Moskie

I don't read this forum much, but I'm starting to read some of it now mainly because I'm going through a painful breakup... much worse (for me at least) than any previous breakup I've dealt with. I definitely care about this girl much, much more than anyone else I've been with in the past, so there's some uncharted territory for me here.

Anyway, after reading some posts here and comparing them with my experience (both with this latest girl and girlfriends in the past), I see something that might be a recurring theme. It's that once a guy expresses some emotional distress, the relationship reaches a point of no return. Maybe this is something that's cliche and has been discussed to death, but I kinda need to write it out myself anyway.

Now, with my relationships, if my girlfriend was having an issue with our relationship on an emotional level, we'd discuss it, maybe have an argument about it. I might disagree with what they were saying, but it would end with me consoling them, coming to agreement, doing something nice or romantic to show I care, then do my best to prevent the problem from being a problem in the future. I don't mean to say I placated them, but we'd just work it out.

But I've had a lot of difficulty getting similar responses from my girlfriends when I have an issue I feel I need to bring up. Sometimes I just need them to understand and console me, but it never ends up that way. It's always exploded into a huge argument that I never intended, or wanted, to have. This sort of argument has been the catalyst for the break-ups of my two most recent serious relationships.

I feel like I've seen similar things in other posts here... that once a guy expresses some sort of emotional distress, the girl backs away. It seems like in these situations the guy is just looking for a hug and a reassurance that the girl doesn't mean to cause any pain. It doesn't seem like too much to ask, but it can often be an impossible thing to get.


*edit* - took some stuff out that i don't think is necessary...

Any thoughts? Am I making sense? Talking out of my ass?

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Greetings and salutations.

World's King

Females for the most part want a guy that is strong and protecive. If you show any weakness... done.


We aren't supposed to have emotional problems. All we are supposed to do is sit around and wait till we are needed. Why do you think sports and video games are so popular. It gives us something to do while we wait.

My girlfriend and I talk alot about our feelings. But I know she doesn't really pay attention to what I say. It doesn't matter to her. Not in a bad way. She cares about me. But only so much that will keep me around long enough to finish remodling the bathroom. She's not helpless my any means...


Anyway...


Don't worry about it. You'll come to a point in your life when you realize that what you feel isn't nearly important as how you react to how your girlfriend feels.

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heavy is the head that wears the crown

sasKuach

Spot on World's King. I have to agree. I have no experience, but I have seen PLENTY. Word of advice, keep her at arms' distance until WELL into the relationship. I'm willing to bet that what happened to you was before your one or two year anniversary, no? Huggy-poo and all that shit to a point, but she ain't your psychiatrist. It's been said before, and I'll say it too: get a dog. Better yet, get some good drinking buddies. The won't hug you, but they'll make you laugh, which is a lot more useful.

ShaniFaye

I absolutely could not be with a man that couldnt express his problems to me, my part of a realtionship is to share mine with him and to help him thru his. Communication is not a one way street, it needs to allow both directions and double parking if necessary. It is just as much the woman's responsibility to give emotional support as it is the mans.

contrary to what other people say, there ARE women in the world that understand this and if the person you're with cant emotionally support you, you dont need to be with them.

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Moskie

The story with the latest girl is convoluted, and if I were to explain it all, I know the advice would be to just move on. But, love is a harsh mistress. Or something.

Our relationship has only been "serious" (she has issues with that definition) for a couple months now. But before that, for around a year, there was a huge amount of passion, sexual and otherwise. As we spent more and more time together (I began to spend 4-5 nights a week at her place), I felt a sort of lack of affection, if that makes sense. I couldn't tell if she really had serious feelings for me. I called her out on it, and it blew up into what it is now.

I honestly think she has strong feelings for me. But my desire to have her express it caused this whole issue. She's been very receptive to me doing things I would classify as "boyfriend duties," but I just felt she wasn't reciprocating. All I was looking for was her to reassure me that she cared about me. A hug and a deep kiss would have sufficed. But she balked on it.

*sigh*... isn't it the guy who's supposed to be afraid of commitment? We were always more than friends with benefits. I think she became afraid to admit that to herself though....

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Greetings and salutations.

Toaster126

There is less tolerance for men being emotional in society unless it's anger. Partly because some men are like that, partly because some men are shown by society that they are supposed to be like that, and partly because some women monopolize it.

Perhaps the reason it seems like the problems start when the male is expressing emotion is because they sometimes won't until the problem is serious or long lasting. As in, the problem already existed, and the male wasn't emoting about it.

Oh, and Moskie, don't get into long term relationships with takers when you are a giver. That seems a little vague, so I'll explain: there are two and only two kinds of people in this world - givers, and takers.

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"The question isn't who is going to let me, it's who is going to stop me." (Ayn Rand)
"The truth is that our finest moments are most likely to occur when we are feeling deeply uncomfortable, unhappy, or unfulfilled. For it is only in such moments, propelled by our discomfort, that we are likely to step out of our ruts and start searching for different ways or truer answers." (M. Scott Peck)

Sage

Three words you need to write down and commit to memory:

WOMEN ARE SELFISH.

Period. I'm not saying men are never selfish, nor am I saying there can't be awesome women like ShaniFaye out there who really care about their men, but for the most part, World's King had it right when he said :
Women keep a man around to fufill their emotional needs, not to fufill their man's emotional needs. My husband and I have a great relationship and even I find it hard sometimes to really BE THERE when he has a problem. I don't know why, that's just the way it is sometimes. But yeah, women are selfish. Why do you think we NEED our mani/pedis, our two hundred dollar hair cut, and our $500/month shoe budget? Women are selfish. My $0.02 (as a woman).

Now, I'm not saying that's OK. It's not, it's severely bitchy. I also am not saying it should be tolerated, or condoned, or allowed. I'm just saying that it's my answer to the question "why is she acting like this?"

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Moskie

Big fat whopping BINGO on that one. I've noticed I have this problem.

What will happen, is that when something is said or done that upsets me, I instantly am able to feel that I'm upset, but I can't instantly find the words to express why. I have to sit and think about it for a second (or a day) and figure what was done that actually upset me. By that time, the moment has passed, and it doesn't feel appropriate to bring it up. Until, of course, things pile up and overflow, and I blurt out a half dozen things all at once. Which doesn't turn out to be a very pretty situation at all....

I find myself reluctant to buy into these gender-specific ideas, like women are selfish and whatnot. But I have a feeling I'll need to take them to heart in order to make any sense of this.

this hits home too...


thanks everyone, you're being a big help.

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Greetings and salutations.

abaya

This is precisely the problem... I have a difficult time understanding why anyone would need hours, or days, to simply express how he or she feels in reaction to some stimulus/trigger. Feel it, then say it... though saying it in a considerate manner is extremely helpful for communication and the sake of the other person's feelings.

Personally, I'm with ShaniFaye... communication of feelings goes both ways, regardless of gender, and should not be delayed by time simply because one has a penis. On the other hand, making emotional demands of someone without *being* there reciprocally for him (or her) when needed, is NOT what all humans with a vagina do. That's just wrong. It has nothing to do with genitalia and everything to do with how you were raised to communicate, what examples you had in your parents, and what you now believe to be an effective mode of being emotionally intimate with another person. All of those things interact with each other at unpredictable levels, and are very difficult to change once they're set, unfortunately. I would only agree with Sage so far as to say that women are often raised to believe it's *expected* to be selfish/demanding, whereas men are raised to believe it's *right* to be the provider... but those are entirely socially-constructed gender roles, and thus they CAN be changed. If both people are willing.

For the record, I am a woman and have never had a mani/pedi, I cut my hair when I remember (about twice a year, usually for as cheap as I can get away with), and have probably spent $500 on all my shoes in the last 10 years, total. Clearly, we are not all the same creature!

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And think not you can direct the course of Love;
for Love, if it finds you worthy, directs your course.
--Khalil Gibran

Moskie

I'll give an example:

If one of us were to spend the night at the other's place, the vast majority of the time it would be me spending the night at her place. But a night came along where we ended up at my place instead. We were going to bed, getting a bit flirty, and then somewhere along the line she mentions she wants to go back to her place. It's late and we're partially undressed at this point, fully committed to spending the night at my place, as far as I was concerned. Her saying that caught me off guard, but I knew right away that it hurt. But I couldn't instantly come to terms with why it hurt. What did it mean to me for her spend the night at my place? What did it mean that she didn't feel comfortable being there? Did it even matter? And (girls being girls ) I knew if I phrased what I was feeling wrongly, I could be in a mess of trouble that I'm not looking to be in.

Believe me, I *wish* I could go through that mental process in an instant. But I'm not able to...


I think I also have to point out that this girl lives for her mani/pedis, and has more shoes than I do socks.

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Xera

It's amazing that women have such a reputation for being concerned, emotionally supportive, and nurturing, when in reality we're not. I know I'm not an exception here. I take far more than I give.

Hubby will gladly give me a massage and pick up on my cues that I need one, while I have difficulty giving him 10 minutes when he's had a very bad day. Now I feel guilty and think I should probably get off of here and go let him know that he's pretty damn important to me.

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~~^~<@Xera @>~^~~

Moskie

Heh, this sounds familiar... Now, if your hubby is anything like me, he absolutely loves to do things like give you backrubs. Making you feel good makes him feel good. But, every once in a while, reversing the roles would be really, really nice. I think this sorta represents where I'm coming from....

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Greetings and salutations.

analog

Lots of people can be selfish... I wouldn't necessarily say either sex is more apt to be than the other, though it seems when women are selfish, it stands out more. I have no idea why, other than the relatively world-wide and historically-pervasive societal "norm" of female subservience which has finally started unraveling in a lot of cultures- certainly here in America.

To that end, it seems like the very idea of a selfish, uncaring woman goes against all the long-held beliefs that woman are the care-givers, the nurturers, the ones who are more in touch with their emotions (or simply just more emotional lol), etc.

At any rate- male or female, people value a person who exhibit strength... whether it's the strength of constant stability and control of emotions, the personal strength to share emotions with their partner. Both are different types of personal strengths, and not everyone agrees which is the "real" strength.

As for the OP's dilemma, I think this is more about your feelings than your emotions. You feel as though you're the only one who cares as much as you, you feel as though there's insufficient reciprocation of what you call "[relationship] duties"...

As far as I'm concerned, a good relationship needs communication, and expressing feelings is an integral part of communication- especially when you're expressing that you feel you're the only one actually "in" the relationship.

abaya

Moskie, what would happen if you just said, "Hey, I feel hurt by what you just said." Not having to articulate or analyze anything, but just to stop her process of making demands and tell her, in an uncritical way, that her words caused you to feel some pain. Then, assuming she is mature enough to stop and say, "Oh no, I didn't mean for that to happen. Why did that hurt you?" (instead of getting defensive, which is a natural but immature reaction), hopefully you can tease out what trigger she hit when she made that decision and announced it to you. That is, to work out your hurt feelings out loud, through discussion, rather than internalizing it and expecting the woman to read your mind (can you read HER mind? do you like it when you're expected to read her mind? same goes for women getting a clue about men, my friend).

There's no other way for two people to understand each other's triggers... you've got to communicate about them in a non-accusing, dialogue-inducing manner, until the power from the reaction has been defused. If the feelings (e.g. anger) are too strong to discuss them in the moment, then wait a bit... but not too long, or the moment for learning more about each other, becoming more emotionally intimate, will pass. And those are the little moments when resentment builds... and builds...

As for "girls being girls?"... guys get defensive and hurt in a jiffy, too, as you've just explained about yourself. Phrasing things nicely is a key part of communicating helpfully, if you ask me, and it cuts across gender. It's just plain courtesy, rather than being snarky and defensive when feeling hurt. Tone is a huge part of reacting to someone hurting you; they're a lot more likely to be apologetic and understanding of what they did wrong, if you're telling them honestly that you're hurt rather than snapping at them in an accusatory tone.

Anyway, just me 2 cents, blathering on as usual... but let us know how it goes.

__________________
And think not you can direct the course of Love;
for Love, if it finds you worthy, directs your course.
--Khalil Gibran

noodle

Everyone gets defensive and hurt. Asking someone to emote too much can be painful for either one. In my previous situation, I was the one not expressing my emotions enough until a situation got out of hand or intolerable. But at the same time, I'd expect him to be open with me when something was up. We knew each other long enough to pick up on behavior cues and patterns, but I was the one who kept pushing the openness without reciprocating. In my experience, people hold grudges or tuck things away until they build up too big to contain and that's counter productive. I realized later how I liked to hear what he was feeling or what was going on and I didn't allow him that priviledge from me.

It is quite stereotypical to state that men are looked upon negatively for expressing emotion, but sometimes it's true. I've lived my life always expecting people to open up (Hi, My Name Is Reformed Mental Health Therapist) without reciprocating. And I've been accused of not being feminine enough all of the time, because I'll open my mouth at work or with friends if something is bothering me, but if it hurt me or ended up being emotional, I'd sit on it. It's a shame, though, because when the dialogue can be established regularly it creates a more trusting and open relationship. If anyone really figures out how to do that on a consistent basis, fill me in!

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Xera

I talked to my husband about this thread last night and he had an interesting theory that I would like to pose and perhaps get some feedback on. He said, when men are expecting nurturing from a woman, the woman tends to begin feeling 'maternal' and that he thinks this can really cool of a womans intimate feelings. I'm not sure I agree with him, though I do know I am far more likely to be nurturing to kids than to any grown up regardless of gender

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~~^~<@Xera @>~^~~

sasKuach

I definitely wouldn't rule that out.

which is why I think violating that rule makes them run. Sure, as rational adults we'd all like to think we're... well, rational, and that we can communicate that way. However, I think the cavepeople instincts lurk not-too far under the surface and drive our actions more than we'd like to admit.

Sultana

I have to say I'm very surprised at the turn of this thread.

"Women are Selfish". Hmmm. I'd expect something a bit less simplistic than that here. Honestly, that's a rediculous statement.

People are people. Some are "good", some are "bad". Some give and some take. Most people have a balance between the two--and it's ever-changing. Often it can be difficult, even with well-intentioned couples, to know when to suck it up, and when to speak up and protect themselves.

I agree strongly with this statement. I know I do the same thing myself (female here). It's also not uncommon for there to be signs of trouble, of one person trying (imperfectly, but at least trying) to address the situation, give signs of dissatisfaction with the situation, only to be completely ignored or those signs disregarded.

Moskie, I think that you are justified to feel the way you do, I know that the situation you wrote about would make me unhappy too...but it's your responsibility (and opportunity for growth) to say something right then and there. Believe me, I know it's not easy, but personal growth seldom is. Don't sit and stew on things until UNemotional discussion is not possible, and any disagreement is an inevitable precursor to a breakup.

Abaya's post is absolutely spot-on: memorize it. I will try to as well.

Good luck!

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"Love is a snowmobile racing across the tundra and then suddenly it flips over, pinning you underneath.
At night, the ice weasels come." -

Matt Groening

My goal? To fulfill my potential.

Sage

I think it might have been more fair of me to say that in general, PEOPLE are selfish. Given what Moskie has been talking about in regards to his girlfriend, the way she behaves, and especially the statement "I think I also have to point out that this girl lives for her mani/pedis, and has more shoes than I do socks.", his girlfriend sounds INCREDIBLY high-maintance. I could be wrong, but that's how I see it. She wants things her way, and when she doesn't get things her way she becomes aggrivated and starts a scene. She's perfectly fine expecting Moskie to be at her beck and call, but once he wants anything from her that's she's not immediately open to giving (like love, support, and emotional understanding) she backs away and gets defensive. Perhaps she's just the type of girl who doesn't like to get close to a man because she'd rather be able to drop the relationship at any time without any emotional tangle on her part.

Moskie, if what I just said doesn't sound like your girlfriend, then I apologize for mis-interpreting your posts. And Sultana, more often than not problems can be boiled down to a simple phrase or sentence, at least in my expierence. I was offering the position of her being selfish as a starting point for examining her behavior, not as an umbrella solution to the problem.

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Moskie

no Sage, it sounds like you're right on the money. The unfortunate thing is that if I were to try and point that out to her, she'd most likely deny it and claim that she *is* giving and understanding, and get defensive. She talks about things that she's done for me, but it's all things you would do for any friend, when I'm looking for something above and beyond that. It's very frustrating. I think I just have to accept that whatever it is I want out of her and our relationship, I don't think she's ready, willing and/or able to give it to me. Maybe I'm asking for too much too soon, maybe I'm not, but whatever the case, I'm guessing it just won't work out.

I realize I need to be better about communication. It's tough for me though, and you could probably psycho-analyze my relationship with my parents to get into that.

I do love this girl (and I don't say that lightly). We have a fantastic time together, when we're not fighting. But the fights get so intense... which I almost interpret as a sign that we have strong, legitimate feelings for one another, if we're able to let ourselves get so worked up about each other. It's hard to accept that we can't make it a fully committed relationship.

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Kaliena

I think that's actually really interesting, do you think you can do a poll in the ladies lounge on that one?

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Chamaeleontidae

It sounds like you just haven't found a good match for you... Everyone, male and female, has differnet want and needs. Some want a close emotional and open bond with their parnter, and some want someone to have coffee with every morning.

It sounds like the relationship you were in was a relationship for her. She stayed in her comfort zone. Her appartment, her emotional space, you were supposed to fulfill her needs. And like fredweena said... What you don't say and get off your chest today, is only going to build and be an issue later on...

All you can do is learn from previous mistakes, and try again... And I guess it depends on if you're looking for Mrs. Right... or Misses Right Now...

Either way... Good luck...

If you want a relationship to be equal, it has to be a goal and out in the open from the beginning. it's not something that can be sprung at a latter point in time.

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"Reality is just a crutch for people who can't cope with drugs."
Robin Williams.

ratbastid

And guess what? You'll NEVER get to the bottom of it as long as you keep it inside your own head. Things like that have to get worked out in conversations with other people--which is one of the things a relationship is for.

You mind is a bad neighborhood. Don't go there alone.

Charlatan

I really like that.

As usual, when I see discussions around relationships and expectations, I am reading a ton of generalizations.

Personally, I have never found expressing my emotions to be all that difficult and I have never been one to be uncommunicative. If anything, the fact that I have been with my wife for going on 18 years and married for 14 says that I have found the right match and that our methods of communication are working.

Relationships are always a lot of work and the work has to happen on both sides. The most important part is communication and what you communicate. Emotions are just a part of the package.

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- Old Man Luedecke

xepherys

I'm with Charlatan and ratbastid... just because you are male does not make it impossible to put your feelings out on the table. I've always been that way and it's NEVER caused me issues in my relationships. In fact, all of my long-term SOs have praised me (not tooting my horn, just explaining) for exactly that quality. On the other hand, I'm not some blubbering drama queen with my heart on my sleeve. There's a difference. But trying to "be all manly" and keep everything inside? Screw that... not worth it!

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Carno

What? No.

It's better to share things like that so that they can be worked out, not because your mind is a "bad neighborhood."

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abaya

I find this amusing because I spent all of last summer working in bad neighborhoods alone (albeit during morning/daylight hours) and didn't feel terribly insecure. External circumstances never bother me much; it takes a lot to make me scared/nervous about anything.

But my own mind and emotional reactions do worry me, at times. Sometimes I don't like being alone in my own head, because it *is* a kinda bad neighborhood. I have had unhealthy thought processes, and usually the only way to correct them is to get them the hell out of my own head and on the table with another human being.

Bad neighborhood or not, I just don't think introversion does much good for anyone, man or woman, when strong feelings and emotional reactions to another person are at stake. We have all got to learn to communicate these things in a helpful, constructive manner, as Charletan exemplifies. Talking, talking, and more talking. And nope, the work never ends. I don't think it ever should, really... that would spell the end of growth for any couple.

__________________
And think not you can direct the course of Love;
for Love, if it finds you worthy, directs your course.
--Khalil Gibran

Moskie

I definitely agree. Internalizing things leads to wrong assumptions as to what's going on in the other person's head. Human nature (or my nature, at least) can assume the worst, sometimes, when reality is quite different. Actually, we've gone through stints (like right now...) where she won't talk to me for days and days after we have a fight. This has been the most difficult part to deal with, as I'm all but forced to listen to my own thoughts and nothing else. I think it's just another signal she's not interested in this being serious...

I'm getting the message about communication (ironic?), I'll do my best to work on it...

I hope it's not the consensus that it was me that fucked this whole thing up, though, is it? She's done some things that have hurt me, and I've brought them up. Maybe I haven't done so in the most immediate manner, but I am at the very least civil about it. Initially anyway.. things have gotten nasty when she doesn't own up to hurting me, or assure me that she actually cares about me. She mainly gets defensive and sarcastic ("oh yea it's all my fault, isn't it?" she says). It gets painful.

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Greetings and salutations.

abaya

Certainly not from me, I can assure you. It was just that your thread topic involved a question about guys expressing emotion, so most of us responded to that. But I will tell you that the fault is never unequivocally on one person's side... there is ALWAYS blame to be shared. And from what you've told us about your girl, the error is definitely at least equal!

__________________
And think not you can direct the course of Love;
for Love, if it finds you worthy, directs your course.
--Khalil Gibran

Moskie

Fair enough. You're right, that's just what the topic's about.

See? The mind can be an awful neighborhood!

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Greetings and salutations.

World's King

You didn't fuck anything up.

You should able to voice your feelings without the fear that something bad is gonna happen. If that's how most of your relationships end maybe you should look at the types of girls you go after and how exactly you voice your feelings.

I know for the longest time I was very unhappy with females and relationships. I'd mainly just sleep around 'cause it was easier than actually dealing with bullshit. But then I sat down and realized that the only reason I was dealing with bullshit was beacuse some how I had surrounded myself with bullshit. I was in a circle of negative people that didn't give a flying blue fuck if I was dead or alive. So I left. I ditched 99% of my friends and stopped going to the same places. Now I'm happy. I'm free to express myself. I'm free to live my life how I want and I'm surrounded by people (and my girlfriend) that actually give a shit.

If you run into anyone in your life that wants to stop you from being yourself, you need to move on without that person.

Now I undertand that this post if 180 degrees away from my last post but... Both are true.


There is no simple answer to this.

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heavy is the head that wears the crown

thed00t

I'm guessing you're young? Young girls tend to want the prince charming fellow and that tends to lend to situtations as you've described.

Now each girl is different. The key thing here is to always just be yourself and not have any expectations of the girl. Don't lay past issues with relationships on new ones.

That said, I've noticed that around 25 (each girl is different) girls tend to lose this whole "tall dark and handsome knight in shining armor" fantasy and get a bit more realistic.

You also gotta realized that there is a time and place for everything. There is a time to open up to a girl and there is a time to solve your own problems. Women are not like men. We like to solve problems. Lots of women just like to listen and be listened to. So make sure that you have tried to solve your own problem before bringing her into it. Also make sure that you bring it up at a good time. Such as after listening to her issues, or doing something nice for her. I.E. Also, and I can't stress this enough, when you talk about your issue, make sure that you don't come off as complaining. Make sure she knows that you're coming to her for advice. Bring it up in a manner that ensures she knows that you just aren't whining.

If a girl doesn't like you for sharing your emotions, and that is something you do, then she doesn't like YOU. This means she shouldn't be together. Sorry pal, it's just better off that way. Find a girl that likes you for you and not some charecter you are playing.

Moskie

About our ages: I'm 25, and she's 34. A bit of an age difference, I realize... And she seems much more commitment-phobic then I would assume a 34-year-old to be....

Well, as it stands now, we've broken up. It was a very strange break-up, actually, that lasted all of last weekend. We understood early on that this was a "last hurrah" type of weekend, and that we wanted to end on good terms. It was near 72 hours of us talking about things, past and present. We came to terms with what each of us wanted, and how it didn't jive with what the other was willing to give. And we fucked a lot. It was strange, but I won't complain... sex with her is euphoric (man, I could kiss and tell for hours about the stuff we've done...).

I, very rationally, told her I loved her, more than I ever have loved another girl. I tried to explain to her that that's why I maybe got too emotional. She was understanding of this... She says she's been in similar situations in the past: she says she tends to attract very romantic guys, but she herself isn't romantic. And can lead to the situation we're in now. I told her that I was in a spot where I needed her to love me back, if things were to continue at all. But I don't think she, as a person, is capable of that. Therein lies the rub...

We kept it open that maybe we could get in touch in the future. But one thing I told her, explicitly, was that I was not going to be the one to contact her. I said it's mainly because I didn't trust myself to wait long enough. I knew I would want to call her the very next day. Or if I gave myself a 2 month time limit, I'd wait 3 weeks and pretend that was long enough. So anyway, if I wanted to move on, see other poeple, I needed time and space to get her out of my mind. To fall out of love with her. I thought I made this clear.

Things got sticky after the weekend, though. We parted on very good terms, after having a long heart-to-heart weekend. And it was my understanding that it was over for at least the near future. But after we parted on Sunday, I get a friendly, non-chalant email from her on Monday. It was a trivial email, but she contacted me. I responded... equally trivial. No idea what to make of it. Then she text messages me yesterday.. i can't get back to her right away, so she texted me again...and yet again. I eventually call her and ask her what's up. Again, it was something trivial she wanted to talk about. I bring up that we agreed to separate for a while. She says we agreed to be friends, and it was just friendly communication. I pretty much repeated what I wrote above, about me needing some time apart if we were to move on and be friends. She gets defensive about me saying that this was hurting me... and an argument ensued. god, it sucked.

There's only a handful of reasons why she would contact me, and they all seem unhealthy. She was either looking to pick a fight, which in her mind would make it easier to move on. Or she's being manipulative in order to... well, be manipulative. Or this was her very inadequate way of trying to win me back. The romantic in me wants to be believe it's the last option. We hang up the phone mad at each other, throwing away the good feelings I had from parting with her on good terms. I suck it up, and write an email to her, explaining that I just needed time. I say I'm sorry if it wasn't clear to her that I would need weeks to months of time apart. I tell her I'm not mad at her for contacting me, and I don't want her to be mad at me either...

I really think that she just doesn't know how love another person. God, that sounds so cliched, but I'll be damned, I think I'm learning it can be true. I think she contacted me because she recognizes we have something special, and she doesn't want to lose it. But she seems to have no idea how to make me feel loved and get our relationship working. It's such a shame that I had to come this far to learn that.

quoted for truth. time to move on. any girls want to come to my place and give me a blowjob to get my mind off things? k, thanks.

Twas a long post. Not sure if anyone will actually read all of it, and I'm not sure if I'm actually looking for advice at this point, but it's healthy to type it out anyway.

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Greetings and salutations.

hagatha

I hate seeing generalizations like "WOMEN ARE SELFISH" because how dare you label me when you don't know me. And if this is supposed to be a forum for critical thinking sweeping generalizations come across as really trite.

I think it would be wiser if people in relationships would just say when their feelings are hurt rather than pouting or getting all passive aggressive (and I've seen that behaviour on both sides, thank you very much).
And if a guy took the time to express how he was feeling I would totally listen. But I'm not a mind reader so it has to be said before I can respond. And that applies to any relationship....friend, lover, etc.

I actually find it refreshing to see men who are in touch with how they feel and aren't afraid to say it.

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Thats the last time I trust the strangest people I ever met....H. Simpson

skier

While I agree that generalizations and stereotypes sometimes fall far from the mark, everyone uses them so that they can effectively make sense of their world. Assumptions and catagories people create are designed in order to make quick decisions about a situation and the appropriate response.

I would like to say "most women are nuturing to their partners" but in my experience it is just not true. Nearly every single relationship i've had involves expectations on my behavior to not just listen to the woman's problems but actively work to help her with them, and "fix" things when she feels hurt that is not reciprocated when the script is flipped and I have an issue. This will even extend into lovemaking, as while she will certainly enjoy the pleasures I give her, it is an effort to get her to return the favor. Women take a lot in relationships, and i've found to get any balance in terms of support or reciprocation, I needed to set firm expectations of her behavior from the start, and from that point reward her for good behavior, which sucks because it doesn't feel like a relationship when I have to manipulate her just to get some measure of balance.

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"Asking a bomb squad if an old bomb is still "real" is not the best thing to do if you want to save it." - denim

Ourcrazymodern?

Love your honesty, Xera!
If a man's all alone in the woods, is he still wrong?
I'm guessing yes.

Nimetic

I wouldn't go that far, but I think that there's a tendency in that direction in many relationships, based on the statistically insignificant number of cases I've been in.

But then again, I clean less, I wash less, and do less of many other tasks. Dunno. It's probably a complicated equation overall.

Infinite_Loser

Women, in general, are hypocrites when it comes to this sort of thing. I don't have much experience with the subject, but whenever I tried to share my feelings with my now ex girlfriend she'd give me the "I don't give a damn" attitude. Of course, she had no problems in talking to me for hours on end about her problems and her feelings.

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I believe in equality; Everyone is equally inferior to me.

Ourcrazymodern?

This is perhaps not all that odd: My wife and I have been married for what seems like 180 years already, yet both of the previous posts struck a chord that echoed. I no longer feel alone in the woods, thanks! I'm working on it.

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BE JUST AND FEAR NOT

thespian86

Wow, it has been long since I posted, but, unlike my relationship lately, I'm picking my battles. And therein lies the problem, just like most men and women in this thread. But after reading this, and I did maybe twice or three times, i feel less alone. The past two weeks have been my fiancee and I fighting; I don't feel appriciated and I feel like she is not returning like I am giving. But, if you think about it, isn't that normal. Perhaps it is selfish for me to demand her to be moe selfless.

And any woman who says it is wrong to consider women as selfish are foolish All people are selfish, women included, and it is one of the very few general statements that are true. Women, men too, are selfish. Deal with it. I'm trying to.

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EX: Whats new?
ME: I officially love coffee more then you now.
EX: uh...
ME: So, not much.