Cyborg Ninja

I guess I'm going to seem insensitive here... And it's a dumb question. I'm just wondering, why do some people consider it necessary to use date rape drugs? It's easy to go to a bar and find someone to have a one-night stand with. Even getting a girlfriend: easy. Somebody said to me before that even ugly people get married easily. They find someone like them. It's not hard. I know that a lot of guys will say it isn't easy, though, especially if you're under 20 and shy. Confidence has a lot to do with attraction. So anyway, is using date rape drugs about sex or domination, or what?

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LoganSnake

It's about desperation.

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World's King

Domination.


I'm gonna fuck you no matter what you say. I'm bigger then you. I'm more important then you. Look at my white Yankees hat. Give me a Red Bull.

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Willravel

It's a form of rape, therefore it's about power. They should be castrated.

Psycho Dad

I hate the terminology that this gets. It is not a date rape.

While date rape is bad enough as it is. The use of something to intentionally render someone powerless in order to sexually assault them is premeditated rape.

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blahblah454

I fully agree with willravel on this one. Castrate them

Cyborg Ninja

I'd like to have child molesters castrated most of all. I told some idiot this and he said it equated to genocide!

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Strange Famous

I suppose the standard answer is that rape is a hate crime.

People dont rape women (or occasionally men) because they want sex, they do it out of hate. I guess using drugs is just an especially cowardly way of doing it, but they (rapists) are all cowards.

I wouldnt approve of castration for the same reason I wouldnt approve of the death penalty... if the court makes a mistake and the defendant wins an appeal, you can't really restore the situation.

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Psycho Dad

While I'm OK with these castration ideas, I don't see it as being a fix for rapists or child molesters.

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telekinetic

Date rape drugs are a myth. The only date rape drug actually used is alcohol, and that is self-induced (or at least voluntarily consumed).

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Willravel

Have you ever taken GHB, rohypnol, or ketamine? No? Then who are you to say that these drugs, which are used often and to rape, are a myth?

World's King

A myth?


Do some research. Please.

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Willravel

It's a deterrent, but also a side effect of castration is a drop off in aggression due to the lowering of testosterone (among other things). A less aggressive person is less likely to be involved in a violent crime.

Strange Famous

the deterrent argument doesnt count for much, there is very little evidence of harsher punishments reducing crime - especially crimes which are carried out by deviants in any case.

And I think my point is the one you would have to answer... how to resolve a miscarriage of justice when you've already had the innocent person's nuts off?

Torturing even the worst criminals is not a sign of a good society... the answer is simply to cast them outside of society (ie - in prison) and make them work.

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hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain
without being uncovered."

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Frosstbyte

That's my problem with any form of permanent punishment. Our justice system doesn't really do a great job of finding the truth so much as it's good at assigning blame, which says nothing for the fact that cutting parts off of people is a pretty barbaric practice no matter how you look at it.

I'm also a little surprised that you're so in favor of a consequence like this, will, when you've repeatedly emphasized in other threads that your priority in a justice system would be rehabilitation as opposed to punishment.

Willravel

You should do your homework. Castration in Denmark and Switzerland, has been a great success to battle sexual crimes.
More homework, then. Castrations, using the general term of disabling the testicles, can simply be the disconnection of the vas deferens, the tube connecting the testicles to the ejaculatory duct. That process is easily reversible.
Torture?

Psycho Dad

??? A vasectomy?

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highthief

Agree with Strange on this one - any form of permanent punishment, be it castration for sexual offenders, cutting the hands off thieves, or killing convicted murderers, goes too far when the possibility of making an error is too large.

Here we've had a number of high profile cases where people convicted of murder and sexual crimes have had their convictions overturned when they were subsequently proven not-guilty. Imagine we'd killed or castrated these poor bastards who, it turns out, did nothing wrong.

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Willravel

A vasectomy has the same desired result as castration (lower testosterone, inability to reproduce), without being permanent. It seems a good option, imho.

Psycho Dad

I really doubt a vasectomy is going to do anything to stop a violent or psychopathic person's desire to function in their capacity as a violent or psychopathic person. At least not like a lobotomy anyway.

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hrandani

These are the worst threads in the history of the world. It's like some sort of troll account, but boring.

telekinetic

OK. Here's mine:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/liv...n_page_id=1770

Now, you link me to a study showing what percentages of girls who had sex they regretted had residues of each of the drugs willravel mentioned in their systems, versus just extremely high BAC.

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Willravel

The article doesn't say it doesn't happen. Pleas read the article.

From an arcitle google found in a split second of research:
That's in one year.
http://www.whitehousedrugpolicy.gov/...x.html#arrests

That's 4,920 arrests in 5 years.

World's King

Damn it willravel, I was just about to post that same thing.


Plus the artrical that twistedmosaic posted was strictly about the UK. I'd imagine that there is more date rape in the USA.

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Ustwo

http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/art...?artid=1639044

I have a feeling this was not your intended effect. Always google before posting out of your field

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Willravel

...says the dentist.

Admittedly I'm not as familiar with the biochemical effects of castration, but the drop in aggressive behavior after castration is well documented. That's one of two reasons.
1) Drop off in aggressive behavior
2) Deterrence

Ustwo

I don't think you understand the type of training that goes into becoming a dentist, and you really don't know what my training background is. Lets just say physiology and the endocrine system are fully covered.

But anyways perhaps one shouldn't suggest solutions to problems when they don't know what that solution really does.

The issue with rape isn't the crime but the proof of the crime. Rape is a crime where absolute proof is difficult, and framing relatively easy. As such I wouldn't be for something as life altering as castration, unless part of a voluntary program (tied with an early release as some states were doing and my still do).

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inBOIL

I have to take issue with this. While some rapes are motivated by hate, is it all that difficult to imagine a rape occuring purely out of a desire for sex? Of course there's the disregard for the rights or feelings of another person, but to make the jump from disregard to hatred seems extreme.

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Hyacinthe

I can't link you a percentage no but I do have these actual scientific studies in response

http://www.ncjrs.gov/pdffiles1/jr000243c.pdf

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/en...&dopt=Citation

These next ones come from a medical site so I will post the link and the excerpt since you don't have a membership (membership is free if you would like to read the entirety of the article however)

http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/417778


http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/410558_1
http://www.medscape.com/medline/abstract/16681170
http://www.medscape.com/medline/abstract/14743937
I can get more if you would like

As for just the extremely high BAC - here in Australia if you purposefully get someone drunk in the aims of sleeping with them it's classed as rape and you can be charged for it. To me alcohol is a date rape drug - if you don't get informed consent it's rape.

Also with the vast majority of these 'date rape drugs' they come with amnesianic side effects considering that for a urine test (which is more accurate then a blood test in regards to drug traces) has to be performed with 96hours if first consuming the drug these cases are extremely hard to pin down.

Then again I am somewhat skewed - earlier this year i was out with friends and one of them Joie said her drink tasted a little funny, Joie is very petite, 5'4" maybe 100 - 120lbs, her bf drank it he's over 6ft and probably about 200lbs. We ended the night at the hospitalgetting his stomach pumped after he collapsed, he was our driver for the night so during the time we were out he had coke, 1 light beer and that drink. If it did that to him got to wonder what it would do to her.

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Racnad

I believe the notion that "rape is not about sex, it's about power/hate" was created to help rape victims disassociate the crime from normal sexual relations so that they could resume normal relations with their husbands.

If it's not at all about sex, then why does the guy have an erection? I don't know about other men, but when I'm busy with just about any nonsexual activity, I'm ususally in a flacid state.

I think that some rapists have a screwed up sexuality that makes putting a women in a helpless state and forcing sex on them a big turn-on. It's fucked up, but that's what turns them on.

As for the date-rape drugs, I disagree with the poster that consensual sex is so easy to get. For some men it is, but for men who's appearance & personality doesn't tend to trigger romantic/sexual feelings in women, consnesual sex can be very DIFFICULT to get, and dealing with the dating game and repeated rejections can be very frustrating, and we live in a culture where we're constantly told that if we're not getting laid on a regular basis, then something is wrong with is.

Now, having sex with a woman who is too drunk or drugged to communicate non-consent is rape and perpretrators should go to jail. But getting laid and the knowledge that your penis was in a real vagina and not your hand is what motivates it.

Menoman

I actually almost posted here but didn't want to derail, but now that the topic has come up.

I am one who falls into the "Rape is not ALWAYS about power, and probably not even most of the time" category.

I think it is the case for the majority of serial rapists though, they have some mental instability imo that equates rape = power.

But for someone who date-rapes, or ruffie-rapes, someone, I have a very difficult time believing the nonsense that its about power. It's probably about getting laid and they think they can't/won't be caught.

I think casual sex is extremely easy to get, ridiculously so in some places I've gone. Go to vegas buy some blow and I can guarantee you will get fucked consensually by someone, and she'll probably be fucking hot too. I don't really understand the point behind ruffie/drug/daterape, but I don't think a sane person can understand it. The people who do that probably function 100% but have some slight mental inability when it comes to sexual nature.

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analog

I'm not trying to argue that it doesn't happen, but I must point out that none of that info proves anything about the use of those drugs in rape.

The first one, MDMA, is ecstasy. Ecstasy is a commonly used drug in social contexts. Just because a woman went to a party, had ecstasy, and later had sex she didn't consent to, doesn't mean she was date-raped with it. It's exceedingly more likely that she'd taken the drug anyway, by choice, and later on ended up having sex without real consent, because she was high on ecstasy. This is very much like a girl drinking alcohol all night and then having sex- just because she was impaired, and someone had sex with her, doesn't mean the person who had sex with her "dosed" her in order to "date rape" her. Ecstasy is used a great deal recreationally, and is not like rohypnol, which is much more (almost exclusively) used for the amnesiac effects, as well as sedative.

GHB is also a very common rave/dance/party drug. So again, it's incredibly more likely that it was taken knowingly and the victim later on had sex she couldn't consent to.

Don't forget, these amnesiac drugs also wipe some of your memory from just prior to taking the drug, so the victim may not even remember how they got it- including if someone offered it by name (hey, want some GHB?), and she took it willingly, or even asked for it. She may not remember that. If you don't remember asking for it, and you had sex you didn't mean to have, are you more likely to convince yourself you were slipped a drug, or asked for the drug? The simplest explanation is usually the correct one.

I have a friend who frequently laments her hangovers, complaining that she does not remember continuing to buy drinks, and always claims "when I get drunk, I stop drinking". Well, that's a load of nonsense because I've seen her lots of times downtown towards the end of the night, trashed out of her mind and partying it up, talking happily about how much booze she'd consumed thus far. A few times, I've taken her home because she didn't seem to have any idea who the guy on her arm was, and he couldn't give me any information about her for me to assume he actually knew her more than "impaired chick who I can take advantage of later". I've distanced myself from her because as much as I've tried to help, she continues to do this, and I don't want to be around if something truly bad ever happens to her as a result. In other words, I can't stand by and watch her destroy herself.

As for rohypnol and ketamine, I'll grant that they have little "social drug" value and are mostly used as sedative/amnesiacs. It's entirely possible that most of those cases are, in fact, true "date rape" cases.

Not sure why you posted the arrest rates, since it has nothing to do with rape- maybe you were just showing how relatively bountiful they are in quantity.

Plan9

Wow, some of these responses scare me.

Rape is about power, not sex.

Getting girls is about as easy as dancing:

Some people do it naturally. Some people fail after years of trying.

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Menoman

I can buy the second part I guess, though I really don't know any guys who can't get laid, Hell my buddy is ugly as shit, he's just... ugly lol. Even he nails some fat chicks at least once every couple months. I'll assume they exist and I've not met them.

The former though, I don't buy it. I think seriel rapists do it for power. The majority of the rest, it's not for power, it's about fucking, especially the case for date-rape and drug-rape. Though when it turns to seriel rape I'm sure its power.

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Willravel

Anyone speaking to a real rate of date rape drugs is lying or has poor reference material. No one really knows the rate at which date rape drugs are used. The point, though, is that they are used. As they are used, the argument that they are not used is flawed.

Ustwo, vasectomy has been repeatedly linked to a drop in aggressive behavior. While physiology and the endocrine system are fully covered in your training, I doubt you have extensive training in psychology (judging by not just posts in this thread but posts over the years). The psychological effects of castration are well documented.

I'll admit my understanding of biological sciences are limited. I took several of the classes, but they were not the focus of my major. Of the limited knowledge I did get from human biology, I specifically remember (and have subsequently verified) that the testicles produce male sex hormones, such as testosterone. While this is regulated by the pituitary, the production happens mainly in two places: the reproductive organs and the adrenal glands. Of course that subsequent research, into my old (5 year old?) textbook, tells me that the adrenal glands produce very little testosterone and that the vast majority of the steroid hormone is produced in the (drum-roll please...) testicles. So what would happen if that organ were to be disconnected?

Punk.of.Ages

I'm no expert, but every person with a vasectomy that I've ever talked to (which is a strangely high number) tells me that afterwards they feel no different at all. No lowered libido. No lowered sense of masculinity. No lowered tempers. Nothing different whatsoever, and their doctors told them they shouldn't feel any different. But like I said, I'm no expert. Just heresy.

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Martian

Testosterone is carried in the bloodstream and not via the vas deferens. The testes cannot be disconnected from the circulatory system or they would become necrotic and likely lead to infection. Thus, a vasectomy will not affect testosterone levels and has value only as a contraceptive procedure.

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Menoman

There is a massive difference between castration and vasectomy -_-

No dude would get a castration unless they were freaky deaky

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Cyborg Ninja

This thread exploded and so I am unable to read all responses.

Analog: I don't know if anyone who uses rohypnol recreationally, but I do know many who have at least tried ketamine. Were you just judging it based on your personal experience and if it's worth taking to trip?

Others: I think many people are confused by the rape = power trip concept. This is not meant to be a black and white concept. One can use their physical power to subdue a woman and rape her, and be naturally aroused by her, and get a rush from dominating her. But would this person commit this crime if he were just a horny, lonely guy? Do you realize how many rapists and pedophiles out there have girlfriends or wives? It's startling. As for younger guys who have raped a woman: I also think it is about domination and selfishness. The rapist doesn't care about the woman and is unable to empathize with her position. He sees himself as superior to her. And once again, it is fairly easy to get laid, and I'm sorry to all the awkward teenage boys out there who think otherwise—but it's true. Rapists are hardly the only ones out there who desire sex. They're just the only ones who cross the line, believing they are powerful and invincible, and rape someone.

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Nimetic

I think it's probably a bit of both - and that it varies with the perpetrator (not all brains are the same). But that's a total guess.

And before anyone one jumps up and down. Yes it is a crime. Yes it is immoral. No I don't think castration makes sense. If you cut a criminal - you are likely to turn them into an angrier criminal IMHO.

I would consider chemical castration (ie reversible non-punitive) for repeat offenders. Maybe they could have the option of earlier release under those circumstances vs later release without it - so that it became a choice made as part of rehabilitation.