It's already been said, by people wiser than me. Off the top of my head, Mixed and Pig said it best. Xepherys and the rest of you using similar lines of argument... it's NOT about the guy masturbating while *thinking* of her friends. It's not even about porn in general. I, for one, am fine with both of those actions, and see them as very normal.

It's about the PICTURES OF HER FRIENDS. The fact that he took them, saved them, and pulls them up specifically when he wants to masturbate... would give me very, very serious pause in terms of deciding to continue the relationship. Total lack of consideration. And I don't care what gender you are... you can think about whoever you want when you masturbate, I know I do (and I don't give a rats ass who my husband is thinking about)... but the fucking pictures, are just beyond any reasonable modicum of courtesy and respect towards your significant other.

Ktspktsp and I were discussing this last night and he agrees, he would be upset if I was masturbating using pics of his best friends in Speedos, definitely... and he understands why I would be upset if he was doing the same. It's just plain inconsiderate. Discuss it first, before he even "used" the pictures for the first time... then go from there. That's what develops trust in a relationship. Not this kind of behavior, not by a long shot.

Yay, for your team. :rolleyes:

I rest my case.

Masturbation, apparently, is a very sticky issue for some folks in more ways than one.

Ever fantasized about someone else while having sex with your SO?

What if they were pictures of her friends but he didn't know who they were (for argument's sake - obviously not really the case here)? What if he downloaded them off TFP from the Titty Board?

How would it change things if the girl is a celebrity and he's got pictures of her friends from the tabloids?

What if she's got a bunch of porn star friends who's pictures are all over the internet? What if they're Craigslist prostitutes who regularly turn tricks with guys he knows?

These are all degrees of the same issue. Some are degrees of separation and some are acceptance.

My first post-collegiate relationship was with a bisexual sorority girl that thought a bunch of her friends were hot. We'd have mutual masturbation sessions with her sorority yearbook discussing who and how we'd seduce into a 3-way.

I completely agree that this is odd and that this guy should probably be on double-secret probation at best as far as this relationship is concerned, but I also think part of the problem with reaching a consensus comes from the fact that to whom and when guys jerk off is a moving target. For instance, is David Arquette, who's married to Courtney Cox, allowed to fantasize about being with Jennifer Aniston while he's having sex with Courtney? What about when he's jerking off? Can he use red carpet pictures? Clips from The Good Girl?

I still don't see the difference between searching the internet for random pictures of women to jack off to and searching the internet for pictures of your friends to jack off to. As hard as I try, I just can't think of anything 'inconsiderate' about it (Unless, of course, you're stating that it's not okay to jack off to people whom you know which still doesn't make much sense to me).

You da man.

I don't have time to read all of these posts, I only made it as far as the above.

By and by, if the rest of the relationship is good, I would recommend that you put it behind you. If he's a good guy, then cut him a break.

I really doubt too many men would dump a woman if she was doing the same.

Men are like that. We fantasize about all kinds of wierd shit all the time. We want to cum on your face, we want to be tied up and have you step on our bags in high heels. We want you to wear a strapon and fuck us in the ass, and give us a golden shower. We want to fuck your sister, your friends, your mother even (if she was hot). And that's on a quiet day.

If he's a good guy and treats you well and you are happy most of the time, you'd be making a mistake dealing him the nine of spades.

If you are going to continue to bust his balls about this for years to come, then he might be wise to get the hell out rather than listen to it forever.

You've made your point, now let it go and see how things go.

What were you doing rooting through his computer anyway?

More to the point, I doubt he went to their myspace pages thinking "I wonder if there are pictures here that I can masturbate to?" He likely went to their myspace pages, saw the pictures, thought "gee, that one turns me on," and then saved them. I think a lot of people in this thread are attributing a malice aforethought that just isn't (likely) there.

Isn't it malice aforethought ?

sorry, my wife is gonna be a lawyer :)

Wow, the gender divide is really interesting on this thread. Pretty fascinating. I haven't read the whole thread yet, so I don't know if this has been posted. But here's a slightly-not-on-topic point I would like to make.

Masturbating to pictures of people can create an attachment to those people. This is not much of a problem with porn (since the women are basically pictures there), but can be an issue when you know and interact with those women. Since you know them as 3-d people, the more you think and fantasize about them, the more you fall for them. I'm not saying you have to prevent yourself from fantasizing about anybody when you're in a relationship, but you should be careful not to get yourself too tempted... It's not healthy for your relationship, and it's not really about how great the other person is but rather how much you allow yourself to build them up in your head.

I remember a post in the past from Ratbastid (the truth, he speaks) where he said that to stop feeling attached to an ex-gf, he stopped fantasizing about her when masturbating, and that helped a lot. Something about bonding chemicals being released when orgasming.

Again, nothing wrong with fantasizing or masturbating, but it's good to be careful about unnecessary attachments. That goes for friends, friends of the GF, co-workers etc... Everything in moderation! :)

indeed. not exactly a phrase I use frequently :p thanks for letting me know.

What? No Donkey Punch? No Angry Pirate? No Dirty Sanchez???

Seriously though, not to tu quoque, but why search for stuff? I mean do you really want to know the answer to those questions? Seems like one makes their own drama.

Still even if they have access to this 3D person, and even if that sexy friend makes advances towards him, isn't his response still supposed to be to decline action to sticking it in or cavorting and canoodling with them?

I'd be more than happy to jump all over some of the lady friends I have or even Skogafoss' friends but the buck stops at the thought. The moment it becomes action is where there is a problem.

IMO there are things that both guys and girls can draw from this thread to help us out.

Girls:

Men are horny fuckers who think about banging everyone. You shouldn't be surprised to find out that your SO thinks about your best friend when you two are having sex or when he's jerking off.

Guys:

Most girls just aren't comfortable with the fact that we want to bang their friends (even if we wouldn't actually do it). Therefore, we need to be discrete about it and not do stupid things like d/l pics of your chick's friends and not hide them REALLY well.

I try not to laugh whenever I hear this. You mean to tell me that certain men will cry while watching a football game, but they are like machines when it comes to an intimate act that invariably ends in a kind of euphoria?

Sex in humans in inherently emotional; it's how we are hardwired. It makes us happy. It bonds us. It emboldens us. It makes us feel guilty. It makes us afraid. We have been known to kill over it. I sincerely doubt you can turn this off simply because you are flying solo.

I guess in all of this it all boils down to the fact that people have to communicate and find the person that is right for them. Thankfully, me and my wife can differenciate the difference between pure fantasy and masturbation and sex with emotions.

Id slightly disagree. Why do you think so many men can actively look for a one-night stand? And that's far more intimate than rubbing one out. I'd say that most men, once the clean up is over, don't ever think about the masturbatory experience ever again. At least until the next time they rub one out.

I would say thats why you ladies are never going to see our point on this one.

If you can't understand that is how it really is, you won't understand why this really isn't a big deal to a guy.

Trust me though, it goes both ways, if I had to make beating off an emotional experience I would be doing it about once a month.

i can see why she is upset. I think it was pretty dumb to save the pictures to his porn folder. Not sure i would do something like that, sure i might venture to the persons pics online and maybe tug one off.

But saving them to my computer? nope, not sure why either just because i guess. If this guy knows his girlfriend has self esteem issues double douche bag.



I put the porn right out in the open on the desktop of my computer, let her see it. heck i'll even tag it and leave a message saying something naught.

To further the "what does masturbation mean to men" threadjack, I have to third (fourth, fifth?) the sentiments by others who have noted that it's really not an emotional experience for a guy. Many guys (myself certainly included) just feel an impetus to do it, and often. I can't even imagine thinking of masturbation as being as emotional an experience as sex. It's just something we do and we dont' spend any time thinking about it. It's a rush and then it's over.

That being said, I think that downloading pictures off myspace and etc. is a bit over the line than I think is appropriate. But I can all but assure you that it's not an emotional event for the guy.

Thank you for agreeing to disagree. Men do one-night stands because they desire intimacy but are afraid of (or are otherwise opposed to) long-term commitments. This goes back to my previous post about emotional responses to sexual experiences. Masturbatory experiences are seldom memorable because they are numerous for many of us. That doesn't mean they aren't influenced by emotions. (Continue reading, if you will.)

So why do we do it nearly everyday? Are you're saying you don't get any pleasure from it?

And... how would you explain that "rush"? Do you enjoy it? Does it make you happy and put you in a good mood? We are one of the few animals who enjoy sex for pleasure. Our sexual drives are linked to our emotional being...they are closely related if not being part of the same system. The thing about emotions is that we don't think about them; that would be counterintuitive. I think the problem here is that most men deny their emotional states. The stereotype that men don't think things through...do you think that's because of an absence of reason? Maybe. But I think it is because of emotional states that cloud reason, rather. Want to know what I'm talking about? Read some articles on depression in men as a start. Pretty scary, actually. I can direct you to some, if you like.

Back to the OP, this is why there is such a problem. The fact that her boyfriend "cranked it up a notch" by having actual photos of her friends is a really hurtful thing to do. It is that step closer to a form of direct desire for those women. How does he handle himself when he's around them after having masturbated to them using their realistic likenesses? Would it also be okay if they were photographs of her mother? His mother? They aren't "just photos." You shouldn't oversimplify.

[BTW, all those puns really were unintentional. Consciously speaking anyway.]

Baraka_Guru when I take over the world and form my round table of rulers, you're on the table. Actually, fuck that, you are the table. The rest of us will just sit around an listen.

I'm obviously not going to understand how you are attaching emotion to a simple beat off session.

It's a physical relief, 99% of the time you forget it 5 minutes later and will never, ever remember that experience for the rest of your life.

I can honestly remember like 5 times I've beat off, multiply that by about 900 and thats how many times in my life I've probably done it.

That doesn't sound like an emotional experience to me.

I think you are putting way too much significance on pulling on your cock for 10 minutes.

Because it feels good? Why do we eat the foods we like? coz they taste good.

The rush he means is blowing your load, not like a rollercoaster 'rush'. Its done and you move on.

Whether he d/l those pictures or not, he is still beating off thinking of those people. Has she noticed anything funny about his activity around them before now? Probably not, because even if it was the first time meeting these girls, within 10 seconds he figured out if he'd fuck them or not, and he thought about what they looked like naked in the first 15 seconds. If he thought they were hot.

The whole point of what I started saying like 2 pages ago, is its going to happen anyway, there isn't going to be an altered personality around these people because the 2 things you are talking about 1) he beats off to those peoples pics or 2) he beats off to these people in his head... have the exact same ending.

Him beating off, to those people.

Baraka, I must vehemently disagree. As a man raised by a single mother, I'm more in touch with my feelings than many of my female friends. I have no problems wearing my emotions on my sleeve, and occasionally do just that. However, relating masturbation to emotion, because it feels good, is not correlational.

People eat chocolate because it tastes good and makes them happy. Chocolate consumption, therefore, must be emotionally driven. Meh! Seriously? I play video games becuase they entertain me. I am not emotionally driven, however, to do so. It's instinctive, far below the level even of emotion, to please yourself. it's the rawest form of humanism. Instinct != emotion.

On a similar note, men do not (generally) have one night stands due to a combination of commitment-phobia and need for intimacy. See my point above. There are two reasons for one night stands. First, is simply sexual gratification. Perhaps some are phobic of commitment, perhaps some are not. At college age, when one night stands are most likely to occur, many people, females included, do not DESIRE a commitment. It's not a phobia, it's a reasonable and specific decision against it. This does not, however, preempt any carnal desire. The second reason for one night stands is conquest. This, actually, can be an emotional event, though in much the opposite way that you suppose is needed. In such a conquest a man desires to bolster his value among peers and friends. it isn't a self-worth issue, either, as many women seem to believe. If a guy feels a lack of self-worth, he isn't terribly likely to pursue such an event, but rather shy away from it. It is only an emotional situation insomuch as the man desires to feel admired by his peers.

It's not a stereotype, per se, either. Surely not all men are like this, just as all women are not bleeding heart sobfests. Perhaps I should say it IS a stereotype, but is so for a reason. It's not just American men either, or really even "western" men. It's just men. It's how we think, operate, move and motivate ourselves. A relationship is very emotional. Sex, however, does not need be and masturbation is pretty much never so.

It's one thing to fantasize about your SO's friends, but it's another to deliberately look up their myspace profiles, download the image and save it into your porn folder for later use. That's crossing the line for some people, especially for those in a young relationship where trust is still being established.

I know my hubby sometimes thinks about other girls when he masturbates. Duh. I occasionally think of other guys when I get off. I'm pretty sure he's masturbated to thoughts of my friends, and I really don't care because I trust him. I know he's not going to act on those fantasies which involve other women, just like I'm not going to act on my fantasies involving other men. I'm very glad to have found a man that I can trust so completely :)

A friend of mine suggested that I should try pornography so that I could maybe see his "point of view." ... Well, I took her advice and I'm slightly beginning to understand how there is a difference between porn and intimacy. Porn is porn and sex with my SO is a way more different experience. I felt like I needed to do some more sexual research so I asked my bf if we could video tape us having sex. After watching it, I felt so relieved because WOW I am so damn sexy! :lol: and WOW porn and masturbation is nothing compared to this! After much consideration and after reading everyone's different opinions, I feel a lot better about myself and my relationship with my bf. I still think that downloading the pics and saving them is unappropriate, as MixedMedia has mentioned --this is about propriety. Ultimately, I have more room for forgiveness in this situation.

As for everyone wondering how I was looking through his porn...
Well, we're mac users and macs(if any are familiar with macs) always log your most recently opened programs and files. That one day I closed a window of notes that I needed again and when I went to the recently opened tab, I noticed the bunch of picture files. I guess you can wiggle your finger at me from this point because I was curious as to why he had pics of this girl I'm friends with. I used the Sherlock program to find where these pictures came from and surely enough it was in the hidden porn folder, and surprisingly there were more pictures of more friends............. and the rest is history.

If you watch porn and want to be discreet, never use a mac.

My lessons learned: 1. don't be nosy. 2. masturbation is a separate entity. 3. propriety (the word is now TATTOOed in my head).

*stands up and claps*

I have to say... I'm fucking amazed. Someone took the time to open up their mind, got themselves a little practical education, and their mind was changed- and thus their situation changed for the better.

I am so proud... thank you, burtsbees, for setting such a high standard and awesome example. Things can be reasoned out. Opinions can change when we take the time to really explore the issue at hand, and not just parrot the same ideas over and over.

And hell, now you've got an even healthier sex life, stronger bond, AND increased self-confidence because of it! Your boyfriend is a lucky guy to have a woman who cares enough to root out an issue, take the necessary steps to really evaluate what's going on, and then make positive movement to not just fix, but strengthen your relationship.

Awesome. Just awesome.

So uhhh.....

About that orgy WK was talking about........

analog x 2

Analog: +5 Cool Points

...

I would argue that hardcore heroin addicts don't really enjoy heroin anymore... they just need it to feel normal. Keep the chemicals balanced.

They do it because it sustains their particle level of misery. They do it because it puts them back to zero. Pain and pleasure become relative.

Some guys don't enjoy beating off anymore just like some guys don't enjoy really coffee in the morning... but if they don't have it they're ultra-crabby.

Just because we do something of our own volition in private doesn't mean we really enjoy it.

/bullshit

...

After careful deliberation with my panel of experts? Turns out Baraka is a genius.

I suppose we'd all be in that category if we actually thought things out more.

Menoman, I'm not going to give a lecture; don't worry. All I wanted to point out was that if you're doing things because they feel good or they otherwise bring us pleasure, emotions are likely involved. What else would it be?

I was raised by a married mother and have five siblings (three of which are sisters) all living in the same house, so I too am accustomed to emotions.

Actually, yes. Food is an interesting thing, especially when you compare humans to other animals. We have a varied diet for several reasons, many of which are related to our physiology: a long juvenile stage and our unusually large brain, for example. However, as a result of a large and complex brain, much of what we eat is also related to less essential things, such as pleasure. We don't eat chocolate for its nutritional worth, because let's face it, oatmeal and baked beans are far more valuable. We eat chocolate because it is pleasing. It is an experience that engages our senses. The smell and taste of it is more intense and pleasurable than many other foods, despite its shortcomings. Why else would we eat it other than the fact it tastes delightful. Our desire for this is emotionally, not logically, driven. If we thought it through, we wouldn't eat chocolate as much. It's high in fat and sugar and has nearly no valuable nutrients outside of some trace vitamins and a hint of calcium if it's milk chocolate.

Sorry, I'm not entirely sure what you mean. You aren't emotionally driven to engage in a pleasurable experience, it's more of an instinctual thing? Raw humanism is instinctual and equals emotion? Doesn't this mean that you are indeed emotionally driven? I do agree with this so far. I would say emotions are in our very nature. Reason only kicks in once we take the time to contemplate our emotional reactions to things.

I didn't suggest it was always about commitment-phobia, although it is often the case. Sexual gratification is certainly a motive. Not particularly caring for a commitment does not negate the emotions that may take place while seeking sexual satisfaction with someone you find beautiful.

So it is emotionally driven, then? I agree with that. Seeking value and acceptance among your friends can get your emotions running high, especially if you get to tell them you've "nailed that hot chick" you've all been drooling over. This isn't unlike emotions that occur while watching or playing sports.

[BTW, I appreciate your compliments MrFriendly and Crompsin, despite your indulgence in hyperbole. You're making me blush. Crap. Am I being emotional here?]

[And, burtsbees, good to hear about your positive experiences.]

nevermind.

Congratulations, burtsbees!

Now we can all get back to sexy talk. :lol:

Just find a sexy friend of his.....find his facebook/myspace when your husband/bf/parents aren't/isn't home and return the favor. You don't have to tell him that you did it, the feeling of "revenge" makes u feel more rebellious inside when only you know.

Revenge is a bad idea.

Unless you get paid in small unmarked bills for it.

Uh, well, she came through this very well so far (Admirably so!) as per analogs post. I don't think this was ever about revenge, and actually, revenge is kind of counter-intuitive to the resolution she was seeking. Just thought I'd point that out.

And congratulations burtsbees, you are a better person that most, for simply making the effort, regardless of the results, which also were for the better (from the sounds of it).

I'm sure I speak for everyone when I say we are happy for you.

I agree with you here... clearly, this is why ktspktsp and I are such a good match! :lol: We agree very much about this kind of thing. However... Sorry, but I find this to be rather pretentious. I don't view it as being somehow "enlightened" to have a different opinion on this matter... as you said, it's a matter of finding a person who's "right" for you. If you and your wife agree about the limits of your fantasy/masturbation/sex with emotions, great! I'd venture to say that my husband and I do, too... we just have different ideas from you and your wife. It's just that to us, masturbating to pictures of our close friends would constitute a kind of sex with emotions/attachment. And that is not cool with either of us. That's all.

After reading it again just now, I didn't mean to come across as pretentious. Basically, all I meant was that me and the wife have the same views on sexuality and masturbation (for the most part) and this sort of thing does not bother us and I'm thankful for that because it saves me a ton of grief heh.

This is why communication is such a vital part of any relationship.

I'm also pleased with the report that was handed down by burtsbees and applaud her for her willingness to look at both sides of the issue and find a new exciting way to enjoy sex :)

That's bad form. I'd say it's inappropriate.

Here, here... (or is it, "Hear, hear?" I never know :shy: ). Hey, I'm also quite thankful that my husband and I agree on this issue, because it saves both of us a ton of grief! :lol:

And yes, commendations to burtsbees for taking the time to think through the issue and allow it to deepen her relationship with her bf. In the end, if it leads to better communication and more trust between you two, then that's the best outcome of the whole thing. And hey, you started one hell of a discussion on TFP! (Which is almost always a good thing.) :)

I feel like my contribution here is almost superfluous, as it would seem that all parties have more or less come to a consensus. Regardless, I'll put it out there.

I am not a male apologist. In fact, I'm not any sort of apologist; I am, indeed, just a male. I like things that make lots of noise, things that go fast, boobs, and any combination of the three. And I will stand up and admit that yes, I have masturbated to fantasies of female friends and even ones who were already spoken for. It's not something that I'd be particularly likely to share (thanks to that great word that's already been thrown into this, propriety,) but it definitely does happen. I've done it while in a relationship and before I realized that fantasy is in fact part of a healthy libido I thought something was terribly wrong with me because of it. It also definitely does not affect my friendship. Some of my female friends are hot. When I'm horny, sometimes I think about what it would be like. I can differentiate between that fantasy and my actual relationship with these people. I've never used visual aids for this, but I think it's probably more due to a lack of availability than anything else; if I had pictures of my hot friends looking sexy, I might be tempted to use them for these purposes. Again, these are women who I have strictly platonic relationships; women who, given the opportunity, I probably would not fuck. I can differentiate between the fantasy and the real world on that score.

I do not exonerate this fellow, nor do I condemn him; I think we can be a little more moderate in our responses. This is not a black and white issue; after all, his sin was not in the deed but in the (lack of) thought. I seriously suspect that the situation was as has been described - dude found pictures, was in the mood, thought 'wow, that's hot.' Who it was didn't likely have much bearing on the thought process.

What was wrong about it was that he didn't take her feelings into account. Lucky for all involved, both parties in this relationship seem to have learned from the experience and everything worked out for the better. This is ideally how these things should work out. Everybody makes mistakes and every couple fights. The ones that succeed are the ones who can find a mechanism to avoid repetition of their mistakes. Communication is generally what works.

I have previously expressed the opinion that ratbastid is to be heeded on issues like this and I find myself wanting to reiterate that now. The issue here is not his action, as I think the varied responses here indicate. The issue, then, would be her reaction. I don't mean to say that her reaction was wrong, just that therein lies the conflict. A profitable line of inquiry, then, would be to figure out why that was her reaction and ideally come to a consensus as a couple on how to avoid that reaction in the future. And yes, insecurities are an individual problems. There's a reason it's called your baggage and not just baggage. Other people can aggravate or magnify or expose your issues, but they're still yours to deal with and the bottom line is that blaming them on others will not help you heal. Nor can others heal you. It's something you must do for yourself, although a bit of guidance rarely goes amiss.

Apologies if the above is disjointed. These are my 9 am Saturday morning, pre-coffee musings.

And I guess that's the extent of my opinion. All that remains is to congratulate burtsbees on being able to take what was a negative event, explore it, discuss it and turn it into a source of strength. This is the ideal way to handle these things and I applaud the maturity and self-awareness that went into that.