No sex please, we're daddy's little girls (news link) - Page 3 - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

Charlatan · 03-30-2007, 07:58 PM

Sad thing, Sage, is I don't think you are far off the truth.

mixedmedia · 03-30-2007, 08:03 PM

Yes. I think that's a rather cogent observation, LS.

Lady Sage · 03-30-2007, 08:13 PM

Sometimes dry wit and a sharp tongue are far too close to the truth.

Willravel · 03-30-2007, 08:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mixedmedia

...cogent...

5 point word bonus

mixedmedia · 03-30-2007, 08:30 PM

Yay! Now I've almost got enough points for that set of Ginsu knives I've been wanting.

Bill O'Rights · 03-30-2007, 08:44 PM

Orrrrrrr...you take those points...and trade them for what's behind door number 3!!

Grasshopper Green · 03-30-2007, 09:02 PM

If my dad had done this with me.....I'd have been creeped out. I was raised in a very conservative area and although I was never baptized...I thought sex before marriage was wrong (until I moved away to college). This STILL would have creeped me out.

Infinite_Loser · 03-31-2007, 01:35 AM

I thought about commenting on this thread before, but I ignored it. I do, however, have something to say now: No one should care how someone else decides to raise their children unless it breaks the law. If you don't agree with it, then raise your children differently. What's odd to you isn't odd to someone else and vice versa. It's simple, really.

1010011010 · 03-31-2007, 03:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Infinite_Loser

I thought about commenting on this thread before, but I ignored it. I do, however, have something to say now: No one should care how someone else decides to raise their children unless it breaks the law. If you don't agree with it, then raise your children differently. What's odd to you isn't odd to someone else and vice versa. It's simple, really.

What the fuck?
The State exists to enforce the will of the people when the people are incapable of enforcing it via non-coercive means. There is no inherent correleation between legality and goodness, nor a lack of responsibility for the common citizen to offer judgment on community standards issues.

Just because it's not illegal for someone to teach their kids that women are objects and property doesn't mean the rest of us have to stand by twiddling our thumbs until Johnny grows twisted enough to rape the shit out of someone's daughter. Not that it matters- she was an unpure fornicating whore that didn't know her place.

You can preach a morality thats not illegal with little fear of State interference. And we can tell you (and your kids) that your not illegal morality is fucked in the head. It'll work itself out... unless, of course, we all go "Well it's not illegal... so I guess it must be A-Okay!"

Charlatan · 03-31-2007, 03:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Infinite_Loser

I thought about commenting on this thread before, but I ignored it. I do, however, have something to say now: No one should care how someone else decides to raise their children unless it breaks the law. If you don't agree with it, then raise your children differently. What's odd to you isn't odd to someone else and vice versa. It's simple, really.

I wonder how you would react if this was ceremony held by a group of homosexuals who wanted to pledge their 11-year-old child to vow of homosexuality?

Nothing illegal about that either.

Infinite_Loser · 03-31-2007, 03:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Charlatan

I wonder how you would react if this was ceremony held by a group of homosexuals who wanted to pledge their 11-year-old child to vow of homosexuality?

Nothing illegal about that either.

Honestly, I wouldn't care (For the reasons above). Also, it's important to note that on multiple occasions I have stated that I have no qualms with homosexuals in general or their right to exist.

Quote:

Originally Posted by 1010011010

Just because it's not illegal for someone to teach their kids that women are objects and property doesn't mean the rest of us have to stand by twiddling our thumbs until Johnny grows twisted enough to rape the shit out of someone's daughter. Not that it matters- she was an unpure fornicating whore that didn't know her place.

Do you have any proof that these girls suffer more so than their counterparts? I'd ask you how you came to your conclusions, but I have a feeling that they're assumptions more than anything else... Anyway, I'd like to use some of the more popular rhetoric found around here: You should focus on your own family. I'm fairly sure that you, assuming you're a parent, wouldn't want someone else trying to tell you how you should and shouldn't raise your kids.

That'll be all I'm going to say on the subject.

Charlatan · 03-31-2007, 04:03 AM

Again, I am not going to suggest that someone should make a law against the people or ban them from their practice. At the same time, I am not going to give them a pass just because they think they are doing right by their children.

What they are doing borders on abusive behaviour... borders on it. I do focus on my family and I would hope that the example I provide will prevent my children and anyone who cares to learn from my example that the sorts of behavior exhibited by the parents in the OP are not only not necessary but wrong-headed in the worst way.

1010011010 · 03-31-2007, 04:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Infinite_Loser

Do you have any proof that these girls suffer more so than their counterparts?

Why do you suppose leaving a girl unchaperoned in a room with a male not-of-her-family was damaging to her "honor", back in the day when this type of not illegal teaching was the norm?

Female types are valuable for more than (and mainly other than) the little patch of real-estate between their legs. If someone wants to teach their kids that, sure, hey, it's not illegal, but it sure is fucked up.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Infinite_Loser

I'd ask you how you came to your conclusions, but I have a feeling that they're assumptions more than anything else... Anyway, I'd like to use some of the more popular rhetoric found around here: You should focus on your own family. I'm fairly sure that you, assuming you're a parent, wouldn't want someone else trying to tell you how you should and shouldn't raise your kids.

Sorry to disappoint you, but reality checks are good things. You get comfortable in doing things a certain way. When someone questions the way you do things, maybe you re-examine your operations and go "Bah, fuck that guy. He should mind his own fucking business." or maybe you go "Huh, maybe it is time to change that."

venusinfurs · 03-31-2007, 08:09 AM

if these people are so gungo-ho about chastity, why not make the young men also take a pledge. The whole "boys will be boys" crap is something i am sick of hearing and if you want people to be "sexually pure", well besides with lesbians, you need more than just a girl for sex to happen...they use*gasp* guys to create "sex". I am just sick of the whole only go apeshit crazy to keep the female pure and not doing the same thing to the male.
patriarchal religious double standard. bah.

BTW-i dont believe in any of this abstinace only sex ed, some people will have the sex and they will be unprepared for the consequesnces if they don'nt know much about the protection and the cotraception, its not good to only hear one side of the story..

mixedmedia · 03-31-2007, 08:16 AM

Yes, a ceremony with a young man pledging his chastity to his mother might be interesting.

Lady Sage · 03-31-2007, 08:32 AM

I would pay admission to see that.

But the mom has to be holding a butcher knife.

Infinite_Loser · 03-31-2007, 02:47 PM

I'm going to go against my original word and make one more reply.

Quote:

Originally Posted by 1010011010

Female types are valuable for more than (and mainly other than) the little patch of real-estate between their legs. If someone wants to teach their kids that, sure, hey, it's not illegal, but it sure is fucked up. Sorry to disappoint you, but reality checks are good things. You get comfortable in doing things a certain way.

I'd like to know how you came to the conclusion that this is what the message that they're trying to convey to their children. It seems to be, at best, a blatant misrepresentation of the actual purpose/intent of such ceremonies.

Have you ever talked to someone who has taken this vow to be able to make the assumptions that you are now? I'd be willing to bet that you haven't.

Quote:

When someone questions the way you do things, maybe you re-examine your operations and go "Bah, fuck that guy. He should mind his own fucking business." or maybe you go "Huh, maybe it is time to change that."

I asked you this before, yet I received no answer. On what basis do you say that these parents should change their policies? Are there any studies which suggest that the girls grow up to be mentally unstable? Are there any studies which suggest that the girls are prone to more physical abuse than their counterparts? Is there absolutely any evidence which would show that the girls are, in fact, worse off than other girls who don't partake in such a ceremony?

I'll answer the question for you: No, there's not. Simply because you don't agree with the way other parents decide to raise their children doesn't mean that there's anything wrong with their methods. Hell, there could be something wrong with your methods of parenting (Assuming you are a parent).

DaveOrion · 03-31-2007, 03:32 PM

Now Infinite Loser, how dare you go against popular opinion. You're supposed to say 'thats creepy' like everyone else. Fall in line like a good little soldier and maintain the status quo.

World's King · 03-31-2007, 03:38 PM

I've slept with all 88%

DaveOrion · 03-31-2007, 03:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by World's King

I've slept with all 88%

OMG!! You Bastard!! All 88% are my daughters!! So I'm a slut, I sleep with every Christian Fundamentalist female I can find, sue me.

abaya · 03-31-2007, 04:31 PM

You know, it's funny... between the ages of 14 and 20, I think I would have been in complete and total agreement with this whole thing, understanding it and supporting it from the inside out. I wore a purity ring (of my own choosing, as was my faith) to my senior prom, though there was no need for it since my date was just as evangelical and repressed as I was. All of this was of my own choice, and certainly after I entered puberty.

Additionally, my dad converted after I did, and we were even baptised together (in a lake, with a bunch of other people from the church), and it meant the world to us as a father/daughter at that time (though granted, that act had absolutely NOTHING to do with sex/virginity, and only to do with the church and declaring our faith in public). I can see the innocence of the father-daughter bonding in that faith-related sense, but NOT as it's related to purity and guarding of the daughter... to me, that can be nothing other than patriarchal, no matter how good the intentions are. I agree with the other posters about the lack of mother-son rituals, and wonder why the parents have to be involved at all... why not just allow the children to make their own commitments? Do evangelicals want some kind of confirmation or bar/bat mitzvah equivalent, is that it?

Anyway, as much as I can understand the whole thing as someone who used to live inside that world and believed in its ideals to the hilt... now, several years on from that stage of faith in my life, long after having shed my virginity (I like that term, whoever used it) and certainly before I got married... the whole thing seems completely asinine. I can't say that it's creepy, because again, I lived that world and it seemed like we were all doing the best thing for ourselves as we perceived God wanted us to do, holy vessels and all that... but it borders on some kind of neuroses regarding the sheer reality of being human, and I probably would have felt pretty weird about my dad doing something this intimate with me (especially if I was actually a teenager and thinking about sex).

Probably too late at night for me to make much sense here, but I guess my summary is that yes, I understand why people do this, and there are certainly worse things that parents could do (or not do) with their children... but it's something I wouldn't be caught dead doing with my own future children, nor would I particularly want them to be exposed (via friends) to anything of the sort... at least not without some parental guidance on my part!!

DaveOrion · 03-31-2007, 04:59 PM

Very enlightening abaya. Do you mind if I ask you a few questions??? You don't have to reply, the last thing I'd want is for you to feel like you're on trial, being cross examined by the prosecution. That cant feel very good.

Anyway, did you feel guilty when you broke your vow & do you feel this damaged you in any way???

abaya · 04-01-2007, 12:41 AM

Dave, no problem at all with questions, though I don't want it to turn into a threadjack. I suppose it's related, though, so I'll answer for now... but if you want to extend the discussion further, we should probably move it to PM's.

Well, "breaking my vow" was a bit more complicated than the usual... when I was 24, after many years of wanting to wait until marriage, I came to the conclusion that it wasn't for me to wait until marriage anymore... that basically I would like to have sex with someone I really loved, but it didn't have to be on my wedding night. This was after a LONG time of thinking about it, talking with other people about it, and just deciding that this was what I wanted. It just didn't go along with my personality anymore, to "save" myself for something like that... I wanted to experience it, just like everyone else, and I didn't really believe in the difference between pure/impure anymore.

Now, things didn't go as planned. There's a thread somewhere in General Discussion where I went into great detail about what happened (can't remember the title at the moment), because basically I got very drunk with a poor choice of people and lost control of the whole situation, and ended up having sex with no one I would have ever had sex with if I was sober.

Some people saw this as a direct result of all my years of oppression, that of course I went "wild" and had sex the first time in a way that no sober, mature person would have chosen to do. I haven't yet decided if this is true, or if I simply made a bad choice to get too drunk one night, and someone was in the position to take advantage of that situation. Honestly, it doesn't really matter, because it was the same result in the end... I was no longer a virgin.

Despite the shock of the means of shedding my virginity, however, in some way it gave me a kind of freedom that I hadn't had before. To answer your question, I think the *way* I had sex for the first time did damage me emotionally in some way, mostly because I was blacked out and could not even remember the event... but the fact that I had had sex outside of marriage was not what damaged me. After so many years of loading so much pressure on that first time, and then to not even be able to remember it... well, you can imagine how sad I was about that.

So I was sad, and angry. But I would not say that I felt guilty, as you asked in your first question. I felt negative about the manner in which it happened, but in some ways I felt positive that the whole thing was over, and that I could now move on and have sex and learn to enjoy it, without the burden of being married.

In the end, I met a very nice boy soon after this whole thing, and we got together and decided to have sex... it was his first time (he was the same age as me), and in my mind, it was pretty much my first time too, at least mentally. I did feel some minor guilt, I think mostly as a residual from my evangelical past, but as a 24 year old woman I felt very justified in making my own sexual choices, being safe about them, and moving on with my life. So I did.

And ended up marrying that man 2.5 years later

, which was kind of ironic... we would have been a good case for the evangelicals to be proud of, in that sense! But my husband is an atheist, and I am agnostic at this point, and this is just what we chose for our lives. There is nothing divine or pure or sinful or impure about any of it. It just IS. And I like it that way.

1010011010 · 04-01-2007, 06:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Infinite_Loser

I'd like to know how you came to the conclusion that this is what the message that they're trying to convey to their children. It seems to be, at best, a blatant misrepresentation of the actual purpose/intent of such ceremonies.

What they're intending/trying/purporting to do and what they're actually doing are not necessarily the same thing.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Infinite_Loser

Have you ever talked to someone who has taken this vow to be able to make the assumptions that you are now? I'd be willing to bet that you haven't.

Based on the observation of various other comments in this thread, such conclusions and interpretations are not an uncommon result.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Infinite_Loser

I asked you this before, yet I received no answer. On what basis do you say that these parents should change their policies?

On the basis that they re-examine their policies in light of objections from their community and decide to agree with the points being made.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Infinite_Loser

Are there any studies which suggest that the girls grow up to be mentally unstable? Are there any studies which suggest that the girls are prone to more physical abuse than their counterparts? Is there absolutely any evidence which would show that the girls are, in fact, worse off than other girls who don't partake in such a ceremony?

Why do you think the recipients of the message sent by such ceremonies is limited only to the girls who participate? If you see that your sister is primarily valued for her "purity"... how does that shape your view of girls that aren't "pure"?

Plaid13 · 04-01-2007, 01:09 PM

Maybe if parents would teach kids about sex instead of just teaching the kids that sex is evil and wrong we might end up having less 14 year olds pumping out kids with no way to take care of them. Maybe even something absurd like some more safe sex less stds. Having a little girl promise she wont have sex till shes married dosnt do anything but make her a even bigger liar. Denial dosnt work even if you have a ceramony for it.

Lady Sage · 04-01-2007, 04:02 PM

You test drive a car before you buy it. I test drove Pan, liked the drive (after making him wait an agonizing amount of time and be tested for STD's) and we will be married a month from today!

Infinite_Loser · 04-01-2007, 08:45 PM

*Wonders why he bothers*

Quote:

Originally Posted by 1010011010

What they're intending/trying/purporting to do and what they're actually doing are not necessarily the same thing.

I noticed how sly you were at avoiding my question, so I'll ask you again: I'd like to know how you came to the conclusion that this is the message that they're trying to convey to their children. It seems to be, at best, a blatant misrepresentation of the actual purpose/intent of such ceremonies.

Quote:

Based on the observation of various other comments in this thread, such conclusions and interpretations are not an uncommon result.

I hate to break it to you, but the conclusions of outsiders looking in aren't always accurate. Until you have some type of statistical evidence which proves that these girls are worse off than their non-pledging counters-- Or even testimonies from the girls themselves which show that they suffer mentally, physically and emotionally as a result of these rituals-- Then the only thing you have to work with is baseless assumptions. That's the bottom line.

Quote:

On the basis that they re-examine their policies in light of objections from their community and decide to agree with the points being made.

Why should they re-examine their parenting policies? Because you don't like them? How about not?

Quote:

Why do you think the recipients of the message sent by such ceremonies is limited only to the girls who participate? If you see that your sister is primarily valued for her "purity"... how does that shape your view of girls that aren't "pure"?

I have to ask... If the roles were reversed and the rituals strictly mother-son, do you believe that as many people would care? I'd be willing to bet that they wouldn't. It's been proven that good father/daughter relationships drastically decrease destructive behavior in women, and I believe that's what these parents are trying to accomplish. We'll all need to wait a few years to see how these girls turn out compared to their counterparts. Until then, it's useless trying to tell someone else that they're doing the wrong thing.

CookieCutter · 04-01-2007, 10:55 PM

this topic reminds me of an article I read in my University's paper. It was about getting married while still in school and basically couples came out and said "well we don't believe in sex/living together before marriage due to our religion, so we got married", not in those words of course but that pretty much sums it up.

This seems so twisted to me because these are the same people that believe marriage is a holy sacrament, and they are entering into so they can have sex.

Philangicality · 04-01-2007, 11:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bill O'Rights

That's not creepy. That's just...weird.
No emotional problems in the making there. No sir.

Ya, those were my thoughts exactly. This just seems way too inviting for child molestation by some power hungry old dude.

abaya · 04-02-2007, 12:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Infinite_Loser

Or even testimonies from the girls themselves which show that they suffer mentally, physically and emotionally as a result of these rituals-- Then the only thing you have to work with is baseless assumptions.

I'm just one data point here, but I'll give you my testimony...(which I already started, earlier in the thread).

It was destructive for me to pin so much of my self-worth on my virginity... the whole idea of "purity" is royally fucked up, and it screwed with my head big time. Even though in some ways I am glad that I didn't start having sex until I was 24 (mostly because I didn't get pregnant or any serious STD's, but that was by sheer chance after my first time), you must agree that the way in which I--and no doubt, many of the girls I went to school with who made similar promises, then broke them... or, who got married very young, to have sex, and are now divorced before age 30--left my virginity was NOT ideal in any way.

I do believe that if I had not been socially and spiritually led to believe that virginity was worth waiting for marriage, I would have been better equipped to make my own decision at a younger age, building up my self-confidence from inside rather than from an external body of people (e.g. church, youth group, etc). I hope my own future children have no such pressure on them, whether from us as parents or their own peer group.

Certainly, I think it's best to wait until a mature age to start having sex, and to do it safely... that is in the best interest of any child, and I will promote that idea with my own future children. But to link that to a spiritual sense of "purity" and acceptance within a group of people... that's just complete and total mind-fuckage.

And I WAS an insider, as inside as you can possibly get... up to my eyeballs in Jesus-loving evangelicalism. This whole issue was one of the numerous factors that pushed me away from the entire deal... the utter lack of common sense, no matter how well-intentioned or God-centered it appeared to be.

1010011010 · 04-02-2007, 10:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Infinite_Loser

I noticed how sly you were at avoiding my question, so I'll ask you again:

My answer was, to the best of my ability, and attempt to correct your misunderstanding of my position. Under such correction, you're welcome to ask your question in a way that actually applies to my comments. In the spirit of participation, though...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Infinite_Loser

I'd like to know how you came to the conclusion that this is the message that they're trying to convey to their children. It seems to be, at best, a blatant misrepresentation of the actual purpose/intent of such ceremonies.

I haven't come to the conclusion that this is what they're trying to convey to their children. Can't very well tell you how to come to that conclusion, having not come to it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Infinite_Loser

I hate to break it to you, but the conclusions of outsiders looking in aren't always accurate.

I hate to break it to you, but the conclusions of insiders looking out aren't always accurate, either. Or of former insiders looking back in. Or of former outsiders looking out. We've got a rather broad cross-section of folks looking at this and going "That's kinda creepy.", though... but who knows, maybe we're all wrong in our collected experience of human nature and Jesus will guide these folks through.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Infinite_Loser

Until you have some type of statistical evidence which proves that these girls are worse off than their non-pledging counters-- Or even testimonies from the girls themselves which show that they suffer mentally, physically and emotionally as a result of these rituals-- Then the only thing you have to work with is baseless assumptions. That's the bottom line.

Considering than the link that started this has already pointed out that 88% of these girls will turn out to be faithless whores, anyway, who cares what happens to them?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Infinite_Loser

Why should they re-examine their parenting policies? Because you don't like them? How about not?

They should re-examine their parenting policies because the criticism they have received provides previously unconsidered information that may lead to different conclusions about their current policies. Having made such re-examination, they may continue with with policy unchanged, adapt to counter the previously unaccounted for information, or completely reconsider their current course.

I, of course, am infallible on the subject of child-rearing, and will brook no argument on the subject. If I tell a parent to change their ways, they had better... or else they're permanently damaging their child's future mental health.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Infinite_Loser

I have to ask... If the roles were reversed and the rituals strictly mother-son, do you believe that as many people would care? I'd be willing to bet that they wouldn't. It's been proven that good father/daughter relationships drastically decrease destructive behavior in women, and I believe that's what these parents are trying to accomplish. We'll all need to wait a few years to see how these girls turn out compared to their counterparts. Until then, it's useless trying to tell someone else that they're doing the wrong thing.

I know all about those girls with poor father/daughter relationships. Engaging in all manner of shocking hooligannery! Expressing opinions, writing fiction, wearing pants! And you should see the poor manner in which they keep house! You just try saying "Iron my shirt woman and bring me a sammich." and see the destructive behaviour begin. Truly a regrettable state. If only they'd had a better father/daughter relationship... then they'd know their place.

Rinndalir · 04-02-2007, 02:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by venusinfurs

if these people are so gungo-ho about chastity, why not make the young men also take a pledge.

Actually, I grew up in the Bible Belt and we had these when I was a teen, every one of us was supposed to sign them. They were a 'promise contract' or something like that. The idea was, you sign it and present it to your wife/husband on your wedding night (and they give theirs to you) as the ultimate wedding present, showing you had remained pure for that one person. Which is romantic and all, until you realize that the church (at least the one I went to) used it as a guilt trip on the teens - you don't want to break your vow to your future spouse (and God) do you?

This is really just a more elaborate version of it. It isn't new at all. Out of my old church youth group, I can't think of anyone who actually kept the pledge, guy or girl. I wouldn't expect my daughter to do this. I'm no longer involved in a church though.

mx5me · 04-02-2007, 03:56 PM

Thanks to the OP for posting this. I became aware of this recently and was both blown away and not surprised (simultaneously!).

There absolutely is the underlying message that the father owns the daughter until she's passed off to being the husband's property. The entire construct is manipulative in that the daughter gets to be the princess-for-the-day and go to a ball that is many little girls' dream. The sly punch comes when dad has her sign the paper and slip the ring on, both not age-appropriate things to do. Although she may not realize the full significance at the time, the framework for her future has been laid. Also, whoever said that the daughters can't exactly "opt out" is very correct, not that they could know better at those ages.

I don't believe that we have the right to tell other people how to raise their children, but you can't deny the writing on the wall.

LazyBoy · 04-02-2007, 08:27 PM

I'm abstinent and a Christian, and that stills seeks extremely odd to me...

-Will

MrFriendly · 04-02-2007, 10:30 PM

Some very well thought out and insightful posts there Abaya.

I think the thing that I would like to point out about all this, and something that Abaya touched on, is a matter of choice.

No 11 year old is not in the position to make a well informed decision as to weather they should sleep around or stay pure. But nor should they be committed to something they're really not going to have much understanding of at that age.

We all know teenagers have raging hormones and are going to want to fuck like rabbits, and for the most part, a majority of teenagers are still not going to be mature enough consider the consequences of being sexually active. But I know one thing, if you want teenagers to do something, just tell them they're forbidden to do it.

But if you're of a mature enough age and mind to make these decisions for yourself, you should be able to, and not still have this vow looming over your head to make you feel guilty. I just don't think it's fair to make someone make a promise that realistically they're going to seriously consider breaking later in life. What does that teach our young about the sanctity of vow, honor, and promise?

To be honest, there is far to much emphasis on sex in our lives as it is. I really don't this it's important or has any bearing on someone as a person whether they choose to stay a virgin till marriage, sleep around, don't sleep around, like anal, hate anal, or whatever. As long as you've made the choices about your sexuality that YOU want to make and are perfectly comfortable about them, than it's really no ones business except you and your sexual partners. At the end of the day, it only defines you as a person if you choose to make it define you. But if the only thing you can say about yourself as a person is that you can fuck, then you might need to have a good long stare at yourself in the mirror.

Any how, that's just my view on it all.

Poppinjay · 04-03-2007, 04:29 PM

Damn you all! All my fantasies of raising a daughter to spread my seed are ruined! (sarcasm)

I read this a few weeks back and my creepometer went up quite a dozen notches. But, then I read some of the comments that the fathers were giving. Honestly, I don't think these are men who have a weird affection for their offspring. Men have been shuffled to the backcourt on so many issues that I think any entry into social mores is viewed as weird.

So many people are trying so hard to hang on to what they think is right when it comes to their children. Some kids are brought up in liberal districts that believe in some of the things I cherish. Some are the opposite. I don't think this is the most horrible thing in the world.

That horror boy a couple of seasons ago who wandered into an amish school with some lube and a gun is the worst. He wasn't amish, he wasn't baptist. I'm not sure what the best option is in this case, but I think having dads who talk to their kids is a plus.

03-30-2007, 07:58 PM	#81 (permalink)
Charlatan Getting it. Super Moderator Location: Lion City	Sad thing, Sage, is I don't think you are far off the truth. __________________ "My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars." - Old Man Luedecke

03-30-2007, 08:03 PM	#82 (permalink)
mixedmedia has all her shots. Location: Florida	Yes. I think that's a rather cogent observation, LS. __________________ Most people go through life dreading they'll have a traumatic experience. Freaks were born with their trauma. They've already passed their test in life. They're aristocrats. - Diane Arbus PESSIMISM, n. A philosophy forced upon the convictions of the observer by the disheartening prevalence of the optimist with his scarecrow hope and his unsightly smile. - Ambrose Bierce

03-30-2007, 08:13 PM	#83 (permalink)
Lady Sage Mistress of Mayhem Location: Canton, Ohio	Sometimes dry wit and a sharp tongue are far too close to the truth. __________________ If only closed minds came with closed mouths. Minds are like parachutes, they function best when open. It`s Easier to Change a Condom Than a Diaper Yes, the rumors are true... I actually AM a Witch.

03-30-2007, 08:30 PM	#85 (permalink)
mixedmedia has all her shots. Location: Florida	Yay! Now I've almost got enough points for that set of Ginsu knives I've been wanting. __________________ Most people go through life dreading they'll have a traumatic experience. Freaks were born with their trauma. They've already passed their test in life. They're aristocrats. - Diane Arbus PESSIMISM, n. A philosophy forced upon the convictions of the observer by the disheartening prevalence of the optimist with his scarecrow hope and his unsightly smile. - Ambrose Bierce

03-30-2007, 08:44 PM	#86 (permalink)
Bill O'Rights will always be an Alyson Hanniganite Location: In the dust of the archives	Orrrrrrr...you take those points...and trade them for what's behind door number 3!! __________________ "I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do because I notice it always coincides with their own desires." - Susan B. Anthony "Hedonism with rules isn't hedonism at all, it's the Republican party." - JumpinJesus It is indisputable that true beauty lies within...but a nice rack sure doesn't hurt.

03-30-2007, 09:02 PM	#87 (permalink)
Grasshopper Green ...is a comical chap Location: Where morons reign supreme	If my dad had done this with me.....I'd have been creeped out. I was raised in a very conservative area and although I was never baptized...I thought sex before marriage was wrong (until I moved away to college). This STILL would have creeped me out. __________________ "They say that patriotism is the last refuge to which a scoundrel clings; steal a little and they throw you in jail, steal a lot and they make you king" Formerly Medusa

03-31-2007, 01:35 AM	#88 (permalink)
Infinite_Loser Junkie Location: Lake Mary, FL	I thought about commenting on this thread before, but I ignored it. I do, however, have something to say now: No one should care how someone else decides to raise their children unless it breaks the law. If you don't agree with it, then raise your children differently. What's odd to you isn't odd to someone else and vice versa. It's simple, really. __________________ I believe in equality; Everyone is equally inferior to me. Last edited by Infinite_Loser; 03-31-2007 at 01:52 AM..

03-31-2007, 04:03 AM	#92 (permalink)
Charlatan Getting it. Super Moderator Location: Lion City	Again, I am not going to suggest that someone should make a law against the people or ban them from their practice. At the same time, I am not going to give them a pass just because they think they are doing right by their children. What they are doing borders on abusive behaviour... borders on it. I do focus on my family and I would hope that the example I provide will prevent my children and anyone who cares to learn from my example that the sorts of behavior exhibited by the parents in the OP are not only not necessary but wrong-headed in the worst way. __________________ "My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars." - Old Man Luedecke

03-31-2007, 08:09 AM	#94 (permalink)
venusinfurs Tilted	if these people are so gungo-ho about chastity, why not make the young men also take a pledge. The whole "boys will be boys" crap is something i am sick of hearing and if you want people to be "sexually pure", well besides with lesbians, you need more than just a girl for sex to happen...they usegasp guys to create "sex". I am just sick of the whole only go apeshit crazy to keep the female pure and not doing the same thing to the male. patriarchal religious double standard. bah. BTW-i dont believe in any of this abstinace only sex ed, some people will have the sex and they will be unprepared for the consequesnces if they don'nt know much about the protection and the cotraception, its not good to only hear one side of the story..

03-31-2007, 08:16 AM	#95 (permalink)
mixedmedia has all her shots. Location: Florida	Yes, a ceremony with a young man pledging his chastity to his mother might be interesting. __________________ Most people go through life dreading they'll have a traumatic experience. Freaks were born with their trauma. They've already passed their test in life. They're aristocrats. - Diane Arbus PESSIMISM, n. A philosophy forced upon the convictions of the observer by the disheartening prevalence of the optimist with his scarecrow hope and his unsightly smile. - Ambrose Bierce

03-31-2007, 08:32 AM	#96 (permalink)
Lady Sage Mistress of Mayhem Location: Canton, Ohio	I would pay admission to see that. But the mom has to be holding a butcher knife. __________________ If only closed minds came with closed mouths. Minds are like parachutes, they function best when open. It`s Easier to Change a Condom Than a Diaper Yes, the rumors are true... I actually AM a Witch.

03-31-2007, 03:32 PM	#98 (permalink)
DaveOrion Playing With Fire Location: Disaster Area	Now Infinite Loser, how dare you go against popular opinion. You're supposed to say 'thats creepy' like everyone else. Fall in line like a good little soldier and maintain the status quo. __________________ *Syriana*...have you ever tried liquid MDMA?....Liquid MDMA? No....Arash, when you wanna do this?.....After prayer...

03-31-2007, 03:38 PM	#99 (permalink)
World's King Here Location: Denver City Denver	I've slept with all 88% __________________ heavy is the head that wears the crown

03-31-2007, 04:31 PM	#101 (permalink)
abaya Location: Iceland	You know, it's funny... between the ages of 14 and 20, I think I would have been in complete and total agreement with this whole thing, understanding it and supporting it from the inside out. I wore a purity ring (of my own choosing, as was my faith) to my senior prom, though there was no need for it since my date was just as evangelical and repressed as I was. All of this was of my own choice, and certainly after I entered puberty. Additionally, my dad converted after I did, and we were even baptised together (in a lake, with a bunch of other people from the church), and it meant the world to us as a father/daughter at that time (though granted, that act had absolutely NOTHING to do with sex/virginity, and only to do with the church and declaring our faith in public). I can see the innocence of the father-daughter bonding in that faith-related sense, but NOT as it's related to purity and guarding of the daughter... to me, that can be nothing other than patriarchal, no matter how good the intentions are. I agree with the other posters about the lack of mother-son rituals, and wonder why the parents have to be involved at all... why not just allow the children to make their own commitments? Do evangelicals want some kind of confirmation or bar/bat mitzvah equivalent, is that it? Anyway, as much as I can understand the whole thing as someone who used to live inside that world and believed in its ideals to the hilt... now, several years on from that stage of faith in my life, long after having shed my virginity (I like that term, whoever used it) and certainly before I got married... the whole thing seems completely asinine. I can't say that it's creepy, because again, I lived that world and it seemed like we were all doing the best thing for ourselves as we perceived God wanted us to do, holy vessels and all that... but it borders on some kind of neuroses regarding the sheer reality of being human, and I probably would have felt pretty weird about my dad doing something this intimate with me (especially if I was actually a teenager and thinking about sex). Probably too late at night for me to make much sense here, but I guess my summary is that yes, I understand why people do this, and there are certainly worse things that parents could do (or not do) with their children... but it's something I wouldn't be caught dead doing with my own future children, nor would I particularly want them to be exposed (via friends) to anything of the sort... at least not without some parental guidance on my part!! __________________ And think not you can direct the course of Love; for Love, if it finds you worthy, directs your course. --Khalil Gibran

03-31-2007, 04:59 PM	#102 (permalink)
DaveOrion Playing With Fire Location: Disaster Area	Very enlightening abaya. Do you mind if I ask you a few questions??? You don't have to reply, the last thing I'd want is for you to feel like you're on trial, being cross examined by the prosecution. That cant feel very good. Anyway, did you feel guilty when you broke your vow & do you feel this damaged you in any way??? __________________ *Syriana*...have you ever tried liquid MDMA?....Liquid MDMA? No....Arash, when you wanna do this?.....After prayer...

04-01-2007, 12:41 AM	#103 (permalink)
abaya Location: Iceland	Dave, no problem at all with questions, though I don't want it to turn into a threadjack. I suppose it's related, though, so I'll answer for now... but if you want to extend the discussion further, we should probably move it to PM's. Well, "breaking my vow" was a bit more complicated than the usual... when I was 24, after many years of wanting to wait until marriage, I came to the conclusion that it wasn't for me to wait until marriage anymore... that basically I would like to have sex with someone I really loved, but it didn't have to be on my wedding night. This was after a LONG time of thinking about it, talking with other people about it, and just deciding that this was what I wanted. It just didn't go along with my personality anymore, to "save" myself for something like that... I wanted to experience it, just like everyone else, and I didn't really believe in the difference between pure/impure anymore. Now, things didn't go as planned. There's a thread somewhere in General Discussion where I went into great detail about what happened (can't remember the title at the moment), because basically I got very drunk with a poor choice of people and lost control of the whole situation, and ended up having sex with no one I would have ever had sex with if I was sober. Some people saw this as a direct result of all my years of oppression, that of course I went "wild" and had sex the first time in a way that no sober, mature person would have chosen to do. I haven't yet decided if this is true, or if I simply made a bad choice to get too drunk one night, and someone was in the position to take advantage of that situation. Honestly, it doesn't really matter, because it was the same result in the end... I was no longer a virgin. Despite the shock of the means of shedding my virginity, however, in some way it gave me a kind of freedom that I hadn't had before. To answer your question, I think the way I had sex for the first time did damage me emotionally in some way, mostly because I was blacked out and could not even remember the event... but the fact that I had had sex outside of marriage was not what damaged me. After so many years of loading so much pressure on that first time, and then to not even be able to remember it... well, you can imagine how sad I was about that. So I was sad, and angry. But I would not say that I felt guilty, as you asked in your first question. I felt negative about the manner in which it happened, but in some ways I felt positive that the whole thing was over, and that I could now move on and have sex and learn to enjoy it, without the burden of being married. In the end, I met a very nice boy soon after this whole thing, and we got together and decided to have sex... it was his first time (he was the same age as me), and in my mind, it was pretty much my first time too, at least mentally. I did feel some minor guilt, I think mostly as a residual from my evangelical past, but as a 24 year old woman I felt very justified in making my own sexual choices, being safe about them, and moving on with my life. So I did. And ended up marrying that man 2.5 years later , which was kind of ironic... we would have been a good case for the evangelicals to be proud of, in that sense! But my husband is an atheist, and I am agnostic at this point, and this is just what we chose for our lives. There is nothing divine or pure or sinful or impure about any of it. It just IS. And I like it that way. __________________ And think not you can direct the course of Love; for Love, if it finds you worthy, directs your course. --Khalil Gibran

04-01-2007, 01:09 PM	#105 (permalink)
Plaid13 I want a Plaid crayon	Maybe if parents would teach kids about sex instead of just teaching the kids that sex is evil and wrong we might end up having less 14 year olds pumping out kids with no way to take care of them. Maybe even something absurd like some more safe sex less stds. Having a little girl promise she wont have sex till shes married dosnt do anything but make her a even bigger liar. Denial dosnt work even if you have a ceramony for it.

04-01-2007, 04:02 PM	#106 (permalink)
Lady Sage Mistress of Mayhem Location: Canton, Ohio	You test drive a car before you buy it. I test drove Pan, liked the drive (after making him wait an agonizing amount of time and be tested for STD's) and we will be married a month from today! __________________ If only closed minds came with closed mouths. Minds are like parachutes, they function best when open. It`s Easier to Change a Condom Than a Diaper Yes, the rumors are true... I actually AM a Witch.

04-01-2007, 10:55 PM	#108 (permalink)
CookieCutter Upright	this topic reminds me of an article I read in my University's paper. It was about getting married while still in school and basically couples came out and said "well we don't believe in sex/living together before marriage due to our religion, so we got married", not in those words of course but that pretty much sums it up. This seems so twisted to me because these are the same people that believe marriage is a holy sacrament, and they are entering into so they can have sex.

04-02-2007, 03:56 PM	#113 (permalink)
mx5me Upright Location: MA	Thanks to the OP for posting this. I became aware of this recently and was both blown away and not surprised (simultaneously!). There absolutely is the underlying message that the father owns the daughter until she's passed off to being the husband's property. The entire construct is manipulative in that the daughter gets to be the princess-for-the-day and go to a ball that is many little girls' dream. The sly punch comes when dad has her sign the paper and slip the ring on, both not age-appropriate things to do. Although she may not realize the full significance at the time, the framework for her future has been laid. Also, whoever said that the daughters can't exactly "opt out" is very correct, not that they could know better at those ages. I don't believe that we have the right to tell other people how to raise their children, but you can't deny the writing on the wall. Last edited by mx5me; 04-02-2007 at 04:08 PM..

04-02-2007, 08:27 PM	#114 (permalink)
LazyBoy Insane Location: Memphis Area	I'm abstinent and a Christian, and that stills seeks extremely odd to me... -Will __________________ Life is nothing, everything.....and something in between...

04-02-2007, 10:30 PM	#115 (permalink)
MrFriendly Psycho Location: Australia	Some very well thought out and insightful posts there Abaya. I think the thing that I would like to point out about all this, and something that Abaya touched on, is a matter of choice. No 11 year old is not in the position to make a well informed decision as to weather they should sleep around or stay pure. But nor should they be committed to something they're really not going to have much understanding of at that age. We all know teenagers have raging hormones and are going to want to fuck like rabbits, and for the most part, a majority of teenagers are still not going to be mature enough consider the consequences of being sexually active. But I know one thing, if you want teenagers to do something, just tell them they're forbidden to do it. But if you're of a mature enough age and mind to make these decisions for yourself, you should be able to, and not still have this vow looming over your head to make you feel guilty. I just don't think it's fair to make someone make a promise that realistically they're going to seriously consider breaking later in life. What does that teach our young about the sanctity of vow, honor, and promise? To be honest, there is far to much emphasis on sex in our lives as it is. I really don't this it's important or has any bearing on someone as a person whether they choose to stay a virgin till marriage, sleep around, don't sleep around, like anal, hate anal, or whatever. As long as you've made the choices about your sexuality that YOU want to make and are perfectly comfortable about them, than it's really no ones business except you and your sexual partners. At the end of the day, it only defines you as a person if you choose to make it define you. But if the only thing you can say about yourself as a person is that you can fuck, then you might need to have a good long stare at yourself in the mirror. Any how, that's just my view on it all. __________________ You are not a slave

04-03-2007, 04:29 PM	#116 (permalink)
Poppinjay You had me at hello Location: DC/Coastal VA	Damn you all! All my fantasies of raising a daughter to spread my seed are ruined! (sarcasm) I read this a few weeks back and my creepometer went up quite a dozen notches. But, then I read some of the comments that the fathers were giving. Honestly, I don't think these are men who have a weird affection for their offspring. Men have been shuffled to the backcourt on so many issues that I think any entry into social mores is viewed as weird. So many people are trying so hard to hang on to what they think is right when it comes to their children. Some kids are brought up in liberal districts that believe in some of the things I cherish. Some are the opposite. I don't think this is the most horrible thing in the world. That horror boy a couple of seasons ago who wandered into an amish school with some lube and a gun is the worst. He wasn't amish, he wasn't baptist. I'm not sure what the best option is in this case, but I think having dads who talk to their kids is a plus. __________________ I think the Apocalypse is happening all around us. We go on eating desserts and watching TV. I know I do. I wish we were more capable of sustained passion and sustained resistance. We should be screaming and what we do is gossip. -Lydia Millet Last edited by Poppinjay; 04-03-2007 at 04:41 PM..