Sultana

That was not at all the point of that rant.

__________________
"Love is a snowmobile racing across the tundra and then suddenly it flips over, pinning you underneath.
At night, the ice weasels come." -

Matt Groening

My goal? To fulfill my potential.

Jozrael

Perhaps I'm being hypocritical but I have more respect for the people who say 'ya know what, I couldn't be with a guy who cried' than the people who say they couldn't be with a guy who couldn't. Largely, it seems that those people say that guys who don't cry are less capable of expressing emotion and those are the grounds they don't like it on.

I'm a guy who finds it impossible to cry. Yet, I express my emotions (esp. to my gf) better than most if not any other guy I know. Would you be against being with me just because I don't show it in the medium of tears?

I understand if someone can't be with someone who cries. The act makes them uncomfortable, so they'd rather not be with someone who breaks down on them. Gotcha.

But, there's no specific 'act' of not crying. Or, if there is, it's one many of us engage in every single minute of our lives. So, to be unable to accept someone because you make judgements about their emotional stability based on their lack of wanting to express said emotions in a phenotypically similar state is absurd, IMHO.

Prince

I'm not Moskie, but I'll give you my insight on this for what it is worth.

Sometimes something that someone, my wife for example, does, ticks me off or just plain hurts my feelings, and I am not instantly able to home in on what it was. And at times even if I can instantly identify what it was that she said or did that affected me in such a way, I cannot understand why it affected me the way it did. This scenario typically causes the following sequence of events:

1. Brain says, "we have been insulted, kicked in the balls, stepped on, or w/e" and acknowledges the feeling experienced.
2. Brain attempts to determine what recent event the unpleasant emotion is linked to.
3. Brain connects the event with the sentiment, attempts to determine why the event has caused the sentiment.
4. a) If this connection is discovered, brain commences to voice the concern/complaint. b) If brain is unable to immediately determine the cause, it attempts to suppress the sentiment and other affiliated emotions until the matter can be properly examined and processed in solitude or in the company of close male friends at a local refreshment establishment.

Of course, a man's brain can always entirely override this process, depending on the man, and he can simply lash out, tear shit up and yell, or just slam the door and leave. You might even think that this would be a better option, as the rage might induce him to be able to vocalize not only the sentiment he is experiencing, but the cause of it as well. Unfortunately, enraged individuals are even less likely to be able to communicate these things to another human being.

While many women may resolve issues and work through options via verbal communication, I'd dare say that most men are more comfortable, and even effective, when they do the resolving through an internal dialog, or monologue if you will.

As for this...In my case, personally, this would often not work, because if at that particular moment she would ask me WHY that (whatever it was) hurt me, I would likely not have an immediate answer, other than "I DONT KNOW, OKAY?".

The reason we go through that whole internal process is to avoid having to express unwelcome emotion and not be able to explain why we are feeling it. Since women love to ask WHY, I'd dare say we should have the time we need to be able to provide the answers.

__________________
Who is John Galt?

Ourcrazymodern?

Interpersonal relations are often a delicate balancing act. Hesays/shesays,
s/he reacts; the other one's feelings become the least of one's concerns when one is feeling too much. We lash out from pain and anger, angst or fear or whatever, and I've surely done enough of it. Some of it I'd take back if I could, but you can only go from where you are! Try to know where your center is and cling to it, I think.

__________________
BE JUST AND FEAR NOT

abaya

Prince, I appreciate your detailed and insightful response.

And call me a "why" woman, but for me, I am curious about why...
1) some (all?) emotions are unwelcome (who said they should be, in your life?)
2) expressing them is seen as a negative thing (again, who taught you that?),
3) and why all feelings need to be explained clearly? (I don't think they do, at all... in fact, in my experience, sometimes it's much better to express an emotion, even without understanding it, and have someone comfort you without a word...)

Do you think your reasoning re: emotions is a guy's-brain thing, or just something that any gender could inherit/learn, given one's upbringing?

__________________
And think not you can direct the course of Love;
for Love, if it finds you worthy, directs your course.
--Khalil Gibran

Moskie

I think there's a couple things to consider now... first off, when I imagine the stereotypical way things get resolved after a couple has an emotional fight, I think of things like the guy saying he's sorry, showing up with roses, or doing/saying something equally romantic to get things back on track. Now, is this because the guy is always in the wrong? Of course not. Women can be unjustly hurtful, too. It's just expected that the guy approach the girl first. Guys are supposed to suck it up and show the girl he loves her and wants her back.

But how often would this happen the other way, with the girl owning up to the guy? In my previous relationships at least, it seems like an impossibility. Girls are allowed to be emotional and affected to the point where they need to be consoled by the guy. When I've gotten to that point, my girlfriend usually questions my reaction, withdraws a bit, and essentially invalidates the way I feel. I think this also helps explain why I have trouble expressing what I feel immediately, since this is the reaction I've learned to expect.

So this is all well and good for 90% of the time. But there's that 10% that I have trouble dealing with. And maybe this isn't the way it is with most relationships... but it seems like the way it's been for me.

__________________
Greetings and salutations.

Prince

I don't think emotions in general are unwelcome exactly. I was referring to 'negative' feelings that might not be appreciated by the person they were directed to.
Actually, experiences with women did. Positive feelings were welcomed, negative feelings often not.
See, if only they did not need to be. But when someone does something to upset you, and you tell them they hurt you, they would probably want to know why. And with some women, even if you don't blame them for whatever has hurt you, if you don't go into the root of the issue, they assume it is about them.

Well that isn't really something that can be discussed without opening up a whole different subject matter, and I don't want to hijack Moskie's thread here. Suffice to say, I do believe that the way men and women of our species deal with emotions [and think, in general] differs greatly from one sex to the other. And the differences, interesting as they are in their own right, are potential minefields, when you consider two people trying to communicate emotions that are processed and expressed in potentially very different ways.

I will give you two examples, very real, from my own life, if you'll bear with me. (Again Moskie, I'm not trying to jack your thread man!)

Years back, when I met my wife, she was living in the States and I lived back in Europe. We would see each other about twice a year, and would correspond via email and snail mail. We were getting to know each other still, she was in college and I was off-and-on employed. I remember becoming very upset at her for the fact that she had been provided a lot of nice things in her life by her very well off parents...especially her nice car. Meanwhile, I had built my cars from totalled wrecks with the help of my uncle, and I had owned only cars that were pieces of shit...Fiat 127, Opel Kadett, etc. My cars were usually about 20 years old by the time I started driving them. This was when we were already engaged, just living in different countries. I became very hostile and bitchy about the whole business with her nice car, making a snide comment here and another one there. It pissed her off, naturally, and she would ask me why I was making those comments...but I didn't know. And I said as much. Eventually after much time by myself working through it all I realized it had nothing to do with envy, or with her having things easier (because in the ways that count, she hadn't), but with my own insecurities; not having a job, and soon having a wife to provide for, I felt threatened by the thought of not being able to afford all the things I thought she had grown accustomed to.

Second example: sometimes, after we were married, I would do things like spontaneously vacuum the house, or do laundry or the dishes. And she would be like, that's nice, provided she would notice. It hurt my feelings, and she could tell, but at first I wasn't really sure why. I wasn't expecting her to jump up and down with joy, but I was hoping for something. I couldn't explain to her why I felt suddenly so slammed down. Eventually, after some time taken to think about it, I realized that I'm not the guy who buys roses and chocolate...but I do things like that, stuff that she usually prefers to do herself (I never fold something right or w/e), as a sign of how I feel about her. By criticizing or ignoring the effort, which she probably just saw as me doing my part of the chores of the house, she was in a way belittling my way of telling her how I felt about her.

It is things like that, that are not always easy to explain.

Moskie, I can relate to some of the things you wrote about. I don't think it's a global feminine feature though. I really believe it's just who she is, and perhaps she didn't grow up around guys who were honest about their feelings. She may not know how to deal with it.

Would it help any to show her this thread, do you think?

__________________
Who is John Galt?

jusolson00

God... this is exactly how i'm feeling at the moment with my current relationship of just over a year and it's tearing me up inside. The constant feeling of not being "wanted" or cared for by somebody who so calls "loves you" is something that I don't think I can take anymore. The time is coming where all cards will be laid out on the table. whether she decides to hold em or fold em is going to be up to her... But NOT before I let her have my two cents. All i can say is don't be a doormat to her. maybe showing some spine and letting her actually hear a piece of my mind and leaving her will snap her out of her mindset....... love F***ing sucks...

Martian

We're getting into the whole nature/nurture thing now. Here's my two cents...

A great many men (myself included) simply aren't equipped with the tools to deal with their own emotions. Grandfather tells dad that 'real men don't eat quiche,' dad passes this tidbit on to son and son, who uses dad as his primary model for exactly what a man is, doesn't eat quiche. Mum, whose dad didn't eat quiche either, may or may not recognize that this isn't precisely healthy behaviour. However, odds on are that she doesn't have the ability to do anything about it either; since none of the men she's been close to were able to express their emotions in a competent manner, she doesn't know how to deal with men on an emotional level.

Note the emphasis.

There are, by my observations, two ways that women deal with this. The first method, the one that Moskie has had unfortunate experience with, is that they buy into the stereotype. They tell their boyfriends that 'real men don't eat quiche,' and if the guy wants quiche anyway they ditch him. Or when he tries to go that way, they shut him down. I've seen (and experienced) women who will belittle their men in order to prevent that kind of behaviour and therefore avoid having to deal with something that they just don't know how to handle.

That leaves the man in a pretty shitty spot. He's already down about something and when he goes to the person who's supposed to give him emotinonal support, she makes him feel worse. A lot of the time, she makes him feel like it's his fault that he got hurt somehow, whether or not he (or she) inflicted the pain. And the man, who believes that women are 'more in touch with their emotions,' doesn't know how to deal with this. If he's lucky, he'll realize that the woman may well be wrong on matters of the heart after all, but he's still left in the tricky spot of not being to express any sort of negative or sensitive feeling without being hurt further. So either way, he stops doing it. He internalizes instead and finds ways to let off the stress that he feels. This isn't exactly a healthy way to go through life either, particularly since the man may well pass these behaviours onto any sons of his and thereby perpetuate the whole thing even further. Nonetheless, there are millions of men the world over who live this way and we haven't managed to wipe ourselves off the face of the planet quite yet.

The other way that women deal with this is by recognizing that men do in fact have emotional needs. However, these women are still not equipped to deal with a man in an emotional sense. They cope with this by expecting to relate emotionally to the man as if he were a woman.

I'll stop here for an aside, because I'm pretty sure there's going to be at least one woman out there right now who's thinking 'feelings are feelings and gender doesn't matter.' Which is great, except that in the situation we've set up it's totally false. If we assume that this man was raised by a father who wasn't capable of expressing his emotions and is therefore unable to express (or even recognize, in a lot of cases) his own feelings, then you can't expect relate to him the same way as you would a woman who's been taught that it's okay to cry and has the equipment to deal with her feelings.

The result of this is men like Moskie or myself. We come along and we say something like 'sometimes I get angry or upset and I'm not exactly sure why.' All the men in the room respond with 'Amen, brotha!' since we go through that. But the women are scratching their heads. They expect the men to have all of the same tools to deal with emotions as they do, so when a man says that he's missing the emotional equivalent of a saw or a hammer, the woman doesn't get it. She doesn't think it's possible that he could not have one of those, so instead she assumes that he does have one but he just isn't using it like he's supposed to. As a result, she tries to help him get into the habit of using it. She asks him how he's feeling, asks him to explain himself, asks him why he feels the way he does. And this makes the man feel even worse, since it's the equivalent of asking him to change the oil without giving him any wrenches. He doesn't know why or how or when or where he feels these things. He may have some vague idea that it has something to do with this or that, but mostly he just feels the way he does and doesn't really know how to get any more out of it.

I will take a moment here to point out that nobody in either scenario is behaving selfishly, although there are situations where their actions might look that way. The women in both cases are attempting to help their men deal with the whole emotional thicket, but neither approach is very effective. And the men, in turn, are responding to this as best they're able. Unfortunately in a lot of situations that means simply shutting down.

I don't pretend to know whether there's any inherent difference between the emotions men feel and the emotions women feel. I do know that neither my father nor my step-father were able to express emotions in any competent way. I also know that my own emotional responses are what I learned observing them. It was only recently and with the help of a very special woman that I was even able to recognize that there was anything at all wrong with the way I handled my own emotions and changing my behaviours is an ongoing and difficult process. I'm doing it alone and it takes a lot of time and reflection. Often I do spend hours or even days analyzing how I feel, why I feel that way and what triggered that feeling in the first place. I'm working on developing those tools, but it's a long journey.

Finally, I would like to mention that ratbastid does, as always, speak the truth. Not all men are like the ones described above, nor are all women. This is simply what I see as a typical scenario that arises from the whole 'manly man' stereotype and how it causes us to behave. If you want to change that about yourself, it really is better to do it with some emotional support. You'll be surprised and often highly dismayed by what's buried in your own sub-conscious and having a shoulder nearby to cry on if you need it is definitely for the best.

__________________
I wake up in the morning more tired than before I slept
I get through cryin' and I'm sadder than before I wept
I get through thinkin' now, and the thoughts have left my head
I get through speakin' and I can't remember, not a word that I said

- Ben Harper, Show Me A Little Shame

Ourcrazymodern?

What can we do about sexism, pervasive in our world and this thread? I think interpersonal differences far outweigh any of the other differences we have and I become impatient with feminists for whom the only issues are women's issues, with religionists who seem to think that that's the only moral compass one can use, with sexualists who think there's only one right way to do sex.
Damn it, folks! This is a place where better things are supposed to start, and we seem to be talking about the same old shit. LYA!

__________________
BE JUST AND FEAR NOT

Moskie

Martian, thanks for that post. Extremely well-written, and it really helps me put some of the things that have been going on in my head into words. I found myself agreeing with everything you wrote.

Crazymodern... as Martian said, the gender roles could very well be reversed in some situations... but at the same time, I think it's important to realize that men and women *are* different. For thousands of years, men have been raised as men, and women as women. With that, each gender has had their particular roles to play in relationships. The aspects of those roles are becoming more balanced with each generation, but we can still fall into the traps that Martian described, whether we like it or not...

Thanks again Martian.

__________________
Greetings and salutations.

Ourcrazymodern?

Thankyou, sir. Learning the differences between boys and girls was one of the truly exciting parts of growing up and I'm guessing it's a lifelong process.
I "know" we're different, but I'm still struggling towards understanding the magnitude of those differences. I'm still naively wanting to believe that it's just us here, and that interpersonal differences far outweigh the differences between any of our subtypes, the sexes included.

__________________
BE JUST AND FEAR NOT

thespian86

The simple answer is this Abaya... some emotions are unpleasent, and therefore unwelcome. And whats worse, some are unpleasent emotions created by a partner, or vice versa (you making them feel unpleasent). The discusion of said unpleasent emotions are just plain uncomfortable and unpleasent at times. This is not a taboo conversation to have with said SO but one that feels naturally unwelcome; I naturally connect pleasent emotions with my SO. I am also conditioned to make my partner feel as pleasent as possible when we are together, therefore I feel unpleasent when bringing up unpleasent topics. It's not that they are "wrong" to feel but experiencing them are just plain unpleasent. Perhaps in the "all emotion equals growth" sense then these are perfectly pleasent emotions but as a fairly emotional man I find it hard, at times impossible, to bring up unpleasent emotions with my SO.

And sometimes expressing emotion is a horribly negitive thing. Emotions are wiley, sly creatures and refuse to be pin pointed. I excell in expressing myself to my friends and family, yet even so I have trouble expressig clearly what I want to say to my SO. And even then I more often then not express a different opinion then I would like to give, digging myself deeper. Sometimes it is easier just to let it go, even when it seems hard to do. It may piss me off when Ashleigh tells me I say words wrong, even though I was born here and she imigrated to Canada four years ago, but me bringing it up in a well spoken and pleasent way still creates an upleasent tension. Sometimes it is hard for me to explain why it upsets me so much when she chooses others in her life over me becauses she realizes I will let it go when the others won't. Bringing it up means I'm not going to have a pleasent couple of hours. It's just easier not to express. Other times its right not to express them at all.

__________________
EX: Whats new?
ME: I officially love coffee more then you now.
EX: uh...
ME: So, not much.

Sultana

Snipped for length, but I agree with all this.

And not only is it not right at times to express them, but (for me, at least) it's very hard to know when to suck it up, and when to stand up for oneself.

__________________
"Love is a snowmobile racing across the tundra and then suddenly it flips over, pinning you underneath.
At night, the ice weasels come." -

Matt Groening

My goal? To fulfill my potential.

abaya

Just getting back to this thread... and I wanted to say that from all the replies so far, I appreciate this one the most. A few years ago, I used to say that gender didn't matter... but I'm married now and know better. Indeed, we are different animals.. but for most of us (hetero, at least), we kind of have to figure out how to relate to another gender's brain-wiring.

From what Martian said, it took a "special woman" to learn how to identify and express some of his feelings. I am wondering if the process always works that way (woman --> man) , or if any women out there feel that they had a "special man" who taught them to keep their emotions more under wraps (man --> woman)? Or is the desire of all genders to learn how to feel and express in a healthy way, and we're all (regardless of gender) teaching each other how to do that?

And, I agree with what you say here, Martian... but what I want to know is, how do my husband and I raise our (future) son to NOT carry the emotionally-unexpressive torch? I envision our children being healthy (in all ways) and well-equipped to communicate and feel and not be intimidated by social expectations of their gender. I know it's probably impossible to do so, but I still want to strive for it. Tips? Do any men out there have reflections on what they wish their father *hadn't* done (or had)?

__________________
And think not you can direct the course of Love;
for Love, if it finds you worthy, directs your course.
--Khalil Gibran

Martian

I think that's an interesting question, but before I make any sort of attempt at answering this, I want to stress to anyone who reads this or my prior post that I am not any sort of a therapist or behaviourist. I am not an expert here. These are simply my own views and opinions, shaped by my own experience and observations.

That said, I do think that children learn best by seeing. A son bases his opinion of what a man should be on his father; therefore, if you want a boy to grow up emotionally mature and expressive, the best way to teach that to him is to give him an example of a man who does the same. I doubt that will be an easy thing for dad to do, but then I also figure the first step in solving a problem is being aware that there's a problem at all. Aside from that, I think it's important to allow a child to express emotions and acknowledge them. You can't give your son the necessary equipment for recognizing and dealing with his emotions, since it's something that he has to develop for himself. You can help him on that path by allowing him to feel and explore his own emotions. Don't tell your son that it's wrong to feel a certain way; instead, explore with him why he might feel the way he does. If something makes him sad or guilty, sit down and talk about it with him. The part that I think is really great is that he just might end up teaching you as much as you teach him.

As to your other question.. well, I'd count my step-dad as my primary influence on me in terms of a role model, and I don't blame him for my own problems. He did the best he could with what he was given. Now it's my turn. I'll do the best I can with what I've got. Should I some day have a son, I will do my best to hand down the sorts of lessons and be the sort of man I want him to be. I don't expect to always succeed, but it's important that I try anyway.

__________________
I wake up in the morning more tired than before I slept
I get through cryin' and I'm sadder than before I wept
I get through thinkin' now, and the thoughts have left my head
I get through speakin' and I can't remember, not a word that I said

- Ben Harper, Show Me A Little Shame

opus123

There are tons of different women out there. Some are for you and some not. It takes a few tries to find ones that will be equal to you in certain areas. Emotion is one area there needs to be balance for a relationship to last. And that seems like what you want.

Humor balance is another tricky wicket to find in a mate.

Insanity balance is the last one that is really hard to find, but when you do, then you and your mate can help each other equally with all the stupid insane things you emote about. The hardest thing is to look for non-verbal clues as to what mood your mate is in at the time. There are good times and bad times to bring up emotional things. There are times when emoting right away is ok, and other times when sucking it up for later is best.

The hardest skill for me to learn was how to stop an argument before it got large. The emotions grab me and push me to keep the argument growing, but you gotta learn how to not use key words to inflame your mate when they are flaming you.

It's so delicate sometimes. Sometimes leaving sentences unfinished can leave your mate an opening to finish them, and voila... you are on the same page. Other times, leaving unfinished sentences might get you a whack in the shoulder. Forgiveness has been key to all my relationships that last. Is someone is picking fights with me too much, then it is time to leave and never look back.

Jonathan

__________________
"We are sure to be losers when we quarrel with
ourselves. It is a civil war, and in all such
contentions, triumphs are defeats." Mr Colton
==================================

abaya

Martian, this is great... thank you so much for your insight. What you say about allowing children to explore their emotions... that's exactly how I've been envisioning it in my head, to somehow let them recognize, access, their feelings... not stuff them away or be afraid of them, especially just because of gender. I really hope that with each successive generation, men (and women) become more balanced emotionally and less constrained by unhealthy social expectations of how they "should" deal with feelings. That would be a beautiful thing.

__________________
And think not you can direct the course of Love;
for Love, if it finds you worthy, directs your course.
--Khalil Gibran

Martian

I really like what you said there. Particularly, I like that you've recognized that there are ways that people are expected to behave emotionally and that often those expectations aren't healthy for the individual. The reality is that there is no one ideal way to respond to a feeling. There's no right or wrong or good or bad to emotions and the sooner we can all realize and accept this fact, the better off we'll be.

Personally, I know the truth of it. It's the accepting part that I have trouble with.

The good news is, a child (or an adult for that matter) always has access to his emotions. Or, to be more precise, his emotions always have access to him. We don't really get a lot of say in how things make us feel, which is what makes emotions such a devilish topic to begin with. The part where so many of us men have trouble is the recognition and coping part of it. I know when I'm upset or angry or sad or depressed. What I have trouble with is why I am that way. And when I figure that out the next hurdle is what to do about it. I often have trouble with the concept that I should just allow myself to feel a certain way; in other words, that I don't have to do anything. Personally, I'm one of those guys who likes to fix things; I work with my hands a lot and if something breaks I'm usually first in line to see if I can get it back up and running again. If people and relationships worked that way I'd be all set, but they don't. So here I am, feeling angry and wanting to fix it. Trying to figure out how to fix it. What takes a while to get through sometimes is that I don't have to fix it. I can't always acknowledge right away that I'm allowed to be angry.

And this, ultimately, is what I mean when I say you have to allow your son to feel. He should absolutely be allowed to get upset about things; after all, he's going to whether it's allowed or not. The part where you and dad can play a role is in teaching him healthy ways to deal with these emotions and teaching him how to get to the root of them in the first place. Sometimes we're not always upset about what we think we're upset about. Figuring out the true cause of our woes is crucial to getting past them. The recognition and the response are up to you and pop; the two of you have to both show him and tell him what the appropriate responses are. One without the other won't be nearly as effective. It's the two combined and from an early age that will allow him to grow and learn how to do it on his own later in life.

__________________
I wake up in the morning more tired than before I slept
I get through cryin' and I'm sadder than before I wept
I get through thinkin' now, and the thoughts have left my head
I get through speakin' and I can't remember, not a word that I said

- Ben Harper, Show Me A Little Shame

hulk

Wow. I just came out of a relationship that didn't end well (and didn't start well, but alas) and was pretty shattered until I stumbled across this.

I feel a lot better about myself and everything having read it. This place rocks.

__________________
"'There's a tendency among the press to attribute the creation of a game to a single person,' says Warren Spector, creator of Thief and Deus Ex."
-- From an IGN game review.

Ourcrazymodern?

Sir, it does.

__________________
BE JUST AND FEAR NOT

xim

There have been tons of types of responses to this, mostly because everyone wants to put their two cents in (myself included). But as usual, the question was answered sufficiently pretty early on. I'm going to try to connect some dots along with my own input.

This all comes down to the difference between masculinity and femininity. Masculine energy is hard, dominant, strong, angular, and fiery. Feminine energy is soft, emotional, perceptive, curvy, and nurturing and caring. Males and females both have a mixture of masculine and feminine energy, but males generally have much more masculine energy and vice-versa.

Masculine is sexually attracted to feminine, feminine is sexually attracted to masculine. Also as an evolutionarily created gene protection strategy, femininity also happens to be attracted to masculinity which they perceive to be higher status or value than themselves (themselves being their only reference point). Women date and mate 'up'.

There is another dynamic though, which is the parental-child dynamic. In the science of transactional analysis, which is the study of the interaction between people in transactions of conversation etc, they talk about the parent, the child and the adult. These don't refer to actual age wise children or adults or parents being someone who has borne offspring, they are roles that people assume (and alternate between) in each interaction. The child is weak and needs guidance direction and protection. The parent is stronger and tells the child what to do. The adult is the unemotional middle between the two. Assuming the role of a child, will evoke the role of the parent in the other person, and unless someone with a strong frame resists it, assuming the role of a parent will evoke the child in the other person. Adults can speak equally. You might want to check out this short link before reading on: http://changingminds.org/explanations/behaviors/ta.htm

In a sexual relationship, in a lot of ways, the male is taking on the role that the females father served earlier in life. He is hopefully a strong stable grounding force which helps to guide her. As I said, women date 'up'. In a sense they date towards the father, who is the original highest status male in their lives.

Your deleting a bit of information in this statement, which is: to whom are you supposed to be supportive and nurturing. Unless you have a more masculine personality, I'd be willing to bet that if you had children (or kittens or whatever) you would love to nurture them with most all of your energy. But a girl is not supposed to have to take care of her father in that way, because he is not supposed to be weak and vulnerable like a child or a kitten. Can you imagine if you were a little girl and your dad came home emotional and crying everyday, sniffling 'nobody likes me at work' or whatever and trying to seek your approval as a little girl? Thats not very fatherly. The same is true of her significant other.

This is spot on. When a man acts soft and weak and starts crying about something, what he is doing is taking on the role of the child, saying you are stronger than me and please guide me. This is extremely unattractive to a woman. She hooked up with him in the first place hoping he would be a strong influence she could look up to or at least count on for grounding. She will either freak out because she does not know how to react to it or it will evoke the maternal parent in her. This puts her in a position of higher status than him, bringing him down a peg in her mind.

Men and women can transact as an adult-adult equal pair, our psychologies are compatible this way. Also when a woman gets emotional, and takes on the role of the child who needs consoling and to be taken care of, it will evoke in the man (if hopefully he is able) the role of the parent to console her. Since women mate 'up', this is also compatible with our psychology. However, when a man gets over emotional and shows lots of vulnerability, taking on the role of the child, and the female is pushed into the role of the parent, she has no choice but to 'look down' at him in a sense. This is NOT compatible with the standard human mating dynamic.

This is not to say that a man can NEVER express vulnerability, but think of yourself as having a running score representing how much of a strong man you are in her eyes. The more you cry and act like a weak child, and the more you expect her to be your mommy and coddle you, the more your score drops.

This is also not to say that men are expected not to have feelings. Women do not want a robot who has no feelings. There is a difference between having and letting your feelings be known, and crying and being over-emotional. What is the difference? A robot without emotions has no idea if hes being mistreated or not. Women want someone who is passionate about getting the respect he deserves and being treated right, but who does it without pouting. Pouting about being mistreated is like begging to be treated right. Begging is how lower status people try to deal with higher status people. Heres an example. If she says something you don't like: say "I don't like it when you say that". Say it sincerely and with a strait face. That shows that you do have feelings and you respect yourself, and you are expressing those feelings to her. But don't get red in the face and tear up and say "*sniff* you hurt me feeeeellliinnngggss". That is a pouty beggar child way of acting.

Well thats the point of this whole thread, and the answer is the way women [have evolved to] react to it.

I suggest you don't try to raise androgynous children. You don't have to shove gender roles down their throats, but men and women ARE different. Don't tell him to be Rambo, but If you push your son to be too feely, hes going to grow up timid and effeminate. He will get bullied, and have trouble with girls. Let your kid figure things out for himself. Don't try to artificially modify his energy.

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If I could be anyone in the world I would be Britney Spears. Shes in so many commercials about pepsi... www.ximcity.com

sasKuach

xim, that's an amazing point you just made. In fact, I don't think everybody on this thread is totally in sync with the meaning of "expressing emotions" vs. "pouting/crying/begging."

+1 on the raising of androgynous children

I was going to rip into the rest of you (abaya especially), but itt's not my place. I'll just draw a parallel to pet owners who feed their dogs and cats a vegetarian diet.

Ourcrazymodern?

"Two cannot walk together in peace except that one lead and the other follow..." - somewhere in the bible.
My children, while not androgenous, are turning out non-sexist, I think...

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BE JUST AND FEAR NOT

abaya

This attitude is not becoming to TFP discussions. I'd appreciate it if you'd simply state your opinion instead of harboring an attitude of "ripping" into me or anyone else, or making vague assumptions about my character. Thanks.

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And think not you can direct the course of Love;
for Love, if it finds you worthy, directs your course.
--Khalil Gibran

xim

So I'm a sexist am I? Such a typical feminist attitude toward anyone who implies men and women are different.

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If I could be anyone in the world I would be Britney Spears. Shes in so many commercials about pepsi... www.ximcity.com

Ourcrazymodern?

I'm pretty sure I implied no such thing: Feminists are sexists.
(tongue in cheek) Maybe I was just expressing emotion & it ended badly?

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BE JUST AND FEAR NOT

Jozrael

Men and women are different, but they don't have to be just in the ways that you're talking about. I'm incredibly emotional for my gf, even though I don't cry (that's just a psychological/physiological inhibition I need to eventually get over) and she is the same with me. We're very honest and needy of the other's support, and not in a bad way. We're both capable individuals, but the other person complements us so uniquely that we are able to break down our walls and expose what's really going on in our minds.

All of the above notwithstanding, she does have a negative reaction if she thinks I think of her as a mother figure - she wants to be my lover, not my mother. She has no problem supporting me at all, in any way. But she wants to be 100% clear that it is my SO, my lover, supporting me, NOT a mother figure. She said she doesn't ever wanna hear the words, "I'm sorry, but I think of you as more of a mother figure to me".

Like she'd ever have to worry about that xD

opus123

>>>Don't try to artificially modify his energy.>>>

A wise person said, "Anything a human being does is human nature." There is nothing artificial about raising children. Its a natural act and anyone can raise touchy feely boys and tom girls if they want to. Anyone suggesting how a parent should raise a child "a certain way" will be ignored pretty quick in the super market line. Try it sometime. I taught preschool for 3 years and never once did I suggest to parents how to raise their child. Parents asked me thousands of questions, but never once did they ask me if their child was too masculine, feminine, or androgenous. The parents molded the kids. Period. I was just a well paid babysitter. Most of the kids actually were mirrors of the parents in every way. There were one or two kids that did not seem like the parents, but they could have been adopted or perhaps abused or maybe the parents were abused and they kids were not. Who knows....

Jonathan

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"We are sure to be losers when we quarrel with
ourselves. It is a civil war, and in all such
contentions, triumphs are defeats." Mr Colton
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DaveOrion

Well, it looks like its all been said.......although all the posts reminded me of this....

Why Men Can't Win

If you work too hard, there is never any time for her.
If you don't work enough, you're a good-for-nothing bum.

If she has a boring repetitive job with low pay, it's exploitation.
If you have a boring repetitive job with low pay, you should get off your ass and find something better.

If you get a promotion ahead of her, it's favoritism.
If she gets a job ahead of you, it's equal opportunity.

If you mention how nice she looks, it's sexual harassment.
If you keep quiet, it's male indifference.

If you cry, you're a wimp.
If you don't, you're insensitive.

If you make a decision without consulting her, you're a chauvinist pig, you bastard.
If she makes a decision without consulting you, she's a liberated woman.

If you ask her to do something she doesn't enjoy, that's domination.
If she asks you, it's a favor.

If you try to keep yourself in shape, you're vain.
If you don't, you're a slob.

If you buy her flowers, you're after something.
If you don't, you're not thoughtful.

If you're proud of your achievements, you're an egotist.
If you're not, you're not ambitious.

If she has a headache, she's tired.
If you have a headache, you don't love her anymore, and you must be sleeping around.

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Syriana...have you ever tried liquid MDMA?....Liquid MDMA? No....Arash, when you wanna do this?.....After prayer...

bloody_rose20

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"The only way to enjoy life, is to try different things, and take risks. Sometimes you just have to jump in with both feet and hope for the best "