Another perspective on Open Marriage/Poly... - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

RenaissanceII · 06-16-2007, 09:53 AM

Knowing that there are several practitioners in our merry little band here @TFP who are active in Polyamory/Open Marriage, Here is another perspective I stumbled across.....

(NSFW)
http://www.tangomag.com/tabid/89/art...-Marriage.aspx

In being open to her true nature and sharing her true self with her husband and lovers, and realizing the potential pitfalls, that shows to me a remarkable sense of maturity and openness, worthy of emulation on my part.

In closing (for now) the perfect quote, IMHO, Roslind Russell from "Auntie Mame"
"Life is a banquet, and some poor suckers are still starving to death."

Glad I finally made it to the banquet HERE!

Comments?

*edited for commentary and reflections

Cynthetiq · 06-16-2007, 09:56 AM

Quote:

I WAS 17 WHEN my sexual education began.

“You are responsible for your own orgasm,” my boyfriend told me. He was the guy I lost my virginity to, the guy I had my first orgasm with, and the guy whose words would one day become my mantra: I am responsible for my own orgasm. I believe that literally and figuratively. In bed, I play an active role in getting what I want. But I also take charge of getting what I want throughout my sexual life. That’s why, along with a husband I adore, I have lovers. My husband and I have an open marriage. I know it may sound decadent, or like a throwback to the “free love” of the ’60s. But really, for all the hype, “open marriage” is just one of many ways to negotiate love and sex and marriage. We haven’t been doing it that long, but it now seems so obvious. Like, “Why on earth didn’t we think of this before?”

I have always liked sex. I mean really, really liked sex. I have been accused, in fact, of “thinking like a man.” That is, of seeing sex as something wholly separate from love. When my husband and I first started dating, it was obvious even then that our drives were quite different. As much as he enjoyed sex, he didn’t need or want it as often as I did. But I fell so madly in love with him, I figured it didn’t matter.

I was terribly wrong.

Three years into our marriage, I began to feel itchy. So I had an affair. She was beautiful, an artist I met through a mutual friend. I deliberately chose to have an affair with a woman, rationalizing that it wasn’t as bad as sleeping with another man. (Simply by virtue of his gender, my husband never could be for me what she could be.)

She wasn’t the first woman I’d been with. When my husband and I began dating, I told him that I was bisexual. “I don’t care who you were with before,” he told me. “But once it’s just you and me, it’s just you and me.” And that’s why—as lovely and sweet as my affair with Artist Girl was—it was awful, too. I felt sick about lying to my husband, sick about wanting to be with her, sick for not just calling it off—or avoiding it in the first place.

I thought hard about how I had gotten there. At first, I figured that my being with her really was about my bisexuality, about a part of me that I simply couldn’t brush aside. But the more I thought about it, the more I realized that wasn’t true: It was about wanting more sex than my husband could offer, and sex different from that which any one person could provide.

My relationship with Artist Girl ended very, very badly. One night while in bed with her husband, she told him about us, foolishly thinking it would “turn him on.” It didn’t. He was furious and threatened to tell my husband. I knew I had to tell him myself. When I confessed, he was crushed, more because I had lied to him than because I had slept with her. I cried and cried, wondering if I had destroyed my marriage, if he would leave me, but also wondering if I would ever be happy, ever be sexually satisfied, ever find a way to make this work.

We didn’t talk about it much for several years. He couldn’t. I would ask him once in a while if he was “OK,” and he would tell me he was fine. Eventually, I believed him. I was keeping my nose clean, and we were bumping along—hitting rough patches, but bumping along. We had an adequate sex life; probably pretty darn good by some standards. Still, there were always things I wanted that I simply couldn’t get from him.

“I want you to talk dirty to me,” I told him. “To tie me up. To attack me in the middle of the day on the kitchen floor.”

“I can’t, baby,” he’d say, drawing me into his arms. “I love you.”

And slowly I began to figure it out. For my husband, sex with me was about loving me. And loving me was about caring for and respecting me. Although there are people who can manage that duality (or plurality), my husband simply couldn’t. And I wasn’t sure he should have to. But I also wasn’t sure that I should have to go without.

One day, on a whim, really, I asked my husband about a longtime friend of mine. She had once been a grad student at the university where I taught. I had helped her get through research papers, exams, and first-time teaching assignments. She spent a lot of long nights and weekend afternoons at our house during those two years, and we became close friends. Even after finishing her degree, she still spent a lot of time at the house.

“Have you ever thought about sleeping with her?” I asked him.

“No,” he said. My husband has no poker face. “OK, yes, but ...”

“But what?” I asked.

“Well, first of all, she’d never want to sleep with me. She’s 10 years younger than I am. And second, I don’t want to be with anyone else.”

“Really?” I asked.

“Well,” he said, “I mean, I don’t need to.”

“But do you want to?” I didn’t need him to answer me. It was clear that, in his head, he was already there.

“She’s hot,” he said.

“I know,” I laughed. “So ... ?”

“So, of course I’d like to sleep with her. But what about you?”

“Of course,” I replied. “I’d like to sleep with her too, silly.”

“That’s not what I meant,” he said.

“I know. I know. So ... ?”
“So, bring it on,” he teased.

“She’s dying to sleep with you, you know.”

It was true—I knew she was interested. We’d joked about it plenty of times before. “When are you going to let me at that hot husband of yours?” she’d ask me. “Whenever you like,” I’d tell her. I started teasing my husband about it every now and then. Sometimes when we’d have sex I’d talk about her being there. It always It was about wanting more sex than my husband could offer, and sex different from that which any one person could provide. pushed him over the edge.

Finally, I decided it was time.

“Let’s do it,” I said to her one night when we were at my house, watching yet another terrible, made-for-TV movie. She knew exactly what I was talking about.

“You sure?” she asked.

“Are you?” I asked back.

“Yeah,” she said. “As long as you’re positive it won’t mess us up.”

“I don’t think it will,” I said. “But you know I can’t promise that.”

“I know,” she said. “But promise me anyway.”

“OK,” I told her. “I promise.”

A few hours later, my husband came home. He slid onto the couch next to me, putting his hand on my right thigh, under the throw blanket. Her hand was already on my left. A few seconds later, I felt their hands accidentally touch, and I saw them look at one another. I’m pretty sure that was the exact moment my husband realized what was going on.

“I’m beat,” he said a short while later. “I’m going to bed.”

“We’ll be up soon,” I said. He kissed me, and began to walk away.

“What about me?” she asked. He looked at me, and then kissed her, long and hard. Laughing, he shook his head.

“You girls,” he said, as he headed upstairs. When the movie ended, we followed. We slipped into bed with my husband as if we’d done it a hundred times before, one on either side of him.

Everything that followed felt equally natural.

It was amazing to watch them together. It was hot, but it was also very sweet. She was so lost in him and he in her. I was able to see him as a human being, if you know what I mean. Not as my husband or my daughter’s father, but as a man, a sexual being, a person who wants to be wanted, who needs to be wanted.

And I know that watching her and me together was an incredible experience for him as well. She even taught him how to give me a G-spot orgasm, a feat that he had never managed. It sounds so deviant, I know. But it was charming, really. He held her long hair in his hands and watched her. He also stole looks at me. “I love you,” he mouthed. “I love you, too,” I somehow managed. And when I came, I couldn’t help but notice the glances the two of them exchanged. “Not bad,” his seemed to say. “See, I could teach you a thing or two,” hers seemed to imply. It was weird. But it was also, well, normal.

MY HUSBAND AND I had a six-month affair with my close friend. The three of us had sex. He and she had sex. She and I had sex. And, of course, he and I continued to have sex, just the two of us. The arrangement eventually faded out, and we all slipped back into our previous relationships. But my marriage was forever changed. Our experience with her was the catalyst that led us to explore open marriage.

It’s been interesting and hard and wonderful and confusing. It has led to some terribly sad moments and some incredibly joyful ones. The sad ones always stem from some combination of ego, insecurity, and lack of communication. The wonderful ones result from love and trust and understanding. But really, it’s blindingly simple. We give each other what we need, including freedom and space. We respect one another. And we are self-aware enough to know that we’re interested in, and capable of, exploring sex, whatever that means for us and despite what it may mean for anyone else. (That is, of course, anyone not sexually involved with us.) It has brought my husband and me closer than I ever imagined possible.

We communicate in ways I never dreamed of, staying up late at night talking about the nature of monogamy, of sexuality, of marriage, and of life in general. I suppose open marriage works for us for precisely that reason: because we talk about it, because it has opened us to one another. The learning curve certainly has been steep. We have absolutely, positively no models for what we’re doing. We’re really just the average couple next door. Really. We’ve just found that “owning” each other sexually doesn’t help our marriage.

It only hurts it.

It is amazing, though, how much trouble people have with open marriage. One person told me how sad he is that I need “conquests” and need others to find me sexually attractive to be satisfied, and that he hopes that one day I’ll find enough success elsewhere to overcome that. Another person told me she thinks I’m a lesbian who doesn’t want to give up the creature comforts my marriage provides. Still another said she’s scared for me and my relationship if I need such “fireworks.” But each of these statements said more about the speaker than about me.

The truth is I’m just like everyone else. I’m just trying to figure out all of this life stuff. It’s hard. There’s this one plan we’re all supposed to follow, this heterosexual, monogamous, child-rearing, one-size-fits-all model that we’re all supposed to goose-step into line with. But I can’t. In fact, I have a responsibility not to. I am responsible for my own orgasm—and my own happiness. And I don’t need other people to like me or to approve, and I don’t need others to live in the same way I do. I just need to do what I need to do, without hurting myself or others. For right now, at least, that means having sexual relationships outside of my marriage.

My husband hasn’t pursued anyone since my friend. He says he’s too shy to pick up girls, and, really, he doesn’t feel the need. I can sometimes tell that the fact that I do hurts him. “Intellectually,” he explains, “I totally get it. But sometimes, emotionally, it’s hard.”

“I know,” I tell him. “Do you need me to stop?”

“No,” he says. “I’m not that guy. But you have to bear with me. I’m still trying to figure all of this out.”

“Hey,” I reply. “Me too.”

And it’s true. Neither of us really knows how we feel or what will or won’t work until we test it out. For example, my husband continues to wrestle with how much he does and does not want to know. If I’m with another woman, he wants every gory detail. But when I’m with another man, sometimes he’d prefer not to know it happened at all. Generally, though, he likes to know who and when. When he asks for specific information, I answer. Sometimes, however, it’s hard to read whether he really wants that answer, and I feel sad when I get it wrong. Like when I don’t tell him something and it comes up later, making him feel out of the loop, something I try desperately to avoid. It all boils down to effective communication—without it, no marriage, open or otherwise, stands a chance.

Being secretive, lying, or sneaking around—those would be surefire ways to destroy our marriage. But the sex itself is not a threat. I think of it as the “playpen effect”: You keep a kid locked up in one of those things and all she thinks about is how to get out, how much she’ll love what’s in the other room. But let her roam free and check it all out, and odds are she’ll end up at your feet, playing with a puzzle. Is there a chance she’ll love another room and stay in there instead? Sure. Just like there’s always a chance one of us will fall in love with someone else and decide to end our marriage. But I don’t think that having sex outside our marriage increases that risk. In fact, I believe it decreases it, because it removes all the fantasy. I don’t pine. If I want someone (and he wants me), then I have him. So far, no one has come even close to making me want to jump ship. But I’ll tell you the truth: Before we tried out this open marriage thing, I definitely wondered about the quality of the grass in other lawns.

In all, making this work has been much less dramatic than one might imagine. Sex is a happy thing, a good thing. If I can find happiness in something so simple, without hurting anyone, why wouldn’t I? There’s no one swinging from our chandeliers. We don’t attend parties with fishbowls for keys at the door. And our daughter isn’t exposed to any sort of debauched behavior. None of this affects her at all, in fact, because she never sees anything out of the ordinary. When my friend stayed over, she was always back in the guest room before our daughter woke up, and she slept over as much before and after the affair as during. And there have been no other lovers in our home. Putting our needs over our daughter’s well-being is never an option.

My pattern of lovers fluctuates. There have been times when I’ve had a steady or two, men I kept in touch with after our initial “meeting.” There was my Skier Philosopher, who sent me delicious emails and met me for marathon nights in lavish hotels; my Playboy Analyst, who was the best friend of the guy my best friend was dating and who was happy to “take me in” when I visited her; my Young Romantic, who called me now and again, and would make plans to see me when he was in town. But mostly there have been more anonymous trysts. That seems to be where I am right now. Men—or women—I meet when I’m out of town, spend a night or two with and then never see or talk to again. Lots of people are basically in open marriages: They have illicit affairs. My husband and I simply decided we were ready to be honest, with ourselves and with each other, about what we want and need.

This is in no way a prescription for anyone else. All I know is how I feel, which is loved and cherished and secure—thanks to my husband. I want that. But I don’t see anything wrong with wanting more. And, for me, that “more” is longing. Mystery. Sexual tension. Craving—and getting tastes of—things I never wholly possess.

Why am I married, then? Many people have asked me that question. So I’ll tell you exactly what I tell them. As hot as it makes me when a new conquest whispers something scandalous in my ear, nothing thrills me like the sound of my husband’s voice when I hear him say, “Hey, baby, I’m home.”

Jenny Block has been married to her husband for almost nine years, two of them open.
She is a freelance writer and is working on a book.

don't forget to give your own comments to this thread to start the discussion.

Willravel · 06-16-2007, 11:16 AM

This is one of those great moments where you can choose to be true to expectations of society or true to yourself. I don't think I could ever love anyone as much as my wife, but if I did and she was open to it, I'd like to think I would have the courage to explore my way of showing love in the relationship.

Being true to yourself, as long as it doesn't hurt others, is a wonderful thing.

Push-Pull · 06-16-2007, 12:27 PM

Good and powerful read. Even though I'm not considering open marriage, this article definitely outlines the absolute need to be honest with your partner (as well as yourself) and the benefits of doing so.

digme · 06-16-2007, 12:57 PM

Great article. I had never heard of Tango before, and I'm going through their archive. Some very interesting stuff!

lurkette · 06-16-2007, 12:58 PM

Thank you for posting this!

When ratbastid and I were with D&S, our first poly love interests, there was really no question of being "out" about because they are teachers and were fearful of the repercussions. Close friends knew, but that was the extent of it. It was also never clear to any of us that it was an actual "relationship" or more of a dalliance, which seemed to call for less disclosure.

Now that we're with StellaLuna, it's definitely a relationship, and (we all hope and intend) a long-term one. That brings up a host of issues about who we want to know about things. Not just for the sake of being honest with the people around us whom we love, but also for the sake of having the support and recognition that a serious relationship needs and deserves. It's been really difficult sometimes to think about telling family who may not approve. It's nice to see more and more people out there (here and in Salon and Slate - those are the other two "mainstream" internet sources I've seen publish sympathetic pieces on polyamory) trying to explain it to the normals. The more it's out there, the more acceptable or at least understandable I hope it will become.

It's sad and scary to see otherwise open-minded, rational people go batshit crazy when it comes to any non-traditional definition of marriage. I know it's a fundamental human institution, but honestly - is it working that well? Why should it be so very threatening and incomprehensible if people tweak it to work for them?

At least for us, the practice of polyamory has been a beautiful way to become our better selves. We listen to the "polyamory weekly" podcast, and one of the analogies they use there for jealousy or insecurity in poly relationships is that, if your fridge isn't working, you don't just...stop using the fridge! You find out what's wrong with it and you fix it. Similarly, butting up against jealousy or insecurity in a poly relationship isn't necessarily a reason to quit. It points to something to fix in your relationship with each other, or with yourself. I can't tell you how much more confident and at peace with myself I've been since I dealt with the underlying issues that were causing me to be insecure around ratbastid being with someone else. It's not just that our marriage is stronger, it's that we ourselves are stronger as individuals. Isn't that what marriage is supposed to be about? Supporting each other in becoming your best selves? Sometimes you have to be ruthless with yourself, but in the end it's worth it to have stripped away that piece of "not me."

Oh, and ff life is a banquet, then I'm having 2 desserts!

ngdawg · 06-16-2007, 04:09 PM

There's a difference between polyamorous relationships and open marriages in that there is not necessarily any love for others in the second.
Societal mores have drilled into us that we are incapable of loving more than one person at a time-a notion I find utterly absurd. Do we only love one child at a time or one parent?
Only geese and a few other birds mate 'for life' as an instinctual behavior. For humans, it's a choice.
The essay was good for what it was, but they've only been open for two years and it's more of an allowance on his part since he has no desire to go outside the marriage. But I don't agree with some of the comments there that it's a death knell for them any more than any other issue might be. A marriage dies because the love that was there has died. And sometimes, long after it's dead, we still live with the corpse...

Ourcrazymodern? · 06-16-2007, 06:12 PM

Polyamory glues you to everyone if you're willing.

digme · 06-27-2007, 01:49 PM

I've been thinking a lot about this article and I wish we could have gotten the husbands perspective. I was left wondering "is he really ok with it, or is he just doing it because the other option would be losing his wife"?

Maybe he's totally cool with it. But it would have been nice to hear his half as the spouse who is less interested in more partners.

lurkette · 06-27-2007, 04:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by digme

I've been thinking a lot about this article and I wish we could have gotten the husbands perspective. I was left wondering "is he really ok with it, or is he just doing it because the other option would be losing his wife"?

Maybe he's totally cool with it. But it would have been nice to hear his half as the spouse who is less interested in more partners.

Yeah, I thought about that too. Particularly as many of the negative responses to the article had to do with how she was torturing her husband for her own selfish needs...it would be nice to get his perspective.

From our own experience, it doesn't really work if one person's just putting up with it and sitting on angst and fear and insecurity. The dam always bursts.

MrFriendly · 06-27-2007, 06:03 PM

You know, I've never really mentioned this before, but pretty much the only reason I love hanging out in this forum is because of the sexuality board, and because of how open everyone here is about sexuality.

But what draws me in is that fact a lot of advice here doesn't center around sex it self so much, as it does communication and relating to your parter/s.

I grew up watching the pretty loveless marriage my parents were in, and it was completely counter to what we're told marriage is supposed to be about. And the chief reason their marriage was dead was because neither of them knew how to properly communicate with each other.

So after that, I decided to fuck the central idea that we have to be in a relationship to be happy, and that if you're in one, you're expected to make it last as long as you can, to what seemed to me for just the sake of it. In other words, I didn't want to accept that we have to live a certain way because that's what is deemed normal.

I've never been one to really care about explaining myself to others, and lets face it, there's probably a lot about me that's really best left unexplained

. But one thing I've learned is that when emotions start being put on the line, the only way to truly navigate a usually tricky mine field is to communicate.

But what the hell does that ever really mean anyways?

My interpretation on that is making sure all parties know EXACTLY where they stand with each other. That means making your thoughts and feelings known. Unfortunately, it doesn't always mean people will accept it, or that things will magically get easier, or be resolved. I think that's where a persons nature and personality come into it. It's one thing to be able to communicate, it's another thing to be able to handle and deal with the information being communicated. One still has to be reasonable, rational, and willing to compromise and sacrifice in order to get what they want and still keep others happy.

I found that article very interesting. But like others said, without hearing it from the husbands side of it, how much of it is him just sucking it up for the sake of his marriage?

But on the flip side, maybe they're are both totally happy, and maybe it just works for them just fine. If they're both as open with each other as the article suggests, I'd see no reason why he couldn't be. Going out and sleeping around simply might not be his thing, I know it's not mine.

Hehehe, any who, I'm trying to bang out too many ideas and I'm not articulating them, that's what happens when I'm at work

ratbastid · 06-27-2007, 06:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MrFriendly

But like others said, without hearing it from the husbands side of it, how much of it is him just sucking it up for the sake of his marriage?

I'll say this (having been, in the past, a husband sucking it up for the sake of): that approach is a very workable short-term situation. It does fine in the short term. In the long-term, it's a complete disaster. But for the short-term, it's completely OK.

So... if that IS what's going on in that relationship, it won't be for long.

JStrider · 06-28-2007, 01:33 AM

Interesting read, I've thought for quite a while that the marriage system is pretty messed up... I mean don't more then 50% end up in divorce now?

If there were less social pressures to fit the "normal" family life and all that and people were more accepting/understanding of open and polyamorous relationships maybe the marriage system wouldn't seem so broken... But also as the article and others have said communication is key, and I think many people dont want to spend the time to work on communicating, just look for a quick fix and when they dont see it they bail.

Deltona Couple · 06-28-2007, 06:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JStrider

Interesting read, I've thought for quite a while that the marriage system is pretty messed up... I mean don't more then 50% end up in divorce now?

If there were less social pressures to fit the "normal" family life and all that and people were more accepting/understanding of open and polyamorous relationships maybe the marriage system wouldn't seem so broken... But also as the article and others have said communication is key, and I think many people dont want to spend the time to work on communicating, just look for a quick fix and when they dont see it they bail.

Actually you will be supprised how many marriages are NOT broken up. It all stems back to how strong and solid the relationship was in the first place, and WHY the couple entered into the lifestyle in the first place. If the spouse is doing in ONLY because they love their SO and don't want to hurt their feelings, then yea, it probably WILL end in divorce. It stems back to communication and how they feel about each other.

hagatha · 06-28-2007, 06:44 AM

All I could see was how utterly selfish the woman was---the husband was pretty much so so about the whole thing. She could shroud her "needs" in all the flowery, hippie child bullshit she wanted, what it came down to was MEMEMEMEMEMEMEME.....

I don't need to hear crap from a bunch of hippie freaks living in denial! Screw you guys, I'm going home. E. Cartman

Plan9 · 06-28-2007, 07:17 AM

What's that quote?

The one you dig out whenever the wife worries about cheating:

"I've already got one woman I can't stand... what makes you think I need another?"

So true.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MrFriendly

So after that, I decided to fuck the central idea that we have to be in a relationship to be happy, and that if you're in one, you're expected to make it last as long as you can, to what seemed to me for just the sake of it. In other words, I didn't want to accept that we have to live a certain way because that's what is deemed normal.

Let your life be defined by inhale / exhale... and by not much else.

Amen.

Deltona Couple · 06-28-2007, 09:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hagatha

All I could see was how utterly selfish the woman was---the husband was pretty much so so about the whole thing. She could shroud her "needs" in all the flowery, hippie child bullshit she wanted, what it came down to was MEMEMEMEMEMEMEME.....

I don't need to hear crap from a bunch of hippie freaks living in denial! Screw you guys, I'm going home. E. Cartman

I have a question on that comment. What is wrong with a person wanting to be a little selfish? Everyone has needs and desires. Should someone just give up all the desires they have because they are married? Or should they be able to openly discuss them with the one that they love? I don't see her as being selfish at all. If she was being selfish she would just cheat on him all the time and not disuss things with him, only worrying about HER needs, and not the needs of the marriage. Just my opinion of course, but I would like to see where you get the "memememe" from?

hagatha · 06-28-2007, 03:26 PM

Last I heard, marriage meant giving up and compromising on things. Maybe, just maybe, if you want multiple partners you shouldn't be married. Why is marriage even on the table if you want multiple partners--it makes marriage a joke.

Why enter a traditional arrangement if you don't want it?

And yeah, if you want to be selfish and want all your needs met by another person while giving up next to nothing for them, I say you shouldn't be married.

That is all I'm saying.

JustJess · 06-28-2007, 04:00 PM

Any partnership is a compromise at times. It has to be for the partnership to survive disagreements and such. But if I felt that being married meant "giving up on things", or that I had to live only a "traditional" life, I would never have gotten married. There is no one way that is the "right" way to live. That way lay madness.

Marriage is what you make of it. If you want the traditional roles, then by all means, have at it. But don't kid yourself - we're all selfish. She's just being honest about it. Sometimes, it feels like we just take turns on who gets to be selfish this week! It's not that I no longer get what I want, it's that I want different things than as a single person. So I make Q happy in the meantime - really, that's selfish. I make him happy because it makes ME happy.

This response of yours sounds very naive to me, and certainly under-informed. We don't know how her husband feels. This is only her perspective. I'd advise against assigning your own reactions to him in his stead.

Maze · 06-28-2007, 11:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hagatha

All I could see was how utterly selfish the woman was---the husband was pretty much so so about the whole thing. She could shroud her "needs" in all the flowery, hippie child bullshit she wanted, what it came down to was MEMEMEMEMEMEMEME.....

I totally agree with this. And something that has bothered me recently is all his claiming of being "open" is better than being "closed". Which has gone so far to say that "I'm being so open I'll fuck anyone, this is a good thing". Obviously being closed minded limits a person. But being SO open-minded to everything destroys a person I think, they get lost in desire/selfishness.

"A woman can't sleep around without risking terrible retribution, to her reputation, to her prospects, to her life. "Can anyone find a single culture in which women with unrestrained sexual appetites aren't viewed as more aberrant than comparably libidinous men?" Robert Wright.

But obviously I know everyone realises this, its just the basis of my stance that if society is like that, theres gotta be a reason for it. Supposedly that reason is genetic, that a man has a high sex drive for probability that he needs to spread his seed to get the good chance of producing quality offspring, whereas a woman is supposed to find the one great male, and try to latch on to him to provide for the babies from that man, its unrealistic for the man to really take care and love a baby that isn't his, so they have to concentrate on one partner.

I think this whole open marriage thing is just a facade for people who are utterly selfish, they want everything. They know nothing of dignity, self-control, discipline. All they know is to feed their desire is whats "right", and being happy is the most important thing.

( On a similar note i read this article recently http://www.indiana.edu/~ovid99/angier.html
which goes to argue against the supposed relationship genetics of man and woman, and what they want, it makes some great points but then some comparisons are a bit pointless in light of modern day realistics.)

abaya · 06-29-2007, 01:40 AM

Watch yourself. There are more than a handful of good people around here (TFP) who practice open/polyamorous marriages, and do it more successfully than a lot of monogamous, "traditional" people.

JustJess · 06-29-2007, 03:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JustJess

Any partnership is a compromise at times. It has to be for the partnership to survive disagreements and such. But if I felt that being married meant "giving up on things", or that I had to live only a "traditional" life, I would never have gotten married. There is no one way that is the "right" way to live. That way lay madness.

Marriage is what you make of it. If you want the traditional roles, then by all means, have at it. But don't kid yourself - we're all selfish. She's just being honest about it. Sometimes, it feels like we just take turns on who gets to be selfish this week! It's not that I no longer get what I want, it's that I want different things than as a single person. So I make Q happy in the meantime - really, that's selfish. I make him happy because it makes ME happy.

This response of yours sounds very naive to me, and certainly under-informed. We don't know how her husband feels. This is only her perspective. I'd advise against assigning your own reactions to him in his stead.

Quote:

Originally Posted by abaya

Watch yourself. There are more than a handful of good people around here (TFP) who practice open/polyamorous marriages, and do it more successfully than a lot of monogamous, "traditional" people.

I repeat.... WE ARE ALL SELFISH. RELATIONSHIPS ARE SELFISH. Relationships, at their core, are about balancing the selfish needs of two (or more) people. We get into relationships because we are willing to do so. All we know is that this woman and her husband are currently doing that. We don't know that her husband is happy, or UNhappy. If he's not willing to balance his needs with hers, then he can stop.

THERE IS NO ONE TRUE PATH.

hagatha · 06-29-2007, 04:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JustJess

I repeat.... WE ARE ALL SELFISH. RELATIONSHIPS ARE SELFISH. Relationships, at their core, are about balancing the selfish needs of two (or more) people. We get into relationships because we are willing to do so. All we know is that this woman and her husband are currently doing that. We don't know that her husband is happy, or UNhappy. If he's not willing to balance his needs with hers, then he can stop.

THERE IS NO ONE TRUE PATH.

My point is why marry? Why take on a traditional form of union and then enter into a polyamorous arrangement? Why not just live together? Who said marriage is a right? If you don't wish to live within its confines, don't do it.

lurkette · 06-29-2007, 04:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Maze

I think this whole open marriage thing is just a facade for people who are utterly selfish, they want everything. They know nothing of dignity, self-control, discipline. All they know is to feed their desire is whats "right", and being happy is the most important thing.

While you have a right to your opinion, I'll posit that it's based entirely on misconceptions, or a limited concept, of what "open marriage" is. I just really can't even think of where to begin to address your concept that "they" (or "we," thanks very much) "know nothing of dignity, self-control, discipline." You have no clue what it takes to successfully maintain a non-monogamous relationship (or, in our case, a polymonogamous relationship, in which we adhere to the principles of monogamy, but with 3 people instead of 2). I find great dignity in the ability to submit oneself to one's partner's desires for fulfillment, and in rooting out the sources of jealousy and insecurity. I find it takes great self-control to manage one's emotions in the face of a sometimes challenging situation. And it can take great discipline to maintain ANY relationship, regardless of the number of people involved. Granted, our situation is different from an "open" relationship in which people are allowed to maintain secondary relationships that are often purely sexual in nature. But even in that situation, and I know a number of people who practice such relationships successfully (i.e., for a decade or more) and do it with a grace and self-awareness that would put many monogamous relationships to shame.

I also don't think the genetic/evolutionary argument holds water. There are a lot of evolutionary reasons for behavior, but that does not mean that we accept them or that they should be standards for modern behavior. There are countless species who have survived successfully without permanent pair bonding, and until recently (the last 1000 years or so, when a variety of social structures that were best supported by stable pair bonding emerged) humans were one of those species.

Vlad · 06-29-2007, 04:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hagatha

My point is why marry? Why take on a traditional form of union and then enter into a polyamorous arrangement? Why not just live together? Who said marriage is a right? If you don't wish to live within its confines, don't do it.

Well, it could be because marriage is about more than sex. You could just as easily say "well, you can have a completely monogamous sexual relationship, so why bother getting married?". Marriage is what the two people involved in that marriage make of it. If being "open" works for them, then why should they not practice it for the sake of adhering to what a marriage is "supposed" to be?

ratbastid · 06-29-2007, 05:39 AM

Nobody ever said that any one particular configuration of relationships is better than any other. I have a huge amount of respect for people in monogamous binary relationships that work. My parents have been married for going on 40 years, and they're happy and in love, and it's great.

I very much strive to respect others' choices. It's nice when mine are respected too.

JustJess · 06-29-2007, 05:42 AM

Yep. ^^^^
Marriage IS my right. To practice as I see fit. It is part of my right to PRIVACY. In other words, it's none of your business what I (we) do as long as I'm not hurting you or anyone unable to consent. (That's a general "your", not "your=Hagatha".)

lurkette · 06-29-2007, 07:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hagatha

My point is why marry? Why take on a traditional form of union and then enter into a polyamorous arrangement? Why not just live together? Who said marriage is a right? If you don't wish to live within its confines, don't do it.

At least in our case, we got married, and after a while found that some of the traditional restrictions really weren't working for us. Particularly as I (like the woman in the article) am bisexual, and felt not just a desire to experiment outside the relationship, but really felt like a part of me that needed to be expressed was utterly stifled. I think a lot of people wander blithely into marriage fully expecting that it's going to work, and fully intending to MAKE it work, but simply find that it doesn't work for them, for whatever reason. At least in our case, we found that redefining it to accommodate needs we never dreamed we would have when we married at 22 was much preferable to calling it quits because we couldn't play by other people's expectations for what marriage should be.

Why would it bother you that people redefine marriage FOR THEMSELVES? It seems unrealistic and more than a little rigid to insist that all people view social institutions in exactly the same light.

hagatha · 06-29-2007, 07:45 AM

I think we need a definition of terms here.
Polyamorous--the word "amorous" is contained therein. As I define it, a core loving relationship that is widened to include other loving relationships.

Open relationship--core loving relationship widened to include other sexual relationships. Akin to swinging.

I think it requires an intensely mature, loving couple to enter into either arrangement unscathed. And I think interweaving between the terms "poly" and "open" is a mistake.

And Lurkette, I'm sorry if you take any offence to what I've said so far about marriage, but I am entitled to my opinion. I still don't understand why people enter into it if they have no intention of honoring the contract they've signed. And if you do have a polyamorous arrangement, you've taken on another emotional/sexual partner, and that is a breach of the original contract you entered.

abaya · 06-29-2007, 08:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hagatha

I still don't understand why people enter into it if they have no intention of honoring the contract they've signed.

Hold up... what contract? I just got married in October and I certainly didn't sign any contract, nor did either of us promise to be faithful to each other till death did us part. We had a woman off the internet marry us in a completely secular manner, and she signed our legal marriage certificate... but there was no "contract" at any time or place. We actually could have had a completely officiant-less marriage if we wanted, with two friends signing instead of an internet-officiant (thank you, PA Quakers!)... but we opted for the officiant instead. We also wrote our own vows, though that wasn't necessary in any way for us to get married. I'm just curious... of which contract-signage do you speak?

Cynthetiq · 06-29-2007, 08:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by abaya

Hold up... what contract? I just got married in October and I certainly didn't sign any contract, nor did either of us promise to be faithful to each other till death did us part. We had a woman off the internet marry us in a completely secular manner, and she signed our legal marriage certificate... but there was no "contract" at any time or place. We actually could have had a completely officiant-less marriage if we wanted, with two friends signing instead of an internet-officiant (thank you, PA Quakers!)... but we opted for the officiant instead. We also wrote our own vows, though that wasn't necessary in any way for us to get married. I'm just curious... of which contract-signage do you speak?

I don't know about signed, but oral contract.

abaya · 06-29-2007, 08:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cynthetiq

I don't know about signed, but oral contract.

Well, just working from what I read, which was "signed"... but even if we're talking about an oral contract, I'd hate to know that my wedding vows could be used against me someday. Many of us did not use the traditional vows for this very reason, and we wrote our own especially because our lives and personalities cannot be bound by those age-old words from some priest's book. We wanted to remain open to something alternative happening a few years/decades down the road, even if we never acted on it. I'm sure there are others who did the same... in which case, there is no contract to violate, whether oral or signed.

EDIT... BTW: So if two people have no intention of honoring monogamous bifidelity (new word?), they shouldn't get married...? Well, what about those of us with citizenships from different countries, who have no option other than to get married, if we want to be together? I wouldn't be here enjoying Iceland with ktspktsp if we hadn't gotten married, because legally, he would be unable to get a visa without that "piece of paper" that binds us together. Nor would he be able to apply for Permanent Residency in the US without us being married.

So even if we wanted to be polyamorous and all cohabit because "marriage" doesn't apply to us... the laws of the US and many other countries would never permit us to travel and live freely in other countries with our loved ones. As it is, let's say Ratbastid and Lurkette immigrated to a new country... legally, they could not bring StellaLuna with them. Which is a real tragedy. This same lack of justice also applies to gay and lesbian couples, which absolutely sucks for them.

No, people get married for all KINDS of different reasons than to simply "be faithful" to one another in a binary way. Marriage migration is in the top 5 of that list, I can assure you. And many times, it has jack squat to do with being faithful.

ratbastid · 06-29-2007, 08:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hagatha

And Lurkette, I'm sorry if you take any offence to what I've said so far about marriage, but I am entitled to my opinion. I still don't understand why people enter into it if they have no intention of honoring the contract they've signed. And if you do have a polyamorous arrangement, you've taken on another emotional/sexual partner, and that is a breach of the original contract you entered.

Well, that's valid until you consider who entered into that promise (I decline to use the word "contract" in this case, because it's just inaccurate). Look: I stood in front of lurkette and our families and loved ones and promised that I'd forsake all others. I did. Can't deny it. But who I made that promise to was lurkette, and I'm who she made that promise to. If we agree to alter our agreement, we have the freedom to do that. There's no dishonor of the word we originally gave, in that. There would be dishonor in it if we pretended we'd never said that, or we acted to break that word in secret (as so many married people do). But to say: here's what we said, and now we're saying something different... that's COMPLETELY an act of honoring our word.

Cynthetiq · 06-29-2007, 08:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by abaya

Well, just working from what I read, which was "signed"... but even if we're talking about an oral contract, I'd hate to know that my wedding vows could be used against me someday. Many of us did not use the traditional vows for this very reason, and we wrote our own especially because our lives and personalities cannot be bound by those age-old words from some priest's book. We wanted to remain open to something alternative happening a few years/decades down the road, even if we never acted on it. I'm sure there are others who did the same... in which case, there is no contract to violate, whether oral or signed.

yeah that's why the whole divorce thing is so problematic.

see how the hippy thing meant different things to different people, imagine that with the vows. ugh. makes my head hurt thinking about it already.

abaya · 06-29-2007, 08:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ratbastid

If we agree to alter our agreement, we have the freedom to do that. There's no dishonor of the word we originally gave, in that. There would be dishonor in it if we pretended we'd never said that, or we acted to break that word in secret (as so many married people do). But to say: here's what we said, and now we're saying something different... that's COMPLETELY an act of honoring our word.

Now, you've gone and said it much more clearly than I attempted to...

And I can get behind that, 100%.

If two people make a deal, between themselves only and no one else (a marriage doesn't involve promising the audience anything!), and both people agree to change the terms of the deal later on... well, who's at fault? No one. Everything's on the table, in the clear. Hell, even amendments get made to the constitution... and thank god they do, considering some of the "contracts" that were agreed to earlier in our country's history.

lurkette · 06-29-2007, 10:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ratbastid

Well, that's valid until you consider who entered into that promise (I decline to use the word "contract" in this case, because it's just inaccurate). Look: I stood in front of lurkette and our families and loved ones and promised that I'd forsake all others. I did. Can't deny it. But who I made that promise to was lurkette, and I'm who she made that promise to. If we agree to alter our agreement, we have the freedom to do that. There's no dishonor of the word we originally gave, in that. There would be dishonor in it if we pretended we'd never said that, or we acted to break that word in secret (as so many married people do). But to say: here's what we said, and now we're saying something different... that's COMPLETELY an act of honoring our word.

I agree 100% with my ratbastid. Except I'm not so sure we actually did have the verbiage "forsaking all others" in our vows. We chopped a lot out, including most of the god stuff. I remember the sickness/health, better/worse, richer/poorer, till death do us part stuff, but I don't specifically remember the "forsaking all others" part. But I'm getting pedantic.

Which is kind of the point. You can honor the spirit of a "contract" even if you alter the actual word of the agreement. If you're going to nitpick and get all snippy about contracts and such (my, what a romantic view of marriage...) you're kind of missing the point.

ratbastid · 06-29-2007, 10:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lurkette

(my, what a romantic view of marriage...)

Well, let's not forget--we're the couple that talked it over rationally, discussed all our options, and concluded that we should get married. Not exactly a romantic beginning.

But it's worked out nicely!

lurkette · 06-29-2007, 12:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ratbastid

Well, let's not forget--we're the couple that talked it over rationally, discussed all our options, and concluded that we should get married. Not exactly a romantic beginning.

But it's worked out nicely!

Hey, it was at the Dairy Queen over chocolate-dipped ice cream cones. That's pretty romantic

ratbastid · 06-29-2007, 12:55 PM

Fair enough.

chickenandhoney · 08-23-2009, 05:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by abaya

Watch yourself. There are more than a handful of good people around here (TFP) who practice open/polyamorous marriages, and do it more successfully than a lot of monogamous, "traditional" people.

i so agree been workin it all out for over a year now!!! LOVE is so amazing yes i said love, because for us thats what it is all about

---------- Post added at 05:50 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:42 PM ----------

Quote:

Originally Posted by ratbastid

Well, that's valid until you consider who entered into that promise (I decline to use the word "contract" in this case, because it's just inaccurate). Look: I stood in front of lurkette and our families and loved ones and promised that I'd forsake all others. I did. Can't deny it. But who I made that promise to was lurkette, and I'm who she made that promise to. If we agree to alter our agreement, we have the freedom to do that. There's no dishonor of the word we originally gave, in that. There would be dishonor in it if we pretended we'd never said that, or we acted to break that word in secret (as so many married people do). But to say: here's what we said, and now we're saying something different... that's COMPLETELY an act of honoring our word.

life is not planned how can u control where your heart ends up as long as the people involved have an understanding of what is going on who is to say how you feel is wrong...love is not wrong...

06-16-2007, 09:53 AM	#1 (permalink)
RenaissanceII Psycho Location: Grand Rapids	Another perspective on Open Marriage/Poly... Knowing that there are several practitioners in our merry little band here @TFP who are active in Polyamory/Open Marriage, Here is another perspective I stumbled across..... (NSFW) http://www.tangomag.com/tabid/89/art...-Marriage.aspx In being open to her true nature and sharing her true self with her husband and lovers, and realizing the potential pitfalls, that shows to me a remarkable sense of maturity and openness, worthy of emulation on my part. In closing (for now) the perfect quote, IMHO, Roslind Russell from "Auntie Mame" "Life is a banquet, and some poor suckers are still starving to death." Glad I finally made it to the banquet HERE! Comments? edited for commentary and reflections __________________ And the day came when the risk to remain tight in a bud was more painful than the risk it took to blossom.* Anais Nin I Wish *You* Well. Last edited by RenaissanceII; 06-16-2007 at 10:26 AM..

06-16-2007, 12:27 PM	#4 (permalink)
Push-Pull I'll ask when I'm ready.... Location: Firmly in the middle....	Good and powerful read. Even though I'm not considering open marriage, this article definitely outlines the absolute need to be honest with your partner (as well as yourself) and the benefits of doing so. __________________ "No laws, no matter how rigidly enforced, can protect a person from their own stupidity." -Me- "Some people are like Slinkies..... They are not really good for anything, but they still bring a smile to your face when you push them down a flight of stairs." -Unknown- DAMMIT! -Jack Bauer-

06-16-2007, 04:09 PM	#7 (permalink)
ngdawg peekaboo Location: on the back, bitch	There's a difference between polyamorous relationships and open marriages in that there is not necessarily any love for others in the second. Societal mores have drilled into us that we are incapable of loving more than one person at a time-a notion I find utterly absurd. Do we only love one child at a time or one parent? Only geese and a few other birds mate 'for life' as an instinctual behavior. For humans, it's a choice. The essay was good for what it was, but they've only been open for two years and it's more of an allowance on his part since he has no desire to go outside the marriage. But I don't agree with some of the comments there that it's a death knell for them any more than any other issue might be. A marriage dies because the love that was there has died. And sometimes, long after it's dead, we still live with the corpse... __________________ Don't blame me. I didn't vote for either of'em.

06-16-2007, 06:12 PM	#8 (permalink)
Ourcrazymodern? still, wondering. Location: South Minneapolis, somewhere near the gorgeous gorge	Polyamory glues you to everyone if you're willing. __________________ BE JUST AND FEAR NOT

06-27-2007, 06:03 PM	#11 (permalink)
MrFriendly Psycho Location: Australia	You know, I've never really mentioned this before, but pretty much the only reason I love hanging out in this forum is because of the sexuality board, and because of how open everyone here is about sexuality. But what draws me in is that fact a lot of advice here doesn't center around sex it self so much, as it does communication and relating to your parter/s. I grew up watching the pretty loveless marriage my parents were in, and it was completely counter to what we're told marriage is supposed to be about. And the chief reason their marriage was dead was because neither of them knew how to properly communicate with each other. So after that, I decided to fuck the central idea that we have to be in a relationship to be happy, and that if you're in one, you're expected to make it last as long as you can, to what seemed to me for just the sake of it. In other words, I didn't want to accept that we have to live a certain way because that's what is deemed normal. I've never been one to really care about explaining myself to others, and lets face it, there's probably a lot about me that's really best left unexplained . But one thing I've learned is that when emotions start being put on the line, the only way to truly navigate a usually tricky mine field is to communicate. But what the hell does that ever really mean anyways? My interpretation on that is making sure all parties know EXACTLY where they stand with each other. That means making your thoughts and feelings known. Unfortunately, it doesn't always mean people will accept it, or that things will magically get easier, or be resolved. I think that's where a persons nature and personality come into it. It's one thing to be able to communicate, it's another thing to be able to handle and deal with the information being communicated. One still has to be reasonable, rational, and willing to compromise and sacrifice in order to get what they want and still keep others happy. I found that article very interesting. But like others said, without hearing it from the husbands side of it, how much of it is him just sucking it up for the sake of his marriage? But on the flip side, maybe they're are both totally happy, and maybe it just works for them just fine. If they're both as open with each other as the article suggests, I'd see no reason why he couldn't be. Going out and sleeping around simply might not be his thing, I know it's not mine. Hehehe, any who, I'm trying to bang out too many ideas and I'm not articulating them, that's what happens when I'm at work __________________ You are not a slave

06-16-2007, 11:16 AM	#3 (permalink)
Willravel ... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.	This is one of those great moments where you can choose to be true to expectations of society or true to yourself. I don't think I could ever love anyone as much as my wife, but if I did and she was open to it, I'd like to think I would have the courage to explore my way of showing love in the relationship. Being true to yourself, as long as it doesn't hurt others, is a wonderful thing.

06-16-2007, 12:57 PM	#5 (permalink)
digme Crazy Location: madison, wi	Great article. I had never heard of Tango before, and I'm going through their archive. Some very interesting stuff!

06-27-2007, 01:49 PM	#9 (permalink)
digme Crazy Location: madison, wi	I've been thinking a lot about this article and I wish we could have gotten the husbands perspective. I was left wondering "is he really ok with it, or is he just doing it because the other option would be losing his wife"? Maybe he's totally cool with it. But it would have been nice to hear his half as the spouse who is less interested in more partners.

06-28-2007, 01:33 AM	#13 (permalink)
JStrider Poo-tee-weet? Location: The Woodlands, TX	Interesting read, I've thought for quite a while that the marriage system is pretty messed up... I mean don't more then 50% end up in divorce now? If there were less social pressures to fit the "normal" family life and all that and people were more accepting/understanding of open and polyamorous relationships maybe the marriage system wouldn't seem so broken... But also as the article and others have said communication is key, and I think many people dont want to spend the time to work on communicating, just look for a quick fix and when they dont see it they bail. __________________ -=JStrider=- ~Clatto Verata Nicto

06-28-2007, 06:44 AM	#15 (permalink)
hagatha Addict	All I could see was how utterly selfish the woman was---the husband was pretty much so so about the whole thing. She could shroud her "needs" in all the flowery, hippie child bullshit she wanted, what it came down to was MEMEMEMEMEMEMEME..... I don't need to hear crap from a bunch of hippie freaks living in denial! Screw you guys, I'm going home. E. Cartman __________________ Thats the last time I trust the strangest people I ever met....H. Simpson Last edited by hagatha; 06-28-2007 at 06:48 AM..

06-28-2007, 03:26 PM	#18 (permalink)
hagatha Addict	Last I heard, marriage meant giving up and compromising on things. Maybe, just maybe, if you want multiple partners you shouldn't be married. Why is marriage even on the table if you want multiple partners--it makes marriage a joke. Why enter a traditional arrangement if you don't want it? And yeah, if you want to be selfish and want all your needs met by another person while giving up next to nothing for them, I say you shouldn't be married. That is all I'm saying. __________________ Thats the last time I trust the strangest people I ever met....H. Simpson

06-28-2007, 04:00 PM	#19 (permalink)
JustJess Unencapsulated Location: Kittyville	Any partnership is a compromise at times. It has to be for the partnership to survive disagreements and such. But if I felt that being married meant "giving up on things", or that I had to live only a "traditional" life, I would never have gotten married. There is no one way that is the "right" way to live. That way lay madness. Marriage is what you make of it. If you want the traditional roles, then by all means, have at it. But don't kid yourself - we're all selfish. She's just being honest about it. Sometimes, it feels like we just take turns on who gets to be selfish this week! It's not that I no longer get what I want, it's that I want different things than as a single person. So I make Q happy in the meantime - really, that's selfish. I make him happy because it makes ME happy. This response of yours sounds very naive to me, and certainly under-informed. We don't know how her husband feels. This is only her perspective. I'd advise against assigning your own reactions to him in his stead. __________________ My heart knows me better than I know myself, so I'm gonna let it do all the talkin'.

06-29-2007, 01:40 AM	#21 (permalink)
abaya Location: Iceland	Watch yourself. There are more than a handful of good people around here (TFP) who practice open/polyamorous marriages, and do it more successfully than a lot of monogamous, "traditional" people. __________________ And think not you can direct the course of Love; for Love, if it finds you worthy, directs your course. --Khalil Gibran

06-29-2007, 05:39 AM	#26 (permalink)
ratbastid Darth Papa Location: Yonder	Nobody ever said that any one particular configuration of relationships is better than any other. I have a huge amount of respect for people in monogamous binary relationships that work. My parents have been married for going on 40 years, and they're happy and in love, and it's great. I very much strive to respect others' choices. It's nice when mine are respected too.

06-29-2007, 05:42 AM	#27 (permalink)
JustJess Unencapsulated Location: Kittyville	Yep. ^^^^ Marriage IS my right. To practice as I see fit. It is part of my right to PRIVACY. In other words, it's none of your business what I (we) do as long as I'm not hurting you or anyone unable to consent. (That's a general "your", not "your=Hagatha".) __________________ My heart knows me better than I know myself, so I'm gonna let it do all the talkin'.

06-29-2007, 07:45 AM	#29 (permalink)
hagatha Addict	I think we need a definition of terms here. Polyamorous--the word "amorous" is contained therein. As I define it, a core loving relationship that is widened to include other loving relationships. Open relationship--core loving relationship widened to include other sexual relationships. Akin to swinging. I think it requires an intensely mature, loving couple to enter into either arrangement unscathed. And I think interweaving between the terms "poly" and "open" is a mistake. And Lurkette, I'm sorry if you take any offence to what I've said so far about marriage, but I am entitled to my opinion. I still don't understand why people enter into it if they have no intention of honoring the contract they've signed. And if you do have a polyamorous arrangement, you've taken on another emotional/sexual partner, and that is a breach of the original contract you entered. __________________ Thats the last time I trust the strangest people I ever met....H. Simpson

06-29-2007, 12:55 PM	#39 (permalink)
ratbastid Darth Papa Location: Yonder	Fair enough.