Nimetic

Here's the context....

I was just reading through a (TFP) thread that delved into the details of what consitutes rape. The usual stuff - ie did she resist, did she say no, when did she say no, was it "in" already etc.

Then I found myself on this thread.

Now my question is this. If kissing is more intimate than "rape" - then why is the legal and social stigma attached to penetrative sex (ok that's an ugly description, but you need to know what I mean) - and not to kissing without consent. Or to the continuation of a kiss, without consent.

I'm in a light-hearted mood, but there's some seriousness to this also. Surely it's not consistent in the modern world (forget tradition) to say that kisses are more intimate - but that vaginal sex is more significant legally.

Gilda

Forcibly kissing someone is an assault, possibly a sexual battery, but it causes much less harm than does rape, so it has a lesser stigma or penalty.

Murder also causes more harm than kissing someone. So does beating someone, burning their house down, stealing their car. That doesn't make those things more intimate than kissing.

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Nimetic

I don't think that this answers the question.

That is to say - (IMHO) you haven't explained why forced vaginal sex is more serious.

I'm asking for a logical explanation.

If we had to explain a set of morals to aliens from another planet, or to a hypothetical "articificial intelligence", on what basis would we argue that kissing is minor, and forced vaginal sex (the term rape is too ambiguous I think) is more serious?

abaya

I agree with Gilda in terms of rape.

But your question, Nimetic, is related to the one I asked previously on this thread (and which went unanswered, as far as I could tell).

Cheating-sex is not the same as rape-sex (in terms of physical harm/damage, which is what I assume Gilda meant by it being more harmful than kissing)... so how to answer my question?

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Gilda

It causes more harm.

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Nimetic

Sorry, I missed that - I sorta parachuted into the thread late. It's somewhat rude of me really.

So anyways, I'm a little stuck on this point. But then, I probably see conventional sex as being more intimate than kissing. Although sex for me usually includes kisses, blurring the whole topic.

All in all - it's really too complicated for a Sunday moring. Excuse me while I go wake up... drink more coffee etc.

Ourcrazymodern?

Kissing is more intimate, (intimacy, privacy): penetration we're designed to do or be done. (the "privates" need newer, more descriptive names)

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Gilda

For me, it again comes down to comparing stages of the relationship. Kissing another person would happen at an earlier stage in the relationship than having sex would.

But when I compare the intimacy of the kisses I share with Grace, and the intimacy involved in the sex, the kissing is, for me, more emotionally intimate.

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noodle

In reference to this particular question, my immediate answer was "kissing" due to my long-held belief that you can force someone to have intercourse with you that results in a certain level of pleasure, but it is far more difficult to force them to kissing with the same level of satisfaction. And then I started reading everyone's perceptions of the term "intimate". So I hit dicitonary.com. I think it really does depend on your definition or interpretation of "intimate."
For those who subscribe to the definition that states:
Then I'd assume they'd go with intercourse.
Those that choose
I could assume would go with kissing.
Maybe I'm off here, and a few glasses of wine would assume "yes", but that's kinda the argument that I came up with. If the OP was looking for a poll, it sounds like kissing wins.

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Ourcrazymodern?

...gotta like those warm friendships and close feelings!

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tms

kissing. breath. eyes so close. wetness. tongues. hearts touching? not a prelude to sex for me. it is the sex.
oral sex especially, is so far away. Kissing and sex are not in the same category.
tms

Prince

Heh. I don't know how anyone can really claim that kissing is more intimate. It can look hot on the silver screen, but there's intimate and then there is intimate.

If kissing is more intimate than intercourse, then why is it that kissing a hot co-worker can lead to a night of arguments, but fucking her will lead to divorce? Think about it.

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stevie667

Depends on the situation, but my jaw gets tired quicker than my abs.

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abaya

Precisely my point, and still no one other than Gilda has answered the question... been asked three times now.

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Sharon

I think it's possibly the fact that there is a social exclusivity value (and that it is something that is earned) attached to sex that is less attached to kissing, rather than that it's more intimate... I don't think that the two are necessarily always inextricably linked. We perceive sex as being something that takes place at a more advanced stage of a relationship, so for someone else to jump in and go straight to that "stage" is more upsetting.

It's a bit like someone cutting into your supermarket checkout line immediately in front of you. It's more annoying if they cut in when you have queued for ten minutes and you are almost at the checkout, than it is for them to cut in when you have just gotten into line.

I still maintain that kissing feels more intimate to me than sex does, in and of itself.

abaya

Interesting, Sharon... so a difference between social exclusivity/advancement of a relationship, and just plain intimacy. It makes sense, in a way.

I wonder, though, why so many people get frustrated with "sexless" marriages, even if they do lots of cuddling and kissing. If they are getting their "intimacy" kicks from kissing, then who needs sex? (Well, I do, but I find kissing and sex to be just as intimate!)

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Sharon

I think sex is more an animal instinct, I don't think the frustration with a "sexless" marriage is necessarily one of intimacy... it's closer to the frustration you have when you can't find a toilet, or you're depressed or annoyed for hormonal reasons, or you just have to have a coffee... I'm just thinking out loud here.