kutulu

At times I feel can identify with there being a double standard and that white people can't have 'white history month' or a white music festival but Hardknock has it right here. The truth is that everyday white people are recognized.

Whites control a disproportionate amount of the positions of power. This includes everything: elected govt, corporate leadership, reporters, TV anchors, music (aside from rap, however), etc. The only area where minorities have equal or greater representation is in sports.

Maybe things have changed in the last 10 years but from the time I started studying history to the time I graduated HS, history was really WHITE history. Sure, we'd spend small amounts of time covering Indian history, a week on China, etc. but the other 20-some weeks were about European history. I don't think we spent a day covering anything that happened in Africa.

aceventura3

MENSA a group for people with IQ's in the top 2%. Minority group. Special club. Whatever you wanto call it. Why don't they have a group for the remaining 98%?

Knights of Columbus a fraternal Catholic group following the "ideals of Christopher Columbus'. Minority group. Special club. Whatever you want to call it. Why don't they have a group for the non-catholics who don't follow the "ideals of Christopher Columbus"?

People can form whatever group they want. If Whites want a group, they can form one.

If your point is that if whites do it they will get criticisized, can you think of any black group that has not been? I can not.

__________________
"Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on lunch."
"It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions on vegetarianism while the wolf is of a different opinion."
"If you live among wolves you have to act like one."
"A lady screams at the mouse but smiles at the wolf. A gentleman is a wolf who sends flowers."

alansmithee

They used to have white expos all the time. They were called lynchings.

Cynthetiq

Recently the KKK wanted to march in NYC and were denied over and over again on various technicalities.

Prominent black leaders, Al Sharpton & Jesse Jackson realized that they needed to get behind this because they understood that if the KKK were denied the right to march it would jeopardize their abilities as well.

__________________
I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not.

aceventura3

I order to protect our freedom we have to protect the freedom of others, even when we don't support what they want to do.

__________________
"Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on lunch."
"It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions on vegetarianism while the wolf is of a different opinion."
"If you live among wolves you have to act like one."
"A lady screams at the mouse but smiles at the wolf. A gentleman is a wolf who sends flowers."

Hardknock

But you already have it. And others don't. That's called INEQUALITY.

Cynthetiq

I do? I don't seem to see any Filipinos in any of the same positions that the blacks are decrying. I don't see Asians in any of those places of "influence" power, media, etc.

so please don't say YOU, because I don't.

People still think that things like are not considered racist:

__________________
I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not.

Hardknock

Ok, let me rephrase

But WHITES already have it. And others don't. That's called INEQUALITY.

When you said:

I assumed that you were white becasue of your complaing that you couldn't have a white expo. If I'm wrong and I offended I apologize.

blahblah454

I have a good friend who used to work at a movie warehouse. One of his coworkers was a black male, the black guy did not get along well with my friend because my friend is a "punk" (has a mohawk and wears tight pants with patches on them...). Now most of you may think that this is a one sided story because he is my friend, but know that I am not lying or exadurating. My friend is a very nice person and is incredibly understanding.
One day at work him and the black fellow got into a small argument about something to do with the job and the black guy started calling my friend a "cracker and a honkey" and lots of other such white racist comments, my friend said "Fuck you you fucking nigger". The black guy then punched my friend in the face and that was that. Someone told the supervisor what happened and my buddy got fired for being racist.... he used one racist comment and got punched in the face and he lost his job because he was being racist. Nothing even back happened to the black fellow.

Just thought you should all know this, this is a what happens on the other side of the fence.

I am also not racist, I have several black friends, filipino friends, asians, russian friends and so on. I am as white as they come and can hate white people as much as anyone else.

sapiens

I think that what Mayor Nagin said was racist, but I have no problem with events like "black expos".

I see "white expos" all the time: Celtic Festivals, Polish Festivals, Oktoberfests, etc. To me, black expos are the equivalent of an Oktoberfest - a cultural event for African-Americans.

djtestudo

Those aren't racial; they're ethnic.

I've never seen a promo on the news for an upcoming Malian or Ethiopian festival.

__________________
"Final thought: I just rented Michael Moore's Bowling for Columbine. Frankly, it was the worst sports movie I've ever seen."
--Peter Schmuck, The (Baltimore) Sun

xepherys

I know this will sound racist, and I apologiuze profusely in advance... but if it was a white city, and someone got the buses up and running... it would've likely been those same white people. I'm not saying there aren't white people who are lazy pieces of shit trying to take davantage of the system... but realistically, I wonder what percentage of displaced white people are still in hotels living on the Federal tab as opposed to the percentage of displaced black people.

At heart I'm not racist, but the continual "double standard" make me furious. Black people get a lot of shit because they still TRY to be so fucking different. If you want to be equal, ACT LIKE FUCKING EQUALS. Don't have shit like Affirmitive Action. That makes you UNEQUAL. This goes for all minority groups. Don't expect shit to fall into your laps, and then turn around and expect the majority not to be pissed. Look at the UK. They have black people. Those black people TALK like the white people, are EDUCATED like the white people and get PAID like the white people. They don't try to be some crazy fucking super "My ancestors were slaves you owe me some crazy shit, yo!" black people. They try to be British citizens. Why the hell do minorities living in America think they are entitled to ANYTHING that I, as a white male, am NOT.

Even typing this I can feel my blood starting to boil over, so for now, I'll leave it at this. But frankly, I think it's bullshit. I don't care if he's black, white, red, green, orange or purple... if he thinks he deserves something more than others because of his color, he's a completely useless piece of shit.

You know what, I will move to Rome and demand reperations for the murder of my savior and the oppression of my distant ancestors. I demand money, land and free education because 2000 years ago, they shat upon my relatives. Sounds pretty fucking stupid, right? God, I certainly hope most of you think it does...

maximusveritas

The thing is, slavery didn't happen 2000 years ago. The Emancipation Proclamation was signed about 140 years ago. MLK was shot less than 40 years ago. I'm not sure how some people think we can just move on from such things so fast. It's true that some black people take advantage of this and "blame whitey" for all their problems as an excuse, but at the same time you can't just pretend slavery and racism never happened and that we can just go about our merry ways. These things happened and they still affect how things are today.

Seer666

I get bent by it. I hate segrigation in pretty much all it's forms. Except Isreal, and that is because I am scared shitless of them They some bad mamajamas.

__________________
Bad spellers of the world untie!!!

I am the one you warned me of

I seem to have misplaced the bullet with your name on it, but I have a whole box addressed to occupant.

xepherys

You can't pretend they never happened... one needs to elarn thier lessons from the past. However, you DO have to get over it. You can't expect equality, and expect to be treated differently. Those two things are, in fact, mutually exclusive. So, black people in America can either dwell on the past, or they can become equals. Black people and white people don't have to be the SAME. But they have to deserve the SAME THINGS.

alansmithee

The problem is, it's not up to black people. Black people have tried the "grin and bear it" technique, but it doesn't work. If whites don't want blacks to be equal, they won't. And there's no evidence that whites want blacks to be equal. If they did, they would take real steps to erase the vast inequalities they created. I agree that blacks deserve to have the same things as whites, but it's up to the whites (as the people with the power) to give them up. And that's not happening. Racism isn't something that went away in the '60's, it's just as damaging now as it was then. Every black person lives daily with racism of some form or other. And I've given up thinking that will ever change, so the best thing blacks can do now is improve their economic position as much as possible so they can try to take care of themselves.

Hardknock

Amen. Well said.

Seer666

At this point I would just like to say..
Ask Bill Cosby. He said what I think, but would be labeled racist for saying. Oh yeah, as a white, I really wish I knew what this so called power is that people think I have to give up. Maybe Colen Powell can tell me.

__________________
Bad spellers of the world untie!!!

I am the one you warned me of

I seem to have misplaced the bullet with your name on it, but I have a whole box addressed to occupant.

Seer666

Oktoberfest isn't abour race. It's about beer, the one thing all races can agree on.

__________________
Bad spellers of the world untie!!!

I am the one you warned me of

I seem to have misplaced the bullet with your name on it, but I have a whole box addressed to occupant.

SirLance

Bullshit. Ever hear of Lyndon Baines Johnson? President? Signed the 1964 Civil Rights Act? How about John Fitzgerald Kennedy? Sent troops to alabama and missisipi to ENSURE the court ordered end of school segregation.

They were white guys. So were the judges that ordered the end of segregation in public schools.

You have absolutely no idea how many white people in positions of power work to end racism. Your attitude is cynical and not based in fact. But when people like Ray Nagin stand up and say stupid things, it doesn't help, and that's the whole point of this thread.

__________________
DEMOCRACY is where your vote counts, FEUDALISM is where your count votes.

xepherys

I also call bullshit on this. First of all, they have to want to be equal. I grew up just outside of Detroit. I can't even begin to tell you the number of times that I'd go somewhere to buy something, say at a restaraunt, and the black person behind the counter wouldn't help me, I'm sure because I was white. Or they would help me, but they were more concerned with chatting it up with their buddies, being obnoxious and not actually making my food. You know what... there are plenty of black people from bad parts of town that are successful. Some are doctors, lawyers, GOOD politicians, business owners, community leaders... how can they be all those things if there's such a pervasive attitude of racism these days? They couldn't... and there's NOT. In fact, there's more reverse racism than anything. You want to go to college but can't afford it? Aww, that's sad. Oh wait, your BLACK? Oh hell, come on then, get a degree. Those 200 white kids don't get that chance. Then there's there NAACP... they have college funds for black kids. Can I start an NAAWP and give away money to white people and only white people? Of COURSE not... wait, you're right, that IS racism... but it's against the majority. And the argument that "you can't be racist against the majority" is bullshit... racism is racism. Black people CAN be anything they want to be... many just CHOOSE to be thugs and punks and then blame it on white people. White trash people that choose to be undereducated, live in a messy trailer and live off of welfare don't generally say it's black people's faults. *boggle* Blaming all your problems on white people, and then taking advantage of social programs doesn't really move the equality effort forward. Getitng off of your ass and making something of yourself... THAT might be a good plan. When I moved down to Arizona last year, it was a real eye-opener. I'd always heard racist banter against mexicans, too. How lazy they are. How they're all illegals and taking our jobs. You know what? Most of the mexicans that I've encountered down here actually take pride in their work, even if they're working at McDonald's. That something I almost NEVER EVER saw with black people in Detroit. Mexicans certianly haven't "gained equality" in the US quite yet, but I bet they get it long before black people, and they've not been here in such numbers for nearly as long. It's kinda crazy, don't you think?

alansmithee

Don't get me wrong, I also agree with Cosby. Too many blacks are too self-pitying. But it doesn't somehow eliminate the wrongdoing of whites. And the reason whites would be labelled racist for saying what he said is because they are the cause of many of the problems that people like Cosby are trying to solve. Just this week, in my english class we finished reading Song of Solomon, by Toni Morrison. The teacher (a white person) asked me why I didn't like the book. I told her it was because it largely showed blacks to be superstitious and backwards. She said if someone who wasn't a "person of color" had made the same critique, she would've said he had no right. And she was right, because much of the superstition and backwardness in that book was the cause of whites making ignorance a part of black culture.

And the fact that you actually have to name a black guy with some power proves my point more than I ever had to.

alansmithee

No, I do have an idea how many work to end racism. I also know that many more don't care, or work to ensure racism continues.

And again, my point is proven. It took WHITE PEOPLE to give blacks any shot at equality (even the half-assed attempts that were made).

alansmithee

If you believe this, you are crazy (or a racist). Just because that some people succeed, doesn't mean that there's no racism. The whole economic system in America was fuelled by racism. And the roots remain to this day. The examples of "reverse racism" you mentioned are there to help deal with the economic inequalities between whites and blacks. It's because these things are NEEDED to even attempt to give equal footing. The reason there doesn't need to be a "NAAWP" (and actually its' the United Negro College Fund which gives scholarships, but why let facts get in the way of a little racism, hasn't stopped anyone before) is because whites start ahead of blacks 9 times out of 10. You don't need a head start when you're already starting ahead in the race. It's not racism, its attempting to rectify wrongs committed against blacks in the past, and today. It's true, black people can be whatever they want, but it's about twice as hard for them as it is for white people. And comparing the plight of blacks to any other ethnicity in America is wrong. You fail to understand the true effects of slavery. The biggest effect of slavery wasn't the forced labor, it was the total cultural destruction and the subsequent brainwashing. Essentially, the slave trade created a race of people in America with no cultural roots, and who were taught that ignorance and poverty was there lot. There hav been some efforts to reconnect with the past, but they are doomed to fail. Blacks have almost nothing in common with Africans at this point in time. The reason that other minorities will exceed blacks is that they have roots that are not embedded in ignorance, they have a culture outside of the racism they find in the US to draw upon. Blacks in America don't have that, and it's hard to fight 300+ years of ingrained ignorance. And thoughts like your's don't help-whites have already won, now they are just rubbing salt in the wounds. They don't want to deal with the lasting impacts of what they have done and continue to do, so now they have switched to attack mode. Again, they think because there's not lynchings or slavery that racism magically went away. Maybe if you would actually try to TALK with black people who aren't serving you food you would understand some of these things. But that would probably entail you taking off your white hood and sheet.

maximusveritas

Just to add on to what alansmithee has said, you can't enslave a people for over a hundred years, openly discriminate against them for another hundred, and then expect them to just "get over it" in a matter of just 40 years all by themselves. It's not enough to just remember these events as something that were committed by other people long ago. Their effects still carry on today and racism still exists, though it often takes something like Nagin's speech to bring it out into the open.

xepherys

1. NAACP Education Scholarship Home the NAACP also gives scholarships. I wasn't aware it was a quiz where I had to name ALL of the organizations that give black people scholarships. But "why let facts get in the way of a little reverse racism".

2. Ahead of what? I agree that slavery is, obviously, a bad thing, regardless oif the color of skin. White people have enslaved white people throughout history, too. Asians have owned asian slaves. Slavery is a long part of history, and is often times not racially motivated. Black Americans are free to go to Africa and live tribal lives just like white Americans are free to go back to England or Ireland or Germany or wherever they came from. If it's so damned tough to make it in our democratic, capitalist society. People come to the US from all over the world and do just fine. They escape poverty and ignorance, come to America and start businesses and go to school. But somehoe the black people who have lived here the whole time can't? I didn't realize there wasn't racism against Mexicans, Arabs, Chinese, Japanese. Do you remember ethnic distaste for the Irish back in the day? They still made it. There are plenty of people who hate all kinds of people for a lot of different reasons, and Americans of African decent are no better or worse off. They play the slave card and race card and get things for free, and that doesn't harbor a sense of equality with other people.

3. Bullshit! What cultural roots do most 7th or 8th generation Americans have? AMERICAN culture... that's what. And that's what black Americans have as well. It is really no different. I have Irish blood running through my veins. When my family came here from Ireland they were put into shitty jobs, treated like dirt and made to feel they were worthless humans with no value to society. Should I be angry about that? NO! My family worked hard, got through it and now things are easier. As for it being twice as difficult for blacks to become successful I have two thoughts. a) Many people feel it's the same for women... and sexism is just as bad. However, "nazi feminists" don't move their cause forward with the general populace either, and b) So they work twice as hard then, and THEN they can feel like they've made a difference. What does it really give a black man or woman in a matter of sense of completion to just be handed shit and told them it's because we treated them badly in the past. Wow, what a great win for equality. *boggle*

4. I've never owned a slave. I've never disliked or looked down on someone SIMPLY because of the color of their skin. I've never made racist or hateful remarks towards someone because of their race. Therefore, my tax dollars should not go to legislation that protects and helps black people above and beyond white people. I also have native american ancestry and I think it's bullshit that they get special treatment. It was HUNDREDS of years ago. That's even more ridiculous. I've never applied for anything as a native american, never tried to get special hunting/fishing permits because it goes against the grain of equality. People just need to get the fuck over the past and try to make a better future. It's one thing to learn a lesson, it's another to dwell on the negative.

At any rate, your particular flavor of leftist beliefs are exactly why black people aren't equal still, you feed into that bullshit "non-culture" and probably vote to give them more and more welfare and free help. That's great! I wish you could vote to only use your income tax for such purposes. Helping people get on their feet is great... handing them shit doens't help "establish" them in any reasonable way.


Edit:

Oh, by the way, while I'm happy to take arguments and comments against my political and social views, I think it's quite immature of you to imply that I am a member of a hateful organization. Let's try a different approach. A mexican legally moves to the states, gets a SSN and a legit job. Now HE has to help fund black ignorance and laziness, even though his ancestors never kept black slaves (well, not likely at least). It's not black people I don't like... it's specifically lazy, ignorant American black people. I don't care for lazy, ignorant American WHITE people either, and I think they are also given WAY to much in the form of welfare and free aid. The former group just has a bit of a heads up on them in the free stuff department. Oh wait, some demographics of American blacks have better options than some demographics of American whites? Wow, who'd have thought? At any rate, I lived outside of Detroit for 28 years, you don't think I knew black people and had black friends. Most of them went to college, most of them had professional parents. A few had blue collar parents that probably worked right alongside my own blue collar parents. It's ass-busting work that involves sweat and tears, long hours and shitty pay. But they did it, and their families are better for it. I think those people (white or black or hispanic or asian) that put in a hard days work to make their lives and the lives of their families better are fucking AWESOME. That's what America is all about. Why is it so hard for the left to see this?

Edit2:

alansmithee... if it's so important for us as white folk to give and help the black folk to come to an equal footing, what have you PERSONALLY done? Have you tutored a poor black student? Given to the NAACP or UNCF? Have you supported black politicians? I'm not saying you've done nothing, I honestly don't know. But you seem to think it's very important, so I'm curious what contributions you have made, that were not forced by federal, state or local governments (taxes and affirmative action and such) that help better the standing of the Afircan American people.

SirLance

You really need to learn some history, and some law. It took blacks to give black people power. Let's start with Rosa Parks. Add in Martin Luther King, and everyone else associated with the SCLC. Naming white people who work for racial equality does not imply that only white people have the power to grant it. When will they teach you how to think in this college you attend?

__________________
DEMOCRACY is where your vote counts, FEUDALISM is where your count votes.

maximusveritas

I think we all need to calm down here a little bit. This is obviously a very important topic, but let's take a step back and stop making this so personal.

alansmithee

The slavery practiced in America was unique from the previous efforts. You know nothing of the issue. Part of the problem is that for Blacks to go back to Africa and live "tribal lives", they would have to have some connection to Africa (ignoring the fact that Europe raped Africa). Slave traders made sure that black americans would have no link to Africa. Your own sentence proves this-because you are black, you can just go back to Africa, as if Africa was one unified continent as opposed to very diverse and different countries. But you aren't saying whites should just go back to Europe, they get to know the history that their ancestors came from. And where did I say there wasn't racism against other minorities? The difference is that the other minorities have some other culture to call their own, which was the most damaging thing about American racism. Slave traders and owners took whatever culture Africans had, and insted replaced it with a culture of ignorance, superstition, and poverty. They don't play the lave or race cards to get things for free, they just want acknowledgement of the wrongs that were done to them and continue to be done.

It's totally different. You are a fool if you think otherwise. Someone who is 8th or 9th gen can still look back at the French, English, or wherever for a cultural past (as you yourself pointed out above). And for you to even equate what the Irish went through is ridiculous. It's not anywhere in the same league. And the culture given black americans is totally different from what white americans have.

And how someone who is so worried about "equality" can think it's fine for anyone to have to work twice as hard for anything just shows how internally inconsistant your views are. The reason things must be "given" is that so in later generations, blacks can give their children the same opportunities that whites are able to give theirs. Because now, no matter what benefits I give my child, it won't be able to conpensate for the major negative they get from me-dark skin.

You were making racist and hateful remarks based on race earlier, for one. But the reason yoru tax dollars should go to help and protect blacks over whites is because your white skin gets you benefits that you didn't earn every day. It's easy to get over the past when it was your people doing all the wrongs, and you who now reaps the benefits. When it was you being shit on, and who are now stuck in shit, it might not seem so easy to just move on.

As an aside, I find it extremely amusing that you would label me leftist.

And you obviously know nothing about me or what I stand for. I do believe that whites owe blacks a debt that they to this day fail to acknowledge. But I'm 100% against welfare and "free help". What I am in favor for is making sure that blacks gain the same benefits due to their skin color that whites do.

Again, you seem to see everything as a handout. That's not what it's about. What it is about is making sure that blacks today have the same chance to succeed as whites. And currently, without certain programs that is not possible. You can go on believing this crap about "reverse racism" and handouts all you want, but it doesn't make it any more true (outside of the clan rallys at least).


Again, it amuses me to no end to see me called a leftist.

As to your comments, the way I see it, if the robe fits wear it. And I'm sure you're a member of probably the most hateful organization ever-the White Americans.

Nowhere did I say I supported welfare. Welfare is a crutch that Dems feed blacks to try to keep them in line. But the fact remains that blacks in America are disproportately in a lower socioeconomic status. And something should be done because of this, besides telling black people "sure, we screwed you before, and will continue to screw you, but you should just grin and bear it because it's AMERICA!". Welfare is not the answer, but there are many other ways of if not guaranteeing equality (because let's face it, whites as a whole will never see blacks as equals) at least allowing blacks to sink or swim on their own on a more equalized level. And if you still think America is about hard work, sweat, and tears, you're extremely naive.

Oops, I take it all back, why didn't you tell me you had a black friend? Obviously that qualifies you to discuss fully all matters of race, and makes you immediately an expert. Golly gee Mr. White man suh, us poo' in'nant nigrahs be so lucky to haves sum'un like you speakin' out for'n us. Oh, where woud us'n be without y'all kind whites to be lookin' out for us?[/quote]

Of course I tutored poor black students-only I call them my friends. And I give to UNCF-it's called my bank account. And I support black politicians who deserve my vote, unfortunately in my state usually they have a (D) by their name.

How am I helping better the standing of "African" American people? I have no idea, I don't know anyone from Africa. But as for blacks, I'm doing best for myself. I long ago realized that whites will do their best to make sure that blacks are not going to have an equal shot. Blacks are pretty much doomed in America. Whites have managed to create an ethnic group that has it's roots in poverty and ignorance, and taken steps throughout the years to make sure they stay there. I sometimes would think about what would be necessary to try to bring equality for blacks in America, but short of blinding everyone at birth and forcing everyone to shave their heads nothing will work. So I help blacks by looking out for myself. So at least there will be one negro that whites won't keep down.

History and law? Please. What does a tired old woman and some philandering Unkle Tom have to do with blacks having power in America? MLK made sure that some whites pitied blacks enough to stop the most open forms of racism, that's about it. The best thing he did for black civil rights was get assassinated. If nat'l guard weren't sent in, schools in the south would still be segregated, and that wasn't the doing of a black man (or woman). It seems obvious to me that you don't have any idea what you are talking about. I didn't have to go to college to learn to think, but it might do you some good. Because it's obvious from your statement that thinking isn't something you're very proficient at.

Hardknock

So let me get this straight, you're saying that blacks have the roots of American culture to draw upon when we say that our connection with Africa has been lost? Is that American culture the same American culture that enslaved my ancestors for a couple hundred years and treated us like shit up until 40 years ago when brave individuals finally stood up and said enough is enough? If that's all the roots I have then frankly, I have nothing and my background is completely and forever lost. It must be nice to be able to go to Ireland and be welcomed by the Irish. I can't do the same. I was born and raised in the state of Alaska. When I tell people this, they always have this wierd look in their face and they always ask me "You're from Alaska?" I say yes and they still have this puzzled look on their face. No one has had the balls to say it to my face yet, but they all think and have the look on their faces that screams "how can a black person come from Alaska?" You don't know how much it hurts to not have a "homeland" per se. A place when you can draw your roots from. I actually envy people who still have their culture to draw upon and have the ability to visit their homelands and be welcomed by everyone. Blacks in America will never have that. We're actually disliked by most Africans due to the fact that we're so disconnected. Personally, it hurts just little bit every single day.

I agree with Cosby as well and I think that if all blacks in America went out and got a good education, and made something out of themselves, we would all be a lot better off than we are right now. Personally, I try to do everything I can to place myself and my family in a good economic position by getting my education and excelling in my career or whatever it is I decide to do so that everyone who died in the civil rights movement in the 60's didn't die in vain. I and every other person of color owe then at least that much.

alansmithee

Exactly. Nobody in Africa considers me their relation. And even if there were some people who would, how would I find them? Slave traders didn't exactly keep geneologies.

100% correct. Nothing more needs to be said.

timalkin

The biggest obstacles in guaranteeing equality for everyone are people like alansmithee. It doesn't matter how hard I try, I am unable to see people for who they are. I am forced to see the color of a person's skin, because that is what most black people want. They don't want to be treated equally. They want to be held apart from the crowd and recognized for being different.

Do you honestly believe that the NAACP and Jesse Jackson and crew will EVER go away? Hell no. What would they do for a living if they couldn't constantly shout about how the poor black person is so stepped on and put down? If I could guarantee that American society will be color blind starting tomorrow and will stay that way for eternity, black rights groups would still be doing what they do best.

I am the biggest non-racist that I know. I truly see people for the content of their character and not the color of their skin. I am blatantly called a racist because of this, however. Anyone who doesn't feel sorry for black people is called a racist. How fucked up is that?

__________________
Trinity: "What do you need?"

Neo: "Guns. Lots of guns."

-The Matrix

xepherys

Wow, those last few posts were some of the most ignorant hogwash I've yet to see on TFP. First of all, just becuase I have Irish heritage doesn't mean I can fly to Ireland and live like a king. Having abackgorund means just that... it's a background. Some people like theirs, others don't... but your background doesn't make or break you, sorry...

Also, I'm glad that my having black friends doesn't make me master of all things racial. Since you are apparently not white, alansmithee (this is what I gather from your post after mine) then you must know ALL about white Americans, and our hate for you, and disdain, and how absolutely none of us consider you equal. Hell, I bet you think we'd go back to slavery at the drop of a hat if the law allowed it. WTF are you smoking? First of all, it was white people who SAW the error in slavery that abolished it in the first place. When slavery was outlawed in the US, what black people were helping write those laws? Oh, there WEREN'T any... it was WHITE people writing laws to abolish slavery. Hmmm, crazy. Also, just because a white guy doesn't want to pay for your kids to go to college doesn't mean he's racist. Again, I'm sorry to pop your deluded bubble... it's just the way things are. Also, where have I made racist and hateful remarks? I don't seem to see any in my previous posts, so I'm curious what I wrote that fits either of those categories? ANything I've said has been from life experience. I also don't put all black people into the same boat... nor do I with people of ANY race, including my own. There are pieces of shit with every color of skin imaginable, but those people and their mistakes shouldn't cost me anything because I share their skin color either. I never kept slaves, neither did my parents. Why the hell should I OWE you anything because you're black and I'm white? Great, it's only been 40 years. I know, it sucks. I feel real bad it happened... but *I* didn't do any goddamend thing. I'm not saying you can just go back to Africa... the comment was made to show how inane any arguments are of "going back home".

Okay, I acknowledge it. Bad... no, VERY bad things were done to black people by white people in America. Yes, there are still racist assholes who would as soon lynch a black man as look at him. I'm sorry for that. Not because I'm white and they might be as well, but because nobody should hate someone else like that no matter what. So, I've acknowledged it now. I expect that you'll make sure my child has the same chance to get into a state college that yours does, and that yours won't get in solely to make a quota. Oh, it's NOT acknowledgement you want? It's eqaulity... but how do you get it? Excuse me, what can I, as a middle-class American white male do, personally, to ensure that you are my equal? I mean, at a bare minimum it can start with one white man helping a black man, right? You said yourself that we are the ones with the power and we have to GIVE that power to you. What is it that I have that will help you? Seriously? I'm not being a dick, I just don't understand. Is it money? I don't really have any... but if you NEED money, well, let me know. Is it an education? I assume that, since you are posting here and making rather intelligent arguments (though I completely disagree with them) that you are educated, either via institution or self-educated. But can I help you in school? Can I give your kids a job? What can *I* do to help your family feel mor equal? Will giving you money, and a job and a house in white suburbia make you equal? Would you FEEL equal? I assume since you call MLK an Uncle Tom that those items probably wouldn't suit you... so what is it you REALLY want? You complain that you don't have it... but nobody has defined "it" to this point, and I'm quite curious. Wait!

So, I assume this snide remark means you don't WANT anything from us... but you keep saying you do. You're the one who doesn't have a straight story. You're just pissed to have dark skin and live in America, and somehow you like to think I'm to blame for something because I have white skin and live in America. Holy shit... THAT'S RACISM!!! Sorry, the only one not attending a meeting of osme sort seems to be me. Next time I go "get the sheet" I'll expect you'll be wearing your colors out your back pocket and will come "jack me up" for being such a piece of shit. Wow, it's pretty silly how fucking dumb that sounds isn't it...

alansmithee

That's the most ignorant thing I've heard in awhile. Why the hell would anyone want to be black? I guess I like being pulled over more than my white friends, or randomly questioned by police when walking. Or maybe I like the fact that there are cities that I can't go into unless I want to be stared at and harrassed. Or perhaps I like the fact that everything I ever do will always be followed by "for a black man", i.e. he's so smart...for a black man. He's so well spoken...for a black man. There's nothing more I would like than to be able to have someplace where I WOULDN'T stand out that isn't some urban shithole. I remember when I was in high school, going to the mall with my friends. The only other black people I would see were employees. And you are trying to say I want to be singled out?

And if you're the biggest non-racist you know, you must hang around exclusively with nazis and KKK members. Not feeling sorry for blacks doesn't make you a racist, being a white guy who thinks you know about being black in America does. You don't have any idea what it's like. When you spout your garbage, you only show ths more.

I assume you were talking about your posts, which then yes I would agree they are ignorant hogwash. And it's not about a background making or breaking you. But when you are a minority, it helps to have some sort of support structure based upon shared triumphs and culture. This was denied blacks in America.

I'm sure I know more about whites than you about blacks. For your information, my mother was white. As far as that side of my family goes, we can trace back to the first pilgrims that landed. It's also why I understand even more than some the value of haing a history, and what exactly it's loss can do. If I were to visit England and claim that my ancestors came from there, at best I would be laughed at because my skin's to dark and my hair's to curly. And I have no doubts that if it were allowed, the vote to return to slavery would be a toss-up. But one thing against slavery is the fact that it's extremely cost-ineffective, especially with the increased mechanization of so many jobs traditionally done by slaves. It's much cheaper to pay slave wages, and have workers have to buy their own food and housing.

And again, you fail to understand how affirmative action programs are designed. It's not about individuals, it's about making sure that on the average, blacks are given equal opportunities. For instance, if my kid wants to go to college, I'm sure I will be able to pay for it. But what about the kid who has a parent who wasn't given a job because he or she was black? Who will pay for that child's education? And since you can't isolate racism, there must be countermesures until there's some true semblance of equality. This is what you are failing to recognize. I really don't care about racism, what I care about is the economic inbalances created by racism both past and present.

And the rest of what you were saying, I have no idea what you're talking about. Sure, there are some whites who aren't total racists. But that doesn't mean that they don't notice race, or that they see blacks as equals.

Why the hell would you want your child to have the same chance of getting into college as mine? Only a fool would want that. Your child's skin will (presumably) be white, that already puts him ahead of any offspring I might have. I don't know where you get this crazy, deluded, bizzaro-world idea that being black offers some sort of benefit.

It's not about individuals. If you are really as "colorblind" as you say, you are probably doing all you can. What needs change is at the institutional level. What needs to be done is have a generation (or two, or however many it takes) of blacks being educated at an equal or higher level than whites, and then not being denied opportunities based on the color of their skin. It's as simple as that. Lots of this needs to come from within the black community, but what also needs to stop is this belief by some whites that blacks are getting unfair entitlements. These people don't complain when some black guy is dragged behind a truck, or when cops pull blacks over because of their skin color, or when you can't catch a cab with dark skin. But let them think a white guy isn't getting everything his skin color has always entitled him to in the past, and they are up in arms!

And as for feeling equal, I don't care. Personally, I will always feel superior to any whites who has the same things I do, or have the same relative jobs. Because whatever I do in America, I know I did it with a handicap. It's like running a race-sure, we may finish at the same time...but I had a 50 lb. weight on my back.

And MLK was an Uncle Tom not necessarily because of what he desired for blacks, but because of his means. He was like a lapdog, and an object of pity (and made blacks in the civil rights movements objects of pity). White people didn't change things because they felt they were correcting wrongs, or that blacks were equal and deserved better treatement (otherwise this discussion woudn't be occuring now). The surface changes came out of feeling sorry for blacks, much like you would feel for a beaten dog. They didn't identify with blacks as equal humans, but as some lesser creatures. And much of this stems from MLK.

No, I'm not saying I don't want anything. What I was saying is that because you say you had a couple of black friends, you somehow know more about black issues than black people. You're not to blame personally, but your attitude is to blame. And it's not racism, racism implys some feeling of superiority, or some threat of abusive or discriminatory behavior. And I find your last statement very telling. Because the way I see it, you were born with your sheet attached. And I'm always wearing my colors, it would be extremely difficult for me to take them off.

filtherton

Race relations in america are funny, because to a certain extent, every side is completely full of shit, but none of them want to admit that they are.

I guess that that's not really funny, though.

alpha phi

If quoting your past posts is flame bait...
what does that say about your posts?

It's obvious you want to bash Nagin.
He has offered his apology,
after realizing (or being told by advisors) many had taken offence.

Yet, you refuse to accept his apology saying:
Really.....what could Nagin say that would be acceptable to you?
There was more to his apology than that snipet
Mayor's Statement of Apology on the city website

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xepherys

I found my last statement, alansmithee, quite telling too. It tells of a white man who thinks that assuming all white people are KKK members is no different than assuming all black people are criminals and gansters. I don't think either are true, and neither should you. There is one thing you said that I agree with... but, of course, I think you are a bit short-sighted in a few areas still. First of all, I completely agree that people should NOT be DENIED opportunities based on the color of their skin. I completely agree... but that goes both ways. If I'm a business owner, and I have to hire a black man over a white man (theoretically) simply because the one man is black... that's not HELPFUL to the black man, and it's denying an opportunity to someone else whose skin color just happens to be white. There are plenty of impoverished, undereducated white folks in the US of A that can't afford college and aren't smart enough to get a better job. What hope do they have? White kids with average potential don't get scholarships from anyone. They don't get admitted to decent schools on merit of their background. They just get to let the cycle repeat. That's denying someone opportunity based on skin color as well. It's just more obvious when it happens to black people because white people aren't socially allowed to complain about it as a race issue.

I DO believe that many blacks get unfair entitlements... but I also DO complain and get upset about a man being dragged behind the truck, no matter what the hell color his skin is. I also think racial profiling is bullshit... whether it's because someone is black, or because someone is arabic... it's not the foundation of hope I'd like to see for my country.

You're right, my having black friends doesn't make me an expert on black people. I never said that it did. I don't know what you have to go through, but then, you don't know what it's like to be a pale white male in this country either. It's easy for you to assume it's all rose gardens and tea parties... but it's not like that in reality either. I've never treated someone badly because they were black... but I have been treated poorly by black people because I was white. I don't get bitter against blacks for it... I jsut think it's petty on the part of those particular people... just like I would if it was anyone else treating me poorly for reasons I didn't deserve. Are there racial problems in the US? Absolutely... and they stem from and are directed towards every race to one degree or another. Yes, whites are the majority. That part probably won't ever change. But expecting somehting for nothing won't help you become equal either. I think tolerance in this generation of kids is FAR greater than it was even when I was growing up. Black culture in America has been influential for decades now, and continues to be so. Eventually that "American" background that blacks are so angry about today will hopefully give way to the "American" background that all the other cultures in this coutnry feel, regardless of how light or dark their skin is. Sure, you don't have an old culture to fall back on... so develop a respectable part of this countries culture. Strive to be a part of something larger than yourself or your community. Don't be white... be black... but be a black American. To me, regardless of my heritage, outside of debates like this, I don't consider myself Irish or Ukranian or Lakota Indian. I consider myself an American. The mexicans that live next door... I don't ever think, "hey, they're mexcians"... They're just Americans like me. If you were my neighbor, I'm sure I'd feel the same way about you. There are black people that live in my apartments. Sure, I NOTICE that they're black. No more or less than I notice a nice butt on a girl or a scar on a face or someone with long hair. It's a characteristic that is part of who you are. I nod and smile and make smalltalk with them just like anyone else that lives here. Is that really THAT suprising to you? Would I invite them into my home to have dinner? Sure, if I knew them better. There are plenty of white people here I don't know either.

Cynthetiq

I'm in agreement with you.

No single PERSON grants you anything. The Bill of Rights does NOT give you the right to free speech, right to bear arms, etc. It states that YOU HAVE THE RIGHT FROM BIRTH.

Jews were slaves for hundreds of years. Do we hear them say that they cannot succeed, that they were being kept down? Possibly, I don't know, but I do know that their community takes care of themselves as best as they can to promote themselves and empower themselves.

Jewish ghettos existed here in NYC. Do they still exist? In fact the word "ghetto" was applied to them FIRST before it was applied to the black community if I recall my history correct.

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I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not.

Cynthetiq

I don't know but people are people and tend to emulate what they see culturally. So you have some people who try to embrace other cultures, Japanese, Chinese, and even Hip Hop which has become de facto Black culture du jour.

__________________
I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not.

alansmithee

Emulating something and living/being it are totally different. Sure, there's probably some white guys who would love to be black...right up until the time they want a job or police come by. They want to be able to play at being black, not actually be black.