Sultana

I have a theory.

I was reading in another thread about how women tend to need to be emotionally secure in their relationship to have a healthy/strong/etc. sex drive (and/or enjoy the sex optimally), and I'd agree with that. And I was wondering why women are like that. Mulling this over while reading the "Psychology of Facials" thread, I had an idea:

Perhaps the reason women tend to be more/get more emotionally invested in sex is that, for physiological reasons, women are put in a position of ummm, dare I say, submission.

Don't go all crazy on me talking about sexually aggressive women, etc. I'm talking about how women basically are the ones *accepting* foreign matter (OK, fine. Penis!). Whether it's vaginally, orally, or anally, women are in a position where it would be very easy to be hurt during the act of sex. Therefore, women have to be very trusting of their partner, which requires/engenders a strong(er) trust bond. Which in turn triggers a deeper emotional response.

Now yeah, I know that a man has to be trusting too, esp. during oral (why do I want to giggle here?). But fellacio (sp?) doesn't seem to me to be perceived as a "man being vulnerable" act. A man's sexual role as a "poker" (yeah, I'm a professional) I think tends to always be perceived as aggressive and dominating, vs. the womanly receptive "pokee" role, regardless of the orifice.

In ancient Rome I think it was, male sexuality was always OK, as long as the male was "poking". He wasn't perceived as a homosexual, even if he was having sex with another man. However, the male "pokee" was considered the (weaker, feminine) homosexual, because he was receiving.

Anyways, obviously I'm not a psychology expert, but I would be interested in your thoughts.

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"Love is a snowmobile racing across the tundra and then suddenly it flips over, pinning you underneath.
At night, the ice weasels come." -

Matt Groening

My goal? To fulfill my potential.

lilfle

it is an interesting theory, i will think on it more before i reply

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Topper

Haha you said "penis"...

Fascinating theory...

You could even take this a step further then the basic concept of penetration. You might also factor in that men are commonly bigger and usually stronger then their female partners. (with regards to heterosexual relationships anyways). That developing of trust and subsequent emotional attachment may begin from the onset. Think of a woman getting into a man's car, or being alone with him at a private location, etc.


I don't think there is anything ancient about this perception. I can think of a couple modern examples in which this still rings true. The most obvious one is prison rape.

I do think you are right on with regards to trust being closely linked to an emotional attachment. To truly trust someone, I can't see that happening for myself without some sort of connection much more meaningful then "take my word for it".

NotAnAlias

I think you mean ancient Greece. They had a hierarchy in politics, and sex was a political act. So, for a grown man, it was ok to have sex with his wife (normally purely for reproduction), with his mistress/prostitutes (pleasure), or with younger boys (provided they hadn't started grown facial hair).

It was also cool for a grown man to receive fellatio, but not to give cunnulingus - that was reversing the hierarchy and was a big no-no. If he was having sex with a younger boy, he had to do the penetrating or whatever orifice, otherwise he was in big shit, no pun intended.

Under a Christian framework, most of this become sinful as that was more geared to reproduction, and any 'wasting of the seed', as such, was a sin. Hence why it was a bigger problem if i guy got a blowjob than if he screwed his neighbour's wife :P


But that's quite the digression.

Interesting theory. When I think about sex, it seems to be that the woman is in the position of 'danger' as such.

Also, when a guy screws around he's a man's man and a hero, when a women does it, well, she's just a dirty slut.

So, i guess what I’m saying is that not only are they in perceived physical danger, they are also in emotional danger - gaining an unpleasant reputation etcetera.


[edited for spelling]

Sultana

Heh, I knew it was one of the "Big Two"

Yeeeeah. And all the ladies have heard "Why would he buy the cow when he can get the milk for free?", but no one tells the guys, "Why would she want to buy the whole pig when she can get All-You-Can-Eat sausage for free?"

__________________
"Love is a snowmobile racing across the tundra and then suddenly it flips over, pinning you underneath.
At night, the ice weasels come." -

Matt Groening

My goal? To fulfill my potential.

Toaster126

I've always thought this was because there is a higher price to be paid for a woman if conception occurs. The man can just leave and have nothing to do with her. Thus, women might be built to be less likely to sleep with someone who isn't stable and whatnot.

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"The truth is that our finest moments are most likely to occur when we are feeling deeply uncomfortable, unhappy, or unfulfilled. For it is only in such moments, propelled by our discomfort, that we are likely to step out of our ruts and start searching for different ways or truer answers." (M. Scott Peck)

abaya

Echoing Toaster... a famous biological anthropologist (or was it Richard Dawkins?) once said, "Eggs are expensive, but sperm is cheap." Women have everything to gain from being circumspect about who is depositing sperm anywhere near their vaginas. They are the ones who have to carry the fetus, give birth (possibly dying in the process), and give 24-7 care to the offspring; guys have nothing to lose from depositing as much sperm in as many vaginas as possible.

In terms of evolution, both are interested in having as many offspring as possible, but it's far easier for men to do so if they are not emotionally tied to one woman (thus they can fertilize more eggs faster, rather than waiting years for the woman to become fertile again). On the other hand, it's much easier for women to have more offspring if they have a man who will stick around and invest time and energy in raising those kids; thus, her interest is in emotional connection.

/ends anthropology speech; the next step of human evolution should be to reduce offspring as much as possible, if you ask me.

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Ustwo

So all those jokes about sex drive going down while married are just myths or are they emotionally insecure in their marriage?

If there is one thing I've learned about the female sex drive, its that each women will react differently to a given situation. A turn off for one will be a turn on for another.

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Mantus

Danger is part of it.

The other side of it is trust in a man's identity.

In a relationship, the man acts as an emtional anchor to the feminine. He is the stabalizing force which allows a woman to achieve her full emotional potential. One of the better metaphor's I've hear was one of the masculine being a shell (an empty space) into which the feminine (being a creature of energy) can enter and release. To open herself like this requires trust. If there are signs of weakness within a man then she won't feel comfortable with him.

Biologically, I think this is a congruety check of a man's personality. Our personalities are like a peacock's tail; they are essential to our reproduction. It's in a woman's best intrest to make sure that she is getting the real thing. If there are signs of weakness, deceit or uncertanty within a man's identity then a woman won't feel secure with him and the attraction will fizzle.

Sultana

See, that's what I'm trying to figure out. Obviously, they aren't myths. I'm just baffled as to what causes this universal condition.

__________________
"Love is a snowmobile racing across the tundra and then suddenly it flips over, pinning you underneath.
At night, the ice weasels come." -

Matt Groening

My goal? To fulfill my potential.

savvypup

If I'm understanding correctly, I believe the opposite. Being with a person for a lengthy period, yes, gives you more security and the know on what that person likes, how they like it and vice versa, but, being with someone who doesn't know you that well gives some people the ability to completely let their hair down and go wild.

Especially I think if you've been with that same person through the early experimentation part of your sexual encounters. This person could be and most likely is your best friend. And although you may love and enjoy sex and intimacy with them immensely, there's certain aspects of your own sexual side that you may have only fantasied about and never had the nerve to raise or take that person there with you.

There's lots of things I enjoy that I don't think I would feel comfortable performing with someone I'm deeply involved with. Does this make sense?

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ClostGoth

Conversely, if you feel comfortable with someone shouldn't they be the ones you turn to for experimentation? Speaking from personal experience, it's easier for MojoDragon and I to experiment with each other than it would be with strangers because we have such a base of trust and knowledge to work from. I know he's not going to hate me in the morning for something I said or did last night. It does occasionally worry me that he will think I'm "sick" or something because of a fantasy, but I share anyway and my fears were always unfounded. If it's at all feasible, we like to re-enact our fantasies with each other. How else can you add spice to a relationship that is almost 13yrs old?

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Mantus

From my knowledge and experience the opposite happens. Most men strain to attract. Once they get a girl, they relax and let their true collors show. Or worse they allow themselves to be domesticated, showing that they don't hold any value for their identity/values/beliefs.

So the woman may feel comfortable physically but not emtionally. Restrained sexual creativity is one of the symptoms.



Does any one understand what I speak off here?

Lindy

If they really believed in the value of their identity/values/beliefs then they wouldn't turn into some kind of "imposter" (imposter is a polite word for fake) to attract a girl.

By "domesticated" do you mean that they might start behaving like an adult?? Sounds like someone that I might like to know.
Lindy

Sultana

Ehh, I think everyone strives to show their best side when the relationship is new and fresh and exciting. I wouldn't necessarily label that as being an imposter, although some folks do go to those lengths.

I would guess that by domesticated, Mantus means lazy about self-developement, self-care, etc. Not the most positive affiliation with the word, but I don't think he meant it as maturing as a person.

__________________
"Love is a snowmobile racing across the tundra and then suddenly it flips over, pinning you underneath.
At night, the ice weasels come." -

Matt Groening

My goal? To fulfill my potential.

Zeraph

I'm not quite sure if I understand how you are trying to link them. But I'd say a general no to your hypothesis. I'd also personally disagree that women are more at risk during sex, it's pretty equal. Especially since anal is not normal. Maybe in porno and even on the tfp but not in the general population.

For instance, one thing you didnt take into account is that occationally men have to be much more careful with whom they sleep with because of the person(s) that woman might be connected to, for instance does she have brothers that might "protect" her? A father with shotgun marriage on the mind? A jealous lover that might kill me? etc. Women tend to have more "dangerous" baggage than men (or maybe not, point is there are other factors that equal things out).

As for current theories see these links below. Sexual selection should be most relevant. Women are more insecure because they have more to be insecure about. Theyre eggs take more time and resources to produce, and pregnancy as well.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexual_selection

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolutionary_psychology

abaya

Hmm, I don't know about that, either... ktspktsp and I have been with each other from the very beginning of our sexual careers, and I think we've let our hair down quite a few times since then. I feel safer experimenting and getting wild with him than I can ever imagine being with another guy... I mean, sometimes I do fantasize about women, and there isn't much he can do to fulfill that (biological limitations!), but otherwise I think we are pretty damn adventurous and always ready to try new things in bed. Our emotional intimacy is a huge part of our ability to let loose and communicate about our fantasies, and definitely to try them.

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And think not you can direct the course of Love;
for Love, if it finds you worthy, directs your course.
--Khalil Gibran

Topper

Anal sex is way more common then you think. Against what bar are you basing anal sex as not being "normal" in the general population? From what I’ve found online on wikipedia, ~17% of the total U.S population are daily smokers, and the percentage of heterosexuals in the U.S who regularly practice anal sex is estimated at between 30% and 50%. (I'm willing to bet the percentage that have tried it is even much higher)

So there are way more people having anal sex regularly then smoking. (hey that could be the next anti-smoking ad campaign... ). Definitely qualifies for a "normal" classification.

I've never heard of a grown man getting ready to have casual sex with a woman stop and ask himself "oh what if her dad finds out". I don't believe men spend much time at all really worrying about a women's relations or possible jealous lovers when a one night stand is involved for example. So while I'm sure it might cross a guy's mind occasionally, it doesn't really factor in all that heavily. Certainly doesn't seem heavy enough to equal out the risks women are exposed to in the situation.

ClostGoth

I think the poster was trying to say physiologically, not socially. The woman opens her body to receive, taking a part of his into her. Theoretically that means she's more the vulnerable, passive role and he's more the active, "invading" role. Correct me if I'm wrong, about that, Sultana. Personally, I think I'd be equally as nervous about putting such a sensitive, important part of my body INTO someone else (were I male) as I am about allowing the opposite as a female... But then I'm looking at their perspective through my own, feminine brain - internalizing things and making it emotional. It's a good question.

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Zeraph

Do you really think conservative-types are likely to be taking polls on sex? Kinda doubt that. I'm confident that poll is skewed.

I am just basing it off of general experience, most people I know would not even try it, and a few more have tried it but refuse to do so again. Perhaps I'm just running into unique people but I doubt it.

That was just one example. Point being there are many factors for both sides. To draw a conclusion so easily is fallacy. And maybe I'm just naive, but what risks are you talking about for normal sex? I don't see how one sex is more at risk than the other. Male gentilia are very sensitive and very exposed so I'm just not seeing how women are at so much a greater risk.

savvypup

Don't get me wrong everyone. I've always had an adventurous sex life with my husband, and I did feel very comfortable telling him what I enjoyed. However, I have to say that a part of me felt a little uneasy because he is my best friend. I couldn't even tell you when or why it started. I just know that the few people I've been with since (we're seperated) I feel completely uninhibited. Maybe that's because I'm a lot more experienced with things and I like to have control. My last partner often said 'wow, you come across so prim & proper but ...'. I wouldn't say that I'm pretending to be someone I'm not either, because I am who I've always been. Sorry off the track here, but that's how I personally feel towards this subject.

As for anal, I agree that it's probably more common. I don't actually discuss this with any of my gf's but just from what's posted around, I'm sure it is quite a regular part of people's sex lives these days.

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Topper

And you forget that for every conservative there is a liberal, do you really think anal sex goes down party lines? I guarantee you it does not. Plenty of hardcore republicans are doing it, just as there are liberals that don't.

Don't try to politicize it, I just pointed out 1 study, there are more that all back this up... and what makes you think people would be honest with you?
If you want to argue it’s not "normal", how many millions of people doing it regularly until you change your mind?

You have to think about more then just the sex act itself though (forgetting for a second about things like "bottoming out", or hymens being broken, etc). I mentioned already, but I'll throw them out again... women are typically smaller and usually weaker then their male partners. (i.e. they are trusting a man isn't going to pin them down and force anything, etc) They of course run the risk of getting pregnant (as was mentioned by others already). Those two right there are huge in my mind. But I'd love to hear some examples you have from the male perspective (cause apparently my own male sense of self-preservation isn't working ) I can't think of anything that could be such a source of concern compaired to these obvious examples for women.

And yes I know the berries are out there hanging in the wind, but honestly if I went into a sexual encounter with a woman for the first time, I'm not that worried.

I'm not drawing conclusions so easily, as much as just weighing the different risks in my own mind and sharing that with others. I don't have to be right here (it is just a theory, and I am obviously not a woman so who am I to say really ), but share some more ideas to help convince me rather then just calling fallacy.

Zeraph

By some hints in your post I think you are misinterpreting me. Several things, like "conservative-types" you thought I meant conservatives in the political sense, but you jumped to that conclusion, and brought in politics, not me.

You also seem to have the idea that I think anal sex is bad, as in "not normal" in the bad sense. I do not think so, I like it, just with my experience it is not common. These boards are by no means a cross-section of the population of the world. And I trust no statisitcs that are not in a peer reviewed scientific journal. If you have any of those you'd like to link me to, I'd be happy to be enlightened.

I agree that when we're about to have sex with a woman, we are not generally worried about castration. But I disagree that women are worried about being raped when theyre about to have sex with someone that they want to anyway (in general, there are always exceptions)... As far as pregnancy goes, why wouldn't the guy be just as worried as the gal?

As far as those things you mentioned with first times, well guys are generally as worried/anxious as the gals.

As far as other ideas/theories, they are already out there. I have read some of them, but I do not have the time nor patience to go find them again and explain them properly. This is not an arrogant or high and mighty thing, I really just don't want to...if I found the proper research on each topic that the tfp brought up, I'd have no time to live my life. So I try to just give my opinion based on what I've experienced and read without getting too technical and time consuming.

abaya

Come on man, are you serious?? I'm not trying to flame or anything, but wow. I find it hard to believe that anyone would think men have as much to fear from pregnancy as women do. Even in this day and age, with DNA testing to level things out a bit... there is 0% chance that a man will ever die in childbirth (unless you can think of some extenuating circumstance)?

__________________
And think not you can direct the course of Love;
for Love, if it finds you worthy, directs your course.
--Khalil Gibran

Zeraph

Guess I was projecting my own feelings into that one. Perhaps the common man does not feel as responsible, but I sure do/would. And her dying in childbirth would be just as bad, or worse, as dying myself.

Topper

I hear "conservative" and unfortunately go into politic mode, bad habit sorry.

Is the Department of Health and Human Services- Center for Disease Control and Prevention official enough for you?

http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/ad/ad362.pdf

Funny, that similar to just about every other study I've looked at. Perhaps you can point to a single one that shows its not common?

That was a 30 sec google search btw. If that’s too much effort, then perhaps you just don't want to listen.

When they are ready to have sex, yes I would agree with you. But the point is they have already developed a certain amount of trust at that point (because there is a risk). That’s the point, for a women you've just met to get into your car, go to a private location with you, etc she is already developing some amount of trust in you (which according to the theory is a precurser to faster developing emotional feelings). I'd say at a greater level then the man feels (perhaps due to the examples of greater risks a women is exposed to, but again any more examples/thoughts you have to share on a man's perceived risks are encouraged).

As for child birth, put yourself in the situation of a one night stand. You might never know this even happened. Remember we are talking about different possible situations. The man might just decide to skip out and leave the woman pregnant by herself for example.

Toaster126

Be careful drawing conclusions from that study... "40 percent of men and 35 percent of women have had anal sex with an opposite-sex partner." says nothing about whether that was once or a normally occuring behaviour.

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"The question isn't who is going to let me, it's who is going to stop me." (Ayn Rand)
"The truth is that our finest moments are most likely to occur when we are feeling deeply uncomfortable, unhappy, or unfulfilled. For it is only in such moments, propelled by our discomfort, that we are likely to step out of our ruts and start searching for different ways or truer answers." (M. Scott Peck)

Zeraph

QFT

Topper-I'm done discussing this with you, you just don't seem to be understanding what I'm saying. I am boggled why this anal thing is even a big deal. I feel like I'm under personal attack for no reason.

thespian86

Hmmm; as I have recently become a self appointed sexual connoisseur I must say that, if anything, I have been in the position to hurt myself more then my female partner. I have, to date, bled once, pulled countless muscles (almost including my 'love muscule'), and been sore in ways I thought were unhumane. But this is, and she will agree, all on account of her endless sexual drive.

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