Jozrael

How about those of us who have zero experience? I'm among the youngest here at 18 1/2, and I haven't chosen to even have intercourse yet. I just recently changed my mind on some of my values and decided that oral and digital was okay with me, so that's a big step for me! :P. In the future, I have lots of ideas about what I'd like to do, but that all depends on who I'm with and their level of adventure. My current gf is fairly open, but totally against a lot of the things that I think I would want to explore in the future. Example, analingus. When I first got here to TFP 6 months ago, I was shocked that that happened! I had no idea. (Also, not looking at porn doesn't help the situation of my knowledge base). I thought it was disgusting and would never even think about it.

As I've come to mature on these boards and throw off society's impositions that tell me anything kinky is wrong (I had hardcore religious parents) my ick factor's gone down by like a factor of 10.

Um, long story short. What about those of us who have no experience, but would be willing in the future to try stuff? We've got ideas too . Granted, I've only been exposed to so much here, so I can't really introduce new ideas yet. But I can further discussion on some should the opportunity arise

EDIT: Heh, Abaya, yea, lotsa new posts

Shadow_fire

Hey, someone else almost the same age as me...thought I was alone in the age category...heh

Gilda

I don't think I've shied away from talking about being the bottom in a BDSM relationship with my wife. I don't go into a lot of detail other than in PM, and don't start threads about it because I'm not really very assertive in that way. Besides, I don't really expect that anyone's going to find it all that interesting that I enjoy being tied up and flogged or playing Mistress/subservient games with Grace.

There are also some shame issues I still need to work out. I know that there's nothing wrong with anything two people do together sexually so long as it's consensual and done safely, but actually talking about it in a semi-public place, even one that's semi-anonymous like TFP, still can make me a little uncomfortable, not because I fear judgment--well, there's a little of that, but because of my anxiety disorders, there's a little of that with everything I do--but because I have issues about being open about things with pretty much anyone but Grace, and to a lesser extent, my sister.

__________________
I'm against ending blackness. I believe that everyone has a right to be black, it's a choice, and I support that.

~Steven Colbert

shesus

I was not using jokes to distance myself. Spec said it better than I could. I was just showing you what could happen...being Devil's advocate so to speak. I can't say that this board has aided in my sexual growth. I've always been a pretty sexual person, I just don't talk about it unless I feel like it. But I never speak of anything in particular just because I think that it's personal between JJ and I.

I find that I was more opened talking about my sexual life when I was younger and before I was married. I would hang out with my friends and we would talk about all the ways we had sex and techniques we used and such. That was in my late teens-early 20s.

I just don't really have any strange expertise or kink that people don't already know about. I think kinky needs to be defined also. Abaya, I think kinky to you has become anything you haven't done (correct me if I'm wrong). As was mentioned earlier, people have been fondling, fucking, sucking, blowing, and restraining for centuries. It's hard to find something so out there that it hasn't been discussed before in detail.

My definition of kinky is something that turns me on. So some might think licking buttholes is kinky...I think it's disgusting. Some people might think toe sucking is kinky...I agree, especially if the tongue is in the gap by the big toe. But according to what has been mentioned here that isn't considered kinky by some people's definitions.

So, to begin this correctly I guess...what do you consider kinky?~or~What is your definition of kinky? And second: do you want this post to give you ideas about new things? Because it's hard to direct you without knowing what you like, what you have tried, and what you want to expand upon. I don't mind helping out with kinky ideas (whatever that means to you), but detailing my own sex life is not my thing.

__________________
Whatever did happen to your soul?
I heard you sold it

Choose Heaven for the weather and Hell for the company

Jozrael

Gilda, you're wrong about only one thing - others do find it interesting. I find it intensely interesting hearing about your relationship because I've never been exposed to one anything like it . To be honest in a nonkinky way, I've always wondered what it'd be like to sex change to a girl, and if they could do it in a 100% successful way (i.e. I'd have working organs down there), whether I'd think about taking the option, especially if it was reversible. You let me watch through your eyes and sorta vicariously experience it, and this influences my decision. Also, I live vicariously through other people on this board to try and see what I would like to try in the future, and my horizons have expanded tenfold.

abaya

No, it's mostly anything beyond what I was taught as an evangelical to be correct and godly behavior between two Christian adults. I am not joking. Which means that I identify a lot with Jozrael and Gilda in the religion and shame factors.

For me, kinky is often anything beyond anal sex (I thought that was IT, when it happened... nothing more beyond that). And I do a lot more than that, now. But it doesn't always turn me on, even if I do it... because I'm still trying to figure out what turns me on. So far, most of my turn-ons are extremely vanilla, and I guess I feel a bit awkward about that. I try new things, but a lot of it is going through the motions.

And no, this isn't about getting new ideas. Believe me, we have tons of ideas. Books, videos, toys, everything. It's just a matter of me actually feeling comfortable, let alone turned on, by some of these things.

EDIT: Jozrael, I think your posts are great, especially your explanation of how you have evolved here... it sounds a lot like my own journey. I appreciate what you have to say, experience or not.

__________________
And think not you can direct the course of Love;
for Love, if it finds you worthy, directs your course.
--Khalil Gibran

pig

abaya,

i don't think you should feel too awkward about having a lot of vanilla (ie, sub anal sex) practices turn you on. i'd posit that there is a reason that they are "vanilla." because a lot of people like to do it, over a long period of time.

oh, and gilda -- no reason to be ashamed, although of course i understand that you have particular issues that lead to such a result. its kind of weird for me to think about your situation - i can't really do much of the 'fantasy' stuff...i'm too much of an engineer to get into it, really. i know that i'm still the same little pigglet, regardless of whether i'm playing vlad the conqueror or frank ponch or whatnot. so i think its very interesting, if nothing else just from the recognition that its a reality in your life.

abaya, i think its funny that you consider anal vanilla. is that because of your evangelical roots / it's ok as long as its not in the vagina stuff? i know a lot of people for whom casual anal would be anathema.

__________________
You don't love me, you just love my piggy style

shesus

I went through a realization/struggle that maybe I was vanilla. Porn, magazines, and erotica played a huge part in that. I fought with this and tried many things. It got to the point where sex was more work that it was fun. I realized that we have a good enough repetoire for now and it's not worth making sex so much like work.

I said this before and it might have gotten lost in the rest of the post. However, if you are turned on and getting off and enjoying yourself, what does it matter if it's 'vanilla' by some people's standards? Yea, it's good to have some surprises and experiments now and then to keep the excitement or newness. However, I find that the good ole in and out, oral stimulation, and other 'vanilla' stand-bys are very enjoyable and don't have the stress of being in uncomfortable positions or situations.

I think that people think they are too normal and that has somehow become a bad thing. Why try to be comfortable with things if you don't have to?
Why are you pushing yourself to become kinkier if it's not turning you on?

__________________
Whatever did happen to your soul?
I heard you sold it

Choose Heaven for the weather and Hell for the company

abaya

Well, I'd say that no, it doesn't have much to do with the good ol' evangelicalism. It WAS anathema, back then... no ifs, ands, or... dare I say it, butts. At that point in my life, it was daring if my boyfriend french-kissed me or *attempted* to remove clothing (he rarely succeeded). I was 19 then, and stopped him cold on both counts.

So no, anal is more "vanilla" now because it was where my husband and I started to experiment... it was the starting point of conscious non-vanilla-ness for me.

__________________
And think not you can direct the course of Love;
for Love, if it finds you worthy, directs your course.
--Khalil Gibran

Jozrael

I would think that anal would be even more out there for evangelicals, not okay because it's not in the vagina. I think it's just that her journey's brought her to a spot where that really -is- vanilla to her. She's evolved . Abaya, your comment that this should be the evolution of sexuality really struck home with me. I realize that I should be changing my opinions on sexuality, but I also realize that while I'm in one stage of growth right now, that will end. I'm becoming okay with more and more things, but at some point I want that to end. I'm not quite sure where yet...I'm fairlyreasonablyabsolutely sure that scat and other stuff will never even seriously cross my mind...but golden showers? I dunno...I've heard it described as a fluid connection between two people, so hell if I know. I'm not okay with it now, but I thought analingus was the most out there in the world four short months ago, and look where I am now.

Long story short, the stage of growth I'm in right now, and you were in it seems, is to be okay with more and more things. It seems like you've reached the edge, and you want more - you want the growth to continue? Well, perhaps it won't be at the same pace. Maybe instead of more breadth, you'll add more depth. You'll learn subtle tricks to play, or just learn to work more enjoyment out of specific things, or...I dunno . I think you might just want to possibly revise your view of wanting to continue your exponential growth here.

Pigglet, I definitely agree that some vanilla things are going to be my favorite things no matter how far I go. I mean...ever since I learned of them, I think blowjobs have been the most intimate, sexual, amazing thing you could possibly do to someone - and I've never even had one still! That'll change soon, I believe but that doesn't stop me from realizing that it's going to be one of the best things for me (I think. Actual experience will let me know for certain ).

ratbastid

My accountant is a butch lesbian who I suspect is a few notches up the Autism Spectrum. That's like three fetishes right there!

Seriously, though, I remember this place being a LOT more kinky in the past. I think you're right, abaya, that there has been less discussion of that sort of thing in the last year or so.

There used to be a lifestyle BDSM couple that posted here a lot. Her name was galaxygirl. His... geez... had an 8 in it somewhere, I think... Been a long time since we've heard from them. We used to have a couple of swingers who were pretty vocal about the lifestyle, though there's some upheaval in their lives at the moment.

There are still some freaks around here. And I'm proud to be counted among them--although the deviation-from-norm that I'm probably best known for around here isn't primarily sexual in nature...

abaya

To be honest, I don't know if I want more, at least not right now. There has been a lot of "being okay with more and more things" over a very short period of time, after a very LONG period of me thinking I would be vanilla till I died... and I think I just need time to adjust to what has become "okay" so far. This thread is partly about that, and I'm glad to know that others are joining in at last.

EDIT: YAY for ratbastid stopping by... you're one of the old guard, apparently. Thank you for your thoughts, and for being an honest "freak."

__________________
And think not you can direct the course of Love;
for Love, if it finds you worthy, directs your course.
--Khalil Gibran

Jozrael

So, what's your primary kink, ratbastid? Huh, huh, huh?

spectre

I read this over a few times and I can't help but wonder why avoiding the label of "vanilla" is so important to you. Really, what does it matter if you are extremely kinky or as vanilla as can be? As long as you're having fun, that's what's important and you need to do what works best for you and what you enjoy. Sex is all about enjoyment. Do what makes you happy, not what helps you avoid a label.

__________________
"Fuck these chains
No goddamn slave
I will be different" ~ Machine Head

abaya

Well, a lot of it may be related to the fact that I lived as a "label" (Christian) for a good part of my life, and I have spent the last 7 years disassociating myself from it. I have stopped doing things that would cast me, in any form, under that label... going to church, praying, meeting in fellowship with other Christians, reading the Bible, perhaps even believing in God. Some of those things used to make me happy, but I did not want to be identified with what those things stood for.

So I guess being "vanilla" somehow associates me (and only me, in my mind) with being Christian, and I don't know why... but it does. There is no rationality to it, spectre, I must admit... but for me, the label still carries power for me. Something to do with repression/oppression, I don't know. I expect that I will "evolve" out of it, eventually, but for now I need to distance myself from it. I don't want anything to do with the Christian normal-curve, especially the parts of it related to normative sexual behavior.

__________________
And think not you can direct the course of Love;
for Love, if it finds you worthy, directs your course.
--Khalil Gibran

Gilda

The biggest part of it is that it may be connected to my abused background, which makes it somewhat difficult for me to see as acceptable. I know logically that how a thing came to be as it is has no bearing on the value of that thing--a lot of great art comes out of great suffering--but it's difficult to separate mentally when I talk about these things with others.

Oh, and I like vanilla a lot, also. I like a lot of variety, but as with anything, you need to know the fundamentals, so that when other things aren't working, you have that to fall back on.

__________________
I'm against ending blackness. I believe that everyone has a right to be black, it's a choice, and I support that.

~Steven Colbert

spectre

Okay, please try not to take offense at this as it may come off a little harsh, but it's the truth and it really needs to be said.

I don't think that response will be very healthy for you in the long run though. The way I see it, even if you push yourself into the kinkiest and "least Christian" situation you can think of, you're still being controlled because you're not doing it out of a desire for that experience, you're doing it because of your aversion to being like other Christians. You're not doing this because the Christian group tells you to, but you are acting directly as a result of them. To me, even though you're doing the opposite of what they want, you're actions are influenced by them and you're still being controlled. So, no matter how long you continue on for, you won't break the cycle.

What you're doing right now is, you're waiting for something or someone to come along and put an end to that old label for you. You're going to have to realize at some point that you won't "evolve out of it" and that label isn't just going to go away. You're the one keeping that old label on yourself, and you need to get yourself to a point where you realize that you shouldn't have to worry about being that person because it's not who you are. Doing things you don't enjoy just to rebel against it, though will only make things harder on you in the long run. As I'm sure you've realized, if you're not enjoying it, it's very empty because if it had been working, you wouldn't be so concerned with the old labels and you would have noticed a major improvement after this long. There is no evolving out of it, just realizing that you're not who you once were and that you are not defined by a label about who you were nearly a decade ago. Take control and kick that label off of yourself. Don't wait for someone or something else to do it for you. I know that's easier said than done, but trust me, it can be done.

Side Note: I'm not arguing against kink, far from it actually. I'm just arguing that you should do what make sex more fun for you, because that's what's important. If you prefer vanilla, go with vanilla. If you'd rather have kink, go with kink. But don't go with either if it's going to keep you from enjoying the experience, because, really, what's the point then?

__________________
"Fuck these chains
No goddamn slave
I will be different" ~ Machine Head

ubertuber

Don't forget that "kink" and "vanilla" are completely arbitrary and subjective labels - which is most of what is driving this thread. If there was ever a place to draw the line, unprotected heterovaginal intercourse is vanilla because it serves a biological function (procreation) and anything else is kink. After all, you'd only be doing it (however "boring" it might seem) for the sheer pleasure of the act, or some other ancillary benefit.

I say don't worry about it so much, because you're just chasing a finish line that is 1) in your head, and 2) moving.

I don't talk about kink on TFP because I don't really talk about my sex life with anyone other than my partners. That's just me though.

__________________
Cogito ergo spud -- I think, therefore I yam

abaya

Hey spectre, thanks for the sincere thoughts. I'm not offended. But I think I need to clear up a couple of things before this discussion goes on (and btw, I did not intend for this thread to become a personal dissection of what vanilla and kink mean to me, but I guess it has taken that direction).

1) You have some aspects of it correct above, but it's not a 100% cut and dry thing. What I am talking about is a relationship of correlation, not causation. I DO try things because I am curious about them, not *just* because it's "anti-Christian." But many of the things I try happen to be non-Christian, and I don't mind that association, either.

For example, I didn't start masturbating until I was 22... and I didn't start because I wanted to rebel, but because I started thinking about sex, feeling horny, and a friend of mine suggested that it might be fun for me to experiment with myself. I gave it a try and liked it, and kept on doing it. I didn't feel guilty, I didn't feel like I was being "sinful," I just plain liked it and felt good about myself doing it. And, I also realized that Christians should not do "those" kinds of things and take such pleasure in it... so that was yet another step in my distancing, that I did not want the label that constrained me. But it was not a *cause*, per se.

Also, I was a wait-till-marriage type until I was 24 and went to grad school, dated a guy for a few months without sleeping with him (after 4 years of being single), then decided that hey... I really just wanted to have sex (though not with that particular guy), and I didn't want to wait until marriage. I just wanted to be with the right person, not necessarily my husband. Not because I was "rebelling," but because I honestly didn't want to wait anymore. I was curious about the experience and didn't want my wedding night to be the first time I "knew" someone, especially if I didn't get married for several more years. (Of course, the irony is that I ended up having sex with a stranger when I was drunk, which was not ideal, but the desire was already in place beforehand and I followed through with it.)

So, what I am saying is that while yes, I want to distance myself from being Christian and from sex that is "only for procreation within marriage," as ubertuber said (vanilla or not, I suppose), it is not purely because of a desire to "rebel." It's because it's what *I* want to experience and try and find out, to explore for myself... and always have, if I had gotten to know myself better at an earlier age. It's what some might call a "sinful" nature, and because it's inherent in my personality and I'm not sorry for it, I saw that as being inevitably irreconcilable with evangelical Christianity.

2) As I explore more with my husband, I find that there are things I am comfortable with, and things that I am not. I would not know where that line was until I crossed it, most of the time... and that is the process I am in the middle of, right now. I don't think it means I prefer vanilla 100% of the time, nor does it mean I am forcing myself to endure kink 100% of the time. I am somewhere in the middle... the line always moving, as ubertuber said.

However, it needs to be said that kink (at least my kink) does not happen in a vacuum of a relationship. I did not start this thread because I play with myself in a kinky way, or go out and find random partners to do that with. But my husband has a higher level of curiosity about kink than I do, and he often brings up new ideas for us to try. This can be pretty exciting, but it is not always easy for me to get turned on by new things. It takes me a long time to get used to things, especially if they were not my idea. That is something we are always working on together, since we have pretty much only been with each other, sexually, and *will* only be with each other, from now on. We are figuring out what each other's sexual needs are, and how to meet them comfortably. But a lot of the way I deal with new things is to talk about them, and this thread (like many others on TFP) is a way to ask about other people's processes of becoming comfortable with those kinds of differences in a long-term relationship.

Hope that all made sense.

__________________
And think not you can direct the course of Love;
for Love, if it finds you worthy, directs your course.
--Khalil Gibran

Charlatan

I think there is a truth to the fact that an increased familiarity on the board can lead to being less likely to talk openly about things.

For instance, in "real life" I would never choose to speak to a colleague or some acquaintance about my intimate sexual fantasies. When I first started posting on TFP about five years ago, I was just one of many voices. I was anonymous and that anonymity allowed for a much more liberal discussion.

The real life hang ups were stripped away. However, over time I have found that while I am still way more open here than I would be elsewhere, I find that I hold back the more honest response. My life here has become increasingly like real life. and with it comes all of the baggage.

__________________
"My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars."
- Old Man Luedecke

abaya

Yes, thanks for bringing us back on topic. This is how I feel, too, and I really miss the anonymity. Another forum I belong to allows members to log into a universal "Anonymous" handle and post about sensitive issues, and I really like that feature. Anyone can use it (abuse of the feature is minimal, and strongly reprimanded) when they see a need for it. The rest of that forum is pretty sub-standard, when compared with TFP, but that feature allows for the kinds of 100% openness that we seem to lose around here, once you've been to a few meet-ups.

I didn't answer your post directly, but I wanted to say that it's pretty much the second part of the post where I answered spectre (2 posts back).

I'm pushing myself to see how comfortable I am with it, because in my marriage we have different levels of comfort with kink and I would like to be able to enjoy it as much as my husband does (or at least be able to participate at a reasonable level). It is an important part of having a healthy sex life as a couple, isn't it? Meeting each other's needs and learning to enjoy that process. So that is what I am working on.

__________________
And think not you can direct the course of Love;
for Love, if it finds you worthy, directs your course.
--Khalil Gibran

Daniel_

I tell you one thing - remove the nipple sucking, add to that "only once a month" and you're at risk of being accused of being my ex-wife.

__________________

╔═════════════════════════════════════════╗
Overhead, the Albatross hangs motionless upon the air,
And deep beneath the rolling waves,
In labyrinths of Coral Caves,
The Echo of a distant time
Comes willowing across the sand;
And everthing is Green and Submarine
╚═════════════════════════════════════════╝

ShaniFaye

lol I thought I'd always been pretty open about all the stuff Dave and I are into

to recap

we love BDSM, its our lifestyle
we love bloodplay
I love to have Dave's hands around my neck in a semi-pressure hold while Im coming close to orgasm
we love to chain other people up and introduce them to sensation play
he loves when I use the George the strap on, on him
I love when he and one of his select friends (just one, I dont mean to say that there are a lot of them lol) have a 3some
We both love knife and blood play
and...oh my gosh...we have sex when Im on my period and he earned his red wings a LONG time ago (on our first date actually)
**edit after rereading to add
analingus is fantastic
snowballing is great

and Im one of the few that admitted to fucking my first cousin when I was 18 lol

Im open to discussing any and everything and I've never been shy about my likes and dislikes (you will never catch me with a dick up my ass...but a finger is okay and welcomed )

__________________
I want the diabetic plan that comes with rollover carbs. I dont like the unused one expiring at midnite!!

Daniel_

Red wings is kinky?

Sheesh - geuss I'n NOT so vanilla.

Never thought it was kinky, just thought it required either cleanup after, or a relaxes attitude to mess.

This I suppose proves my point about things beign kinky to different people.

__________________

╔═════════════════════════════════════════╗
Overhead, the Albatross hangs motionless upon the air,
And deep beneath the rolling waves,
In labyrinths of Coral Caves,
The Echo of a distant time
Comes willowing across the sand;
And everthing is Green and Submarine
╚═════════════════════════════════════════╝

ShaniFaye

Daniel you have to consider, Im posting what I perceive the "general population" thinks is Kinky.....not me

__________________
I want the diabetic plan that comes with rollover carbs. I dont like the unused one expiring at midnite!!

abaya

I agree, Shani... and the TFP is NOT the general population, at least I hope not! Makes things more exciting around here, anyway.

Shani: what would be "a fetish too far" for you, if any?

__________________
And think not you can direct the course of Love;
for Love, if it finds you worthy, directs your course.
--Khalil Gibran

ShaniFaye

well I dont understand the whole have your partner act like a baby thing lol Also golden showers and scat is to far out there for me

oh and either dave or I shaving our pubic areas completely so that we look like pre pubescent kids....trimming is good for us. He shaved it all off once and I think it was the first time in my life I had a hard time giving a blow job hehehe

__________________
I want the diabetic plan that comes with rollover carbs. I dont like the unused one expiring at midnite!!

abaya

Huh, interesting. I'm starting to think that "kink" is all a relative continuum... everyone can agree that at one end, you have regular ol' sex (in and out), but at the other extreme ("a fetish too far,") you have pretty much everything imaginable. And in between, all sorts of combinations and preferences...

I wonder if we all get shy about discussing our kinks because we all know we like basic sex, and everyone has basic sex... so it's safe to talk and joke about. But we don't want to name something that would show up on someone else's "fetish too far" list.

__________________
And think not you can direct the course of Love;
for Love, if it finds you worthy, directs your course.
--Khalil Gibran

ShaniFaye

as long as its consensual and the people are of age...whatever turns them on is ok by me...there are just things that dont "do" it for me....Im sure some out there think that me fucking dave is "way too far" lol but hey....Im not doing it to them so I dont care.

Im all for giving pleasure as long as it doesnt make me wanna barf

__________________
I want the diabetic plan that comes with rollover carbs. I dont like the unused one expiring at midnite!!

abaya

So do you and Dave differ much in terms of what turns you each on? Or is everything pretty much mutual?

__________________
And think not you can direct the course of Love;
for Love, if it finds you worthy, directs your course.
--Khalil Gibran

Mistress Kali

I am a relative neophyte on this site, so cannot speak to how kink friendly it is or is not. I can say, however, that the D/s lifestyle is often greatly misunderstood. An example on this site: a survey asking "how kinky are you?" One of the indicators of being kinky was being in to bestiality. That is not kink it is crime.

__________________
]

The_Jazz

I've been reading this thread since the inception, and I'm mostly just amused at variety of what gets defined as "kinky". I've had fun shaving my wife and she's shaved me a couple of times, but my legs and chest are hairy enough to make it too much work for us. For Shani, that qualifies as kinky. My wife's not into anal at all (prior bad experience), so that qualifies as kinky for her. I despise the taste of my own semen so that's too kinky for me. Yet Abaya (I think) doesn't seem to find much kinky about any of that. It truely is the eye of the beholder that really matters here.

Not that I particular want to resurrect this particular thread, but a few months ago there was a discussion on the guy outside of Seattle that died after being fucked by a horse. Personally, I've never understood the attraction of bestiality at all, and I equate it scat play and pedophilia (Savage's "kink too far") as being genuinely unhealthy. There's apparently a new documentary out about this incident that has gotten good reviews and treats the subject very maturely. I'm afraid that I'd watch it just because of the train-wreck value.

__________________
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - B. Franklin
"There ought to be limits to freedom." - George W. Bush
"We have met the enemy and he is us." - Pogo

ShaniFaye

Id say the only thing we differ on is anal....It hurts beyond any pain I care to think about and he loves it

and just to clarify on the shaving thing...we both shave each other...I do his shaft and balls and he does the whole lips/labia area for me...its the top part neither of us gets off on being shaved completely

Mistress Kali...amen to the misunderstanding. I wrote an article on Dave and I somewhere around here but I think the thread its in is missing I cant find the tilted magazine forum anymore

If anyone is interested in reading, that hasnt already, PM me and I'll direct you to somewhere else that its posted

__________________
I want the diabetic plan that comes with rollover carbs. I dont like the unused one expiring at midnite!!

abaya

Well, keep in mind... just because I have done some of those things, doesn't mean I don't still consider them kinky and sometimes "too far" for me. Trying something doesn't mean that one is a fetishist (and not that being a fetishist is bad, etc etc... just that being experimental doesn't mean it's enjoyable).

What, exactly, does that mean in this context? I'm really curious about the psychological "categorizing" of what is kink/not kink, and how this relates to degrees of "healthiness." Who gets to actually draw the line?

EDIT: Shani, yes please!

__________________
And think not you can direct the course of Love;
for Love, if it finds you worthy, directs your course.
--Khalil Gibran

The_Jazz

Abaya, both of your points are well taken. I guess that my point is that the work "kinky" is so subjective and not only varies from individual to individual but also varies from situation to situation. I've done things with girlfriends that I'll never even suggest to my wife since she's not into the precursors to those things. The reverse is true too (at least in past tense). Perhaps its time to retire "kinky" as a label.

As far as your second point, it also speaks to the above. Perhaps the use of "fetish" is better since that word has psychiatric ramifications. The fetishes that immediately come to mind (mostly because I used them above) are pedophilia, scat and bestiality. Of these, two involve partners unable to consent (pedophilia and bestiality) and two involve major general health issues (scat and bestiality). I'm not trying to particularly demonize bestialilty but it just happens to fit in both issues. I don't think that we'll find anyone to argue the benefits of pedophilia here, and I sincerely doubt that we'll have any horse-fuckers or shit-eaters step up to the plate either. However, both of the latter are fantastic ways to spread disease (Ebola anyone?).

I'm sorry, but as a champion changer of poopy diapers, I can tell you that fecal matter breaks down skin and causes infections unless it's properly handled. Spreading shit all over your partner will eventually make them sick.

There's absolutely nothing wrong with most fetishes, but I firmly believe that there are some that are doubtlessly unhealthy. Am I wrong?

__________________
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - B. Franklin
"There ought to be limits to freedom." - George W. Bush
"We have met the enemy and he is us." - Pogo

Carno

Well, it could be argued that looking directly into the light whilst having sex could be potentially damaging to the eyes.

abaya

Ah, well in terms of just plain physical health, I agree with you completely. But for the sake of argument, some people might argue that gay sex is unhealthy ("diseases spread more easily through anal sex"), or that using dildos is unhealthy (especially the non-silicone ones... jelly rubber vibes/dildos are being slowly phased out for this reason), or that hell, premarital sex is unhealthy... so again, I do have to wonder who draws the line. Is it primarily an "ick" factor, on a very personal continuum? Or are there really universal "fetishes-too-far?"

__________________
And think not you can direct the course of Love;
for Love, if it finds you worthy, directs your course.
--Khalil Gibran

The_Jazz

If you're looking to me to define a "fetish-too-far", I can try. I guess it's easier to define the inverse first:

• Involves people with enough emotional maturity to consent
• Will not purposefully affect the short-term or long-term health of any partner
• Will not cause longterm physical harm or death

I've been as careful as I can in the wording here to allow for as many variations as my mind can handle. One fetish that Dan Savage picks on occassionally is folks that are into amputees, and I had that in mind when I separated the last two points. Being into fucking amuptees is fine and it fits well within these 3 items. However, having you partner cut off their arm because you like fucking amputees is unhealthy.

At the same time, I've heard of "bug chasers" from my gay friends. These are guys that have unprotected sex with multiple partners in the hopes of getting the HIV virus. I'm not entirely certain that they aren't an urban legend or at the very least a misunderstood group of very careless individuals, but they would certainly fall over the boundary that I've set up if the claims are true.

What do you think? Did I miss something? Is it worth continued discussion?

Edit: I suppose that I should also add something along the lines of adequate safety measures taken to prevent illness, permanent injury or death, but I don't quite know how to word it.

__________________
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - B. Franklin
"There ought to be limits to freedom." - George W. Bush
"We have met the enemy and he is us." - Pogo

Daniel_

Mix it up a bit.

I've eaten horse

(waits for someone to point out that anyone doing anal has in a way "fucked shit")

__________________

╔═════════════════════════════════════════╗
Overhead, the Albatross hangs motionless upon the air,
And deep beneath the rolling waves,
In labyrinths of Coral Caves,
The Echo of a distant time
Comes willowing across the sand;
And everthing is Green and Submarine
╚═════════════════════════════════════════╝

Gilda

A fetish, in psychological terms, is when the object of one's sexual attraction and/or stimulation is something that is not itself sexual in nature. Being attracted to a sexy woman in lingerie isn't a fetish. A strong attraction to the lingerie itself, separate from the woman, is. A fetish isn't necessarily unhealthy.

A fetish or other sexual practice becomes unhealthy when it has a negative impact on other areas of a person's life. If it interferes with relationships, with being able to connect sexually to other sexually mature adults separate from the fetish object, or has any kind of a direct negative impact on one's non-sexual life, it's unhealthy. If you cannot experience sexual stimulation except through the use of the fetish object, that's unhealthy.

Keep in mind that the disapproval of others does not, by itself, constitute interfering with relationships. It has to be something about the activity itself that causes harm to the individual practicing it, or, in the case of bestiality, pedophilia, incest, or coercion, another party.

__________________
I'm against ending blackness. I believe that everyone has a right to be black, it's a choice, and I support that.

~Steven Colbert