how far is too far? - Page 2 - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

Cynthetiq · 01-11-2006, 05:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paq

and you're right, cyn, very little in your day to day life has changed, as has very little in most americans' day to day lives, but i have to feel for the few that have been unfairly damaged, injured, shuffled about, imprisoned, spied upon, tapped, kept under tabs, etc, mainly bc i don't buy the "You would only be afraid of it if you had something to hide" ideology.

I don't subscribe to that either. I didn't in Singapore, I don't now. Nothing to hide isn't an excuse to me, it is for some.

Sure, I feel bad about those compromised, just like I feel bad for those Japanese american interred during WWII. We didn't inter German Americans.

Seer666 · 01-11-2006, 06:15 AM

A word from one of the Foundin Fathers.
"They who would give up an essential liberty for temporary security, deserve neither liberty or security."
Benjamin Franklin
Enough said.

roachboy · 01-11-2006, 08:53 AM

how strange this thread became. for me at least....

cyn:
1. i didnt say your views were absurd: read what i actually wrote. i was even rather nice about what i said. perhaps there is no point in that. what i said was that you pretense to speak for or about the "general public" or the "average joe" was absurd. and it is.

2. your "theory/practice" or "academic vs. street" knowledge thing made me laugh.
it is always nice to be pigeonholed by your dayjob, isnt it?
and stereotypes sure do simplfy things, dont they?
so i take it that you imagine academic folk have lives that are wholly different from yours, that they have no contact with other folk, that they do not have access to the "authentic" ways of thinking"on the street" that i assume you imagine you have.

this says nothing about academics and quite alot about your viewpoint, cyn: it seems that you do not know any academics as human beings and find the idea of this type of person, whatever that means, kinda intimidating. i dont understand why, but there we are. so you like to think that academics live in special zoos, which it would appear that you are not inclined to visit. fact is that folk who teach or do research go everywhere that you do, cyn: you pass them all the time as you move through the nexus of authenticity that you claim privileged access to---they do most of the same things you do, in more or less the same way you do. they go to the same clubs, talk to parallel communities, are part of these communities--they eat at the same restaurants, go to the same pubs--they live more or less as you do. the only difference really is in how folk think about what they are doing. and even then, academic folk are not of one mind or even of several minds, but are as diverse a population as any other, really, under the veil of credentials.

perhaps this makes you uneasy, so it is better for you to pretend reality is otherwise.
but i have to say that the speed with with you revert to stereotypes and the uses that you make of them in trying to quarantine folk like me in order to valorize yourself really makes me wonder about the valule of anything you say about your travelling experiences, since when one travels, even very slowly, one's prejudices/stereotypes are ven more prominent in shaping information than they would be at home.

but whatever, i am short of time and this does not seem to me to be worth pursuing really. it is just strange and a bit offensive. that's all.

ps: thanks will.....

Elphaba · 01-11-2006, 06:04 PM

One of the NSA employees that contributed to the NYT report, has come forward. Is anyone surprised that he is being painted as a "troublemaker?"

Link

Quote:

NSA Whistleblower Alleges Illegal Spying
By Brian Ross
ABC News

Tuesday 10 January 2006

Former employee admits to being a New York Times source.

Russell Tice, a longtime insider at the National Security Agency, is now a whistleblower the agency would like to keep quiet.

For 20 years, Tice worked in the shadows as he helped the United States spy on other people's conversations around the world.

"I specialized in what's called special access programs," Tice said of his job. "We called them 'black world' programs and operations."

But now, Tice tells ABC News that some of those secret "black world" operations run by the NSA were operated in ways that he believes violated the law. He is prepared to tell Congress all he knows about the alleged wrongdoing in these programs run by the Defense Department and the National Security Agency in the post-9/11 efforts to go after terrorists.

"The mentality was we need to get these guys, and we're going to do whatever it takes to get them," he said.

Tracking Calls

Tice says the technology exists to track and sort through every domestic and international phone call as they are switched through centers, such as one in New York, and to search for key words or phrases that a terrorist might use.

"If you picked the word 'jihad' out of a conversation," Tice said, "the technology exists that you focus in on that conversation, and you pull it out of the system for processing."

According to Tice, intelligence analysts use the information to develop graphs that resemble spiderwebs linking one suspect's phone number to hundreds or even thousands more.

Tice Admits Being a New York Times Source

President Bush has admitted that he gave orders that allowed the NSA to eavesdrop on a small number of Americans without the usual requisite warrants.

But Tice disagrees. He says the number of Americans subject to eavesdropping by the NSA could be in the millions if the full range of secret NSA programs is used.

"That would mean for most Americans that if they conducted, or you know, placed an overseas communication, more than likely they were sucked into that vacuum," Tice said.

The same day The New York Times broke the story of the NSA eavesdropping without warrants, Tice surfaced as a whistleblower in the agency. He told ABC News that he was a source for the Times' reporters. But Tice maintains that his conscience is clear.

"As far as I'm concerned, as long as I don't say anything that's classified, I'm not worried," he said. "We need to clean up the intelligence community. We've had abuses, and they need to be addressed."

The NSA revoked Tice's security clearance in May of last year based on what it called psychological concerns and later dismissed him. Tice calls that bunk and says that's the way the NSA deals with troublemakers and whistleblowers. Today the NSA said it had "no information to provide."

Tice's security clearance was revoked in May, 2004? The NYT continued to sit on this story until recently. That stinks.

samcol · 01-11-2006, 06:29 PM

That's is amazing how they are just doing huge fishing expeditions. He thinks the number of people violated is more likely in the millions.

Sounds like the guy has serious psychological problems.

Too bad he's getting axxed for doing the right thing. He has the duty to uphold the Constitution and if he feels it is being violated then it is his job to come forward.

01-11-2006, 06:15 AM	#42 (permalink)
Seer666 Oh dear God he breeded Location: Arizona	A word from one of the Foundin Fathers. "They who would give up an essential liberty for temporary security, deserve neither liberty or security." Benjamin Franklin Enough said. __________________ Bad spellers of the world untie!!! I am the one you warned me of I seem to have misplaced the bullet with your name on it, but I have a whole box addressed to occupant.

01-11-2006, 08:53 AM	#43 (permalink)
roachboy Super Moderator Location: essex ma	how strange this thread became. for me at least.... cyn: 1. i didnt say your views were absurd: read what i actually wrote. i was even rather nice about what i said. perhaps there is no point in that. what i said was that you pretense to speak for or about the "general public" or the "average joe" was absurd. and it is. 2. your "theory/practice" or "academic vs. street" knowledge thing made me laugh. it is always nice to be pigeonholed by your dayjob, isnt it? and stereotypes sure do simplfy things, dont they? so i take it that you imagine academic folk have lives that are wholly different from yours, that they have no contact with other folk, that they do not have access to the "authentic" ways of thinking"on the street" that i assume you imagine you have. this says nothing about academics and quite alot about your viewpoint, cyn: it seems that you do not know any academics as human beings and find the idea of this type of person, whatever that means, kinda intimidating. i dont understand why, but there we are. so you like to think that academics live in special zoos, which it would appear that you are not inclined to visit. fact is that folk who teach or do research go everywhere that you do, cyn: you pass them all the time as you move through the nexus of authenticity that you claim privileged access to---they do most of the same things you do, in more or less the same way you do. they go to the same clubs, talk to parallel communities, are part of these communities--they eat at the same restaurants, go to the same pubs--they live more or less as you do. the only difference really is in how folk think about what they are doing. and even then, academic folk are not of one mind or even of several minds, but are as diverse a population as any other, really, under the veil of credentials. perhaps this makes you uneasy, so it is better for you to pretend reality is otherwise. but i have to say that the speed with with you revert to stereotypes and the uses that you make of them in trying to quarantine folk like me in order to valorize yourself really makes me wonder about the valule of anything you say about your travelling experiences, since when one travels, even very slowly, one's prejudices/stereotypes are ven more prominent in shaping information than they would be at home. but whatever, i am short of time and this does not seem to me to be worth pursuing really. it is just strange and a bit offensive. that's all. ps: thanks will..... __________________ a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear it make you sick. -kamau brathwaite

01-11-2006, 06:29 PM	#45 (permalink)
samcol Junkie Location: Indiana	That's is amazing how they are just doing huge fishing expeditions. He thinks the number of people violated is more likely in the millions. Sounds like the guy has serious psychological problems. Too bad he's getting axxed for doing the right thing. He has the duty to uphold the Constitution and if he feels it is being violated then it is his job to come forward.