dd3953

I am a lesbian, and have been one since I was 14 years old. But only recently have I been able to accept it. I spent 10 years (I am now 24) trying to pretend that I liked men, that I was attracted to them, that I wanted to be married to one. I have spent 5 years in church, praying for my feelings to change, go away, anything. 10 years is a long time to pretend you are something that you are not. And nothing changed. I still like women in every way I am supposed to like men.

Now I heard all types of things from all types of people. One of the being that people have a choice and can wake up and say "You know what? I am not going to be gay today."

After 10 years, I can't say that I believe that. I have many gay/bi/les friends, 80% of them have spent more than 4 years trying to change themselves in vain. We have all come to agree with one statement: You can choose who you have sex with, but you don't get to pick the people you fall in love with.

With that said I would like to know what you think. I don't care if you are GLBT or not. Share your thoughts.

Do you think people are born gay/bi/les or that they make that choice later in life?

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[Technically, I'm not possible, I'm made of exceptions. ]

MEAD

Without soild and conclusive facts to prove that being gay/bi/les is a biological trait, I'm going to have to say that at some point in their lives a person chooses to be gay/bi/les.

__________________
Here are some phrases I'd like to be able to say, in all honesty, before I die.
"That's it, send out the ninjas!"
"So then I had to kill my way to the second floor."

SecretMethod70

I definitely think it is not a choice. What is at the root of it is a bit more debatable, but I think in most cases it is due to biology. Undoubtedly, there are cases in which it is due to psychology, but that doesn't make it any more of a "choice." The fact so many people do begin to realize they are homosexual at such a young age as 14 doesn't really make sense within the argument that it's a "choice." Teenagers generally like to "fit in." Considering how difficult it has been for many people who realize they're homosexual, especially if they came out in their teen years, I really find it hard to believe they "chose" to make their lives so hard at that time.

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Le temps détruit tout

"Musicians are the carriers and communicators of spirit in the most immediate sense." - Kurt Elling

maleficent

Homosexuality isn't a choice... I doubt many people would make the choice to do or to be something that causes them such inner turmoil and could potentially damage existing relationships that they do have.

With bisexuality, i think in some cases it is a choice, I read an article recently that described some college age females as being GUGs (Gay until Graduation) that they've gone the bisexual route to be "alternative" and it was a choice for them... I think that's true in some cases...

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SecretMethod70

Well, as I'm sure others will point out, sexuality is more like a spectrum as opposed to hard-line categories such as "homosexual," "bisexual," and "heterosexual." I don't think those college students are "choosing" to be capable of being bisexual, they're just much more on the heterosexual end of the spectrum than other bisexuals.

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Le temps détruit tout

"Musicians are the carriers and communicators of spirit in the most immediate sense." - Kurt Elling

vanblah

It really depends on ther person. For some it may well be a conscious decision. I suspect that for most it is not a choice though.

snowy

Yep. I'm somewhere towards the middle side of heterosexuality. I'm definitely interested in women sexually, definitely interested in men sexually, but am unlikely to choose a life partner that is a female. Men just do it more for me.

Do I think these things are a choice? Hell no. I know from my own personal experience that I could not control my sexual and emotional response to certain people, regardless of their sex.

Homosexuality isn't a choice, in my mind, and besides--I don't know why anyone would choose to be persecuted, ostracized, and abused--all things that have happened to homosexuals I know.

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If I am not better, at least I am different. --Jean-Jacques Rousseau

CaliLivChick

I agree with SMeth... I would consider myself bi-curious, only because I haven't had the opportunity to go fully "all the way" with another woman, and have it reciprocated. However, I love women, find them beautiful, and fantasize about them. This is sticking around way past college.

Now, if I had to choose between spending my life with a man or a woman, I would choose a man, but I don't want to make that choice. My mom wanted me to, because when I was 16, I told her that I thought I was bi-sexual, and she slapped me across the face. However, that has not deterred me, nor spurred me on. I want what I want, and I didn't choose that, but I'm not choosing to suppress it either.

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Don't trust anything that can bleed for a week and not die. Oh wait, that's me... nevermind... you can trust me.

theguyondacouch

While I can't say for sure, I'm going to have to say that no it isn't a choice. I never chose to be heterosexual, why would it be any different for someone who was gay/lesbian/bi? And like snowy said, why would someone choose to be persecuted and abused if they could just, turn it off and be straight?

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"Lick my frozen metal ass!"

Etarip

not a choice. I have a hard time believing that something that's been going on the entireity of written history everywhere on the globe is just a choice or fad.

Elphaba

Excellent topic, dd.

Can someone *choose* a homosexual lifestyle? Of course, and in the same way we might choose just about anything in our life. But the scientific literature grows daily that homosexuality is not chosen but a biological directive. Anecdotally, the gays and lesbians I have known have all said they learned of their same sex attraction at or around puberty.

WhiteKoopa

I think your sexual orientation comes neither by choice, biological traits or effects from the environment. It is most probably caused by the interaction of all 3, which is why it makes it impossible to find THE cause of sexual orientation.

jmad

I think I saw something in the news about male and female pheremones, and that homosexuals have more receptors for the pheremones of the same sex. So, I'm a strong believer that it's not a choice; rather, it's a biological trait.

Daniel_

The most recent research I've read certainly makes it seem like there are hard wired biochemical differences between gay men and straight men.

Interestingly, self proclaimed bi men turned out to fall strongly into one or other category - there was not a continuum, there were two states.

I'm not saying that I agree with it totally, but it seems interesting.

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╔═════════════════════════════════════════╗
Overhead, the Albatross hangs motionless upon the air,
And deep beneath the rolling waves,
In labyrinths of Coral Caves,
The Echo of a distant time
Comes willowing across the sand;
And everthing is Green and Submarine
╚═════════════════════════════════════════╝

MSD

This is 100% true, every study I've found that's tested it has proven that people who claim to have known they were gay from a young age respond to pheromones of the same sex rather than the opposite sex. I know it won't convince anyone who is sure that it's unnatural and unholy, but it's good enough for me to say I'm positive it's biological.

Topper

I remember listening to an interview of a founder for some fundamentalist organization promoting the "reformation" of homosexuals....

The interviewer asked the founder if he believed people were born gay. The founder said "Everyone makes a conscious choice at some point in their life, whether they are going to be sexually attracted to men, or sexually attracted to women."

The interviewer asked, "So did you choose between being sexually attracted to men or women?

The founder replied somewhat hesitantly "Yes, and I chose women"

The interview asked, "So at what age did you decide not to be sexually attracted to men anymore?"

The founder quickly spat out "Well.. I've always been attracted only to women"...

So much for having a choice...

It's my belief people are born with their sexual orientation. It is also my belief, that those who are most disturbed/ashamed with where they land on the Kinsey scale, are often the loudest homophobic voices to be heard.

xepherys

Personally I believe there is always choice. It's part of the wonders of being a human being. What some people need to remember is that choosing doesn't require concious thought about it to occur. People often CHOOSE to start smoking becuase they're stressed and it's something to do. They don't think, "I want to be a smoker and get lung cancer". They just DO it... but it's still by choice. Even moreso there are situations where people say, "but I had no choice" when that is blatently not true.

So, onto homosexuality. A girl may not sit down in her teen years and think, "I want to be a lesbian", but when she's staring at someone across the classroom, she might notice a girls budding breasts more than a guys growing muscles. I think it's a lot psychological, a lot how you grow up. The argument is often one of "but you don't CHOOSE who to be attracted to". Well, I agree to an extent... but I don't think you're BORN with a set attraction either. I have a penchant for asian girls and redheads. Do you think I was "born" that way? Do I have some encoded gene for "think redheads are hot"?

Well, to the OP, perhaps I just don't like the way it was worded. Maybe it's not a conscious choice, per se, but I don't think people are born gay or lesbian any more than they're born to like redheaded hotties or latino studmuffins.

f6twister

How many things involving our feelings and senses are choices? I don't see much difference between our sexuality and what we like to eat. We all like and dislike different foods but is it a choice or the bodies reaction to stimuli? I will not eat cranberries. Sure, I can put some on my plate, eat them and pretend to like them but in the end, they are something I would not choose if given a choice. Same thing here. You can choose to like men, date them and pretend that your feelings for women are the same as a heterosexual but you are only going against your true feelings. I think the only choice in this situation is the one where you pretend to like something you really don't. Your true feelings are not a choice.

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A little rudeness and disrespect can elevate a meaningless interaction to a battle of wills and add drama to an otherwise dull day. Calvin

Daniel_

There are a number of people who believe that if you are born gay, it is God testing you.

Their thory seems to be that God doesn't like homosexuality, so he makes some people gay so that they have the chance to prove their strength by abstaining.

Sounds like a heap of crap to me, but it's how a christian friend of mine explained how some people are gay even though god doesn't like it.

All it proved for me is that there is little that a follower of a faith cannot justify (got things are a reward from heaven, bad things are a test of faith....)

__________________

╔═════════════════════════════════════════╗
Overhead, the Albatross hangs motionless upon the air,
And deep beneath the rolling waves,
In labyrinths of Coral Caves,
The Echo of a distant time
Comes willowing across the sand;
And everthing is Green and Submarine
╚═════════════════════════════════════════╝

ngdawg

It always amazes me that, with so many studies, articles written, etc. that anyone would think it's a choice. It's not. Some may choose to attempt suppression or attempt a hetero lifestyle, but sexuality is part of the whole as much as skin color and natural talents. My hair stylist is a twin. Both he and his twin sister are homosexual. He has tried to fight it and has had girlfriends, but always goes back to his 'true' self, hopefully for good now.

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Don't blame me. I didn't vote for either of'em.

Willravel

By my secondary understanding, I do not believe it is a choice. I've asked a few of my friends about it, and while they very in their reasoning, the consensus is that one is born with homosexual tendencies. They are rarely, if ever, developed later in life.

sapiens

My understanding of the research is that for women, sexual preference is more like a spectrum, but for men it tends to be more dichotomous. (Which is not to say that there are no men between heterosexual and homosexual, just that the "spectrum" is far more prevalent in women).

Regarding the larger question of choice: It doesn't matter to me one way or another. If I were forced to choose, I would say no choice.

Sticky

But why did she notice a girls bussing breasts more than a guys growing muscles?


I agree, but why don't you have a penchant for asian guys and redhead guys?


xepherys, you find yourself more attracted to asian and redhead girls. If you had your choice you would choose asian and redhead girls.

Would you consider dating (or sleeping with) a brunette, blonde, european, American, or any other woman?

Would you consider dating (or sleeping with) a guy?
If the answer is no, is it becuase you are just no choosing to do so or is it becuase you are not attracted to guys?

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Sticky The Stickman

MEAD

Until you can prove to me that it is biological, which means cold hard science, I'm going to say that it is choice, however deeply influenced and seemingly instinctive it is. You are not going to win me over with personal accounts and second-hand stories when you are trying to prove to me what is science. But what is annoying me in this tread is that people are assuming that if your vote for choice that you are against homosexuality. That simply isnt true. Futhermore, it seems as if your support of homosexuality is based on your belief that it is biological. If it turend out that it wasnt would you suddenly be against it? You all are dragging emotion into this which confuses the arugement. Biology vs choice, has nothing to do with right vs wrong.

__________________
Here are some phrases I'd like to be able to say, in all honesty, before I die.
"That's it, send out the ninjas!"
"So then I had to kill my way to the second floor."

splck

For the people that think it's a choice, at what age did you decide to be hetrosexual or homosexual for that matter? I knew I was attracted to women at a very early age, and there was no choosing that, I mearly was that way for as long as I can remember.
I guess maybe people that think it's a choice have had to make that choice at some point in their life? Could that be why they think it's a choice?

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nice line eh?

ngdawg

This is not going to deteriorate into a shouting match, nor is anyone dragging emotion into it. I also see not one shread of evidence here that anyone is stating such that they only support it because they believe it is biological.
So, I will ask you this: Why would anyone choose a lifestyle rife with discrimination, threat of violence against them because of this 'choice', ostracization, alienation of family and every other negative reaction one can think of? Do you really think men would think 'um, soft breasts, pretty face..nah...I'll go with the masculine one over there and take it up the ass the rest of my life just so we can get beat to a pulp for it?'
Or that there is some sort of choice for those that are effeminate or women who look and act like men? I know lesbian women with male pattern baldness and acne-is that part of the choice or biological?
There HAVE been scientific studies done, as quoted above regarding pheremones, etc. There are also studies showing brain activity different in homosexual men from that of hetero, hormonal studies and polls.

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Don't blame me. I didn't vote for either of'em.

xepherys

Sticky- I may not choose who I think is attractive, but I don't think it's part of my genetic makeup... that's the point I'm trying to get across. Like MEAD says, if you can show me the genome that makes a man like men or like women, or a woman like a woman or a man, or makes a guy think about boning a sheep or makes a girl want a threesome or a gang bang, I'm going to call bullshit on "born that way". Sometimes choices are made without THINKING about them. You do it all the time, every day.

MSD

This kind of thinking (God tests us by testing/restricting how we may use free will/etc.) is one of my arguments against the existance of the traditional image of God. This implies sadism and an enjoyment of others' misery and misfortune, which are clearly traits of imperfect humans and not an all-good deity, leading me to believe that man, unable and unwilling to find explanations for that which he cannot understand or does not like0., created a God in his image to serve his purposes.

ngdawg

There's quite a difference between sexual perversions, ie; screwing animals and gangbanging and sexual lifestyle. In fact, many who do practice the most depraved acts are known to 'not be able to help themselves' and studies have shown a marked difference in the frontal lobes of violent criminals, including pedophiles. SO why is it so inconceivable to anyone that the brain and hormonal chemistry of someone could influence sexual preference?
Again, I ask, WHY would anyone choose a life of discrimination so blatant and allowable in this country?
Yes we make choices every day that impact HOW we live. Who we are and what attracts us has innumerous factors, not the least of which is basic wiring.

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Don't blame me. I didn't vote for either of'em.

MEAD

I was only given two options, choice or no choice, and it's far too complicated for such limiting options. I certainly dont think that most truly homosexual people at one point flip a coin on whether or not to be gay, just as I never did. But until those studies prove conclusive then I will admit only to sexuality's mystery and vagueness, while being totally accepting of anyone's sexual preference.

__________________
Here are some phrases I'd like to be able to say, in all honesty, before I die.
"That's it, send out the ninjas!"
"So then I had to kill my way to the second floor."

ubertuber

Maybe so, but "not born that way" doesn't mean choice. Psychological association, trauma, whatever can have an impact on things.

Besides, we can't even point to which genes make a person tall, which is relatively straight forward, let alone which might determine more complex things like intelligence or sexual preference. Would you say that being stupid is a choice?

Not only that, but there have been numerous studies studies that have pointed to differing brain structures, differing unconscious physiological reponses, etc. that are shared by homosexual individuals. Do you also contend that these differences are by choice?

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Cogito ergo spud -- I think, therefore I yam

Topper

Science needs to catch up to your bullshit meter then xepherys. They've yet to identify exactly how many genes there are in the human genome all together, much less map those to specific traits. (as ubertuber mentions). If it's possible (no scientific proof one way or the other yet), why is it bullshit if people have a different opinions then yours in the interim?

So if it's a choice though, I can consciously decide to change my mind then right? I might not have thought about breathing in just now, but I can then choose to hold my breath...

I don't see how actual choice can be the case (subconscious or otherwise) if you can't change the decision at any point. But now you have me trying to think of other examples where this does happen, when I should be working…. Dammit

Willravel

I always saw monotheism as a way to prepare people for a totalitarian rule. One God, infalable, worthy of worship and praise..etc, seems to me like a way to teach people how to properly live in a totaliatian society.

Maybe God made His decision about homosexuality in the Old Testiment, and now has changed His mind...just like law and gospel.

My bullshit meter can actually sense bovine fecal matter. It's really useless until I get to the midwest, when it becomes a life saver.

I was not born attracted to asian women, I picked it up as a trait after birth. Did I make a conscious decision to be attracted to asian women? Nope. Was it inate? Nope. There is a middle ground here, folks. That is the real question. Is one born with geneology that preps biochemestry to find the same gender attractive? Or could it be a combination of environmental factors? Would these two choices acheive the same result? I doubt seriosuly that ANYONE has made a conscious decision to be gay...but I can't rule out entirely that it can be caused by environmental factors. The little phychologist that lives inside my brain won't let me simply accept that it's biochemical without proof.

Again, when I ask my gay friends (experts on the subject, if a bit biased), they say it's genetic. When I ask a psychologist, I usually get "environmental". Who's right? I have no idea. All I know is that being gay isn't wrong or immoral in my mind.

rainheart

Choice or no choice, an individuals' sexual orientation is nobody else's business.

SecretMethod70

This is correct. It is much less common for a male to be honsetly bisexual than a female. Don't remember if I've ever seen anything suggest why this may be the case.

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Le temps détruit tout

"Musicians are the carriers and communicators of spirit in the most immediate sense." - Kurt Elling

Topper

HAHAHAHA

Right, and I do agree, it could very well be factors outside of genetics, such as environment, etc. My personal opinion is heavily on genetics though.

However that doesn't translate to choice and thats primarily what I'm addressing.

tecoyah

Not a choice in my opinion....acting on sexual urges is definately a choice though.....and I wouldnt expect anyone to deny the most powerful of natures curses....heh

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Holding onto anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one who gets burned. - Buddha

ngdawg

It's only a curse when you ain't getting any....then you curse...a fuckin LOT

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Don't blame me. I didn't vote for either of'em.

Charlatan

I won't answer this poll on the grounds that it attempts to simplify a question for which we truly don't have an answer.

While I suspect that it is not a choice I would say that as socialized and self-aware creatures, it isn't that simple. There is more at play here than choice or not.

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"My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars."
- Old Man Luedecke

powerclown

on second thought.....