SecretMethod70

Strange: Fisting isn't entirely uncommon. Just because you find it revolting doesn't mean others do. Rent/download some real lesbian porn sometime... it tends to be rather kinky. Hell, the woman- (and lesbian-) owned sex toy store ono and I frequent has some rather large dildos, including a fist dildo. This is a place that does not generally contain shitty "novelty" toys. Not saying they sell a bunch of them, but they're stocked because their clientèle wants it, not because some corporate douche at Penthouse told them to stock it.

As for whether sex can take place without a penis, you're obviously free to believe whatever you want. I'd merely point out that the vast majority of people disagree with you, and with good reason. Your attitudes toward sex are absolutely in the minority, and who are you to proclaim that lesbians must be either somewhat asexual or secretly yearning for cock? I'd love to see you say that in one of the lesbian bars around here, but then they'd end up disproving your general view that women are less capable of violence too

It's not that you believe what you believe about sexuality that's most frustrating, it's that you believe it in such a way as to refuse any possibility of being wrong about what other people feel.

__________________
Le temps détruit tout

"Musicians are the carriers and communicators of spirit in the most immediate sense." - Kurt Elling

Willravel

Not many. And some of them are gay themselves.
So you're saying I'm like heterosexual lite, all the man without the guilt. I've considered that (including the only half-funny food reference). Still, what I might be interpreting as timidness on the issue could be me seeing something that's not there. I'm waiting for stronger signals for now, and frankly I'm just fine staying friends with her. She's good people.

Are there any ladies that enjoy the company of ladies on TFP that would be willing to offer their perspective? You can post anonymously by checking the little box on the upper right as you post.

Baraka_Guru

I pretty much agree with Smeth's response, but this I still don't get:
Your basic claim is that lesbians cannot have sex, but gays can. This is because lesbians lack the essential equipment, which is a cock.

So maybe lesbians don't exist. We need a new name for women who should be fucked by men but aren't because they aren't attracted to them and instead would like a platonic relationship with their own gender.

"Lesbian sex" is an oxymoron.

"So-called" lesbians who attempt to penetrate their partners with anything other than a cock are merely emulating something from a "revolting" pornographic film.

Maybe lesbians should switch teams. They are clearly on the losing side. They aren't even playing with the proper "equipment." How fair is that?

Have you notified your feminist colleagues about all of this?

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

Strange Famous

I would say that lebians do exist, but female homosexuals do not.

I do not describe lesbian sexual simulation as revolting - but "fisting" as revolting - because this is a very dangerous and violent activity which does not take place anywhere other than in the worst kind of pornography. There is nothing disgusting about two women in love engaging in physical activities... what is disgusting is violent and dangerous pornography produced for the sake of men which is liable to cause physical injury to the women who are coerced into taking part in it. Activities such as "fisting" are not natural and are physically dangerous and as such I do not approve of them. I do not approve of violence against women - I find it remarkable and incredible that you consider this an anti-feminist position.

__________________
"Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate,
for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing
hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain
without being uncovered."

The Gospel of Thomas

Willravel

I would imagine your fist is too big for most women, SF. I don't pretend to be an expert on real lesbian sex, though, mostly because I've never experienced it and if a straight guy asks lesbians about such things he's seen as a perv and at best only gets part of the information. Some lesbians do fist in the comfort of their own home, without any ill will towards each other or without being pressured by some pornographic film. Basically anything you imagine sexually in history has likely ben performed freely and consensually. Case in point: scat.

Am I remembering correctly that you are against any acts of consensual sexual violence? I remember having a discussion about blood play and someone took a hardliner position. I like blood play, personally, and would never file a complaint against a woman that chose to partake with me.

Baraka_Guru

You might be surprised to know what percentage of self-identifying lesbians consider themselves both female and homosexual. I think quite a few gays are homosexual too. But is this because of the cock thing?

Fisting might be extreme, but to claim it only happens in films to please men is naive at best. Some feminists believe penile penetration of females in any manner to be violent, so there you go.

As for lesbians, I can only assume it's usually about the tongues, fingers, and toys. Not sex, mind you, but "platonic interactions"...to orgasm...without men....which isn't homosexual at all....

Willravel must have a chance after all, because all women are made for sticking cocks into. They aren't sexually complete without them.

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

snowy

Wow...as someone who's taken part in some of the sex acts SF seems to think do not happen, I am just flabbergasted.

For the record, the female vagina is designed to stretch; after all, when a woman gives birth naturally she has to push a baby--and its head--through there. Believe me, a female fist is nothing.

__________________
If I am not better, at least I am different. --Jean-Jacques Rousseau

Willravel

FTFY.

/joking of course.

Strange Famous

"Blood Play" - let's use clear language so no one is mistaken. We are talking about a male, using a sharp blade, to wound in a non critical way a woman because he finds the act of wounding and/or inflicting pain to be sexually exciting or pleasurable?

I think the majority of the people have a lot of questions and doubt about activities likes this.

It may be true that some women consent to this, or possibly even volunteer to be treated in that way - but I would question the context of that consent very strongly before I would find such activities acceptable. If we find that the man has coerced, threatened, used unfair persuasion in any way against the woman then we are talking about wounding/assault with a weapon/etc

__________________
"Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate,
for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing
hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain
without being uncovered."

The Gospel of Thomas

SecretMethod70

Back to the feminism thing, one must clearly think women are inferior if you think most are incapable of consenting to such things without it being coersion. It may be a shock to you, but most things people do in sex - whether it's missionary, fisting, blood play, whipping, or scat - is consensual. You think the majority of people have questions... just because you do? Granted, many people probably do think blood play is "out there," but it seems most questions surrounding the activity have to do with either person's mental health, not whether or not the woman actually consented to the activity.

Funny how you also ignored the actual female pointing out her actual experience doing things you say only happens in the most revolting of porn.

__________________
Le temps détruit tout

"Musicians are the carriers and communicators of spirit in the most immediate sense." - Kurt Elling

Willravel

That's a bit narrow as far as definitions are concerned. Blood play is any instance of the use of blood in sexuality. It can mean anything from biting the lip of a parter and breaking skin intentionally to cutting and sucking. It's, by definition, truly consensual, and practitioners take steps to be safe (which means being free of disease and ensuring that any injury will be free of infection and can't cause serious permanent damage). In my experience, it's my blood, but yes it can be the man retrieving blood from the woman. It doesn't even have to be a dom/sub thing (or a Twilight thing), though it often is.

I don't want to get off topic, though.

Strange Famous

In no way do I consider women inferior to men. In fact it is the opposite. Women on the whole are kinder, more moral, less violent, less greedy, more emotionally intelligent and lacking completely in cruelty compared to men.

One person made some kind of comment earlier that some lesbian would lead men on because simply because they enjoyed hurting their feelings. I think this is very unlikely... it is completely alien to the mindset of the normal female to be cruel in this way. I am not naive, I dont deny that in some occassions women may use their looks or attractions to get their way in some thing - but to suppose that any woman would do this simply for the pleasure of hurting someone is crazy. If this woman exists my feeling is that she is pyschologically male and suffering from gender identification crisis.

It is the male, aggressive and sexist on the whole - who will seek conquest purely for its sake, regardless of the othes feelings of other people. This sort of caddish selfishness does not exist in women except in very extreme cases where the woman is mentally ill. For the male this is average behaviour.

__________________
"Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate,
for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing
hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain
without being uncovered."

The Gospel of Thomas

Baraka_Guru

WTF?

Women are generally good.

Men are generally evil.

Evil women suffer from gender identity problems and/or mental illness.

The evil in men is healthy and natural.

Good men are rare, and are mentally ill or suffer from gender identity crises.

Did I get that straight?

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

Cynthetiq

delusional justification much?

__________________
I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not.

Baraka_Guru

It looks like someone needs to reread Judith Butler.

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

pig

To the OP/will: I would say there's no ethical delimna involved, as long as you are clear that you're not using sneaky sneaky coercion or psych games to get her to do something that you strongly sense she'll regret. Otherwise, she may self-identify as a lesbian, but perhaps that's not entirely accurate for her? Who can know? It's ultimately up to her...I'd sort of let tensions build up until it was obvious and ridiculous, and then have THE TALK. If it never gets there, I'd let it lie fallow.

To this other bit, I'll simply repost my thoughts from previous discussions of a similar vein:





with the addition that the very definition that sex is defined by the presence of a cock, and thus from a masculine perspective, is in my opinion incorrect. The act of (heterosexual) sex involves not only the act of penetration, but the act of being penetrated. Is there a fucker and a fuckee, or two fuckers, or two fuckees, or two people simultaneously being fuckers and fuckees. The Zen in me suggests the latter.

Regardless, carry on.

__________________
You don't love me, you just love my piggy style

Plan9

Solid, Pig. Solid.

__________________
Whatever you can carry.

"You should not drink... and bake."

Cimarron29414

I'm really trying to wrap my brain around this as some sort of moral dilemma. She's been with men before sexually? Men who are gay? Is not the definition of homosexual "having sex exclusively with your own gender"? If a man is having sex with women and men, he's not homosexual. If a woman is committing sexual acts with men and women, then she is not homosexual. You aren't switching her. If you bump uglies with her, you are simply partaking in what seems freely offered to both men and women. Bag it, then bag it.

__________________
Gives a man a halo, does mead.

"Here lies The_Jazz: Killed by an ambitious, sparkly, pink butterfly."

Plan9

Did you just reference the elusive double bag?

__________________
Whatever you can carry.

"You should not drink... and bake."

Cimarron29414

I meant bag your member, then bag the cootchie. I suppose it's a bit of a hunting term However, it could mean double-bag yourself or double bag her. I'm certain she's a lovely, disease free girl, so the latter two definitions need not apply.

__________________
Gives a man a halo, does mead.

"Here lies The_Jazz: Killed by an ambitious, sparkly, pink butterfly."

Salem

The only real experience I have on this issue is actually fairly recent. I identify as a lesbian, and about this time last year I had just known this girl for a month of two and she was starting to drive me bonkers.

She told me she was bisexual, and we would flirt, and we would hold hands and for months, MONTHS we kept on with this, and I would do everything I could to figure out if she liked me back, tried so hard to convince her we could be good together, that I would love and support her(she has a few emotional "problems") and eventually she decided she was more on the straight side of bisexual, and that we should just, JUST be friends. Final and firm. She's still one of my best friends.


I really think in terms of ethics it depends on the situation. If you just find someone you think its hot and you find out they don't bat for your team and you try to fix that, I don't think that's right. If you fall for someone unlikely(someone of your sex when you've identified as heterosexual, someone of the opposite sex when you're identified with homosexual, a great friend, ect) That's different, That's circumstance. Love is a force you can't deny. It happens at random, unexpectedly. You don't get to chose who you fall for.

SecretMethod70

Will: pig has it right. Let it reach the point where there's no denying it, if it exists, and then it's the right time to make a move. Otherwise, you just run the risk of looking like a jerk if you're reading things wrong.


Strange: I'm pretty sure I've pointed it out before, but your logic is almost exactly the same as the logic used in oppressive cultures. Islamic women aren't required to cover their faces because they're bad people, they're required to cover their faces because men are such horrible creatures who cannot resist the unintentional temptations of the innocent woman. Their mere visual existence is a temptation to the brute that is man.

Such attitudes are sexist toward both genders.

Even more telling, I find it hilarious that when someone specifically points out actual actions of another person, your response is simply, "I think this is very unlikely." What you think is irrelevant to the facts. Of course, if you knew that, you'd realize that what you think other people feel has nothing to do with the reality of the world.

The fact I need to link to a teen website to explain to you that lesbians have sex too says quite a bit: How do lesbians have sex? | Scarleteen

That was the first result for a google search of "can lesbians have sex." Here's the third result, written by a lesbian: Girl On Girl: Lesbians Can Have Sex, Trust Me | The Frisky

As she says at the end, echoing an earlier sentiment I posted, "I suggest you walk up to a lesbian couple on the street and tell them they are virgins. See what happens. I dare ya." But, again, I trust you won't believe her prediction either, since any woman who would act cruel is "psychologically male."

The sad part is you have no idea just how offensive your attitudes are.

__________________
Le temps détruit tout

"Musicians are the carriers and communicators of spirit in the most immediate sense." - Kurt Elling

Willravel

Sounds like a plan.

Chumley

Hi to all the TFP regulars - I'm kind of a lurker, trying to work my way outta my shell. A very interesting conversation. Makes me think of all the gays I have known, and the evolution of my understanding of... I don't know, what it means to be gay.

My best friend growing up - his mom lived with a woman, they were obviously in a relationship, but it was very cool - they felt like regular parents - this was in the mid-70s. Liberal neighborhood . She (his mom) was very clear about her identity, and boy was it fluid. She basically swung both ways, and went back and forth in and out of long-term relationships with both women and men over the years. So there are people who do that, apparently. Haven't known a whole lot of them personally, but a few.

Then I was in a band with a lesbian rhythm section. Interesting days -- we all ogled the women together. One of them was butch, and yea, maybe she woulda sparked a bit if I hit on her. They were pretty .... typical... ? if you can ever say that.... typical lesbians, at least from my perspective... they were insular about themselves, a little, and I don't think I woulda tried (or wanted) to flip them.

Another band I was in, the bassist was gay (different lady) -- her girlfriend actually got us a gig at a lesbian bar -- very weird night -- they loved our chick singer, but glared like hell at the 3 guys in the band. Anyway, strangest thing, this lady actually seduced ME one night after a gig -- she said she wasn't switching teams, but wanted to... sample me, as best I understood it. She need gentleness above all, and well that's the kind of guy I am, and I made her feel safe enough, apparently. It was actually really wonderful - we had a very nice night... just once. She shared that she had some early experiences with men that were NOT gentle. This was the only time I kinda wondered if environment could play a big role in changing someone's sexual path/identity.

Anyway, to the OP --- I don't see that it's unethical -- if you can tempt someone, gfi! That was my first reaction to the thread title.... However, just HITTING on her would probably be kinda tacky, yea. I mean, putting the moves on her? Whatever that means. Yea, possibly offensive. But seriously, like any friendship, I think it's all about your relationship, and the nature of this person. Can you have a conversation with her about feelings.... at all? Heck, do you ever talk to her about her sexuality? Yours? Maybe if you don't, just try it as a conversation that isn't about anyone specific, or you and her.... just find out about her journey. I had a male gay friend, pretty close friend, and we would discuss things (there was no sexual tension - obviously a lot easier).... I would quiz him about this girl or that girl, and he would just say "I'm gay! No it doesn't do anything for me!" and laugh. But he was a mellow guy - we could talk about anything. Point being -- try and open up the subject matter of your conversations, and you may get your answer soon enough, directly or indirectly. And you know, maybe if you can't talk about that kind of stuff with her, pretty safe to say she's not interested?