GK.12.3

I’m a Psych. student and recently took a class on human sexual relationships. Putting the books to the side and entering the real world; I’d like to know your personal views on the following subject.
I know sexual intercourse is considered normal, whether we’re talking about an individualistic or collectivistic society. Men tend to push the importance of such act a lot more than women and it seems that females can last a lot longer until they say, “You know what? I’ve had enough. Let’s do it.” Cheesy, but true.
Right now I’m in a very committed and serious relationship with a chick that is a year younger than me. Both of us are virgins and have never really done anything with anyone, in terms of being intimate – whether it’s oral sex or sex itself.
While some girls have seen my virginity as a downside to being “inexperienced,” other virgins have simply thought that I’m full of it, trying to impress them in order to “get some.” When I told the chick I’m with now that I’ve never been with anyone, I think she liked me ten times more and it was, for once, an awesome feeling.
Due to that, I think she opened up and we’ve been intimate, whether it’s making out or performing oral sex on each other. The love we have for each other is unexplainable and it looks like she really does like me unconditionally, whether she’s kissing me or finishing me off down there.
I brought the topic of sex up numerous times and she doesn’t like to talk about it, at all. I’ve told her, that at the age of 18-19, if we’ve decided to open up to each other, then why not? She follows on to state that “some day it’ll happen,” a phrase which can mean many things.
I don’t want to pressure her and I want our first time to be an amazing experience. Nevertheless, I want intimacy to be intimacy. If we have a lot of it in our life, then why have strings attached when it comes down to other intimate acts?
I keep thinking that she wants to save her virginity for another man, which is understandable in a certain way. Oral sex is reversible, sex isn’t. Nevertheless, she’s been the one telling me that premarital sex is ok and that marriage is just a “piece of paper.”
I’m confused, help a fellow young’sta out
Thanks in advance.

-GK

Devoid

It seems like you genuinely like her, and she likes you too. I say give it some time and enjoy what you have. You've got the rest of your life to have sex. If she wants her first time to be with you, that's a beautiful thing, and it'll happen if and when she wants it to. It's natural to want to do it, but let it happen naturally. Hope I helped.

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skinnymofo

what does that mean?
a cock can go in a persons mouth and you can just forget about it, but a penis into a vagina changes everything about a person?
i neverunderstood that crap, it makes no damn sense to me.
if you fuck, your voice doesnt change, you dont get 2 inches taller, you might get hungry. and sweaty, but all that other crap people say just bugs me to no end.
the i had lost my virginity too once said, "maybe your voice will get deeper" and maybe im just still bitter about that. and i did say "my voice didnt change" after we finished.
and for those wondering no my voice isnt a squeeker, she just wasnt very eh.......
anyway, sorry for the rant.
as for your dilemma. get a bottle of GOOD tequila (although i suppose cuervo would do if you dont mind feeling sick the next day) and just start fooling around

World's King

She has more goin on in her head that she is telling you about. Something happened to her when she was younger that is preventing her from having a fully intimate relationship with you.

And if that's not the case... just get her drunk.

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GK.12.3

skinnymofo, I'm with you. The statement I made had a little irony and I guess I didn't make myself clear. IMO, if a chick is capable of performing oral sex after so many years of thinking, then she's also ready for sex itself. I rather have a girl tell me she's had sex with others than to tell me she hasn't, via proof of virginity, hiding the fact that she's had multiple oral sex partners.

World's King, possibly. We may never know though. Getting her drunk might be the easy way but I have more respect for her. She's an adult but I want her to be in her normal state when she makes the "decision of her life..." After it happens, then hell yeah, why not...she won't regret anything the next day.

Edit: She never said it was the "decision of her life," just trying to get a point across. Although sometimes, naturally, I think it is.

Just my thoughts everyone...More comments appreciated. I need to get to the bottom of this, cmon' experienced folks! Where are the ladies?
-GK

World's King

Your best bet is to just ask her what's wrong.


Although I'm pretty sure she's gonna say that everything is ok.

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GK.12.3

World's King, tell me about it...
She said she can picture herself doing it with me and has theoretically proved her confidence in some way...
She's really comfortable around me and has done way too much, even if she was disturbed with a previous incident. You never know though, like you said, everything can simply be, "ok."
-GK

jt6879

Enjoy the oral sex now buddy, cause if you ever marry this girl it dies at the altar. j/k

Just be patient sooner or later she will come around and it will hopefully be worth the wait. Plus you bugging her about it or trying to push the issue, will just make it take longer..

Instead of talking about it, in the moment just slowly and mutually attempt it, that may be what she needs. If you try and just talk it to death, she may end up thinking too much about it and it may end up just being a wash.

PS when I say in the moment attempt to start things that doesnt mean forcefully or anything. If she says no, it means no. Just a disclaimer...

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GK.12.3

jt6879, good advice. Thanks.
I guess patience is the key, maybe she's testing me. If I really do have intense feelings for her, then I should technically wait as needed. Ahh, women...
I don't want to push her. Sooner or later she'll get random thoughts that "sex is the only thing I want" and that's a big no-no behalf of myself.
-GK

abaya

Just FYI, I'm a woman and waited till I was 24 to have sex. However, I was not giving BJ's at 19, either, so I don't know what to tell you. In a way, losing one's virginity *can* be a much bigger deal for women, due to that whole hymen thing (the irreversible part). Still, unless she's religious, it doesn't make much sense why she wants to wait. Does she masturbate?

The only other thing I can imagine is that she simply isn't ready to have you *inside* her. It's a major thing to let someone push himself, even gently, into your body (even if you like him a lot)... it's a powerful feeling to feel someone moving inside you for the first time. You might want to ask what is lacking emotionally, for her, to make her resist letting you in that way. Oral sex has nothing on penetration, in that sense.

Or, is she just plain scared of pregnancy? STD's?

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for Love, if it finds you worthy, directs your course.
--Khalil Gibran

Kelzie

Lord, I might be the only woman here who feels this way, but it's just sex.

I mean, don't get me wrong, I think sex is fantastic, but it seems like some young women put way to much pressure on it. It's just not that big of a deal. As she gets older and matures, she will come to realize it's just a normal part of a relationship.

So my advice: don't put too much pressure on her, don't act like it's a big deal. Just act like it's the next stage in your relationship, which really, it is.

abaya

I agree, but at the same time, "getting older and more mature" requires actually experiencing sex in the first place, and realizing that it's not such a huge thing after all that build up. There's no way she's gonna relax about it until she just DOES it and goes through that whole growing-up thing, I think. I agree, though, that reducing pressure is a good approach when anyone is feeling resistant to making a decision... sex included.

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And think not you can direct the course of Love;
for Love, if it finds you worthy, directs your course.
--Khalil Gibran

GK.12.3

abaya, thanks for the post. While I don't think oral sex is a bad aspect in our relationship, I think it's made things worse. I'm confused more than ever and I think she is too... I told her numerous times that I rather stop everything completely than to be partially intimate. She freaked out. You're right, maybe she isn't physically and emotionally ready for it. I guess, time will tell. Regarding pregnancy, we've talked about it and being the paranoid self I am, I don't think I'll ever have sex with her unless I have a condom on. STD's is out of the question...

Kelzie, I agree. I guess the old fashioned "norms" have still survived. There is too much pressure when it comes down to sex, yet there is no pressure when it comes down to oral sex. I think young women associate one act with security while the other, with insecurity.
I too think it's a normal part of a relationship and I'm guessing she will only commit such act when she is sure I'm the one for her.
-GK

abaya

Just a sidenote: condoms are great and all, but the failure rate is still significant enough that you should consider asking her to get on birth control before you start getting your penis anywhere near her vagina. Either that, or make sure she feels comfortable getting a Morning-After pill immediately if your condom breaks.

Also, I'm not the only one around here who will say this, but are you (and her) comfortable and mature enough to buy a pregnancy test if she misses her period? We get so many people on here who FREAK OUT if they or their girlfriend misses a period... and some of them are too scared to even walk into a store and buy a preggo test. So make sure you're in that state of mind before you ever start getting it on. That's responsible sex.

Oh yeah, and discussing how you two would deal with an accidental pregnancy, because that is yet another aspect of having sex. Not to mention, having those kinds of talks build up a different kind of intimacy, and will help her to trust you more if she knows you're responsible and mature about it. If she has those fears, they are very real and very valid, especially for a woman who's a virgin. You've gotta figure out what's behind her fears.

/2 cents.

__________________
And think not you can direct the course of Love;
for Love, if it finds you worthy, directs your course.
--Khalil Gibran

Kelzie

Which is why I'm so glad I did it when I was young. No time to build it up in my mind to something it could never be. Damn, where's all the smilies?! Who's the smilie admin in this place?

True, of course. But dwelling on it will make her think it is too big an act, when really it is just a stepping stone to true intimacy.

Shut up! That is so awesome! Automatically merges posts next to eachother. Hmmm....

GK.12.3

abaya, you're great! When it comes down to that, I think we can handle the consequences accordingly. She "missed" her period a month ago, and although we didn't do anything, both of us freaked out. Besides encouraging her to get a pregnancy test (for us, even oral sex can make babies ) I told her we'd go to the doctor. Right when we were about to go, she got it =). Maybe it was the entire nervousness...she told me she was never that late.

Kelzie, maybe that's why older guys tell me, "Act like you don't care. That'll make her want you more." Ehh? Just for the hell of it, I told her once that I wouldn't have sex with her until I got married (and I told her it wouldn't happen in the next 7-10 years). She was quiet for some time until I told her it was a joke

Edit: Regarding smilies, you can't select them in "Quick Reply" mode. I think if you click on Reply, then you can select some.
-GK

shakran

BTW as far as the people giving you advice to get her drunk, I know you said you won't do that but for any others that might be reading this thread, that advice is idiotic. It's called rape, and you can go to jail for it. I didn't see the OP mention he wanted dumbassed advice in here.

now, GK, I'm saddened that you've taken psychology classes and still can't recognize that you ARE pressuring the hell out of her. Constantly bringing it up, joking about it, saying you want to stop everything if she won't give you sex, that's all pressure, and a lot of it. Knock it off. Let things happen. You don't need to drag her off to your bed by the hair and ravage her before she's ready. Believe it or not, you will not die if you don't get laid this week. The more you kibitz with her about it the more uncomfortable she's going to be with the whole situation. At best she'll never have sex with you. At worst, she'll drop you and go find a guy that will let her take her own pace in the matter.

GK.12.3

shakran, everything you said was well put. While my actions may have seemed as pressure to engage in sexual activity, it's been more of a mission to find out how she really thinks about everything. Heck, I've waited for 19 years and I'll wait for some more... I can't loose her because of my urges, impossible.
The drinking idea was funny. Talk about being ethical...haha.
-GK

zpeanut

Why don't you just stop asking her all together and decline anything sexual on the next occasion it comes up. That might create some waves .. HEH..

hrmm.. but seriously, I dont feel "some day it will happen" is such a bad answer. Shes just not ready, but shes also indicating that one day she will.. so, its possible. She could feel very ready tomorrow and that will be the day it happens! my bf had to wait awhile for me too. Since you guys make out and do everything else but penetration, I can't see how it could be so bad without intercourse. I don't want to intrude, but have you fingered her before? fingering is.. not too far from intercourse.

You'll be alright.

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Halx

rohypnol: girls cant say no.

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ratbastid

I think you missed the point of that advice. It's not "act like you don't care." It's: DON'T CARE. I promise you'll get laid a hell of a lot more if you can get to a place where you genuinely don't care about it. What you pulled here was an act that you tried out of desperation in an attempt to manipulate her into wanting to do something she doesn't want to do. She wasn't silent because she was sad about no sex. She was silent because she was busy thinking what a jerk you were being.

Then stop pressuring her. The only way it will EVER happen is if you stop working so damn hard about it.

mixedmedia

I agree with most of the folks on here...try not making a huge thing out of it, enjoy the playing around that you do and it will happen...probably sooner than you think.

As for the getting her drunk thing, it certainly wouldn't be appropriate to get her staggering drunk - not only would it not be ethically right, but the sex would be disappointing, as well - but a glass or three of wine might take the edge off her hesitancy if it's simply a matter of insecurity or simple inhibition. Having sex with your tipsy girlfriend certainly isn't rape. Nevertheless, I do understand the wisdom of a disclaimer.

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analog

If she REALLY means this, then there's another underlying reason why she won't have sex with you. Most likely she still does not feel comfortable enough with herself- either a self-image thing, or she's battling feelings of "is he the one". You can be pro-premarital sex and still think it's necessary to be sure you're with "the one" before having sex with them.

In my opinion, that's kind of self-defeating and pointless, since you're basically advertising yourself as "ok with sex before marriage" when you really mean "ok with sex once I'm sure the man I want to be with forever"... which corroborates her belief that "marriage" is a piece of paper. She could care less about the title, she wants to open herself up to "the one", not a title.

So, my guess is simply she's not yet sure you're "the one", and she is waiting for "the one", not the title of "Mrs. The One".

I would ask her, straight out, that since she's for premarital sex and considers marriage a piece of paper, if she doesn't consider you "the one". Ask her if that's why she won't have sex.

The fact that she doesn't even want to talk about it means she's fairly certain she doesn't want to do it... and knows that if she invites conversation, it will only make you ask more.

GK.12.3

I have, but after a while, you want to take another step up!
Not trying to sound greedy but I think it's a lot easier for her to achieve oral satisfaction...she loves it when I play with her nipples and finger her...no reason for me to stop. Also, I think it's a lot easier for me to please her than for her to please me.
Nevertheless, she, for many times, has said that I'm "hard to please," referring to the fact that I don't come quickly. And I do think that after some time it does get boring when all she's doing is giving me a blow and a hand job.
I really doubt that it's her lack of inexperience because I don't see her doing anything wrong...she wants to make me happy, whether it's by swallowing or simply playing around.
Wow I'm being so straight forward...
-GK

abaya

Welcome to the TFP; we like straight-forward people, don't worry. You'll get used to it.

Btw, of all the people who have replied so far (including me), listen the most to ratbastid. He does, after all, speak the truth.

Anyway, sorry, but her line that you're "hard to please" because you don't come quickly?? Are you kidding? She's almost trying to make you feel guilty or something, instead of trying to learn more about how to make you come (in my opinion).

Perhaps you should get her the book "How to Tickle His Pickle", with advice on giving some damn good BJ's and handjobs (that way, you also won't be pressuring her to have sex... just to give better BJ's, hehe). If you think she'd be open to reading it, that is, and not insulted by the idea. There's so much more out there, and if she REALLY wants to please you, she should be educating herself. Does she lick your balls, btw? That can have AMAZING results.

__________________
And think not you can direct the course of Love;
for Love, if it finds you worthy, directs your course.
--Khalil Gibran

GK.12.3

HAHA, no ball licking as of yet. Although there is a little bit of touching going on...
I told her to back off last time when she was about to make me some scrambled eggs. I think she got scared and doesn't want that reaction anymore... I kid, I kid.
-GK

zpeanut

LOL! its true and worth trying!.. my bf says it feels strangely good. Maybe ask her, in a very romantic way(?) .. 'I'd love it if you licked me there.. '

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Mantus

Yes and no. Some girls are mature enough to lead, however it’s not a decision or a choice. She is either attracted to you or not.

That’s not a problem for you though. Just pointing though out to clear up your beliefs.

She felt comfortable because you would not judge her on her virginity. Comfort is very important in a relationship. However women also need leadership. She has to trust you to handle her sexuality. So you won on one flank and lost the other. You have to prove to her that you are confident enough with virgin sex to lead both of you though the experience.

I know it sounds a bit contradictory (Isn’t confidence supposed to come after the act?) but that’s the way it is…be comfortable with the situation and expression of your sexuality and her own and she’ll pick up on that and trust you.

I’ll give you an example of an experience I had an hopefully it will be insightful and help you understand my beliefs in this.

A girlfriend of mine was in her early 20’s and a virgin. I had to be very dominant with her. She would resist all escalations at first. Tearing her clothes off, pining her down, etc., helped get past that. This is normal, she is nervous and has to trust me to take care of her. Respect her by being non-judgemental and accepting her sexuality. Taking care of her and making her comfortable means taking 100% of all responsibility. At any point, she can make it all my fault…and that’s fine.

Well despite totally leading in the bedroom I tripped on my old habit of being a Gentleman and told her that her “virginity” was still her decision. She looked me right in the eye and said “no, it’s not”. I got it right away. I am 100% responsible for this…and any show of weakness in the moment would have made her doubt my ability to handle this encounter.

Now this happened fast. You guys are on a different level. However take note and learn what you can.

Lizra

Heh! No kidding...back in the old days, a guy just naturally tried to get in your pants, you either let him or you didn't, whoopee doo....another step on the ladder of life.
I can't imagine putting a guy's dick in my mouth first ....that seems far more personal imo....than just fucking...Perhaps your virginity is some of the issue here too..... I dunno.....
I got birth control pills before I was sexually active. Maybe try this....Give her a playful, "I'm a very horny guy and you are driving me crazy look" and ask her if she's taking birth control yet? She should get the hint.....

I was so glad to get that business over with....of course, it wasn't as big of a deal as it had been made out to be...nothing was, except getting pregnant and having a baby!

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abaya

WTF?! "Leadership?" Did I accidentally switch to the James Dobson message board? Why wouldn't she be able to handle her own sexuality? I'm not saying your experience with the girl in her 20s wasn't valid, just that I could never have imagined acting in the same way in that situation. Maybe that ONE woman needed leadership, but not all of us are like that.

Actually, the first time my husband and I had sex (it was basically the first time for both of us, long before we were married), I believe he asked me to lead him with where to go with his fingers and tongue, because we were exploring the whole thing together. I asked him to tell me the same. I found it incredibly intimate, humbling, and romantic, and built up my trust in him even more. If he had tried to "take the lead" in that situation, in the way you recommend... well, we wouldn't be married, let alone have had sex.

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And think not you can direct the course of Love;
for Love, if it finds you worthy, directs your course.
--Khalil Gibran

Toaster126

No offense, but the viewpoint you had about sex and the fact that you waited until 24 and had a partner that was also basically virginal is not common. I'm not sure how appliciable that advice is to the situation.

As far as the subject in general, I think Voltaire said it best:

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GK.12.3

What an interesting thread!
Last night she indirectly brought the topic back up and I tried to shed some light into our "problem." IMO, when she found out that for once, I was making sense she told me to "Stop talking about it." That's really giving me an idea that she is very insecure about it and I think she needs some time off because now, I'm starting to believe that Oral Sex is a chore for her as well and that she's doing what she's doing to please me now that we've already started doing it. <~~ If that made any sense?
As Lizra said, "I can't imagine putting a guy's dick in my mouth first ....that seems far more personal imo." I too thought that once I got into that stage with a woman I really like, then other "problems" wouldn't rise. I guess I was wrong.
You all are awesome.
-GK

abaya

Which part in particular did you disagree with? I didn't think that my situation was all that different, except that we were a bit older... but I'd be open to hearing where you think my advice is irrelevant.

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And think not you can direct the course of Love;
for Love, if it finds you worthy, directs your course.
--Khalil Gibran

Ourcrazymodern?

I'm just curious, GK.12.3: How in touch are you with your animal needs?

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GK.12.3

What are you referring to there?
-GK

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n0nsensical

it's just that you seem to be under a different impression of what women generally want from men than some of us. granted my experience is highly limited, but my impression is that women want their men to be the leaders in just about every situation. they seem to not even care if the man is usually wrong, they just want him to lead regardless the outcome. in this case, that brings up the suggestion that the OP needs to be a stronger sexual leader if he wants his girlfriend to be more sexual. likewise, in the "Guys Expressing Emotion" thread, you were wondering why "expressing [unwelcome emotions] is seen as a negative thing." the leadership theory also applies here and suggests that this is the case because women want men to be strong leaders, not to appear vulnerable or weak in displays of emotions that are perceived to be non-masculine. sure, the standard disclaimer applies, not all women are like that, but I'm willing to bet that for every woman who isn't, there's another one who is and another one who says she isn't but really is.

abaya

Wow. Well, if this is what Toaster was talking about, then... wow.

That's really just a shame, if that's what most women want. I mean sure, I see that theory applying to more traditional or religious societies (including evangelical American Christians; Promise Keepers, anyone?) where women are enculturated with the idea that men should be the head of the household and, correspondingly, should always be the initiators of sex, etc.

But I'd like to think that more and more women, especially those who are educated and/or making their own money, are moving towards a perception of themselves of being as capable (if not more so) of making good decisions as men are, and therefore the leadership is a joint one. I am not saying this is the case for GK and his girlfriend... hell, perhaps his girlfriend is, in fact, one of these women that you describe, who can't seem to make decisions for herself, including regarding her own sexuality. But I certainly hope not.

Why does there have to be a "leader," in bed or otherwise? What's so "wrong" with taking turns and seeing each other as equal initiators and receivers?

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And think not you can direct the course of Love;
for Love, if it finds you worthy, directs your course.
--Khalil Gibran

n0nsensical

Good question. Maybe it's biological and we've evolved to be that way. Maybe it's a result of social gender roles. [slickedit, props to cadre for reminding me about those] What I do know is that in order for me to get people to do just about anything, I have to take charge and push and push and push because they will just ignore me otherwise, certainly not limited to sexuality and women but especially including them. It might be that the sex difference is rooted in biology and it's going to take more than 50 years of social change to overcome hundreds of thousands of years of primate/human evolution. Perhaps, and more hopefully, it's just a social construct that we have yet to break down.

cadre

I agree with you abaya, I don't see women as needing to be led. Granted the way gender roles work these days is such that women often end up being led. Maybe there are some women who need to be led but I would say that there are men who are the same way. I'm not denying the statement but I am saying that women need to be led is a huge generalization. I personally love to lead but I will be led as well. My situation was different, my current boyfriend wasa virgin but I was not, my first time was not anything at all related to this so it's not worth mentioning. But I will say that my boyfriend and I hadn't discussed virginity at the time and I ended up initiating sex.

As to the OP, there is a balance between letting her make the decision and making a move. You need to make sure that there is not a bigger hold up than people here are saying but if it is just that she is new to sex and she is self consious then I'd say make a move and see what happens. It may just be that she is not open to discussing it because you are simply discussing it, but in the moment maybe that would change. Dropping the discussion thing is a good idea, you are pressuring her and I think that it won't help you to push the issue. Virgin sex is not a big issue, so don't make it into one.

As for her acting like oral sex is a chore, boredom can be a factor. Try spicing things up and trying new things, maybe go get a vibrator and see if she'll allow that. If so that may make the jump to sex even easier for her. Another thing is that it may be the result of tension because of the virginity issue.

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Jozrael

Well, I think Abaya's viewpoint definitely has some worth, but it's not definitive to all women. My ex was the strongest woman I know, but she needed to be led. She was heavily resistant to any leading on her part, because it just wasn't 'right'. Once the next step had been reached, she'd reciprocate just fine, she just wouldn't be the one to break down any barriers. One of the reasons we didn't work out because I didn't like the pressure that put on the guy .

My current gf is exactly the opposite - she's weaker in the relevant aspects of spirit but wants a balanced relationship, because that's what I want as well. Though I may still be the one 'breaking down the barriers', it's paradoxically a mutual thing, with lots of open, bare conversation.

So, I think it's an interesting thought, dominance, especially in the intimate matters.