Holy crap, I agree fully with alan. I have to go check if hell has frozen over.

cyn...actually, several of those T-shirts you posted were in fact protested for being racist. I remember specifically, the Wong Brothers laundry being pulled by A&F over the firestorm.

Race is such a tricky thing these days. No matter what one says you come off racist.

But I have an idea......... Fuck talking about color and everyone just treat everyone else like you would your brother, your sister, your mother, father or friend.

There is no black, white, yellow, red. We are all just people trying desperately to find happiness and peace in life. Why do we have to label others? Is it because our own self image is so fucking pathetic we have to point to someone that is different and put them down?

Base your opinion on someone by their actions and what they say and do, not on race, ethnicity, religion whatever.

We all bleed, we all feel pain, we all love and hate and cry and laugh.

When babies are born they do not know rich and poor, race, whatever prejudices and hatreds that may come.

They are taught all those things. And while this generation and the generations before us may be fucked up in that aspect, it is never too late to correct HOW YOU THINK.

Once you correct how you feel, maybe someone else will be inspired to correct themselves..... and so on and so on.

It's time to put the prejudices where they belong, in the past and to move on as brothers and sisters realizing we all just want some form of happiness and peace brought into our lives.

martin, that's exactly what my point is. It would have never gotten to the store shelves if it was about blacks.

pan, yes, hence my sig.

When Rosa parks gave up her seat, she was neither tired nor old. Martin Luther King an uncle tom? Desegregation was the doing of a black man, because it was a black man who brought the complaint that lead to the court ruling.

And yes, I know how to think. You only know how to be cynical, and apparently you are not very knowledgeable about black culture. Your posts reveal substantial ignorance. They are filled with assumptions having no basis in fact. You should pick up a book sometime.

You are saying black people have no control over their fate, and you are dead wrong. Your hateful, cynical attitude is an insult to black people, if you are black you should be ashamed of yourself, and if you are not you are a racist. No, actually, you are a racist either way.

I don't know that that claim can be made seriously...the briefest of surveys of a couple of several tshirt places online produced a plethora of shirts that would be offensive to african-americans...including several designs riffing on Bennett's advice on racial abortion and the crime rate.

Just not true, cynthetiq.

Not knowledgeable about black culture? Ignorant? No facts? Again, you reveal you know nothing. If you have nothing of value to add, don't bother opening your mouth. As the saying goes "it's better to be thought a fool, than to open your mouth and remove all doubt".

You don't provide a single refutation of what I said. You have no idea of the power dynamics in America, or what it means to be black. You are trying to make up things with no basis in reality to support your racism. I actually have no problem with true racists, but what I do find disgusting is people like you who are racist to the core, but need to try to lie to hide their racism. You say blacks broght the cases that led to desegregation? It was whites who DECIDED the cases, and whites who made sure the decisions were adhered to. All your arguement boils down to is some racist justification that blacks are lesser, because they obviously control their fate and choose poverty and ignorance. Put simply, you appear to be a fool; and a cowardly, racist one at that. I just hope you never have children to spead your ignorance and racism to. It's people like you who make it impossible for there to ever be any racial harmony.

Alan, i don't think that you're the only person here qualified to speak accurately about black and white culture in america. No one has the authority to speak on behalf of millions of people, regardless of shared characteristics. In fact, i would wager that everyone who has grown up in america has a valid perspective on any number of different american subcultures. It doesn't make sense for you to call people ignorant when you have no solid basis on which to consider yourself the absolute authority on race relations in this thread, which it seems as though you do.
In fact, it doesn't make sense for anyone to be throwing around the word ignorant, because you're all fucking ignorant. I am too. It's part of being human.
Race relations in america is an exceedingly complex issue made moreso by the fact that it is often impossible for any kind of respectful disagreement to occur between people with different perspectives. This thread is no exception.

I don't think that there will ever be an end to racism any time soon. I don't think that there will be an end to justifications for racism on behalf of all races any time soon.

I think that what nagin said was racist. It's obviously racist, by any objective measure of the word, but that's just me.

Alpha phi, if you wish to continue with personal attacks, please do so via pm.

Of course I want to bash Nagin, he's a fucking racist. It's actually hilarious that he even tried to make up for what he said. He has a history of giving racist speeches and then trying to make up for what he said by posting a shitty little blurb on a website.

The only thing that would be acceptable for Nagin to say is "I'm stepping down as Mayor." Trent Lott is run out of town for something innocent, yet Nagin can babble on about how God wants New Orleans to be black without anyone batting an eyelash. This obvious double standard is what perpetuates racism.

There will never be equality in this nation until events like this are appropriately punished.

alansmithee, if you are truly suffering from the things in your posts, such as racial profiling by police, job discrimination based upon race, etc., then why aren't you in court and suing for your rights to be restored? Everything that you mentioned is illegal in every state in the union.

Civilized people rely upon the court system to address legitimate grievances and receive some sort of restitution. Please don't tell me that white America runs the court system too.

Now you can't debate in public?
Someone who disagree with you must do so in a PM
If they agree they can post in public.
Ghezzz....Talk about a double standard :crazy:
Trent Lott is still a senator
His Senate page
He certainly didn't get run out of town.
I didn't think to much about his statement either.
When people make such a huge deal about these things
All the Hate and Outrage comes out.
Once we as a people can dismiss a poor choice of words
accept an apology and move on...we will be much closer
to removing racisim from our culture.

Am I the only person qualified? No, I'm not. But I'm sure I'm more qualified than whites who think that all blacks are lazy and self-piting. And I'm sure that many people who grow up in America do have valid criticisms about other cultures, but I'm seeing very few in this thread. And to say we're all ignorant is a cop-out. You can take that view about all knowledge-it's all assumptions based upon our perseption of reality. But taking that view means you can make no judgement on anything, nor discuss any subject. It's a dead-end. So I prefer to use "ignorance" to refer to people whose ignorance is relatively higher in some areas, and not as a blanket designation for everyone.

And what Nagin said wasn't racist. He was neither saying one race was superior, nor was there discrimination or threat or abuse in his statement. Just becuase someone mentions race does not immediately make that statement racist.

Racial profiling is illegal?

And have you ever tried proving a racial discrimination case in the courts? It's almost impossible. Usually requiring a direct statement from someone in charge such as "I did not hire person X due to race" to be recorded.

And it isn't so much white america which runs the courts, but those with a higher economic status. It just so happens that those people more often than not are white. And many valid cases are dismissed in the courts, due often to the disparity in economics. It takes money to go to court. The court system isn't the perfect entity you are trying to make it out to be.

Online is NOT the same as going to the mall in your local neighborhood.

If we were to suggest that online and offline were equal in specialty things from clothing to foodstuffs then I'd be in agreement, but I have lived in areas where Asian food items were hard to procure.

I never said that I wanted to continue this debate in private. I said that if you wanted to continue with PERSONAL ATTACKS, then please do so via pm. Implying that I am a racist and/or a Klan member really has no place in a civilized debate and merely serves to derail the thread.

alansmithee, of course racial profiling is illegal. Do you know what racial profiling is?

I'm sure it is quite hard to effectively argue a racial discrimination case in court. It's hard to prove anything without evidence. And if there is no evidence, can you truly say that a black person was passed over for a job because of their race? It's a bit of a cop out to say that you didn't get what you wanted because of what color you are. Perhaps you didn't get what you wanted because you weren't the most qualified candidate?

I never said that the court system is perfect. Anything run by human beings will never be perfect, but your last post mentions economic status. Are you discriminated against because of your race or economic status? Economic status is an entirely different debate, and implying that black members of the judicial system are conspiring with whites to keep the black man down are irresponsible.

Same goes for white folks. Just sayin'.

But to get back on topic, I think Nagin's gone a little loopy from all the stress, and I can't say I blame him. His comments were a little bizarre, and certainly imprudent, and I tend to automatically dismiss anyone who claims to know what "God wants." But still, I didn't find his comments particularly offensive; I mean, I got what he was saying and I wouldn't call it a "racist" sentiment. Maybe a little defensive, a little reactionary, a little overwrought, a little wacky in the delivery...but I'm cutting the guy a little slack after everything he's been through.

That city got SO FUCKED...and most Americans seem completely oblivious to the ongoing aftermath of Katrina...we've all gone merrily back to our business, glued to the latest episode of American Idol, importing our CD collections into our Christmas iPods, posting on our favorite internet forums (hey, I'm guilty too--except for the American Idol part; I despise all forms of "reality" TV...). I know that there were massive failures on all levels of government and society, but I really do have a hard time escaping the nagging feeling that if NOLA had not been majority poor and black, things would have been different--not only in the days immediately following the storm, but also in the ensuing efforts to clean up and rebuild the city, and to help the people whose entire lives have been devastated by the floodwaters. And let me just say that I think "poor" is the more crucial operative word there. I also believe that if NOLA had been majority middle-class and black, things would have happened differently than they did in the wake of Katrina.

America is a deeply, deeply racist country. It's baked into us, whether we like it or not. Even if we consciously think that the concept of white folks' superiority over everyone else is total bunk, it's really hard to escape having various manifestations of that notion hammered into your psyche against your will--and this is true regardless of your race (which is why I tend to think that the "racism" of black folks against whites isn't quite comparable to the racism that goes in the other direction; it's in a different category, IMHO.) I'd even argue that anyone who says "I'm not a racist" is not self-aware enough. I'm a racist, unfortunately, but I make a constant, conscious, concerted effort to be aware of my racism; to catch myself when I realize that I'm buying into a stereotype, or making prejudgments about people based on race or ethnicity. I think just being able to recognize this in ourselves when it happens is half the battle against racism...

Valentina thank you for your perspective.
That makes a lot of sense.

I have refuted all you have said, it is simply that you'd rather adhere to your hate than to open your eyes and see the truth.

You can call me a coward, but I'm a coward with two bronze stars and a purple heart, all earned defending your right to spout your idiocy. But, it's easy to spout your shit, because you get to remain anonymous and don't have the opportunity to say it to my face. You obviously don't have the courage.

As to whether or not I am a racist, you are not competent to judge. It is clear from your posts, however, that you are certainly a racist, and a hateful individual.

I find Bill to be one of my favorite ebonics bashers, not just because he is a black man, but because, how fucked up does a someone have to speak for the creator of Mush Mouth to slam them? Ironic, no? The ignorance flows both ways on the race realations though. How many black standup comics you see doing he "Buffy and Biff" white people jokes? I admit even I find it funny mocking the rich snobs, but truth betold, it's the same level of racisim and ignorance, but somehow it's ok because, well, whity has it coming. It's the double standard that is in play that pisses me off. I never hated a person because of there race, I have never owned a slave, I have never comited a hate crime. Yet I'm supposed to feel quilty about thing that happend before most of my family even got over here? Doesn't float with me. Oh yeah, your teacher is alittel over sensitive. I don't care what color you are, you have the right to be able to point out ignorance no matter what color you. I just wish people (black and white) would stop trying to draw lines at what you can say if you are ths color or that color. An asshole is an asshole is an asshole, and I don't care what color they are.

White people HAD to make the first step, given the time frame, and what the contry was like at the time. Of that I have no doubt. The ball is outo f hte white mans court now though, and has been a while. It's up to the back man to pick it up and play.