All I am saying is that what women say they want is only part of the story and you take great offense to it and insinuate that I am misogynist. Nothing quite as amusing as you not liking the message and attacking the messenger rather than debating the merit of the message.

I am simply stating what I have seen over and over with both male and female friends and lovers.

Sorry if you can't see that and choose to level insults at a personal level at me.

I am dumbfounded at people that insist on saying all women do something all of the time

hate to break it to you buddy, but there are women in the world that say what they mean ALL the time. Some of us were raised to know that people are not mind readers and that trying to make a person guess at what you really mean is the worst kind of mind game.

geez, what a crock of horseshit....is it that difficult to say that "some" women do what you're describing instead of labeling us all that way?

Right on MM I agree 100%

True, I am generlizing, however, we as a species generalize every minute of every day. We do it without even realizing that we are doing it. The media is chock full of it.

I will rephrase however, "some women".

See, I'm gonna stick with that all women do it.


You either know you're doing it or you don't. But you're doing it.

thank you, thats much better. I agree there are women that play that kind of game all the time..."oh if you really loved me like you said, you'd KNOW what I really meant"

thats one reason that as a rule I dont count many females in my circle of friends.

I did debate the merit of your message. I called it horseshit. Nothing much more to debate there.

You have your perceptions based on limited personal involvement with some women and then come here to this thread and say we're all full of shit and expect us to nod our heads and consider your "meritous" message?

Pfft.

That's a pretty dangerous way of thinking there mate. Keep living along those lines and you'll soon wind up on a rape charge.

Wow, and just when I was getting some pointers here, this thread turned into a flame war. Personally, I found this one insightful: http://www.tfproject.org/tfp/showthread.php?t=12053

Now in the past I've made serveral opinions about people. How they behave, what they really mean when they say "x" in response to "y", etc. And I have been wrong 9 of 10 times.

And that's great. It's helped me keep an open mind about these things. What I have noticed is that when a person holds a strong belief, they will continually look for evidence to suport it, and zealously discount anything against it.

Ladies, Gentilmen, (and James T Kirk) forget everything you know about women, and go out and meet more people. You'll be surprised with what you find.

And remember, women are people too.

That's a little bit of a silly leap.

Though I find it perhaps telling that you would somehow read rape into that statment. Never the less thanks for your insight.

Agreed, completely. It's too bad that this kind of attitude prevents some TFP members from actually contributing something of worth to these discussions.

And you know, I might not have a list of things I like in a man, but I can tell you for sure that there's one thing I HATE in a man: stubborn, horseshit-filled arrogance.

Yeah sorry dude, I didn't mean that to sound has harsh as it did.

But I stand by the point I was trying to make. If you live by the logic that every woman means the complete opposite of what she says, then you're opening yourself up to some pretty dangerous territory. So what happens when you meet up with a girl and you both get a bit drunk, things start to happen but all of a sudden she changes her mind and says no. By your reasoning she really means yes, and this is where things can go bad. Yu see where I'm coming from?

I'm not trying to imply that you would ever do this, I'm just trying to point out the flaw in your statement.

I agree completely with 777. You really can't make assumptions about anyone regarding anything. I've always been completely taken by surprise by people, even people I know very well. And the fact of the matter is ALL people can learn to change.

Any how, I'll stop derailing the thread now :-)

You can often read what a woman is saying by the way she is saying it. For instance, it's one thing for a woman to moan, "Stop..." in the throes of passionate lovemaking, and another thing completely to say "Stop. Get your hands off me. I said STOP." In the first case, she doesn't want you to stop, and in the second case, she definitely does. It's all in how it's being said.

Understood,

But why say stop in the first place if you don't mean it?

I don't know. Maybe he was giving her whisker burns and she meant to move on to something else. :confused:

I answered with physical traits earlier, and basically described my husband. I've been married before to someone with a totally different body type, but 'above' is what I like now because I'm married to him.

Here are some turn-ons and turn-offs that I thought of, and they have nothing to do with looks whatsoever. **Some don't apply when I first meet someone, *but most do.

Turn Ons: :thumbsup:
** rubbing my back while I go to sleep
* holding hands
* can agree to disagree and not feel a difference of opinion is an attack.
* opens doors for women
* has both male and female friends
* can cook, but does not criticize mine
** scrapes ice off my car so it's clear when I go to work. Even if he leaves before I do.
** on a cold day, he'll run a bubble bath for me so it's ready when I get home from work. (if he gets home before I do)
* a genuine laugh, not held back.
* slow dancing without groping
* can take 'no thank you' for an answer without a lengthy explanation.
* asking me where I'd like to go, but having a plan because I ususally don't care where we go.
* Understands I don't like large, loud crowds of people that I don't know. Doesn't press and try to help me 'get over it'. (hey, I'm old and set in my ways)
* good personal hygeine. Take a shower. Don't bathe in the cologne afterwards, it gives some of us headaches (just like the new car stereo you have)
* eye contact (but not leering), especially if he is smiling.

Turn Offs: :shakehead:

*lying. Especially if he can look me in the eye and lie. I would not know when I could trust him after that.
* public groping. There's a time and a place for that. I don't even like seeing the couple in the next booth acting like they are in a motel. Kissing is one thing.
* when a guy is obviously ogling over women when he is with another women. I don't care if he is with his sister. It looks bad.
* bad mouthing his mother. making a saint out of his mother.
* yelling and swearing, especially at me.
* can't stand to be around kids.
* expects others to be perfect. Especially when he makes no effort to be the best he can be.
** throwing dirty clothes on the floor for someone else to pick up.
* a chronic complainer/whiner. Everything is always everybody else's fault.
* hitting, shoving, roughness, even in jest. (some women like it; but it's a BIG nono for me)
* acting as chauffer for an ex-girlfriend. Once is fine if she has a flat tire, but then she really needs to find someone else.
* excessive drinking, alcohol breath. I hate 'kissing a liquor bottle' Ew.
* degrading jokes. If you wouldn't tell it to your mother, don't tell it to me.
* not believing me when I say that I can't dance. And pressing me to anyway. (hint: if you don't take simple no's earlier, what kind of no's are you not going to accept later??)
* Not taking 'no' for an answer. If I'm not yet ready to give out my phone number, and a guy presses me, he will NEVER get it. I have been known, however, to give him the number of my gynecologist ;)

Hey, why does it say I'm an 'upright'...when I'm clearly sitting down??

I don't know, sometimes it just seems appropriate. If you're with your partner, tied up, and he's doing things that are overwhelmingly pleasurable, moaning "Stop..." but clearly enjoying it can be VERY erotic.

I for one find play-resistance a huge turn on. I love feeling like I "fought back" a little, but in the end had to submit to his sheer masculinity. I *DON'T* mean actually being raped... but the fantasy is very powerful.

Caveat: this would generally be with a known partner or at least someone who knows what to expect, right? Not someone you just met who might not understand that you are playing.

A damn good question, if I was with a woman I didn't know too well and she said stop, then that's it, we're done for the night, all over.

Then again I have this near morbid fear of being accused of rape, it's hard to explain.

I don't think it'd be hard to explain the fear. I should think it'd be one of the worst things that could happen to a man-that his life would hang on the words of a (possibly) crazy woman.

My response to your initial post:
is in NO WAY whatsoever taking it personally, or getting defensive. In fact, it is classic textbook "Not Getting Defensive" and "Not Taking It Personally". Which is what solidifies my position of seriously questioning your world view/perception of women.

A BIG FAT wallet!!!!

Are you another one of these guys who keeps getting rejected even though you have such a great personality? :lol:

I've never seen a big wallet give a good back rub. Or slow dance. Or watch a sunset with me. So, no, they don't count.

The specific situation I was describing applies to a known partner yes.

If it's someone I just met... I don't know. If I'm aroused and really like the guy, sometimes I might moan stop and not mean "we're done here". It might mean "let's slow down" or something. If I moan "Stop...", and a guy takes a step back (like say going back to kissing me again), chances are in a few minutes I'll be begging him to ravish me.

I know that might sound confusing to a guy... and I really don't mean to make things any harder for you. Sometimes you really have to watch her body language and her eyes, and figure out whether she's firmly telling you to piss off, or whether she wants you to slow down because she's not ready to go to the next step physically. Yet.

If in doubt, then yes, stopping is the safest option. Maybe a good question is to ask "Do you want me to slow down, or stop altogether?"

Yes, I know of at least two people who have had their lives ruined by rape allegations.

I wish we women weren't so complicated. I'm not trying to stir shit here, I'm just trying to tell it like how it is (or at least how it is to me).

And this is why there are safe-words. :)

Exactly. The best situations are the ones where you can't even remember the safe word because you're having such a wild time. :crazy:

a nice smile on a man, if i like his smiling face i'd want to make him smile all the time :thumbsup:

C'mon I know I can't say it is a 100% certainty that ALL women find the cash thing attractive but the vast majority of women who take the high road and say it "doesn't matter" are lying. Secretly you factor in the monetary peice fairly heavily in making a decision on a love interest. Two guys are just about the same in all characteristics one would use to judge a prospective mate. One guy struggles with finding his niche in life and goes from job to job every few years without making much a a professional impact and the other is a successful physician who makes loads of cash..... tell me with a straight face a women would pick anyone but the physician. Taking it a step further I would propose that even if the poor guy was say a 7 (attractiveness ratings out of 10) and the rich guy was a 5 the rich guy would get a few extra points because of the fat bank account. And no I wasn't one of those guys who got rejected and is holding a grudge.... I just think the hyprocrisy in what people say theoretically and what actually translates to practice, in this case, will speak to validation of my point. OK let the hate responses start in force.......and keep in mind why would weighting cash flow as a major deciding factor in a guy be any different than that of how attractive he is?? Aren't any "top ten" type wish lists for a new mate subjective?? I may put how attrative a woman is as my top criteria and others may put it lower down the list. Some may feel I am shallow for using my criteria as opposed to being PC and saying a wonderful personality or a great sense of humor. Ladies if you want a guy who is loaded then speak up and liberate yourself!!!!!:paranoid:

So is there no such thing as love?

Love can be learned

And I thought I was cynical.

Then again, I am living proof of the fallacy of your argument. :)

Rich men, including physicians, can go fuck themselves. I have been known to NOT date men who either make, or plan to make, a lot of money. I typically lose all interest in talking with someone if I discover that they are wealthy. It is quite possibly the last thing on my list of preferences. I am not saying that I would have dated someone who sat on his ass all day and didn't work, nor am I saying that money isn't a good and practical thing to have (for both men and women), but it IS a shitty thing to base a relationship on.

To me, wealth breeds arrogance, causes people to take things (and relationships) for granted, and causes an escalated view of oneself and one's class status. Makes you forget how the vast majority of humankind lives on a daily basis, which is a very bad thing in my opinion. Total disconnection from the world at large.

Also, wealth usually means the guy has to work at least 10-12 hours a day to keep that income, which I would NEVER put up with. I have made that very clear to my husband, especially as we have many friends (guys and girls) who fly internationally for work every week and are constantly away from their partners. Big incomes, sure, but I would go insane with someone doing that (or myself doing that).

My dating preferences in the past have always been solidly middle-class or below, and that was by conscious choice. I got to know my husband (before he was my husband) without a clue of his income/class status until quite a while into the relationship. So no, sorry to burst your little wallet-bubble, but money means shit to me in terms of what a man can offer.

And yes, I realize that I am making vast generalizations about rich men, and that not all of them are assholes... but this is in response to the person making vast generalizations about women's view of rich men, and it's my opinion anyway. This kind of shit pisses me off.

Me, too.

me three

and I can say with a straight face....I wouldnt pick the physician

this thread is asking what makes a man sexy. i don't see how money can make a man sexy. look at Bill Gates, would you call him sexy?

I would argue that in "general" new money is more likely to be like what you have described, whereas old money not so much. Self made rich people tend to take a much harsher outlook on those who are not as equally successful as they are. The "I did it through hard work" angle, as opposed to those who always had it.


I find it interesting that you quantify 10 to 12 hours a day.

I'm hardly rich, however, my usual day is 10 hours at least. On some weeks, I simple have to work 70 or 80 hours to meet the completely unrealistic work load / deadlines that my employer imposes. If I don't like it - there's the door. The only problem would be that every other employer would operate in (nay, let me rephrase - does in fact operate) the same way.

I am certainly not alone.

I do not get paid for any additional time spent over and above 8 hours a day. There is NO LAW that mandates my employer to pay me per hour, or pay me overtime. They pay me a yearly salary divided by 26 every 2 weeks regardless of the hours I put in. It's simply required that you finish your project on time and on budget and working longer hours is a given or you don' t have a job. Every week, I have to do a timesheet and I MUST bill 40 hours of billable hours. The only exception is proposals which are billed as business development, or education (which is rare). Meetings and such are on our own time. Development is done at lunch time.

I've also done the travelling thing for a long time. 2003 was my last year doing it because it is a killer. There is NO romance in travelling for work whatsoever. It's a bit of fun at first, but that wears thin after a few weeks. I will agree that it is a relationship killer.

The thing is, my company does not pay anyone any premium money to travel. You get your regular salary, regardless of the time you put in, regardless of whether or not you have to travel for work.

It's simply the way it is.

Why not...

He's confident (obviously)

He has a sense of humour (I've heard him speak and he does have a sense of humour)

He's physically fit (he's not overweight in the least)

He's definitely intelligent. (obviously)

He dresses well for the most part. (He's always dressed well when I see him.)

He definitly has passion and integrity. (A huge presence in the philantropy community - 3'rd world, AIDS, charity. Time's person of the year.)

By all the previously mentioned characteristics of what the women on here have posted about what they find sexy in a man - Bill fits the bill.

Why are we still talking about how much your life experiences suck? Also, Bill Gates is too old.

OK, I'll rise to the challenge. Here are sexy and unsexy things that you can notice within 5 minutes.

Sexy:
-My age or pretty close
-Displays of affection; if I see a man pat his friend on the shoulder or hug his dog, he gets points with me.
-Nice full lips
-Soft, touchable hair
-Expressive face; don't speak in monotone
-Size and height; at least as big as me
-Smell good, and I don't mean cologne, I mean natural smell
-Cute sweaters and well-fitting jeans
-Generally I care less about looking at men and more about touching them. If they look like they would feel good to touch or hold, I don't care too much about "prettiness".

Not sexy:
-Skinny men (skinny men are bony and don't feel good)
-Men with no hair (they are clammy)
-Socks, ever. I know they're necessary but I don't have to like them.
-Excessively loud, coarse, or grating voice
-Dirty teeth
-Standing too close when we first meet, leaning into my space, talking too loud, or generally being pushy
-Making fun of my dog. I used to have a Sheltie and anyone who laughed about "drop-kicking" her, using her as a mop, or expressed annoyance with her lost major points. Now I have a tervuren and everyone is either afraid of her or thinks she is beautiful so it's not such a problem, but I remember!

confidence is good, sense of humour is subjective because different people have different ideas of what they find funny. intelligence goes without saying. he didn't look too physically fit last time i checked, i know he's not obese but he's not fit either. i'm very picky about my clothes and i like to dress in lots of different styles, i'd like a man who could carry off different looks (more than just, smart or casual) with ease. Gates may dress well in your eyes but not too good in mine. sure he's a charitable man, that's always a plus but trust me, he may look good on paper, but it's not about looking good on paper. sexy is more than just words and numbers on a paycheque.

if there was a 100 sexiest men in USA poll, i know magazines and stuff have those kind of things every year, bill gates would be no where near that list

I think Bill Gates is sexy. :)

Ah, but that's more about how he LOOKS now isn't it.

it is about his looks, but it's not more about his looks, no more than any of the other qualities you've mentioned.

plus, good looks is a lot sexier than money