimes she hasn't committed against me yet.

All I really have to add is that there's a reason (and a good reason at that) that most adult relationships don't start like this. It's all a matter of what you want out of this but you're absolutely out of your mind if you're thinking any real consequential sparks are flying and that the temporary entertainment that this situation offers will give way to anything other than stupidity and heartbreak.

And then there's that whole predatory element to all of this. She may be totally willing but honestly, do you not see yourself as taking advantage of someone who is clearly confused?

...

Everyone is confused at some point or another.


Things are getting off to a weird start though. She invited me over, said she'd leave the door open and just to come in when I got there cuz she was going to hop in the shower.

Wanted me to come over and watch movies with her.

Her roommate apparently has been in a relationship for 10 years with the same guy off and on, and was inviting that guy over, who in turn invited 2 of their friends over. So 6 people and a lot of alcohol later I still found myself being very quiet and observant. I couldn't quite grasp my role in this. I felt like the other guys and girls fit the more traditional stereotype of beauty. The "bros" and the pink'd up blonde girls just kind of enjoying their foray into adulthood.

It just felt like a mixed crowd to me, not normally the type I hang out with, I wasn't really sure what to make of it. So of course I sat there in a state of overthinking it all.

Occasionally some of her favorite songs would come on and she would walk over to me and kiss me, and give me a full on lap dance whenever they would leave the room to smoke or something, this went on for hours throughout the night, sometimes they'd walk in on us and make a scene of it, but hey, I couldn't complain really. I only mention it because I feel like it may have set up the awkwardness for me later. I had a rollercoaster in my pants so to speak, up and down.

At some point the 10year couple get in to a bit of a fight, Im already feeling uncomfortable, and my "date" is spending most of her time out on the balcony trying to calm the guy down because he's distraught.

She finally got him calmed down and around 3am she pulled me off the couch in to her room.

She was ready but I just couldn't do it.

I think I was just too nervous, too tired, too drained from the constant ups and downs from before, and still feeling conflicted if this was what she wanted, or a good idea. I did what I could for her as long as it didn't involve anything below MY belt. Part of me worries that my hesitation might mean something is wrong, I dunno, maybe something is wrong. I guess I can talk to her about it at some point but I'm not really sure how to bring it up.

Hi Shauk

Well. I'm confused now! You were invited over to watch a film with She Who May Become Your Girlfried, but ended up in an impromptu multiplayer social drama.

I'll add qualification to my initial optimistic prediction: Her starting by introducing you to her girlfriends, I took, in my other post, to be evidence of 'openness' and 'honesty'. Fair enough. The invited one finds him/self in 'the Other Person's World,' and it's an opportunity for social witnessing and double checking.

However, it could also be evidence of ChimpsTeaPartyOPhilia ... which, in this case, could consist in, for those two women, confused boundaries or even a lack of them altogether, or undeclared strands in their relationship which are ripe for being acted-out, but 'need' other players in order for that to happen. The unsuspecting Guest arrives, Nothing is what it said on the ticket, and he does not know WTFs going on or what to expect.

Bear in mind that my thoughts are skewed ... I've been described by one chimpanzee I know as "Teutonic and rigid." And I've described the person who said that to me as "Chimpanzee." I'd have TOTALLY HATED having the evening you describe. BUT, there are some who'd say "hey, CHILL 'bro, don't be so uptight." OK, I've declared what I perceive to be my skew. I find those people to be crazymaking, because, as Guest, I've become an UNWILLING witness/participant in THEIR confusion.

You're already good at getting confused [I'm presuming that from your below-avatar sig, and I'll abjectly apologise if I've presumed inappropriately]. She put her initial situation on the table "I got a girlfriend, " then "Maybe I'll leave her for you," then "WHOAH ... .SHE's LEFT ME, " then "Come over to my place to watch a film" which transformed into "You are in my place where she's be with HER BOYFRIEND Who's she's been on and off with for many years, and a bunch of others." She's not done much to support YOU in any goals you may have about clarity in your life.

Her LapDancing you is, I am sure demonstrating her fondness for you, but may also have had some elements of 'Message to her Ex-girlfriend'. Dang.

Dammit ... I think I'll just apologize right now. I don't think I've got anything useful or balanced to say at the moment. My guts are churning and in your place, I, with my history and habits would get back home and then be going "I run the risk of being dragged down the rabbit hole and into the Someone Else's Vortex ." I'd be scared of the possibility that I might be being emotionally entrapped into becoming a bit-payer in her family drama.

Actually, Damn my Dammit. You had a disturbing evening and here you are. I'm going to have to sacrifice my attempts to be coherent. I'm going to ramble and hope to heck it will be useful. ROFTLMAOUIV! ... at this moment, I'm hoping to Heck that it will even be Relevant. Here goes:


I, too, would have definitely been sitting a bit outside and overthinking. Hmmmm 'overthinking'. Sometimes, when I do overthinking, it's because I need more information and when I've got it, stuff gets clear enough. Then there's times when I'm overthinking, and it's because my feelings are Clear, but my head's trying to do something it needn't. Eg, I might feel/judge "There's something rotten in the state of Denmark," or "This is weird/not right," And I might feel/feel 'torn/knotted/displaced/tripped up'. BUT, my thinking would be in a state of "What's Going On" and "I Believe that I have a hope in hell of working it out". At the time, I certainly feel I Need to, because sitting in mixup and confusion Hurts - it feels bad.

Hmmm. OK, Shauk - I'm coming to a tentative conclusion, or at least forcing my thinking toward something solid.
You are no longer in a 'cheating/not cheating' scenario.
You are in an out-in-the-open WTF scenario
A big dose of ????head-scratching???? is part of your private relationship with her ... she has questions she wants you to become involved in.
A big dose of ????head-scratching???? is now part of your public/social relationship with her.

And here's a tentative recommendation. Tentative, because as I utter it, I can feel the web strands vibrating from my own insecurities, but I'll deliver it:

Have there been times in your life when you've 'lost yourself' ... been in the midst of something that occupied your attention even unto your 'soul'. Maybe you'd have ONLY realized AFTERWARD that you'd been 'in' something like that.
Now, have there been times in your life when you have been 'in' something like that At the Same Time as knowing 'We Ain't In Kansas any more, Toto' ?
Now have there been times like the above, but where you've kept firm grasp on your OWN Certainties and your Own confusions/unresolved stuff? Not times when you felt great and competent, just times when you've felt 'YOU' ... warts and all. The essential thing being that they're YOUR warts and all. YOUR life story which ... you were living it Before this situation, and will be living it Afterward ... whether or not she will be part of it.

I'd like you to consolidate your sense of your OWN life story before and after each contact you have with her. You IN your Own life. Before and after texts, phonecalls, meetings in public, or your place, or her place. When she goes out through a doorway, when she returns. No more than ten seconds before, and about thirty seconds after to link back to the ten seconds before. You may then have a great time, a shit time, or a confusing time, but it will always be the case that 'YouAndHer' will become the filling in a 'You' sandwich.

You ever read the Odyssey? Odysseus decides to take the boat home. There's the Sirens over there and they're attractive and good singers, but he's heard they're dangerous. "Tie me to the mast," he says ... cos then, though he'll feel the pull, he won't get lost. He'll stay safe and retain his ability to navigate. The mast is your present knowing of you. Whether you like the mast as it is, or whether it is a mast you are wanting to improve, it is your mast.

Mind you, Shauk, this is an experiment I've cobbled together. The purpose is obviously so you can 'protect yourself' into a position whereby you may less uncomfortably do what you need to do right both by her, by both of you, and by you. However, it is devised in response to only a few posts by you on this forum, and by a n00b, for Cripe's sake, who hasn't developed perspective through a robust backlog of shared history with you. Therefore, given that its results will extend beyond what we can predict for this situation, we need to keep close check on the process and, as you implement it your feedback how it alters your experience is essential.

Heh ... you were feeling overthinky at her place.
Well, you've described the kind of stuff which brings me to my knees - and not in a fun way - so I've gone and overthinkified myself now. Therefore I'd better call this post my 'response-in-progress', close it, and


and ....er .... ?

What was I doing up until I read your post and composed my response?

I'd been familiarizing myself with the Tilted Playground, transferring my viola recording to my editing software, and converting to mp3 my reading of Ch10 of Wuthering Heights.

Phew! OK, now I'll add a doumbek part to the viola and start practicing for Ch 11 of WH.

And Shauk ... I bet you can remember stuff YOU were in the middle of getting on well before you got on the computer and read this post ...

OH ..... are you in contact with her this evening or tomorrow?

Take care :)

well to clarify, the 10 year relationship I was referring to was between her roommate (a girl) and this guy that came over later.

Her roommate isn't involved with my "date" at all, nor has been as far as I know.

To put it out there how I felt about it all. I felt like she was the only one I actually knew, and she did her best to make sure I was having a good time. She didn't really plan on her roommate inviting all those people over, but there it is.

So yeah no movies actually got watched. Instead, we did go over a lot of her music, she really wants to hear more of mine, so yeah tentatively we are planning for her to come over after she gets off work on Sunday or something. She wants to go through my collection, possibly learn how to make it from scratch, etc..

Things seemed to have calmed down a bit today, I just had to focus on the positive, she did give me the hug/kiss and tell me she wanted to hang out this weekend as I was leaving her place, She does seem excited about coming over.

I think I'll actually be able to figure this out and calm down if it's just some one on one time.

Ahh ... thanks for that clarification. I'd got the wrong end of the stick - thought it was a 'mirroring' situation, and that rang some of my alarm bells. Phew.

I'm glad she's coming round to your place this weekend - like you say - 'one on one'. I bet you'll both sort out stuff, and I hope the two of you have a great time.

All the best :)

hrm, new information on the progress of this.

We were texting a lil back and forth last night about this or that, she asked me if I could do her a favor and give her a ride to work tomorrow (that would be today)

Now, it was midnight at this point. and so I asked when? she said she had to be at work at 7am, but her car is still out for the week until her part comes in.

So I would have had to be up at like 530 to make the 30 minute drive out there, and 30 minute back and leave that safety window of 30 minute to get woke up etc..
I was just like "um I should probably just stay awake then if you need a ride that bad."

Then she said "well you can just drive over now and stay here for the night"

"oh you want a cuddle buddy, I see"

"sounds good to me!"

So yeah, I don't have anything better to do considering I got laid off 2 days before Christmas and all.

Her ex gf sent her a provocative photo of herself at 4am, she just threw her phone across the room and grunted "bitch"

Seems weird,

Anyways, it gets weirder in that, I get home after I drop her off at work (which is like 2 blocks from my apartment)

I have a message from my most recent "ex" (who i've blogged about extensively) in summary, I met her at a concert, 3 months hardcore intense lovey dovey passion then bam, internal brick wall from her, she went and ignored me for 3 months and had a relationship with someone else, got fed up with it and tried to come back to me, and I didn't make it easy for her, so she attacked me and I basically told her to eat a (nother) dick because I did nothing wrong.

Now after another silent treatment she's wanting to talk to me in person next week.

I got ahold of her and asked her why she waited to long to want to talk

"cuz I wanted my space. I've been pretty hurt & vulnerable about stuff. I know, you wanted it done & over with but I needed more time. I'm more patient. "


curious development.

anyways I decided to let her (the current girl) know that I might have to deal with some ex issues myself, since I mean I'm obviously in the know about hers, its only fair she know about mine, and I figured I would need to gauge her reaction to kinda figure out what it is she wants of me exactly. Talked about her ex a bit, then mine, and I was just like "man, relationships used to be awesome and simple, boy meets girl, the end. now it's just all a mess and confusing"

So her "statement" at this point was basically "I wasn't sure what I wanted or was doing the night I met you but now I know I don't want commitment or to be tied down. I'm down for hanging out and having fun and just not making it complicated, but I am going to focus on becoming less and less indecisive given time."

Which to me is basically "we'll figure it out later, just see what comes of it for now"

It's the best I'm going to get out of her for now. Whats odd is I've spent more time with her in the last week than I spent with my ex in the last 3 months.

I'm not really worried about meeting up with the ex, all I have to offer her is closure, she's just a bad seed that needs disposed of.

"...until her part comes in.", don't make it harder on yourself, Shauk.

i c wut u did thar.

Ugh, I had this long, thoughtful paragraph prepared and I'm just going to blow it away and suggest that you're turning into a human lint trap for broken / "confused" people. Knock that shit off. You're playing EOD for all these dramabombs. And it seems like you're willingly carrying one yourself.

Jazz's/Skafe's initial response echos the common sense factor. Other have dropped all sorts of think/feel crap. I'm going with: Stop buying lemons.

i've been in this exact situation OP. Basically ignore it and hope she brings it up.

Is it at all possible that I'm somehow just more open to the fact that everyone is flawed somehow? I can't just shut everyone down for every minute sign of potential drama before it actually happens. Seems odd to me. Plus I think I'm critical enough that I'd wind up being a video gaming hermit in no time flat if I wasn't open to the fact that humans have issues. Hell, I'd hate myself for everything wrong I've ever done with that mindset, but life is a learning process. Nobody handed us a manual ya know?

In any case, Yes, there is potential for fallout. She has expressed that she wants this to become "more" than just sex, but at the same time, says she is confused and thinks she needs to figure her shit out, remain single before committing and calling it a relationship.

I'm very good at getting myself in to these grey areas apparently.

Honestly I'd be happy if she said she wanted to date, but right now she seems like my favorite nerd friend. Heck she's coming over to do some head to head DS/mario and rock band action with me, then we'll probably nerd out with movies/music and whatnot then we'll take our nerdy asses to the bedroom and, hey, it feels alright to me.

From MY end of things, she's got a welcome spot in my life, I guess the only confusion in this scenario is where she sees me in things.

I mean if I had to summarize her in 3 words, she's all about Pirates, Vampires, and Sex.

Basically shes sailing the seas of life having a good time, getting her booty, so to speak, in her quest to retain mortality by staying young/acting young while she has that option, and well, sex is sex, who doesn't like sex? *shrug*

See the problem is, I overthink things probably, honestly if I were more patient with people things would go a lot smoother I'm sure.

I mean I'm bracing for the fact that I might just be another notch on her belt so to speak, (and hell, girls thought they were the only ones with that worry) but you know, I'm gonna sit here and wonder until this grey becomes black and white instead right?

This whole meeting with the ex situation is looming closer as well :\

Shauk, here is the truth:

You are a drama llama.

You crave drama. You like the excitement drama brings. You find yourself drawn to others who create drama. You are willing to sacrifice for drama because it brings you some kind of feeling that nothing else does.

Until you admit your addiction to drama, you are going to keep going round and round and round with women like this. Your blog is a testament to your addiction to drama. You hang on to people, like your ex, long after you should have cut them loose because they create the drama you thrive off of. See your post above: you are going to see your ex again. WHY, SHAUK, WHY?! No sane, not-addicted-to-drama person would EVER see your ex again.

Please, take a moment and evaluate your need for drama. Why does it exist? Why do you do this to yourself? What's with the self-torture? What's with the overanalysis? Why do you feel the need to get into the teeny, tiny details of every interaction with another person and blow them completely out of proportion?

I couldn't agree more with Snowy and that's not only because she's absolutely spot-on but because I've been exactly where you're headed Shauk - treating your relationships as some sort of bootcamp for the broken and unavailable only leaves you a victim to the inevitable shitstorm they'll become. You'll eventually have to come to terms with the fact that while no one is perfect, your penchant for seeking out these sorts of people and maintaining relationships like this speaks more about you and your broken sense of self than it does about them.

It's clear you're not interested in engaging in a critical discussion of what you're doing here unless it supports what you're going to do anyway but I'll suggest again that you take the time to seriously consider what all of this stuff says about you. It doesn't matter how good it makes you feel in the moment, being an adult entails sacking up, doing what's right and taking care of yourself.

When you're ready you'll come to find that there's too many good women out there for these games.

(and also, I'll reiterate, you're totally taking advantage of this girl.)

Not interested in the attacks on my character. I'm pretty sure I have a strong moral compass and I'm not taking advantage of anyone. I'm actually interested in people NOT creating drama, I simply wish to give them the chance to prove that they wont. Again, it's not my fault that they're broken and fucked up, but yes, maybe it's my fault for giving them that chance that YOU wouldn't, just because I'm far more forgiving than you may be of a situation or scenario.

As for seeing the ex, I don't really feel the need to, im just genuinely curious what she, a person I have no relationship, could have to tell me, that can only be said in person. I asked her to just tell me and get it done with but she said she wasn't comfortable saying it online or over the phone. I don't know what it could possibly be.

Manic, I'm 31, I've had my share of dating. "good women" don't really exist, hell "good people" hardly exist. It's just a matter of who's better at hiding their flaws from the inquisitive judgment of others. On the superficial plane, people dive in to makeup, fashion, and excessive hygienic rituals. On the emotional plane, people hide their damage behind a shroud of humor or diversionary activities, people bury that lost love from a lover past in a foray of one night meaningless relationships, I've been victim to that kind of shit but under that, you know they'd be a good person if they could just *stop*, then some people will even drag a spiritual connotation into the equation to explain the way they are. Lacking logic or emotion as a scapegoat, some sort of faith that lets them damage the respect they should have for another human being.

I'm not taking advantage of her, the way you state it, I only have bad things to look forward to here, at least she gains the benefit of figuring out what she actually wants, while enjoying a bond with me that she enjoys enough to seek me out (even if it's temporary, You cannot predict the outcome any more than I can, so stop shitting me and telling me "how it is" when you dont KNOW yet how it is or will be)

What you CAN honestly try and discuss here, is what kinds of things I should be asking, figuring out, considering, to get to know the real her and possibly help her learn about herself as well.

I'm pretty sure I only know her on a mostly superficial level at this point, and I'm not a superficial person. I do appreciate beauty but I've let better looking girls go for less. I only post about the significant interests, not every single interaction with every single person every single day. So please, don't even pretend to try and psychoanalyze me based on that, otherwise you'll get a very skewed and very incorrect picture.

Moving on.

To restate: I'm interested, I'm also evaluating her interest cautiously. Her interest, while verbally stated to be "lets just wait and see" is seemingly more intense than that. Lets call it "body language" but when I've heard that before, it's been with my previous relationships. While they were content to see me once a week, maybe every other week. This one. I've seen a lot of just this week alone. The night that we met
2 days later to have dinner, then later to meet her roommate (then all that stuff happened in the OP) then once she wanted me to come over at midnight or so/1am just to be her cuddle buddy for the night, tonight she texted me while she watched a scary movie, maybe cuz she wished I was there or what but she didn't want me to stop talking to her, it made me smile, it's funny. tomorrow she will be at my place after she gets off work.

in all this time, sex was only brought in to the picture once, and I freaked out and couldn't do it. So again, taking advantage of her? fuck no. I've given her time to reconsider her advances, she's setting all of this up so far.


Obviously my perspective on things has changed a bit since the 1st post, we've hung out more, I've learned a bit more about her, but in my opinion, not enough. So... if you were me, what would you do? I mean besides look in the mirror and say "gee you're a bad drama llama and taking advantage of this girl?"

If you want me to break it off then fine, I'll just go back to meaningless dates that I dont write about, but for fucks sake, can I not entertain the idea of a relationship without people getting on my fucking shit about it? Does everything have to be perfect for you people?

Shauk, Snowy and Manic are not attacking you in the slightest. They are giving you an honest opinion. It may be hard to hear but you should try listening.

it feels dismissive of the situation I'm actually trying to figure out here. I no longer view "her" as a problem, or "myself" as a problem.

In fact I don't think we have a problem in the slightest as of yet. Whatever problem there was, disappeared when the ex disappeared. I simply have newer, more relevant questions about my situation at this point.

I already explained my rationale behind my "drama" and I'm still waiting to here a proper explanation as to why an assertation that I'm taking advantage of someone is not considered an attack on my character.

Implying that I should try listening would also imply you agree with them though, so maybe I've done a poor job of explaining the situation.

I'm going to go back and try to read through this like I'm not involved in any way because I feel like I may have left something out thats slanting this discussion down the wrong path.

---------- Post added at 12:40 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:27 AM ----------

OK read it over again and really, I think I got all the relevant points in there, just assume for the most part that these are 2 good people, trying to figure out where this is going.

How would they/should they go about it? There's not really a manual on relationships of the formation thereof. It's really just boy meets girl bullshit isn't it?

I did find out that she wasn't a straight up lesbian, she was married while she was rather young, Right at 21. the guy was such a bad experience for her that she just pretty much stuck to the girlside of things til now. Knowing THAT it actually makes more sense, because I don't consider myself to be like "most guys" much less "most people" who are just notching their killcount up one at a time and being totally selfish thru life point A thru point B. (aka the navy buddy in the 1st post who sleeps with a different girl every night of the week and doesn't give a shit about how they feel about it the next day.)



I dont know if any of this clarifies what I'm trying to figure out or not but, fuck it, I tried.

It sounds to me like you are being quite open about the options. At least you know of the situation she is coming from right from the start. At first your issue was her being lesbian, but looks like you would be coming to conclusion this is no issue after all.

I'm hetero, I like men and I have to admit, that the thought of some guy fancying men, would make me not get interested in them. But I haven't been in a situation, where I would have to consider whether I could cope with it or not.

You can feign an inability to understand, twist what's been written and assume as much as you'd like about myself or anyone else that's responded but this isn't about us, it's about you. I've substantiated much of the claims I've made in this discussion by putting it out there that I've done plenty of the same shit you're doing now. Cut the shit already.

We all come with baggage and issues but anyone can see that you seek out the especially broken, especially complicated and highly likely to fuck you over types. There's a world of women out there who don't need saving, surely you can find one if you cared enough to look.

I'm not predicting the future nor am I denying your ability to make it work with this girl. I'm questioning your standards. I imagine most of us here would've walked away from this situation before it got off the ground. None of this is that hard to understand.


Nah, no thanks.

It's not only about sex. You honestly think the best way for her to sort out her own sexuality is in some kinda-sorta cheating relationship limbo with you? Seriously?

A little introspection and a slice of humble pie would do you good. Whether you care enough to accept it, you've asked for every word of advice offered here, the least you could do is graciously agree to disagree.

Ultimately, save yourself, Hasselhoff.

Actually it's not about you, it's not about me either, it's about the situation. It's only about you in so much that I'm honestly asking how you would approach the situation, but you make it clear that you would have given up on it already, so now that you're bored with that conclusion, you've no choice but to come after me for causing the scenario to remain in play.
Actually I'm quite introverted towards relationships, every one of my successful (relatively speaking) relationships that have lasted over a year, and in one case, almost 5 years, was from them seeking me out and initiating the chase, so to speak. I feel like this is a rare case where we both saw each other online before we knew we were being set up by our mutual friend, had that mutual attraction, and for once, it's not one sided. However, yes, the only red flag, which is more just a red herring than an actual flag at this point, is that she was in a relationship at the time when she agreed to meet me. She did not expect to hit it off as well as we did. Nor did I.


See, it IS hard for me to understand. I guess you feel you can just jump on the next seaworthy boat that passes through your waters with little effort, but personally, I like giving each person a 101 point inspection before I deem them a complete failure. I'm sure anyone in here has put an awkward foot forward and been judged way too soon before your true potential shone through. I wouldn't want anyone to dismiss me so quickly, I'm not about to be a hypocrite.

Precisely the problem with your participation in this thread if you ask me.


non-issue at this point, had it continued down that path, had she not expressed her intent to break up with her anyway, I would have had much stronger reservations. The point has come and gone, but you seem to like to dwell on irrelevance.


I'll make the concession that I asked for it, and agree to disagree then.

I've not read the entire thread, so excuse me for taking a little bit of a leap here.

Maybe this is the crux, where you're too forgiving or giving it so many chances and opportunities. Maybe it doesn't need a 101 point inspection but just a 10 point inspection, reduce your criteria to the more crucial and critical.

Shauk, using your car analogy... this is my take.

The 101 point inspection is a guideline for thoroughness. Every person however, has those items that are the make or break pieces. Is it really crucial to continue all the way down the list of remaining 80 items if something as critical as a car engine is missing?

It really comes down to why you're engaging in the inspection in the first place. If you were buying a car that wasn't working for the parts, then your motivation is different than that of someone who is desiring a functional vehicle with all the right overall parts to get them from A to B.

My response to the whole approach of attraction would be you need to know what you're looking for first. You can't know if you have the right car for you needs unless you know where you're expecting it to take you. All this ambiguity is only there because everyone's just kind of "hmm.. meh... I dunnno... what do you think?"

I personally couldn't take that kind of risk that I'd invest time and money into something that isn't what I'm looking for. Attraction can be a great thing, but you gotta have all the working parts to make things go forward.

Yeah you guys might be right about that then. I do tend to gloss over the bad things in favor of putting a positive spin sometimes.

We had a really good talk last night about what it is we're doing, and she says she loves being around me, she's spending all of her free time with me. That she's not seeing anyone else currently but that she's not gonna promise exclusivity or anything at this point.


and I was just like "yeah there are at least 3 rungs on the ladder higher up than me you can climb to if they come within reach"
and she was like "it's not even that, I just feel like a whore now, I'd have sex every night if I could, I've been in serious relationships since I was 17 and I'm just finally free of that. I just need some time to live a little.


So yeah basically she's saying "hey you're cool but I'm gonna fuck around with other people if I get the chance"

So right now this is sounding like it's a FWB situation. It could turn in to more as she gets to know me, but as for right now, I guess hoping for a relationship to come out of this would be a foolish bet. I mean it could happen but *shrug* Seems to be my lot in life, always good enough to get laid, not good enough to claim as yours though.

Hi Shauk

Obviously, I've been following how you've been getting along. I want to make sure I'm reading you right at this point:

You're saying:
You'd prefer 'a relationship'
This here looks like FWB

Your adding those to previous experiences and confirming a notion:
that it means something about your worth as a person.

?

Forgive me for oversimplifying the structure ... you might need to add detail to my precis, and double check to confirm how deeply this feels to represent you in your life.

There's a marked difference between being a judgmental hypocrite and and an individual with a well developed criteria of qualities you'd expect a potential partner to meet before investing anything in them. Not only for the sake of sheer compatibility but to ensure your head and heart aren't unnecessarily fucked with.

Alright well then setting aside entirely all questions concerning her admittedly questionable sexuality and the obvious extent to which she must be reeling from its plasticity - why be anyone's rebound? People need time after a relationship to reflect and get closure and make sense of all that's transpired, don't you think you should be more careful than to involve yourself with someone who, to use your metaphor, may just be jumping from one ship to the next?

All in all, cheers and good luck with this stuff. Take care of yourself.

Yeah it's def a FWB and it's the 1st time I've ever really had an honest fwb situation.

Now I must admit, now that all the cards are on the table, it's not as interesting as it was initially.

I mean it's been roughly 2 weeks since I met her and my interest is waning.
Meeting with my ex seems like it wasn't a bad idea, knowing what I know now.

I wanna say its bad in a way because it's deflecting my interest in the fwb, but good for the same reason because she's the one saying it's not gonna be more then fwb.

I wound up "sleeping" with the ex, in a sense. a few nights ago

honestly it's become hard for me to keep the thread updated so I would just recommend going over the blog stuff if you're really wanting to know the details.

I thought my ex didn't have a chance in hell of winning me over but she's really turning over a new leaf for me. It's refreshing, I want to believe that things are different. But it's just as complicated because there's another guy involved in this story now. Her feelings for me are there, but they're not final as long as he's in the picture. He controls her it seems. I'm trying to figure out how that gets taken care of.

Hi Shauk
Thanks for your response. Sounds like things have moved on in some ways. I re-read the work of you and the previous posters and believe much may still apply to this present situation.
Good luck and take care :)