pan6467

Well instead of going to war we could always have Pat Robertson go on television and demand, "that his viewers, in the name of Jesus, pray to strike down those evil heathen and that God has taken our side cause we are always right...... oh wait except that town in Pa. and NO and that liberal state California and those pro choicers, and the gays and the people who disagree with Bush's actions and the liberal media and........."

Maybe that will work. It'll at least show other countries how sensible our President must be to have such a Righteous and Religious man as an advisor to him.

__________________
I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

pan6467

We're giving Iran a true choice aren't we? Even if the talk is just grandstanding and saber rattling to try to scare them.... It ain't working.

Momma and Daddy always said "don't make threats unless you intend to keep them and face the consequences of your actions."




LINK:http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060113/...E0BHNlYwN0bWE-

__________________
I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

cwis

i cant say much on this topic... but Iran is definately on the list for countries to watch out for. Not only for the States, but also in the international arena. Ability to make weapons grade nuclear matter + a tier 2 space program = ICBM. ICBM + "Near" rouge nation could equate to trouble. Hence, N. Korea. Old Soviet Union. Etc...

Locobot

rofls
If only we could get Tehran to host a gay pride event, nothing angers Robertson's god more. That's why God sends hurricanes at Orlando and what caused 9/11 too.

trickyy

did anyone see rice yesterday? her outfit looked a lot like a mao suit, obviously a subtle attempt to get china aboard. ok, i'm joking. but look (i wish i could find a better picture).





more on the topic at hand, here's an iran war game analysis if you're up for some reading for Friday evening. skip through the intro if you're in a hurry...they describe the methodology for several paragraphs.

samcol

I saw her a bit and all I could think was 'these people really want to go into iran, these people really want to go into iran, these people really want to go into iran,' it took forever for it to sink in. Im in awe that they believe we can invade yet another country despite what's been happening in iraq. These people are totally delusional.

Let the pro war propaganda begin, or continue actually.

Elphaba

Thanks, samcol, for the Truthout link to the Atlantic Monthly. It is a long article, but necessary reading IMO.

highthief

Maybe Pakistan is next! What the hell is the deal firing missiles into the territory of your most important ally in the Afghanistan fight and killing a couple dozen Pakistanis, includng women and children? Damn, even if you hit your target, you might never know with this approach.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/10842035/

ISLAMABAD, Pakistan - A dinner invitation to al-Qaida’s second-in-command triggered a U.S. airstrike in Pakistan’s tribal region but Ayman al-Zawahri failed to show up, Pakistani intelligence officials said on Sunday.

Pakistan condemned Friday’s strike, which killed at least 17 people, including women and children, and summoned U.S. ambassador Ryan Crocker to protest. Thousands of local tribesmen also rallied near the scene, chanting anti-American slogans.

The Foreign Ministry said on Saturday that foreigners had been near the village of Damadola in the Bajaur region bordering Afghanistan and were the probable target.

Pakistani intelligence officials said they were checking reports up to seven foreign militants had been killed and their bodies removed by local supporters. But they said there were no indications Osama bin Laden’s deputy, al-Zawahri, was there.

“He was invited for the dinner, but we have no evidence he was present,” a senior intelligence official told Reuters.

Arabiya television reported on Saturday, quoting a source which it said has contact with al-Qaida, that al-Zawahri was still alive.

"Reports of his death are wishful thinking," it quoted unnamed sources as saying. The station gave no further details.

Al-Zawahri was believed to be in Damodola to celebrate Eid, the Muslim festival that coincides with the hajj, along with several other high-ranking al-Qaida officials, according to U.S. counter terrorism and intelligence officials.

"A group was gathering there, celebrating Eid," a senior U.S. counter terrorism official told NBC News. "He was supposed to be there and there is good reason to believe he was there. We are not talking about a 'strong hope' he was there. We had good intelligence."

Officials were listening for any "chatter" that would indicate Zawahri is dead or alive, believing that that will give them the first hint of his fate.

A senior U.S. intelligence official added that "some remains" had been retrieved from the area but would not say whether the remains were in the hands of Pakistani or U.S. officials.

Another Pakistani intelligence official said two local Islamist clerics, known for harboring al-Qaida militants, had attended the dinner but left hours before the airstrike at 3.00 a.m.

The U.S. sources said CIA-operated unmanned drones were believed to have been used in the attack. A Pakistani intelligence official said four missiles had been fired.

Washington has offered $25 million each for al-Zawahri and bin Laden, who have been on the run since U.S.-led forces toppled Afghanistan’s Taliban rulers in 2001 after the Sept. 11 attacks.

The two have long been thought to be hiding along the Afghan-Pakistan border under the protection of Pashtun tribes.

On Saturday, more than 8,000 tribesmen staged a peaceful protest in a nearby town to condemn the airstrike, which one speaker described as "open terrorism." Police dispersed a smaller protest in another town using tear gas. A mob torched the office of a U.S.-backed aid agency near Damadola, residents said.

The angry reaction to the strike comes just days after Pakistan, an important ally in the U.S.-led war on terrorism, lodged a strong protest with U.S.-led forces in Afghanistan, saying cross-border firing in a nearby tribal area last weekend had killed eight people.

Pakistan is a key ally in the U.S.-led war on terror and has deployed tens of thousands of troops along the Afghan border to hunt down al-Qaida and Taliban fighters, but it says it does not allow U.S. forces to operate on its soil.

Al-Zawahri is seen as the brains behind al-Qaida and has been its public face, denouncing the United States in repeated video messages, the most recent of which was broadcast this month.

Killing him would be a major victory for Washington in its battle against al-Qaida, which has lost much of its capability to launch attacks globally after a string of high profile arrests in Pakistan and elsewhere, analysts say.

Al-Zawahri, a doctor involved in Egypt’s radical Muslim Brotherhood in the 1960s, teamed up with bin Laden in Pakistan in the 1980s when both were involved in a jihad, backed by the United States, to end the Soviet occupation of Afghanistan.

__________________
Si vis pacem parabellum.

samcol

Well at least they could use our own planes against us if it escalated. I'm glad that at least someone (the defense contractors) will be winning the war on terror since they are supplying both sides of the conflicts.

pan6467

Well, how else is Bush going to pay for this war and for Pakistan's support?

Anyone believing Bush is doing this "to bring democracy around the world" needs to be drug tested or sent to a nice padded room.

What's going on in Iraq and the Middle East, has always been about Bush's agenda, not the country's best interests.

If this were truly about the country's best interests and not Bush's we would have never gone into Iraq and we would have Bin Laden and have pretty much shut down Al Quida.

Instead whenever one of our "allies" starts to question us and appear they may weaken relations with us, Al-Quida seems to bomb them. I would think it should be the other way around. When a country is more in support of us.... but what do I know.

This whole atmosphere of the Bush Administration:

- war in Iraq,
- the war on terror, that doesn't seem to be going after Bin Laden, that allows 10,000's of illegals (anyone of which could be a terrorist) to cross our Mexican border,
- and the torture prisons, the wiretaps, the mail openings......
- the massive deficits yet tax cuts and cuts in needed social programs

all smell to high Heaven. It's wrong and it's destroying us from within.

I doubt Pakistan will be next though, they don't have oil there. Besides as long as we give them arms so that they are superior to India, Pakistan won't say shit. If they do, we just start arming India and back them.

No, the Bush Administration and the press seem to be really working on Iran.

One can only hope and pray the Dems. get some seats back this year and stop this man.

And one can only fantasize that Bush will give up power in '08. After all he has been doing and all the crimes and lies he has committed, I truly worry about '08 and him leaving office. I don't think he will. I think if the Dems win anything this year, he'll try to disband Congress or just ignore them and do whatever he wants.

The proof that he will do whatever he wants, illegal, ethical, whatever obstacle, he thumbs his nose and does it anyway. He has already been shown us that he is all about the power and making sure the rich get tax cuts so that they won't care what he does.

__________________
I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

samcol

It is interesting that we are politicaly and geographically right in the middle of anything that happens between Israel and Iran. If they go at it, I don't think there's much we could do to not become involved. The situation is so frustrating it's hard to describe in words. This is going to get ugly.

pan6467

Except for the UK, we are pretty much going to be standing alone fighting a 3-4 front war (if we attack Iran, Syria will jump in). Russia and China will probably get involved realizing their best interests, and we could be looking at WW3 with very few if any allies.

Isreal seems to want us to keep pushing for some reason.... which I find odd. Iran I think is too proud and too scared to backdown, and China and Russia see this as their chance to capitalize on our weaknesses.

Here's a thought: what if we attack Iran and China decides to cash in on their debt?

China didn't have to draw one weapon on us they have us by the balls financially. If you truly don't think China would cash in or hold our economy hostage.... then you may need serious help. Because in the end, China will do what's in their best interest and if it looks like we're getting to close to them.... they'll nuke our economy faster and deadlier than any war ever could.

__________________
I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

highthief

China is a huge recipient of foreign investment in the world. Most of the that investment is from Japan, the US and now Taiwan, if you consider that foreign.

The question you need to ask is "What would happen to China if it went against the US?". Their economy would crash and they don't have a parachute. China does not pull the US strings, it's the other way around.

__________________
Si vis pacem parabellum.

pan6467

Who owes whom? The trade deficit shows otherwise. The fact that they own a huge amount of our Treasury debt says otherwise.

How do you figure we pull their strings? Their economy wouldn't crash, they need us to sell their goods to, but they can very easily start selling to Russia and the EU. The market maybe smaller but those countries aren't in as much debt and the markets are fresh and eventually will surpass the US. Especially if interest and inflationary rates here go up and people can't buy as much.

I think China holds the cards, our government is broke, we are a people that the average family is $1000's in debt and wages are dropping.

China is doing to the US what we did to the USSR. Bankrupting our government and capitalizing on our weaknesses. Either we adjust and figure ways to reduce the trade deficit or we accept the fact China owns us.

__________________
I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

highthief

China can't sell to Russia - Russia has no money! They're not buying squat. The EU is already China's largest trading partner, the US second and Japan third.

The people who control the market are the people who do the buying, not the people who do the selling. China cannot "replace" the US as a trading partner. The US, in a cold second, could replace China with Vietnam, Thailand, Malaysia, Indonesia or any combination of a bunch of different nations who would drop a nuclear bomb on their neighbours for the opportunity to business with the US in a similar fashion.

Buyers set markets, not sellers. China cutting off trade with the US would the US in the short term; the US cutting off trade with China would possibly tear that country apart.

__________________
Si vis pacem parabellum.

pan6467

I believe it to be the other way around, I hope we don't have to find out. Russia may not have money YET. But I don't see them being down for long, they have oil, they have some natural resources.



I see the scenario as follows:

We attack Iran

Iran and us war

China cuts ties and sells off all their dollars, flooding the market and killing us with inflation.

China sells their T-Bills and all investments in the US for whatever they want, basically devaluing our money to whatever level they want. Who's going to stop them?

They just dump the product that was going to come here to countries that can pay.

I don't see how you can say China doesn't have us by the balls when they do. All they have to do is squeeze just a bit to get whatever they need from us.

In other words let's say you and I are trading partners. I supply you with more than you supply me with. In fact you start closing widget factories and start relying heavily on my widgets as your sole source. So you are running a deficit. So deeply that you start having to collaterolize everything heavily and you have to work to keep the your value where it is so that you don't end up owing me far far more.

I keep loaning you money to buy my widgets. In the meantime I start opening trade with others and sell more widgets to other countries that actually pay and don't owe me as much.

Now, you go and run over my dog. I get pissed and demand you pay for all the past widgets you have of mine, I cash in your collaterol and finally I say, "Fuck you no more widgets, until you pay for the ones you already have."

You can't make widgets because you became dependant on mine and closed enough of your widget factories that you could never keep up with demand, nor do you have the money to build new widget factories. You don't have the market that can pay either since I devalued your money, your workers aren't making enough to pay for the increase in widget prices.

And your workers are in debt to their creditors, who feel they need to start collecting before everything crashes so your workers are basically working just to pay for past debts. There is no way they can buy new widgets because noone will give credit to people that are already maxed out and are having a hard time paying their creditors off.

If you go to another company and try to buy their widgets, I totally cut back my widget production to create a widget panic and other more financially stable companies buy those widgets and drive up the price to where you cannot afford them. Plus, I own your debt and I demand payment first, so you aren't getting widgets from anyone else because you have to pay me first.

Then I go to companies that don't have much but are wanting my widgets and I want to strengthen so I sell my widgets dirt cheap to them, so they can use those widgets to develop a better financial footing and replace you as my trading partner. It may take awhile before they can, but I have your money paying for their widgets.

Now, you think someone will back you so that you can buy widgets. Wrong, if anyone comes and makes offers to you I demand that as soon as they pay you I get that money until your debt is paid off.

Or I simply go to other companies and ask them if they want to buy some of your debt from me. They ask what's the selling price I say pennies on the dollar, because I'm not getting paid from you so I may as well make something. These companies jump at it, knowing that the product they buy from you now is dirt cheap because I devalued your money.

And if anyone does decide to sell to you, I tell them I'll pay cash, no debt and buy their widgets. I'll just turn around and hold onto those widgets until your are completely without any purchasing power.

__________________
I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

highthief

Nope, it's economics 101 - the buyer is in control of the transactions, not the seller. It's the whole reason why poor African countries stay poor - someone will always sell you bananas for less than you are paying. When the product gets harder to produce or is rarer, the seller has more power - but that power is finite, especially when you are looking at unskilled textile or light manufacturing production, which remains a Chinese mainstay. As they move into electronics more and more, that gives them more weight - but the ownership of patents and technology remains in the hands of Americans and Japanese, not within a local Chinese maker. China simply cannot, under any circumstances, replace the US as a market. There are a finite number of large, consumer economies in the world - the EU, the US and Japan. Meanwhile, there are dozens of smaller nations eager to expand their economies as China has - no single one of them might have the capacity of a China (though Indonesia would come close).

And Russia is utterly fucked. They should have done as China did - market economy first, then look at democracy down the road.

__________________
Si vis pacem parabellum.